Catholics believe Christians are going to hell and Christians believe Catholics are going to hell, and everyone thinks Buddhists are all going to burn. ;D Who is right?
hahahaha Catholics ARE Christians. A Christian is anyone that believes in Jesus Christ. Catholics are a type of Christian. Just like Protestants, and Orthodox Christians, and Evangelists...etc. Some of these "terms" can be broken down further too. Like Protestants can be broken down into Anglicans, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Calvanists...etc
Epoman: Nobody is saying that we evolved from apes. That is a hugely common misconception. We did however evolve from a similar ancestor, that does not exist anymore. Evolution usually occurs through the splitting of species. So a common ancestor (probably way way way before humans and monkeys or gorillas or whatever) would have been divided somehow, whether it be geographically or through a disease or one of another million possibilities. This separation would have caused this common ancestor to diverge genetically. Now it doesn't work like "the trees were tall, so their babies were born taller"...its actually that due to random mutations, the babies that were born taller were able to survive and carry on their genes... so the same would have happened. Maybe in one part of the world, the smarter "ape-like creatures" survived, whereas in the other part, the more limber, and stronger ape-like creatures survived...and you have to remember this happened over millions of years. We've seen so much evolution over the past couple of hundred years, that this is not that much of a surprise. Look at how tall people are now. Look at skin colours. Look at the ability of humans to learn...
Evolution is a proven fact, through examining genetic codes, and the genomes of animals. Take the influenza virus for example. It evolves every year...
Now I don't know if God exists or not. I think thats the point. We're not supposed to know for sure, we have to have faith. That's why the notion of God is still around, and always will be. If you believe, then hes there. If you don't believe and need proof, then you'll never get it, because you shouldn't need proof to know that he's there. It's the perfect way to make people believe.
I also think that the reason humans need a God, is because it is part of our genetics. That's why everywhere in the world, each society has some sort of God or religion. It's a survival tool. The holes we can't explain, God fills those in for us. It's part of our cognitive behaviour to need a God. It hurts to try and think that out of nothingness, something was created randomly. Or even there never was nothingness, and there has always been something there. Or things like infinite. To think that the universe goes on forever. Mind boggling. But that's because I'm using a human brain to try and grasp these ideas. My brain isn't "hard-wired" to do so. I like the idea of a God starting everything, because it's simple, and it explains everything.
And if I'm going to burn in Hell for thinking this way, well then so be it. I don't believe in a Hell, so I'm not really scared. I think that when I die, theres going to be nothingness. Just like when I go to sleep and can't remember my dreams from the night before. It's as if that time between when I was awake, went to sleep, and then woke up again, never really happened. Or if I drink too much and can't remember what happened the night before ( ;D ) there's a void...a nothingness. Is that depressing? no because I have tomorrow to look forward to. I don't need an eternal afterlife. All I need is to make the most of the time I've got here on Earth.
And as for religion, I like the idea of a church, because it is somewhere I can go, the people are nice, the message is relatively uplifting, and the morals are good. Its a good setting to raise a family, and live an honest and fulfilling life. But that doesn't mean I buy it all. In the back of my head, I try to be a good person because of the whole "heaven and hell" thing, even though I don't really believe it. But what's the harm in that? Although, the main reason I dont break the law, is because I'm afraid of the judicial system, I still have a conscious...where does that come from? probably from my Christian up-bringing. So yeah, I'll take my kids to church...But I'll also teach them the wonders of science...
And as for Jimmy Hoffa, he's probably living it up right now with Tupac, Elvis, and JFK
I think that when I die, theres going to be nothingness. Just like when I go to sleep and can't remember my dreams from the night before. It's as if that time between when I was awake, went to sleep, and then woke up again, never really happened. Or if I drink too much and can't remember what happened the night before ( ;D ) there's a void...a nothingness. Is that depressing?
Yes, I find it very depressing, when you have your first child you will understand, until then you will not, believe me your views on everything change when you become a parent. I would hate to have your beliefs and know that once I or my son dies, we will never see each other again. I like the fact that in my belief I know that even after our deaths my son and I will re-unite. With your beliefs you will NEVER know the secrets of the universe, you will not be able to ask questions that have pondered man since the the beginning of time and get factual answers. In my belief I will be able to get answers to all my questions.
With your belief you have EVERYTHING to lose. If you are wrong you will go to hell, If you are right then you have lost nothing. But in my belief I have everything to gain, If I am correct I have a paradise to look forward to when I die, if I am wrong then I have lost NOTHING, I will simple cease to exist and be void. Think about it for a second. If there is a GOD (which obviously I believe there is) then by you not having faith, and believing in evolution then you are basically denouncing GOD and therefor forsaking him. Which will not allow you to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Maybe it was God that "snapped his fingers" and made the first cell by forcing a few key nutrients to work together in a cycle? I dunno, I wasn't there. But I know that didn't make the world as we know it today, in 7 days...
Ok yeah...I'll buy that. (I also like the fact that you accept that the Bible can't be taken 100% literally)
But I'll also take it one step further.
Maybe God did take millions of "our years" to do these things...but maybe he didn't just snap his fingers and the animals and plants...etc popped up. Maybe he was the cause of random genetic mutations that caused these things to evolve over this time.
Land animals were before birds though...but now we're getting picky ;D
So yeah, I'll agree with you on that, but I won't agree with the fact that these things just "poof" out of nowhere were on Earth.
Catholics believe Christians are going to hell and Christians believe Catholics are going to hell, and everyone thinks Buddhists are all going to burn. ;D Who is right?
At least you have it right. There is a difference between Catholics and Christians. Most people think they are the same. That is what I didn't like about the Davenci Code (the book). It kept referring to Catholics and Christians as if they were one. NOT! :P I am a Born Again Christian and I don't need to go through any Priest to talk to God.
Catholics are Christians, they are the original Christian church. Everything else (every other Christian denomination anyway) has been a spin-off from Catholicism. Catholics don't think non-Catholics are going to hell. Actually, they teach that we can't and shouldn't judge who we think is going to hell.
Catholics are Christians, they are the original Christian church. Everything else (every other Christian denomination anyway) has been a spin-off from Catholicism. Catholics don't think non-Catholics are going to hell. Actually, they teach that we can't and shouldn't judge who we think is going to hell.
Okay, I'm a Christian, so therefore I'm a Catholic? Mormons think they are Christians too, so I guess I'm a Mormon now too.
Do Catholics read the bible?
Catholics are Christians, they are the original Christian church. Everything else (every other Christian denomination anyway) has been a spin-off from Catholicism. Catholics don't think non-Catholics are going to hell. Actually, they teach that we can't and shouldn't judge who we think is going to hell.
Okay, I'm a Christian, so therefore I'm a Catholic? Mormons think they are Christians too, so I guess I'm a Mormon now too.
Do Catholics read the bible?
Do Catholics read the Bible? - Uh, YEAH! The Catholic Bible actually has more books than the Protestant Bible b/c when the Reformation and stuff was going on, if a book was not particularly favored by the public, or the leaders didn't want to follow or adhere to that part anymore, they left it out. At mass, we read part of the Bible every time. It's a 3 yr cycle, so at the end of 3 yrs, we will have read the whole Bible except for a few small parts.
Christian = Catholic? - Well Catholics are Christian. Protestants don't believe everything the CC teaches so no, they are not Catholics. And I don't THINK I am a Christian - I KNOW I am.
Catholics are Christians, they are the original Christian church. Everything else (every other Christian denomination anyway) has been a spin-off from Catholicism. Catholics don't think non-Catholics are going to hell. Actually, they teach that we can't and shouldn't judge who we think is going to hell.
Okay, I'm a Christian, so therefore I'm a Catholic? Mormons think they are Christians too, so I guess I'm a Mormon now too.
Do Catholics read the bible?
Do Catholics read the Bible? - Uh, YEAH! The Catholic Bible actually has more books than the Protestant Bible b/c when the Reformation and stuff was going on, if a book was not particularly favored by the public, or the leaders didn't want to follow or adhere to that part anymore, they left it out. At mass, we read part of the Bible every time. It's a 3 yr cycle, so at the end of 3 yrs, we will have read the whole Bible except for a few small parts.
Christian = Catholic? - Well Catholics are Christian. Protestants don't believe everything the CC teaches so no, they are not Catholics. And I don't THINK I am a Christian - I KNOW I am.
Wait, so your saying your a Christian Catholic? I was raised in Christian school and I have never heard of Christian Catholics. But I guess hyperlite in his last post summed it up best. I by the way am Protestant and I only read the King James Version. I personally hate all these new wave bibles that make it easier for the reader to understand, The Psalms just don't sound as beautiful in those new bibles.
- Epoman
I think we are all One People, no matter what the color or creed. We are all human beings.
I think prayers work miracles. That much good being sent as thought has to do some good to the person being prayed about.
hahaha you don't get it...
Catholics are Christians. Christians aren't necessarily Catholics.
Its like Americans are North Americans. But North Americans aren't necessarily Americans.
Christianity is a religion. Catholocism is a denomination of that religion.
Mormons are Christians too.
Yes Catholics read the Bible.
I have come to believe that God or the Supreme Being is whatever you believe it to be.
God can be vengeful. I was brought up to see God this way.
God can be Light. I see God this way now
I can create light within myself and I can begin to create Light for the world to use.
I can search for truth all by myself and do NOT need a preacher or priest to tell me what or who to believe in.
I think all major religions, not denominations, have one belief system as a basis, all believe in One God.
I think we are all One People, no matter what the color or creed. We are all human beings.
I believe that if you believe in hell you might go there. so I do not believe God would send me to a hellish hot place. (Although I do live in Southern California) >:D
I do believe in Angels, guardian angels. I had an experience with one once.
I think prayers work miracles. That much good being sent as thought has to do some good to the person being prayed about.
I know I "dance in the fire" we call life each and every day!
Katherine
if catholics and protestants were both Christians, why were hundreds of Christian protestants martyred for speaking the truth of the bible by the catholic church, this is historical fact, surely the lovely protestants would have obeyed God and bowed to the pope.
This is SO Funny. Take this statement and show it to ANY pastor of a Baptist, Methodist, or non-denominational church and let him enlighten you. ;)
Mine got suck 3 posts back. I was writing it and got side-tracked. :-*
Sara Just asking, who is the pope, to the catholic,
did mary have children after Jesus.
why is the pope revered when Jesus said you shall worship the Lord God and Him ONLY you shall serve.
If the catholic church was really in line with the bible surely the pope would kick out all the idolatry especially if it is not a catholic teaching and as you put it the icing on the cake.
In the saying of the mass the true catholic church teaching that the body of Christ is sacrificed every mass, thus contradicting the true sacrifice of Christ once for all to take away mans Sin.
also bowing down to the wafer, Jesus never asked us in the bible to bow down to a wafer. the list goes on and on, and I dont doubt there are true christians amoung the catholic congregations but hopefully they will be trying to snatch others from the fire.
God hates idolatry wether its in the protestant church or the catholiic church, God says He will not give His glory to another. He also says do not make for yourselves any graven images .....
So who is the pope to the average catholic, why do they kiss His ring, Who is the Head of the church according to the bible....
if catholics and protestants were both christians, why were hundreds of christian protestants martyred for speaking the truth of the bible by the catholic church, this is historical fact, surely the lovely protestants would have obeyed God and bowed to the pope.
Sara I am not saying you bow to the pope or do any of these things , but as the bible says its idolatry and sin, How can we justiify the catholic church when so much they do and teach is extra biblical,
I know you can go into one catholic church and they truly serve God and love Him, and into another which is idolatrous the same is true with the protestants..
So Im not really judging just pointing out some facts.
Sara Wrote:
Just as you might ask a friend or relative to pray for you in your time of need, we ask the same of Mary.
WHAT? READ what you wrote Sara and tell me this is Biblical! The devotion of Mary in the early church was started to appease those in the church who were worshiping the goddess Diana. The "Holy Day" worshiping Mary in August is a new concept.
How can you ask a dead person to pray for you?
EPOMAN,
This is one of the reasons that I love your moderation of this forum. You really know how to stir up the sh*t!
FYI- I vote a resounding YES.
Someday I'll e-mail you my stories of patients I've cared for and their near death experiences.(Six saw heaven, one was sure that he saw hell!)
Carry on the good work!
I can't really speak for Sara, but I think she meant, as a Christian you should know that when you die, your "soul" doesnt die. Just your body...
the roman cathollic church not the catholic churches so much do indeed class the pope as God on earth, they do teach that the pope is the head of the church not Christ.
in any true Christian church the pastor had better be putting Christ as the head of the church. and If anyone reveres Him a man. Hed better given the person some correction, as Christ alone is worthy of our honour and praise
rosary beads are also used in islam, and other religions they are not a catholic thing they were taken from another religion, another form of idol worship.
you should care whether or not mary had kids after Jesus or not because anyone who knows God should have a love of the truth, the Bible clearly states Jesus had brothers in many places. the reason this is important, is because by turning her into the ever blessed mary, they have set her up as an idol. the catholic church placed mary officially as the queen of Heaven, thats right She is worshipped as a God alongside Jesus. she is named by the official catholic church as the co- redemptress ie they say she redeems you from your sins along side Jesus ..
the split ie the reformation between catholic church and protestant was not about the protestants not submitting to the catholic church, it was over whether or not we are saved by the finished work of Christ or by works, ie praying hail marys, doing your rosarys, buying relics, bits of dead holy men in boxes.
bowing to the statues of various dead saints. now that is idolatry and that I am afraid is the historical history of the catholic church, its foundation if you like, is killing people men and women who believed in the truth of the bible as apposed to the teachings of POPE.
As for pope jp being a good dude, yes he done some good things, He worked on some reconcilliation between the catholics and the Jews, and a few other things but the throne He sat on bore an upside down cross. ??? ??? a symbol of satanism.
see pope jp throne on google..
I have been hesitating getting involved in this exchange. What I do know is that there is too much in this that is from tradition and not from the Bible. God left us the Bible - there is no need for man to add other things. Where will the adding end?
Jesus Himself stopped the crowd from giving His mother special honour. What is our justification for doing that?
Jesus told the Pharisees "You teach for commandments of God the traditions of man" and I see too much of that.
I don't need arguements for and against God to persuade me one way or another, all I do is open my eyes each day and God reveals himself.
Nothing so complex as life on earth can possible happen by chance :)
I don't need arguments for and against God to persuade me one way or another, all I do is open my eyes each day and God reveals himself.
Nothing so complex as life on earth can possible happen by chance :)
VERY WELL SAID! :)
- Epoman
Nina, from what I understand it was Saturday (which is why Jews have their religious observation on Saturday) but the Christian Church changed it to Sunday after/in respect of Jesus. Don't know when that happened though.
What I've heard time and time again, is it doesn't get you to heaven if you go to church on Saturday or Sunday. It is admitting you are a sinner and asking God into your heart that saves you.I am in total agreement.
LMAO @ Epoman, never thought of it that way, i like all the replies i got, they all make sense and have made me feel a little more comfortable with my thoughts....THANKS EVERYONE!!!
I would agree there is a God.
However the bibles view is corrupt and severely flawed and flat out wrong in places IMO.
Not trying to be confrontational, but on what are you basing that opinion? Do you have something to compare it with to know that it is corrupt and severely flawed? Could you share one of those flat-out-wrong places?
The interesting thing is that if you check most of the aboriginal people around the world, they all have a story about the beginning of the world that has striking similarities with the Genesis version.
You see, we believe that the men who wrote the Bible were inspired of God. and if is He is God, worth anything, how hard would it be to make sure that the record that He has left for man is as the orange ad says 'simply unfooled around with'?
I absolutely believe in God. I believe in Jesus. The things I'm not sure about is going to church.
I know what the bible says about churches and tithing but I think bibles are open for interpretation.
I believe that I can work 7 days a week if I need to to keep a roof over my family's head.
The church only wants my money.
It's how you live your life, as long as what you do is out of love and not hate.
You can be a godly person without going to church. Where two or more are gathered in his name is acceptable.
So here I go just speaking my mind...
Is there a god? If you are on dialysis you'd better be praying to him alot. I think some others offered some conclusive proof in earlier posts. Look at yourselves and the beauty all around you. That didn't happen by accident. Then look at the rest of the universe. As far as we can tell it is completely barren. Back to the question and there is no doubt in my mind about the answer.
Is there a god? If you are on dialysis you'd better be praying to him alot. I think some others offered some conclusive proof in earlier posts. Look at yourselves and the beauty all around you. That didn't happen by accident. Then look at the rest of the universe. As far as we can tell it is completely barren. Back to the question and there is no doubt in my mind about the answer.
Yeah but as far as we can tell is really nothing at all...If the Universe is infinite then really we can only see/detect " x approaching 0 %" of the universe...not really much to base a prediction of being alone (or not alone) in the universe on.
It would be like living in Africa 6000 years ago and saying that we are alone on Earth...
I believe in GOD and ALIENS, there I said it. >:D :P
I believe in GOD and ALIENS, there I said it. >:D :P
Oh I hope you won't ever say you think God IS an alien (I read that somewhere once in a published article! ::) )
I believe in GOD and ALIENS, there I said it. >:D :P
Oh I hope you won't ever say you think God IS an alien (I read that somewhere once in a published article! ::) )
No, that's why I said "AND". But if you define the word "Alien: a form of life assumed to exist outside the Earth or its atmosphere" I don't believe GOD lives on earth soooooo, you could call GOD an alien. BUT no, I do not believe GOD is an alien in your use of the word.
Read all of this one, it is interesting!! Read down to the very bottom highlighted in green. You don't want to miss this!!
VERY INTERESTING-
1. The Garden of Eden was in Iraq.
2. Mesopotamia, which is now Iraq, was the cradle of civilization!
3. Noah built the ark in Iraq.
4. The Tower of Babel was in Iraq
5. Abraham was from Ur, which is in Southern Iraq!
6. Isaac's wife Rebekah is from Nahor, which is in Iraq!
7. Jacob met Rachel in Iraq.
8. Jonah preached in Nineveh - which is in Iraq.
9. Assyria, which is in Iraq, conquered the ten tribes of Israel.
10. Amos cried out in Iraq!
11. Babylon, which is in Iraq, destroyed Jerusalem.
12. Daniel was in the lion's den in Iraq!
13. Belshazzar, the King of Babylon saw the "writing on the wall" in Iraq.
14. Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon, carried the Jews captive into Iraq.
15. Ezekiel preached in Iraq.
16. The wise men were from Iraq
17. Peter preached in Iraq.
18. The "Empire of Man" described in Revelation is called Babylon, which was a city in Iraq!
And you have probably seen this one. Israel is the nation most often mentioned in the Bible. But do you know which nation is second? It is Iraq! However, that is not the name that is used in the Bible. The names used in the Bible are Babylon, Land of Shinar, and Mesopotamia. The word Mesopotamia means between the two rivers, more exactly between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. The name Iraq, means country with deep roots.
Indeed Iraq is a country with deep roots and is a very significant country in the Bible.
No other nation, except Israel, has more history and prophecy associated it than Iraq.
And also, This is something to think about! Since America is typically represented by an eagle. Saddam should have read up on his Muslim passages...
The following verse is from the Koran, (the Islamic Bible)
Koran (9:11 ) - For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah; and there was peace.
(Note the verse number!) Hmmmmmmm?!
That brings up an interesting thought. My friend Adrian just came by today and was talking to me about religion. He isn't Catholic like me (I am not sure what he is) but lately he has been telling me that he is doubting the authenticity of the Bible. Also there was a guy once on IMVU who was trying to tell me that the Toran is more accurate than the Bible since the Bible has been changed over the years and throughout generations and translations.
Anyone have any input on this? I have been doing a lot of thinking about this.
That brings up an interesting thought. My friend Adrian just came by today and was talking to me about religion. He isn't Catholic like me (I am not sure what he is) but lately he has been telling me that he is doubting the authenticity of the Bible. Also there was a guy once on IMVU who was trying to tell me that the Toran is more accurate than the Bible since the Bible has been changed over the years and throughout generations and translations.
Anyone have any input on this? I have been doing a lot of thinking about this.
Yeah thanks, but lets keep this ON-TOPIC ok? ::) If you want a "911" thread or a "thread talking about Iraqs place in biblical history" then start a NEW thread. This is about "Is there a GOD" Do you enjoy taking my threads off-topic? ::)
That brings up an interesting thought. My friend Adrian just came by today and was talking to me about religion. He isn't Catholic like me (I am not sure what he is) but lately he has been telling me that he is doubting the authenticity of the Bible. Also there was a guy once on IMVU who was trying to tell me that the Toran is more accurate than the Bible since the Bible has been changed over the years and throughout generations and translations.
Anyone have any input on this? I have been doing a lot of thinking about this.
You may doubt the authenticity of the facts... but can you doubt the truthfulness that lies in the teachings of love, forgiveness, peace, and hope? I really feel that those aspects are what we should focus on in the Bible, instead of spending all this time worrying about whether it was total truth or not... will we ever truly know? I guess I believe in God not because the dates, etc. in the Bible are all correct, but the lessons it teaches, and how those lessons have allowed me to see the miracles that have happened throughout my life.
Yeah thanks, but lets keep this ON-TOPIC ok? ::) If you want a "911" thread or a "thread talking about Iraqs place in biblical history" then start a NEW thread. This is about "Is there a GOD" Do you enjoy taking my threads off-topic? ::)
No problem Epoman. Ummm, I thought this was relevant to the topic at hand and this IS the off-topic section is it not? We are talking about the existence of god and the bible as part of the story of god. Sorry if you felt I took this off topic but I and Angie thought otherwise.
And no, I don't enjoy taking your threads off topic. You just think I am the only one doing it :(
That brings up an interesting thought. My friend Adrian just came by today and was talking to me about religion. He isn't Catholic like me (I am not sure what he is) but lately he has been telling me that he is doubting the authenticity of the Bible. Also there was a guy once on IMVU who was trying to tell me that the Toran is more accurate than the Bible since the Bible has been changed over the years and throughout generations and translations.
Anyone have any input on this? I have been doing a lot of thinking about this.
You may doubt the authenticity of the facts... but can you doubt the truthfulness that lies in the teachings of love, forgiveness, peace, and hope? I really feel that those aspects are what we should focus on in the Bible, instead of spending all this time worrying about whether it was total truth or not... will we ever truly know? I guess I believe in God not because the dates, etc. in the Bible are all correct, but the lessons it teaches, and how those lessons have allowed me to see the miracles that have happened throughout my life. (hope this brings it a little back on topic, Epoman)
Yeah .. I believe in God. So who else does?
And also, This is something to think about![/color] Since America is typically represented by an eagle. Saddam should have read up on his Muslim passages...
The following verse is from the Koran, (the Islamic Bible)
Koran (9:11 ) - For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah; and there was peace.
(Note the verse number!) Hmmmmmmm?!
uh ... I believe in God. I just told Sandman to post that because I thought the relevance of the Bible relating to actual places in the world proves .. bah forget it ...
Yeah .. I believe in God. So who else does?
I certainly believe there is a God.
He is so alive and real to me that you just could not prove to
me that there is not.
I believe that Jesus is my Lord and Savior. I believe he died so that I may live. I have no doubt in my mind that He exists and that He has my back. I also believe that He has given me the intelligence to not get into heated debates such as this. I cannot PROVE to any of you that God exists. You cannot PROVE to me that He does not.AMEN and AMEN!!
Case closed. ;) ;) ;) ;)
As for the Catholic church, I wonder if the millions they spend protecting their ministry would be much more effective feeding the poor..
(not going to mention the sex abuse)
Millions to pay for Vatican city... lawsuits... which I agree COULD have been used to help the needy
Deacon
Whatever. This just shows me you either really don't know how much good the Catholic Church does, or you don't care to open your eyes to see it.
Is there a God? Hold a newborn baby, stand at the edge of the ocean, walk thru the stillness of the forest, look upward on a starry night, look at all the wonders of our world and be awed. Yes, their is suffering and pain in our world. But, this all wasn't an accident. Evolution, yes that is also part of our world. Organized religions do the best they can, but they are run by man and there will be mistakes. I can't imagine where you turn to if you do not believe there is a higher power.
:bump; :popcorn; >:D
:bump; :popcorn; >:D
Must you?
If you are going to throw rocks at God, make sure you throw the pretty ones!
I believe in God the Father. He sent His only begotten Son, Jesus, to die for our sins. There is no need for argument because God is bigger than all of us and He can defend Himself. I don't argue over God. I just tell people to ask God to show them the truth and believe me He will if you really want the truth. I'm a born again Christian and judge no man. God's word says don't judge for you shall be judged as you judged. Pray for everyone, believer or not. God is my Lord and Savior and no one can take that away from me!!!! :2thumbsup; :2thumbsup;Amen, and amen, and amen!!
God set the world in motion - man has done most of the damage all by himself. We aren't being punished or tested. Things happen. I have a friend that keeps praying that my kidneys will just start working. I can't make her understand that it doesn't really work that way. Bad things happen to good people, bad people aren't always punished - that is just life. A 31 yr old guy that I had in a youth group as a teenager died last week of cancer. Great kid - never caused trouble, always did the right thing. But, God didn't do this or let it happen --- it happens. I don't understand why --- but I also can't blame God for everything. I also feel we need to take responsibility for most of what happens in our lives. And this is coming from someone who has always had church has a huge part of my life - I belief firmly in my faith. God expects me to do the best that I can with the life He has given me. Now I just feel like I am preaching!!!! Sorry - I will step down off of my soapbox!
I have always believed in God, and I excepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour seven years ago. If it hadn't been for my faith in God, I would have given up and let myself die the day I was told I had to go on dialysis. God has given me peace (even though I still sometimes have emotional turmoil), He has put a lot of WONDERFUL people in my life, including most of the people on this forum, and I thank Him for the knowledge and wisdom that He gave the inventors of that machine that keeps me alive.
Adam
I believe in God and I have accepted Him as my personal savior. That does not take away all of my problems but I know that God will be with me through the tough times and He will not give me more to bear than what I can handle. Sometimes the days seem hard but I know He has a plan for my future. :2thumbsup;
Why does "God" give us problems? How does one know "God" has "a plan" for said persons future? I can't see anybody planning my future but myself. Is it a requirement that one must attend a church in order to know about this "plan"? Is it the power of "God" or the power of the human mind and body that give us the strength? What about those who can't handle health issues (any issue for that matter) and loose the fight for life? Is that "God's plan" for them? If I believed in an ice cream cone and really believed my ice cream cone would help me overcome my troubles then it would. Does that make "God" an ice cream cone?
Why does "God" give us problems? How does one know "God" has "a plan" for said persons future? I can't see anybody planning my future but myself. Is it a requirement that one must attend a church in order to know about this "plan"? Is it the power of "God" or the power of the human mind and body that give us the strength? What about those who can't handle health issues (any issue for that matter) and loose the fight for life? Is that "God's plan" for them? If I believed in an ice cream cone and really believed my ice cream cone would help me overcome my troubles then it would. Does that make "God" an ice cream cone?
It is what it is.
The Bible is the word of God translated by MAN. God did not write the book. Just as Allah did not write the Quran (Koran). And G-d did not write the Torah. They're all just translations and the MEN who write them decide what we need to know.
These are all just stories, just as the Romans and Greeks had their gods before Christianity and Islam. God is real. The books, well, you can't believe everything you read.
Being a Christian is not about a church building, going to church,I could not have expressed it any better myself. This is it, folks!! The real deal!
singing in the choir or being good, it is about a relationship with the Lord
Himself, believing in Him, putting Him first, placing your hope and trust and finding your strength
and guidance in Him. Not something temporary. When I leave here I will not die, but be moving. Only the Lord can give
me that hope. He will meet me on the other side. as will my husband, son, 2 brothers and parents and others.
An ice cream cone could not do that for me.
The Bible is not merely a book of stories written by men. It is
inspired by God. He is so very real to me that no one could ever prove to me that
there is not a God.
I am still pitching rocks at God over here.
Interesting-- God didn't cause our illnesses -- why should someone be made at Him? This is life -- the good, the bad and the ugly.It makes us "feel" better to have someone, anyone to blame.
I am just curious, what do you mean by that? Are you angry with him?
I am still pitching rocks at God over here.
I am still pitching rocks at God over here.
Interesting thread. Very interesting indeed. It is MY belief that the only thing that organized religion succeeds in doing is pitting people against one another...as is evident here. I've never been known to back down from a great religious debate. Unfortunately, the only definitive answer I ever get receive from a "Christian," "Catholic," "Protestant," "Mormon," etc, etc, etc when I ask them to explain why God would allow a 2 year old child to be sexually tortured, mutilated and then murdered or, why would a Catholic Priest molest a young boy or little girl (or, in some cases both) and not only NOT be held accountable but, protected by the church is "We all have free will" or, "God doesn't condone that behavior" or, "We are all sinners." You get the message!
That being the case, I think I'll stick to my standard mantra..."Thank God I'm An Atheist!"
When it comes to things that man/woman could possibly control it is always said that they are to blame, when it is something out of man's control it is said that it is/was "God's" will. Is that strange to anyone?
What is the general consensus on "hell"? Who is it that goes there exactly?
But...God has the power to protect that child. I don't! You can be assured, if I did...I would. Bottom line...God gets all of the glory but none of the blame.Interesting thread. Very interesting indeed. It is MY belief that the only thing that organized religion succeeds in doing is pitting people against one another...as is evident here. I've never been known to back down from a great religious debate. Unfortunately, the only definitive answer I ever get receive from a "Christian," "Catholic," "Protestant," "Mormon," etc, etc, etc when I ask them to explain why God would allow a 2 year old child to be sexually tortured, mutilated and then murdered or, why would a Catholic Priest molest a young boy or little girl (or, in some cases both) and not only NOT be held accountable but, protected by the church is "We all have free will" or, "God doesn't condone that behavior" or, "We are all sinners." You get the message!
That being the case, I think I'll stick to my standard mantra..."Thank God I'm An Atheist!"
God no more "allowed" it to happen than you did.
But...God has the power to protect that child. I don't! You can be assured, if I did...I would. Bottom line...God gets all of the glory but none of the blame.
There ya go with that "free will" crap! LOLBut...God has the power to protect that child. I don't! You can be assured, if I did...I would. Bottom line...God gets all of the glory but none of the blame.
Because one doesn't use said power in all cases that means they allowed it? Sorry it doesn't work that way anymore since Adam and Eve days. It was mankind that set itself down this path and therefore we must take good with the bad.
You want to hold God accountable for mankind's actions on earth, sorry but mankind is responsible for mankind's actions on earth. God will hold them accountable in his realm when the time comes.
There ya go with that "free will" crap! LOL
BigSky: ? I'm not sure I understand your question. But, I want to be clear about this; I believe that we are all responsible for our own actions. And, just once I would like an answer to my question that DOES NOT include the phrase "free will." I think that is a cop out answer for ""I don't know!"There ya go with that "free will" crap! LOL
Really now. Is it your claim you and no one else is responsible for their actions they commit?
God - your higher power of choice - put it all in motion. Yes, there are people that believe things are " God's will"-- I don't. Things happen. But really, do you watch the sun rise, sit and be in awe of the ocean, climb a mountain top, feel the love of a child, and then marvel at the strength of a storm and look for the rainbow -- and think it just happens? I have more than enough reasons to not believe in God-- horrible things happened to me as a child, lost many important people in my life; but for some reason, never thought God was doing this do me. I am educated, well-read, well-traveled and find strength in sitting in a chapel, a temple, gazing at Buddah, and I find strength all of nature around me. This is an interesting thread. I love to hear what other people do or don't believe in. For me, I find comfort in having a "place" to go to with my fears and my joys.As do I, Paris. And that place is my family & friends. Up to this point I have had a WONDERFUL life full of love, laughter, comfort, great friends and great health. I have also had hard times too! But, I didn't pray to anyone or anything to help me through them. Nor, have I ever given thanks anyone or anything for giving me what I have. I work hard to maintain healthy relationships and I believe that "what goes around, comes around." That is why I try to be the best person that I can be. Not because a book or a clergyman tells me that I should, but because somehow, inside I just know that's the right thing to do. And because I know that I can only expect to be treated the same as I treat others. Common sense is all it is. These are my beliefs...and I'm stickin' to em! LOL Thanks for listening.
God - your higher power of choice - put it all in motion. Yes, there are people that believe things are " God's will"-- I don't. Things happen. But really, do you watch the sun rise, sit and be in awe of the ocean, climb a mountain top, feel the love of a child, and then marvel at the strength of a storm and look for the rainbow -- and think it just happens? I have more than enough reasons to not believe in God-- horrible things happened to me as a child, lost many important people in my life; but for some reason, never thought God was doing this do me. I am educated, well-read, well-traveled and find strength in sitting in a chapel, a temple, gazing at Buddah, and I find strength all of nature around me. This is an interesting thread. I love to hear what other people do or don't believe in. For me, I find comfort in having a "place" to go to with my fears and my joys.Sunrise, ocean, mountain top, love of a child, strength of a storm, rainbow. So, what you're saying is God is nature? Assuming your answer is yes, then GOD wiped out a quarter of a million people in a tsunami in December, 2005. Should we marvel at that? Goes back to my question, why does God get all the glory, but never the blame?
BigSky: ? I'm not sure I understand your question. But, I want to be clear about this; I believe that we are all responsible for our own actions. And, just once I would like an answer to my question that DOES NOT include the phrase "free will." I think that is a cop out answer for ""I don't know!"
Interesting - your first two posts were full of compassion, and that you are donating a kidney shows your care for your fellow man. Then, the rest of the posts are bashing God and those who believe in a higher power. Funny thing is -- we are the ones with kidney failure. Maybe when you are the one going thru hell, you may need to reach out for something else. I have the most supportive family and friends. I lead my life with dignity and feel I must give back to those around me. I hope you never have these trials to face, but I am grateful for my spiritual side to help me through those dark nights when nothing is going right. Do not confuse fundimentalist with all believers. I am not waiting for God to make my kidneys to start functioning again. I am grateful for the miracle of doctors and medicines. I have a friend that thinks if I had a laying of hands service, my kidneys could work again. There are so many different levels of beliefs.Paris, for the record...I am not "BASHING" anybody. I have 2 daughters, a son in law, 3 grandchildren, 9 nieces, 7 nephews and countless friends who are believers. They offer thanks to God before a meal. When they do, I respectfully bow my head and fold my hands. I read bible stories to my grandchildren and get on my knees with them when they say their prayers at night. I adopt a needy family from my neighborhood church at holiday time and donate toys, clothes and money! I tell you this not for a pat on the back, but to hopefully give you a little glimpse into my character. I'm not out there on a pulpit trying to get believers to "not believe." I'm just waiting for someone to come up with some different answers. So, please don't misstate my intent here.
Anyway, hope your day is full of goodness and happiness. :thumbdown;
I can only say that walking through hell is an interesting walk. If God has handed me all of this crap to deal with, then I want my money back!
Sorry, I am full of pain right now and maybe things came out wrong. I hurt too much to walk, but somehow must continue to work, so come home in tears. Today we got the call that if my husband wants to see his sister before she dies, he needs to come immediately. She has had breast cancer for 3 years and lived with so much grace though everything. It is has gone to her brain, spine, liver and she is on morphine drip round the clock. Hospice says it is only days. She is a wonderful person and has been a real trooper, never giving up and always looking forward. Today is a hard day.:grouphug; You and your family are in my thoughts!
WOULDN'T EPOMAN HAVE LOVED ALL THESE POSTS!!!! He would be eating :popcorn;, drinking :beer1; and waiting for the boxing gloves to come off!!! Miss you, Epoman!!!!
Sorry, I am full of pain right now and maybe things came out wrong. I hurt too much to walk, but somehow must continue to work, so come home in tears. Today we got the call that if my husband wants to see his sister before she dies, he needs to come immediately. She has had breast cancer for 3 years and lived with so much grace though everything. It is has gone to her brain, spine, liver and she is on morphine drip round the clock. Hospice says it is only days. She is a wonderful person and has been a real trooper, never giving up and always looking forward. Today is a hard day.
WOULDN'T EPOMAN HAVE LOVED ALL THESE POSTS!!!! He would be eating :popcorn;, drinking :beer1; and waiting for the boxing gloves to come off!!! Miss you, Epoman!!!!
While I don't believe that God created this earth (there are way too many scientific discoveries to prove this), I do believe he is all around and watches over us. I believe in miracles. I believe he gives us challenges to see how we will deal with things. I believe that if we lead a good life, peace will find us when we die. Is there a heaven or hell? Who knows, but i do feel that there is something else beyond death. I like to think that we will see our loved ones who have already passed and they will welcome us with open arms. Nobody knows what will happen, that is the beauty and mystery of it all.
While I don't believe that God created this earth (there are way too many scientific discoveries to prove this), I do believe he is all around and watches over us. I believe in miracles. I believe he gives us challenges to see how we will deal with things. I believe that if we lead a good life, peace will find us when we die. Is there a heaven or hell? Who knows, but i do feel that there is something else beyond death. I like to think that we will see our loved ones who have already passed and they will welcome us with open arms. Nobody knows what will happen, that is the beauty and mystery of it all.
I think it's interesting that you feel God is capable of some things but not others. Seems contradictory to me. (No disrespect, I realize that's your opinion :))
I like the way Epoman described God's creating of the Earth. How 1 day could mean 1 million years, not 24 hours... and so on. Makes more sense and fits the science into it all.
So, do you believe that there was an Adam & Eve?
jesus the christ is the potential we all have within us, to live and be spiritual in this cold, violent world. he did not exist historically,
ancient 'history' WAS a myth! since the dark ages, priests and other manipulators have purposely changed the myths into 'history' for their own benefit.
if christ actually existed as most believe, then how about odin, hercules, zues and all of the gods?
silly. if you can't read joseph campbell, or at least tom harpur, you will not see the truth and importance of mythology.
its more childish to believe that myths are history.
kind of like believing in fairy tales.
;)
its more childish to believe that myths are history.
kind of like believing in fairy tales.
;)
Not true.
Many myths actually are history.
Many in the science community once held that many of the American Indians history was merely myths not actual history. More and more they are finding out these "alleged myths" actually are history.
you can't just adopt a nice-sounding set of beliefs and expect to have an easy ride.
it has never worked before, and it never will.
well said, hawkeye, but i don't see that is has worked very well, at least, not for the purpose of attaining a peaceful world of united souls, but other than that, you write with clarity and intelligence. thanks!
love
~LL~
you mean like the 'sleeping giant' in thunder bay, ontario? the mountain range that the natives say is really 'manitou' (god) who laid down out of disgust that the tribes would not stop fighting?
get real.
i lived in thunder bay, where the sleeping giant rests, and had many ojibway friends. to the ojibway, 'manitou' is the closest thing to 'god' that they have in their tradition.
I leave the boards for a couple of months, come back, and this thread is still going. Almost goes to show you that no matter how long you argue about people's "beliefs" its impossible to convince everyone. I'm sure there are people out there who still believe that the Earth is flat...
THE TWO WOLVES
One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people.
He said "My son, the battle is between two "wolves" inside us all.
one is EVIL
It is anger, envy, jealosusy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, and superiority, and ego.
The other is GOOD.
It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his granfather.
"WHICH WOLF WINS?"
The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."
Personally I hear people write things off as God's will whenever they can't understand it (my disease in particular).
I would rather be judged by those who know me and the good works I do.
I truly believe in life before death.
It makes me sad that those who don't know me think that I must be a bad person since I live a full and happy life without a belief in any god. I'm not evil or immoral. But many prejudge me as a secular humanist. I am a celebrant and perform secular marriages and funerals for others who live as I do.
I only believe in one fewer god than most of the rest of society. Nobody thinks it is absurd not to believe in Zeus or Thor. I don't believe in them either.
I sport a bumper sticker on my car that says:
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. ~ Thomas Paine
Aleta
And who is acting more morally: the person who fears consequences in some afterlife for bad behavior, or the person who believes that acting compassionately is its own reward? Many people of faith think that those without it will be running rampant, raping and pillaging. If faith is the only thing keeping them from doing so, I surely don't want them to lose their beliefs.
Yes, there is a God...and Yes all prayers are answered.
Sometimes...the answer is NO.
Wow... finally a subject that we do have experts on... How exactly did you all get those answers for sure? Either way, I mean.
the thing i've never been able to get a decent answer from the 'faithful' is;
the beliefs that have grown from the bible were created and written by people many centuries ago. in those times the common belief regarding the shape of our planet was that the earth was believed to be flat. it was also believed that if one travelled far enough, they would fall off of the edge of the earth and be consumed by demons. people of those times were not aware of the fact that bathing for cleanliness could actually prolong your life. my question is; how could a people that believed these things possibly know how the universe was created and who did it? seems to me that if you were ignorant about the very ground you walked on, you wouldn't have much of a chance when it came to perceiving ultimate reality.
just wonderin'...
:guitar:
the thing i've never been able to get a decent answer from the 'faithful' is;
the beliefs that have grown from the bible were created and written by people many centuries ago. in those times the common belief regarding the shape of our planet was that the earth was believed to be flat. it was also believed that if one travelled far enough, they would fall off of the edge of the earth and be consumed by demons. people of those times were not aware of the fact that bathing for cleanliness could actually prolong your life. my question is; how could a people that believed these things possibly know how the universe was created and who did it? seems to me that if you were ignorant about the very ground you walked on, you wouldn't have much of a chance when it came to perceiving ultimate reality.
just wonderin'...
:guitar:
Those things never originated with those who wrote the books of the bible.
They are misconceptions applied by people who read the bible and didnt understand the context of what was said and so they applied things from culture at the time and their logic that was formed at that time based on their culture.
This is only compounded today by certain elements trying to remove the bible and its teachings from all aspects of life.
QuoteThose things never originated with those who wrote the books of the bible.
They are misconceptions applied by people who read the bible and didnt understand the context of what was said and so they applied things from culture at the time and their logic that was formed at that time based on their culture.
This is only compounded today by certain elements trying to remove the bible and its teachings from all aspects of life.
I just don't get this. It seems to me, that if God wanted the teachings of the Bible to stand the test of time, it would have been written in a way that would be easy to understand for all times and all cultures.
This is one of those conundrums that I just can't get past.
There are some truly awful things in the Bible that any moral person would rightly choose not to follow. So, if it is the word of God, I can think of a kinder, gentler God than the God of the Bible. And if it is all right to pick and choose what parts of the Bible to follow (and/or believe) then it is okay not to believe that any of it is true, I suppose.
Aleta
QuoteThose things never originated with those who wrote the books of the bible.
They are misconceptions applied by people who read the bible and didnt understand the context of what was said and so they applied things from culture at the time and their logic that was formed at that time based on their culture.
This is only compounded today by certain elements trying to remove the bible and its teachings from all aspects of life.
I just don't get this. It seems to me, that if God wanted the teachings of the Bible to stand the test of time, it would have been written in a way that would be easy to understand for all times and all cultures.
This is one of those conundrums that I just can't get past.
There are some truly awful things in the Bible that any moral person would rightly choose not to follow. So, if it is the word of God, I can think of a kinder, gentler God than the God of the Bible. And if it is all right to pick and choose what parts of the Bible to follow (and/or believe) then it is okay not to believe that any of it is true, I suppose.
Aleta
They are easy to understand and do stand the test of time.
The problem lies with man who thinks things are suppose to fit his own ever changing view on how things are suppose to be to him, not God.
As to things in the bible not being moral, that was not from God, that was from man and his own view on how things are suppose to be and made to fit his own view of how things should be to him.
Pick and choose, not sure what you mean so if you could give an example.
I'm with you Aleta - and I have no problem with you being an atheist. I gather from your threads that you are a caring loving person who has done far more good in the world through your teaching and just your life than many other religious people who might or might not spend hours in a church. That's all that matters to me, and I cannot believe in a God that would somehow not 'count' good people who happen not to believe. By the same token I also know lots of church going people (my mother and my inlaws for example) who also give lots of their time up in the community and are genuinely good good people. I really don't actually care what the bible says, and I'm certainly not going to follow teachings from 2000 years ago. They do not apply now.
For those who don't know: OT = Old Testament and NT = New Testament.
The Old Testament is the old law and the prophecy that there would be a Redeemer who is Jesus Christ which starts the New Testament. The Jewish religion doesn't believe in the new testament. They are still waiting for a Saviour. Christians and Muslims believe the same until Abraham and then we split.
Hemodoc is right on. I like him more and more. :cheer:
For those of you who don't believe in life after death you better look into it. There IS life after death and one will be in hell. It would be so much easier if you just died and nothing happened.
It doesn't matter what you "believe" it matters what "IS". What is...... Be prepared.
God created the earth and everything in this earth. If you study "science" they cannot answer why the earth stays in the orbit, sustains life, water plants...... The Hubble satellite finally got a picture of the black hole and guess what they saw... The Cross. That won't mean a thing to people who don't know why Jesus died on the cross for us. You can't explain it to people who have not accepted his gift of eternal life.
and by the way, the bible was written a few hundred years AFTER jesus was supposed to have lived and died.Really? Where did you get that 'fact' from? The gospels and the epistles of the New Testament were all written in the same generation. John, who was Jesus' contemporary, wrote Revelation before he died.
actually, science does answer all those questions quite well. but, if you've already chosen to believe that the mythology of the bible is history, you won't have much of a chance to see the truth.
belief is not truth. it's a substitute for it.
and by the way, the bible was written a few hundred years AFTER jesus was supposed to have lived and died. the only bathing i read about in the bible was foot-washing. and it wasn't as much for cleanliness as it was for honoring someone. a four-year-old of today has a more developed intellect than the adults of those days, so i don't buy that the bible is anything but a book of mythology. which is NOT history.
;)
actually, science does answer all those questions quite well. but, if you've already chosen to believe that the mythology of the bible is history, you won't have much of a chance to see the truth.
belief is not truth. it's a substitute for it.
and by the way, the bible was written a few hundred years AFTER jesus was supposed to have lived and died. the only bathing i read about in the bible was foot-washing. and it wasn't as much for cleanliness as it was for honoring someone. a four-year-old of today has a more developed intellect than the adults of those days, so i don't buy that the bible is anything but a book of mythology. which is NOT history.
;)
I will never forget the time my husband gave a beggar $10 and the man said, "Praise be to god for your generosity." My husband said that being an atheist, he wanted the the beggar to understand that god had nothing to do with the gift, and if the beggar wanted to praise god for it, he would like the money back! :rofl; :rofl;
The beggar looked him in the eye and said, "No, sir. Thank YOU, sir."
Aleta
We are all individual who can do as we please. We shouldn't knock others for there beliefs be them with god or without god.
Its on the same level as offering a homeless person ten bucks and as they reach for it pulling it back and telling them they have to bark like a dog if they want it.Have you visited any homeless shelters? At many of them, the recipients of the aid must commit to being Christians before being allowed housing.
but I still have a hard time reconciling the idea of a loving deity with one who is so vindictive that mere lack of belief would condemn one to an eternity of hell. And if that god is all powerful and all knowing, then he would know in advance that I and others like me would not have belief in him. Knowing in advance that many would not believe in him and then having a rule that they are condemned to an eternity of suffering seems downright mean. I cannot accept that behavior as loving, just as I would not find that kind of behavior as loving in a human. In fact, I think humans more loving and forgiving than the gods of most religions. I truly like humans a whole lot more that I like the idea of god.
QuoteIts on the same level as offering a homeless person ten bucks and as they reach for it pulling it back and telling them they have to bark like a dog if they want it.Have you visited any homeless shelters? At many of them, the recipients of the aid must commit to being Christians before being allowed housing.
Aleta
Rendering the death penalty unto a serial killer is justice in my eyes.
I think BigSky using an offensive racial slur like Indian giver to describe your husband is uncalled for. (The term comes from Europeans not understanding American Indian cultural beliefs on possession.)
What part of “Thou shalt not kill” allows for exceptions of any nature? The ten commandments represent the very foundation of JudeoChristian belief, yet you seem to see a loophole here. I am honestly interested in how you reconcile this. If my husband commits adultery, can I do the same back to him with impunity?
I do agree with you that obviously there is a great deal of history in the Bible. I come from a family of atheists, and frankly, my father has always told me to read the bible because it is an important historical document. It is clearly embellished though, and borrows liberally from other belief systems (Greek mythology, paganism, etc.) I have only managed to read parts of the Bible, because the way women are treated from Genesis onward sickens me, and that is to say nothing of homosexuals. I have read GOD: A Biography twice (that man is a genius), though, and this discussion reminded me to start the sequel Christ: A Crisis in the Life of God. I recommend the first to anyone of any religion who wants to read riveting Biblical analysis.
With all due respect, BigSky, I think you are mistaken in your "complete understanding of the word (or technically speaking, expression) and it's history".
My very cursory research shows that most sources corroborate cariad's understanding of the origins of the term "indian giver" and whatever the origin, current usage appears to categorize it as a slur with racial overtones.
Of course the term Indian Giver is racist. It is meant as a put down to Indian Americans.
The OT does contain harsh examples of judgment by God against ungodly nations. Many use these as an example of an "immoral god," when in fact, it is an example of God dealing with these nations according to the law of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
I certainly didn't think I was being negative (as I'm generally not a negative person) and I apologize for coming across that way to anyone who took my comments as being negative toward those of faith. Although one might take some of the responses as personal attacks against me, I prefer to take it as an emotional response to an emotional issue. It isn't that emotional for me, but I understand that for many religion is a very emotional topic.
With all due respect, BigSky, I think you are mistaken in your "complete understanding of the word (or technically speaking, expression) and it's history".
My very cursory research shows that most sources corroborate cariad's understanding of the origins of the term "indian giver" and whatever the origin, current usage appears to categorize it as a slur with racial overtones.
No you would be mistaken in your understanding and research. This is clear by you only relying on how the word first originated and not how it has evolved into other definitions. I am Ojibwa and I know the other definition of this word.
That being as I stated. How one gives one something and then turns around and wants it back.
I.E How whites broke promises and treaties with the Indians and took back land from Indians once it was given and so forth.Of course the term Indian Giver is racist. It is meant as a put down to Indian Americans.
Only if its used in the manner of its original origin of which it was not. So in fact since it was not used in that manner it is therefore not a put down to my people as you try to claim.
QuoteThe OT does contain harsh examples of judgment by God against ungodly nations. Many use these as an example of an "immoral god," when in fact, it is an example of God dealing with these nations according to the law of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
Hemodoc, the (rhetorical) adultery question was meant as an analogy. I certainly meant no disrespect of Christianity. I was sincerely seeking further insight into your initial defense of the "eye for an eye" principal. I was trying to show with a deliberately absurd example how the only way to strictly implement an eye for an eye in certain cases is to encourage further sin. You said the death penalty is justice for killers. I don't necessarily agree or disagree, the death penalty is one of those issues where I can see both sides and have yet to clearly work out for myself how I really feel about it. I am genuinely interested in how Christians can find Biblical support for the death penalty given the unequivocal nature of the ten commandments.
Further, I never said that I believed committing adultery as revenge against an adulterer is a premise of the Bible, but that it seemed to follow from your argument. In fact, my recollection of the small amount of biblical study that I had in school has left me thinking all these years that the Bible condemns an eye for an eye as barbaric. My husband seems to think that the ten commandments sprang out as a response to that law. I don't know, I am thinking aloud.
Myself, I believe in the saying "An eye for an eye leaves the world blind."
I believe that Epoman wanted to start discussion, and that he used the initial question as a way to get people talking about the different aspects of their beliefs. I found the discussion interesting and informative, but it seems I have offended you, so I want to apologize. Actually, I want to apologize and quote Aleta, because she says these things so well:QuoteI certainly didn't think I was being negative (as I'm generally not a negative person) and I apologize for coming across that way to anyone who took my comments as being negative toward those of faith. Although one might take some of the responses as personal attacks against me, I prefer to take it as an emotional response to an emotional issue. It isn't that emotional for me, but I understand that for many religion is a very emotional topic.
Aleta, I just love your attitude. I can learn a great deal about social grace from you.
Dear cariad, thank you for your apology. I spent 36 years as an unbeliever, so discussing my faith is one of the things I enjoy the most now in my old age of 51. Your questions are appreciated. Unfortunately, most threads on the nature of Christian faith often devolve into spurious dialogues based on false premises. That was the reason for my response to prevent that since several other posts seemed to be headed that way. IHD has spirited discourses on many issues where people have strong opinions, but for the most part, IHD is able to keep the discussions polite. I see no reason why this thread should be any different.
Dear willowtreewren,I am so touched by this message.... I could never word my faith in God in such lovingly way. I could not think of the words to describe the way I feel or the way I am blessed at all. Thank you so much for these words. Now I can describe what I feel to others.
I readily understand not understanding what the gospel of Christ is really all about since I didn't as well until I was 36 years old myself. The Bible tells us to give food and shelter to those that are less fortunate. It also does tell us to spread the gospel. Missions have been a wonderful area to do both of these things.
I have preached in the California prison system for several years. The purpose of preaching was not to make people feel unworthy of help, it was just the opposite, to show the worth of men that others have thrown away so to speak. Reaching out to the prisons where society has given up on them, reaching out to skid row for those that no one else pays attention to is a true outreach from teachings of the Bible. Thus, the message of prison ministries and mission work here to the less fortunate is the message that God finds them worthy of His attention and He sends us to do His will for these people. I must take exception that the missions make them feel unworthy when the entire thrust of the mission work is the message that God finds these people worthy even though society does not.
Once again, having preached in the prisons myself to rapists, killers and others in maximum security, the purpose was never to show someone that I am more worthy because I am a Christian. Just the opposite, the Bible tells us that Christ died for us even when we were all sinners. I am overwhelmed by the love of God that He sent His son to pay the consequences of my many sins. That is the greatest act of love anywhere and anytime in this universe. It is a free gift to all. Love must be free, so God gives us the free will to choose. The choice of heaven and hell is given to the individual. The gift is offered to all, including the lowest parts of society including the homeless. The success of the missions is in reaching people with the means to elevate their life out of the gutter and to foresake the lifestyles that led to where they are. It is a story with many successes, yet people can eat over and over again and never accept Christ, and they will keep feeding them. They don't place conversion as a condition to help these people. They are fed food for the body and food for the soul. Then, the people are given the free choice to accept or reject the offer of salvation.
Most of these people are not eligible for government services and I am not aware of any atheist missions to the poor. If they are out there, that would be interesting to know about. The Christian missions have an incredible history of serving the poor and disenfranchised people in this nation and around the world. Once again, conversion is not a requirement to obtain food and shelter. I find it one of the most admirable endeavors of the human kind.
I find it difficult to find anything at all wrong with Christian missions doing this sort of work. I placed my own life at risk to preach in prisons every time I went by myself among a group of mureders and rapist and drug dealers. It is an act of sacrifice to serve the people that the rest of society neglects. I simply can't find any aspect of this to criticize myself having been a part of the same giving that leads us to support mission work at home and abroad. The message ultimately is that God finds all sinners, no matter how low on the totem pole of society worthy of the sacrifice of His only begotten son. I am just overwhelmed by this message and grateful that He would forgive completely a sinner such as I. It is the most amazing story ever written mainly because of its truth which I have found personally in my own life. Prayers are real as are His answers. Quite an amazing thing.
I still say if I'm wrong, no big deal. But if you're wrong.........
Perhaps instead of talking about someone's religion in a negative sense, we would be better to return to the original intent that Epoman set forth: Is there a God? My answer is an emphatic yes for a host of reasons.
I had tickets to the planned (but next to last actual function) of Tammy Faye and Jim Baker. Opps, it got cancelled but I got my money back.
Chauffeur came in limo to pick up Billy Graham. Graham said to chauffeur, I've never driven on of these. Please let me drive. After some coaching and praying the chauffeur agreed. Graham started down the freeway a little too fast and not very long after he was pulled over by a highway patrol man. The patrolman looked in the drivers window and was perplexed. What should he do? He thinks, I'll better call in to check protocol. He gets his supervisor on the phone and says I've stopped someone and really down want to give them a ticket. But we don't discriminate says the supervisor. But it is someone really important says the patrol man. Is it the Governors? No, more important than that. The President? No, even more important. Who then asked the supervisor? I'm not sure replies the patrolman but it may be Jesus. The Chauffeur is Billy Graham.!
Forgive me.
Thank you Dan and Del,
While I do not believe in a higher power, I do hold that people can and should be accepting of the beliefs of others. I fear that most organized religions do not share that sentiment despite lip service to it. Otherwise there would not have been the many religious wars over the millennia.
I realize that some folks need to have a higher power, and that is perfectly all right.
For me, I know that I am made of the stuff of stars and will return to the same stuff when my life is over. I don't need a god to be good. And I certainly try to good all the time (though not always successful). Because this is the only life that I have (I believe in life before death), it is very precious and I need to make the most of it. My only shot at immortality is to leave a bequest of good works behind.
Aleta
Although, I did tell a Muslim friend on Christmas day that I couldn't be Muslim because I couldn't kneel down and bow so many times a day. Someone would have to help me up and down!! :rofl; (he thought I was very funny!)
Once again, how do you explain the plain truth that the crucifixion is prophesied in several places in the OT? Is that proof for God?
Epoman loved a good argument. That is why he asked the question. He didn't expect anyone to change anothers beliefs but only to spark a debate. Nothing on any side can ever be proven. At some point, we agree to disagree and we respect each others thoughts on religion. No one has to challenge what I believe --- I know what I know.
I don't know why I ever post on this thread. It is an age old conversation that will never be resolved. But, if one size fit all, life wouldn't be as rich. :2thumbsup;
If you want to pretend to be relitious why would you tell a grieving man to let his daughter die? I though relitious people had respect for all kinds of life.
If you respect others then why would you tell one of the best and nicest people on here that they were going to hell.
If you have respect others then why would you suggest that all people working in diallysiis units should be required to give kidneys.
And I am called Crawfish a lot. Crawchevy doesn't offend me but makes little sense.
(oh, I just got it. Like chevy for ford. Very good and funny.)
Interesting, Rob. We used to watch Babylon 5 in the old days. :2thumbsup;
I, too, took many philosophy courses in my younger days, actually minored in it for a while.
And this actually speaks to something I tried to say, though probably clumsily. And that is that we can find wisdom in many places, not just the "great" texts. I think it is all a search for what resonates for us.
Punishment, wrathfulness, and vindictiveness just don't resonate for me. I'm more into beauty, kindness, and tolerance. Throw a strong bent for scientific evidence into that mix and it pretty much sums up my world view.
:waving;
Aleta
What is relitious? ??? Do you mean religious?
I also tell people who feel they have to quit this bord to not let the door hit them in the ass.
hahahaha Catholics ARE Christians. A Christian is anyone that believes in Jesus Christ. Catholics are a type of Christian. Just like Protestants, and Orthodox Christians, and Evangelists...etc. Some of these "terms" can be broken down further too. Like Protestants can be broken down into Anglicans, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Calvanists...etc
Epoman: Nobody is saying that we evolved from apes. That is a hugely common misconception. We did however evolve from a similar ancestor, that does not exist anymore. Evolution usually occurs through the splitting of species. So a common ancestor (probably way way way before humans and monkeys or gorillas or whatever) would have been divided somehow, whether it be geographically or through a disease or one of another million possibilities. This separation would have caused this common ancestor to diverge genetically. Now it doesn't work like "the trees were tall, so their babies were born taller"...its actually that due to random mutations, the babies that were born taller were able to survive and carry on their genes... so the same would have happened. Maybe in one part of the world, the smarter "ape-like creatures" survived, whereas in the other part, the more limber, and stronger ape-like creatures survived...and you have to remember this happened over millions of years. We've seen so much evolution over the past couple of hundred years, that this is not that much of a surprise. Look at how tall people are now. Look at skin colours. Look at the ability of humans to learn...
Evolution is a proven fact, through examining genetic codes, and the genomes of animals. Take the influenza virus for example. It evolves every year...
Now I don't know if God exists or not. I think thats the point. We're not supposed to know for sure, we have to have faith. That's why the notion of God is still around, and always will be. If you believe, then hes there. If you don't believe and need proof, then you'll never get it, because you shouldn't need proof to know that he's there. It's the perfect way to make people believe.
I also think that the reason humans need a God, is because it is part of our genetics. That's why everywhere in the world, each society has some sort of God or religion. It's a survival tool. The holes we can't explain, God fills those in for us. It's part of our cognitive behaviour to need a God. It hurts to try and think that out of nothingness, something was created randomly. Or even there never was nothingness, and there has always been something there. Or things like infinite. To think that the universe goes on forever. Mind boggling. But that's because I'm using a human brain to try and grasp these ideas. My brain isn't "hard-wired" to do so. I like the idea of a God starting everything, because it's simple, and it explains everything.
And if I'm going to burn in Hell for thinking this way, well then so be it. I don't believe in a Hell, so I'm not really scared. I think that when I die, theres going to be nothingness. Just like when I go to sleep and can't remember my dreams from the night before. It's as if that time between when I was awake, went to sleep, and then woke up again, never really happened. Or if I drink too much and can't remember what happened the night before ( ;D ) there's a void...a nothingness. Is that depressing? no because I have tomorrow to look forward to. I don't need an eternal afterlife. All I need is to make the most of the time I've got here on Earth.
And as for religion, I like the idea of a church, because it is somewhere I can go, the people are nice, the message is relatively uplifting, and the morals are good. Its a good setting to raise a family, and live an honest and fulfilling life. But that doesn't mean I buy it all. In the back of my head, I try to be a good person because of the whole "heaven and hell" thing, even though I don't really believe it. But what's the harm in that? Although, the main reason I dont break the law, is because I'm afraid of the judicial system, I still have a conscious...where does that come from? probably from my Christian up-bringing. So yeah, I'll take my kids to church...But I'll also teach them the wonders of science...
And as for Jimmy Hoffa, he's probably living it up right now with Tupac, Elvis, and JFK
With the intelligence humans have and the power that our brain is capable of and the complexities of the human body, I don't see how anyone could think that we evolved.
You said:QuoteI think that when I die, theres going to be nothingness. Just like when I go to sleep and can't remember my dreams from the night before. It's as if that time between when I was awake, went to sleep, and then woke up again, never really happened. Or if I drink too much and can't remember what happened the night before ( ;D ) there's a void...a nothingness. Is that depressing?
Yes, I find it very depressing, when you have your first child you will understand, until then you will not, believe me your views on everything change when you become a parent. I would hate to have your beliefs and know that once I or my son dies, we will never see each other again. I like the fact that in my belief I know that even after our deaths my son and I will re-unite. With your beliefs you will NEVER know the secrets of the universe, you will not be able to ask questions that have pondered man since the the beginning of time and get factual answers. In my belief I will be able to get answers to all my questions.
With your belief you have EVERYTHING to lose. If you are wrong you will go to hell, If you are right then you have lost nothing. But in my belief I have everything to gain, If I am correct I have a paradise to look forward to when I die, if I am wrong then I have lost NOTHING, I will simple cease to exist and be void. Think about it for a second. If there is a GOD (which obviously I believe there is) then by you not having faith, and believing in evolution then you are basically denouncing GOD and therefor forsaking him. Which will not allow you to enter the kingdom of heaven.
And Petey, we will not only dance on the summer breeze, but burn brilliantly in the core of a new star.
:2thumbsup;
Catholics are Christians, they are the original Christian church. Everything else (every other Christian denomination anyway) has been a spin-off from Catholicism. Catholics don't think non-Catholics are going to hell. Actually, they teach that we can't and shouldn't judge who we think is going to hell.
Okay, I'm a Christian, so therefore I'm a Catholic? Mormons think they are Christians too, so I guess I'm a Mormon now too.
Do Catholics read the bible?
Do Catholics read the Bible? - Uh, YEAH! The Catholic Bible actually has more books than the Protestant Bible b/c when the Reformation and stuff was going on, if a book was not particularly favored by the public, or the leaders didn't want to follow or adhere to that part anymore, they left it out. At mass, we read part of the Bible every time. It's a 3 yr cycle, so at the end of 3 yrs, we will have read the whole Bible except for a few small parts.
Christian = Catholic? - Well Catholics are Christian. Protestants don't believe everything the CC teaches so no, they are not Catholics. And I don't THINK I am a Christian - I KNOW I am.
Wait, so your saying your a Christian Catholic? I was raised in Christian school and I have never heard of Christian Catholics. But I guess hyperlite in his last post summed it up best. I by the way am Protestant and I only read the King James Version. I personally hate all these new wave bibles that make it easier for the reader to understand, The Psalms just don't sound as beautiful in those new bibles.
- Epoman
Read all of this one, it is interesting!! Read down to the very bottom highlighted in green. You don't want to miss this!!
VERY INTERESTING-
1. The Garden of Eden was in Iraq.
2. Mesopotamia, which is now Iraq, was the cradle of civilization!
3. Noah built the ark in Iraq.
4. The Tower of Babel was in Iraq
5. Abraham was from Ur, which is in Southern Iraq!
6. Isaac's wife Rebekah is from Nahor, which is in Iraq!
7. Jacob met Rachel in Iraq.
8. Jonah preached in Nineveh - which is in Iraq.
9. Assyria, which is in Iraq, conquered the ten tribes of Israel.
10. Amos cried out in Iraq!
11. Babylon, which is in Iraq, destroyed Jerusalem.
12. Daniel was in the lion's den in Iraq!
13. Belshazzar, the King of Babylon saw the "writing on the wall" in Iraq.
14. Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon, carried the Jews captive into Iraq.
15. Ezekiel preached in Iraq.
16. The wise men were from Iraq
17. Peter preached in Iraq.
18. The "Empire of Man" described in Revelation is called Babylon, which was a city in Iraq!
And you have probably seen this one. Israel is the nation most often mentioned in the Bible. But do you know which nation is second? It is Iraq! However, that is not the name that is used in the Bible. The names used in the Bible are Babylon, Land of Shinar, and Mesopotamia. The word Mesopotamia means between the two rivers, more exactly between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. The name Iraq, means country with deep roots.
Indeed Iraq is a country with deep roots and is a very significant country in the Bible.
No other nation, except Israel, has more history and prophecy associated it than Iraq.
And also, This is something to think about! Since America is typically represented by an eagle. Saddam should have read up on his Muslim passages...
The following verse is from the Koran, (the Islamic Bible)
Koran (9:11 ) - For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah; and there was peace.
(Note the verse number!) Hmmmmmmm?!
Yeah thanks, but lets keep this ON-TOPIC ok? ::) If you want a "911" thread or a "thread talking about Iraqs place in biblical history" then start a NEW thread. This is about "Is there a GOD" Do you enjoy taking my threads off-topic? ::)
That brings up an interesting thought. My friend Adrian just came by today and was talking to me about religion. He isn't Catholic like me (I am not sure what he is) but lately he has been telling me that he is doubting the authenticity of the Bible. Also there was a guy once on IMVU who was trying to tell me that the Toran is more accurate than the Bible since the Bible has been changed over the years and throughout generations and translations.
Anyone have any input on this? I have been doing a lot of thinking about this.
OFF-TOPIC, PLEASE stay ON-TOPIC ::) Please START A NEW THREAD.
Petey, that Jewish Rabi can not get to heaven by good works. Period.
Though Christian in my beliefs and thinking that my reward for professing my belief in God will be eternal life with God my Savior and Jesus Christ, His son...this discussion makes me question whether I would rather walk the streets of gold in heaven with judgmental, condescending, narrow-minded, "holier-than-thou" Bible beaters ... or ... sparkle brilliantly among the stars with gentle, loving, unpretentious, kindred souls for eons yet unnumbered. Hmmmmmmm....save me a seat by you, Aleta!
To answer Hemodoc's questions, "Is there a God?" I believe there is a God. That doesn't mean that there is one -- just that I BELIEVE there is. I accept that others may not believe that there is a God, and I would never try to cram my beliefs down others' throats. I don't think that that is what MY God would want me to do.
Well said Petey. I also believe in my God. But, I dont think Heaven will be loaded with "Bible Thumpers" either.
I think Hemodoc is right. (Gosh). Read back over his posts and he is not actually saying we have to believe everything he says - just that this is the reason he does. Fair enough. I still love that we can have this conversation - I wish more people with other views would put them down too - but I think they just can't be bothered with the repercussion. I do cringe though Rerun when you tell people they are going to hell - I just can't understand how you think that's ok - it's not up to us to tell people that surely? Can't you see how that is more likely to turn someone away from God?
"With your belief you have EVERYTHING to lose. If you are wrong you will go to hell, If you are right then you have lost nothing. But in my belief I have everything to gain, If I am correct I have a paradise to look forward to when I die, if I am wrong then I have lost NOTHING, I will simple cease to exist and be void. Think about it for a second. If there is a GOD (which obviously I believe there is) then by you not having faith, and believing in evolution then you are basically denouncing GOD and therefor forsaking him. Which will not allow you to enter the kingdom of heaven."
Quote"With your belief you have EVERYTHING to lose. If you are wrong you will go to hell, If you are right then you have lost nothing. But in my belief I have everything to gain, If I am correct I have a paradise to look forward to when I die, if I am wrong then I have lost NOTHING, I will simple cease to exist and be void. Think about it for a second. If there is a GOD (which obviously I believe there is) then by you not having faith, and believing in evolution then you are basically denouncing GOD and therefor forsaking him. Which will not allow you to enter the kingdom of heaven."
On the contrary, I would be losing the core of my being, my integrity, indeed, even my happiness for the concept of heaven as expressed in the Bible is not that appealing to me. I don't want to live this precious life that I have thinking that it is merely a dress rehearsal for an eternity without a body. Indeed, I would lose the reason to continue living. Pascal's wager only makes sense from the viewpoint of one who believes in heaven. I don't, and I certainly don't want to take up that shallow bet, destroying my peace of mind and hurling myself into a life of guilt and misery. Nope, to each his own.
Petey and Jean, you are so sweet.
Aleta
I keep hearing the word 'Hell' mentioned on this thread and I find it incredible that some Christians still believe in its existence. If we take the premise that christians take there beliefs from the teachings of the bible scriptures then it must be made clear that there is nothing contained in those scriptures which describes any kind of consciousness after death which involved permanent torment.
The word often sited is 'Hades` which translated from ancient Hebrew means the grave or tomb or any place where the dead are interned. Another word often appears called 'Gehenna' also mistranslated to mean Hell. In fact Gehenna was a public garbage dump just outside the walls of Jerusalem where the poor and destitute were buried where there were no funds for a funeral.
Also the old testament Hebrews never believed any conscious life after death heaven hell or otherwise and neither does Judaism to this day. The early christians of the Greek New testament scriptures believed that they were living in the last times and that during their lifetime Christ would return to rule the world so as the word eternal implies (without interuption eg. death) they would never experience death and therefor live eternally which of course did not happen,
The idea of life after death was invented by the then tyrannical catholic church and the Spanish Inquisition in the middle ages using the concept of 'Hell' mistranslated from the bible in the way described above to scare the sh't out of people they sought to control.
I've been reading this thread with a certain amount of consternation and feel no need or desire whatsoever to declare my own personal beliefs on the existence of God. The topic is complex and many spend years debating and studying the Bible, both the OT and the NT, the Koran, the Upanishads and so on in their quest for understanding and for ways of bolstering their faith. Can people even agree on the definition of "God"?
Some people convert from one religion to another, some reaffirm their faith in the religion of their parents or of their community. Very few study all of the major world religions in depth and then choose the one that convinces them best in their quest for the existence of GOD.
Just as there exists on earth a variety of languages in which to communicate our thoughts, a variety of physical attributes such as skin colour to serve us best depending on the geography we inhabit, a variety of creatures that each have a contribution to make to a local ecology, a variety of landscapes which provide variously for their inhabitants, a wide variety of innate talents and abilities, is it not just possible that this "God" of which we speak so strongly might speak to different people in different ways.
Many rivers arrive eventually at the sea, some quietly, some more spectacularly but the oceans consist of water from a wide variety of streams. Why would God, I wonder, present most things in such diversity yet reduce the judgment of what constitutes the worthiness of a life to only ONE single choice? I have no idea what will happen to me after I die, the only thing I know for certain is that I will die. Until then I hope to continue seeking a way to live peacefully with others and with myself, to try to listen openly to others and to respect those who may differ in their conclusions but who also continue to search or indeed who have searched and have found sufficient certainty to ensure personal peace of mind. I am grateful for the concern of those who worry about the eventual destination of my "soul" as I take this a sign of caring but the answers to the eternal questions posed by the mystery of what happens after death remain, in my view, deeply personal and in the end one has to convince oneself and, perhaps more importantly, live with oneself.
I deleted the contents of my last post here (which now reads "asdf") because if offended the most important person I know. We almost had a fight over it. Thank "good" it made a closer understanding instead. Just so as to not cause more confusion, my friend and I are polar opposite on the topic of "good" or "evil". I know Rerun approved and the intention was to bring the discussion down to a friendlier level. I'm so "passive aggressive" though, that often my message gets obscured.
Anyway, I'd like to leave you all with a quote:
"Can't you kids all just get alone?"
Olivia (my mom)
Oh, what a deliciously delightful thread this is! :rofl;
So many things I could address...Hemodoc provides so many points to refute!
Let's start with Pascal's Wager (that is the story about "If you believe and it's false, you've lost nothing, but if you don't believe and it's true, you've lost eternity"). It suffers from one giant, gaping logical flaw - it assumes there is only one religion. The "choice" is not between Jesus and atheism - it is between any hundreds of religions.
I put the question to you - what if it turns out the Buddhists (or substitute religion of choice here) are correct? If you don't believe in Buddhism, you've lost any chance of reaching Nirvana...
If I were God, I don't think I'd be very impressed with a "follower" who only "believed" in me as a bet.
Also, Hemodoc seems most impressed by the prophecies regarding the crucifixion in the OT. He quotes the "wounds in his hands" verses extensively. First off, as a doctor, think about the anatomy of the hand and the arm. Romans did not crucify through the hand, as in the vast majority of cases, the hand is not structurally strong enough to support nearly the entire weight of the body on a nail driven through it. The wrists, however, are that strong. And that is why the Romans crucified by driving nails through the wrists (though that was only for the most heinous of offenders, most criminals were simply tied to a cross by the wrists and ankles). The wrists will support such weight.
Sure, the Bible says he was nailed through the hand. But there are no eyewitness accounts in the Bible - the chronology doesn't fit.
I offer you a second explanation for the close agreement between the crucifixion story and the prophecies. The Jesus story was written to fulfill as many prophecies as possible. Remember, we have no eyewitness accounts from the time.
Also, you stereotype badly when you assume that anyone who simply reads the Bible will agree with you. I have read the Bible cover-to-cover more than once, and Biblical scholarship is still a hobby I indulge from time to time. And I do not agree with your conclusions. What if I told you that I was certain that you had not read the Bible, because if you had, you would reach the same conclusions I did? I wager you would find that offensive.
For the record, I grew up a "born again" Christian, and I am now an atheist. I cannot possibly know if there is a "higher power" in the universe. But I am quite certain that if there is, no human religion has gotten it right.
I deleted the contents of my last post here (which now reads "asdf") because if offended the most important person I know. We almost had a fight over it. Thank "good" it made a closer understanding instead. Just so as to not cause more confusion, my friend and I are polar opposite on the topic of "good" or "evil". I know Rerun approved and the intention was to bring the discussion down to a friendlier level. I'm so "passive aggressive" though, that often my message gets obscured.
Anyway, I'd like to leave you all with a quote:
"Can't you kids all just get alone?"
Olivia (my mom)
I like that quote, Dan!!! Just because we have different views on the world and the hereafter doesn't mean we can't get along.
Monrein, I like your view on things . It is very similar to mine. What if the buddhists, hindus, muslims or any other religion is right?? We really have no proof of what is right. We can just study writings and try to interpret them as best we can and that often leaves to many different interpretations.
Hemodoc, I see your point of giving the reasons why you chose your belief. We all have our own personal reasons for our beliefs and our questions about things.
Rerun I understand your view as well.
This thread continues to be very interesting!!
Dear Hemodoc
I am fully convinced, by all that you have posted, that you have carefully read and are personally fully convinced by all that you have found in the Bible to support the Christian message of redemption through Christ. I do not question or doubt the detours that you have taken through Buddhism or other philosophies in order to arrive at your convictions. I agree that man often may not understand or hear "God" and there is certainly ample proof of man's evil in the world, including of course all that has been done in the name of God and religion. I note also man's frequent and profound disrespect for the world around us and even for the fragile yet brilliantly resilient human body in which we each individually reside.
However, I struggle continually with absolutism and certainty of all kinds, not just in the matter of faith, and continue to feel (not to know, but simply to have an inkling) that God may well speak and be heard in a variety of ways. The world that I see around me contains many colours and even shades of each of these, not just black or white so while I admire the concern of those Christians who seek to show their understanding of God's intentions to others who may not have been listening or reading closely enough and so risk eternal damnation for themselves, may I be so bold as to say, that even if I agree with each and every biblical point that you put forth I would still not be sure that I had reached the one and only understanding that would hold universally true for every person on earth. I am in no hurry to leave the world as I find it a fascinating and wondrous place, despite it's contradictions and dichotomies, but neither am I afraid to die and find out what happens, or in fact face nothingness as some believe, once I no longer exist in my current physical dimension . We are inherently imperfect and that may extend also to our deepest convictions but yet we continue as a species to discuss and grapple with issues of faith and the meaning of life. I celebrate with you the peace that you have found in your quest for faith and the meaning that it provides you.
I cannot possibly know if there is a "higher power" in the universe. But I am quite certain that if there is, no human religion has gotten it right.
Dear Ken, I won't get into a long point for point discussion of your many contentions here but say that they are all not factually true.
I will challenge you with a simple question: If there is no hell, no place of eternal separation from God, then why did Jesus go to the cross? What did His save us from? Jesus Himself spoke of hell more than He spoke of heaven. It is a real place just as heaven is a real place and it was not the Catholic church that invented this. If hell is only the grave as you assert, and if there is no existence after death as many also assert, then where did the references to burning in torment throughout the entire Bible come from? It is the reason that Jesus came to redeem us from an eternity of separation from God. Once again, the importance of the cross. Once again, the importance of the OT references to the death on the cross. I come back full circle again to the challenge of the cross. Your theology of hell simply does not fit with the story of Jesus dying on the cross. What was the purpose of Jesus dying on the cross if there is no hell?
I For example, how many wars have been waged in the name of religion - yet most religions that I know of claim to preach tolerance of others, "love thy neighbor" and variations thereof...
I For example, how many wars have been waged in the name of religion - yet most religions that I know of claim to preach tolerance of others, "love thy neighbor" and variations thereof...
How many wars have been waged that were not in the name of religion?
I For example, how many wars have been waged in the name of religion - yet most religions that I know of claim to preach tolerance of others, "love thy neighbor" and variations thereof...
How many wars have been waged that were not in the name of religion?
Probably as many as were in the name of various religions. It doesn't make it any more correct, whatever the excuse. Though there are times when doing the right thing involves making violent choices. This is unforunately how things are.
Which leads me to ask, what do you think Jesus would have said of all the killing in his name? And, before you get your undies in an uproar, I am a Christan. I am not criticizing Christianity, just asking people to stop and think for a minute.
Yes, I said I was a Christan, and my eariler posts here were misinterpreted by some to believe I am not. I am not asking this question to get people upset, or to argue.
Dear Ken, I won't get into a long point for point discussion of your many contentions here but say that they are all not factually true.
I will challenge you with a simple question: If there is no hell, no place of eternal separation from God, then why did Jesus go to the cross? What did His save us from? Jesus Himself spoke of hell more than He spoke of heaven. It is a real place just as heaven is a real place and it was not the Catholic church that invented this. If hell is only the grave as you assert, and if there is no existence after death as many also assert, then where did the references to burning in torment throughout the entire Bible come from? It is the reason that Jesus came to redeem us from an eternity of separation from God. Once again, the importance of the cross. Once again, the importance of the OT references to the death on the cross. I come back full circle again to the challenge of the cross. Your theology of hell simply does not fit with the story of Jesus dying on the cross. What was the purpose of Jesus dying on the cross if there is no hell?
Hemodoc my point was that Hell or Hades meant separation from god. But not separation in conscious torment but that all consciousness ceases to exist, the person ceases to exist.
The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all ... for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Hades (the grave), the place to which you are going.
Ecclesiastes 9: 5, 10
The untranslated Hebrew and Greek scripture which formed the old and new testaments of the bible often warns sinners that they will burn not in hell but in Gehenna (again misleadingly translated as hell by bible scholars of the medieval catholic church. Its one thing to be threatened by separation from God in complete unconscious death but then quite another at the thought of conscious torture and eternal torment.
Gehenna was a stinking garbage dump and was frequently set on fire with the bodies of criminals and the poorest of the Jews. This has since been subverted to to portray the eternal fire of the dammed. In biblical theology it is a complete perversion of it's original meaning and context of the time. The idea of an immortal soul does not appear anywhere in the in either the old or new testament. Ask any devout follower of Judaism who like Christians believe the Old testament as being the true word of God and they will tell you there is no belief in their religion of an immortal soul.
I repeat that the early Christian belief was that the dead would stay dead until they were mortally resurrected on judgment day and the righteous would live eternally on this earth and the unrighteous would be separated from God by death and therefor cease to exist.
All proclamations of a spiritual life after death come long after bible canon by the established church which by then were teaching a totally corrupt version of bible Christianity using the religion as a means of political control.
Edited: Fixed quote tag error - okarol/admin
I suppose I would call myself half agnostic/half atheist, and I quite agree with Rocker's last statement:QuoteI cannot possibly know if there is a "higher power" in the universe. But I am quite certain that if there is, no human religion has gotten it right.
I have no proof one way or the other that there's a higher being, or beings (for our Hindu friends), be it God(s), superpowered aliens, or whatever. By the same token, there's no proof that there isn't a God(s) out there. If proof arrives then I'm more than happy to
submit, though submit is the wrong word, because I believe strongly in freedom of thought and belief, and I wouldn't want to exactly be told to think a particular way, but I certainly would be more open to subscribing to a particular faith if some proof existed. And by proof I do not mean the bible, or the Koran or some other holy book written by men. I suppose I mean the second coming, or whathave you.
My bigger issue is more to do with organised religion of ANY kind. To me it seems that half the time organised churches, in the way they preach their beliefs tend to undermine the principles their religions stand for. For example, how many wars have been waged in the name of religion - yet most religions that I know of claim to preach tolerance of others, "love thy neighbor" and variations thereof... I also dislike having some person, or organisation, telling me that I *should* think a certain way, and if I don't that somehow I'm a bad person for it. This isn't just about relgiion - it's a general issue.. be about smoking, or drugs, or sex, or whatever... I don't want someone else pushing their views in my face and making out that if I think differently (ie: for myself) that I'm a bad person, or somehow missing out. Sure, I'm not perfect and I am sure many of my ideas and personal beliefs aren't ideal, but they're *mine*
By the same token I am not going to tell any other person here, or anywhere else, that what they believe is wrong, or bad - that would be exactly the thing I loathe. I personally don't agree with any kind of fundamentalist belief (ie: taken to extremes) but I will support someone's right to believe in it.
The only time I will say something or direct my opinion is if belief or ideas or whatever are being pushed on someone else without their consent.
I don't care what adults do and believe if it's not hurting anyone but if people are being hurt, or dragged around or kept against their will, or subjugated in some way then I do not like that.. but that is a general principle. Note that I see this as being different from some religions (eg: Islam) where women cover up and have an (apparently) servile role in that culture - in general, from what I have seen, a lot of Islamic women are more than content/happy with their lives and beliefs and I have no issue with that.
I guess in a nutshell my feelings on religion, in general are, that I am not a believer myself but I support anyone's right to believe whatever they like as long as it doesn't hurt others. As I said above I believe a lot of the organised churches have that idea kind of botched in one way or another, and of course extreemist elements(of any religion) take things over the top and skew things to support their particular viewpoint which may bear little in common with the mainstream of their particular religion.. and of course we have seen the end result of the most extreme of fundamentalist viewpoints (ie: terrorism-usually against innocents, some of the same religion!)
I am sure I will get flamed for this post, but it's just how I feel. Like I said I have no problem with anything anyone else believes and quite happy to hear about it even if I personally disagree... that's what makes the world go around.
I think blaming war on religion is a bit like blaming soccer hooliganism on soccer. It's not the game itself that is bad - it's that some people who follow it do odd things.
I think blaming war on religion is a bit like blaming soccer hooliganism on soccer. It's not the game itself that is bad - it's that some people who follow it do odd things.
Hanfy, you have stated my point exactly. It is not religon that is bad, but the way some people pratice it, use it, beleive in it. This applies to all religons and not just one or part of one.
You, RichardMel, Rocker, and Del are off topic. 'The question is: Is there a God.' The topic is not about religion, it is about God.
Sorry folks.
Mimi
I For example, how many wars have been waged in the name of religion - yet most religions that I know of claim to preach tolerance of others, "love thy neighbor" and variations thereof...
How many wars have been waged that were not in the name of religion?
Probably as many as were in the name of various religions. It doesn't make it any more correct, whatever the excuse. Though there are times when doing the right thing involves making violent choices. This is unforunately how things are.
Which leads me to ask, what do you think Jesus would have said of all the killing in his name? And, before you get your undies in an uproar, I am a Christan. I am not criticizing Christianity, just asking people to stop and think for a minute.
Yes, I said I was a Christan, and my eariler posts here were misinterpreted by some to believe I am not. I am not asking this question to get people upset, or to argue.
I wasn't calling anybody a fruitcake Petey. It was just an observation as most people don't like fruitcake. Been on my mind why there are so many if no one likes them. Just a couple of unrelated random thoughts.
I didn't say I don't like fruitcake. I said most people don't. Or at least they say they don't. I think maybe i like this thread better off topic than on. Who soaks their fruitcake with brandy?
I agree, Dan!! Maybe God would just like for this thread -- and the fruitcakes -- to go away! :rofl; sorry! couldn't help myself!
I am thinking that if there is a god then he/she or it is getting pretty pissed at how some of his so called "chosen ones" are alienating people who could possibly become a convert at some point. I wonder if god likes fruitcake or if he/she/it would just prefer that this whole thread go away.
Ok inspired by thread: http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=620.0 (http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=620.0) that topic was getting off course, it was about gays and marriage. It turned into a GOD debate. Well lets continue the debate here.
Is there a GOD? I personally believe YES! I can't imagine that with the complexity of the human body especially the brain, and all the feelings we have, that go hand in hand, for example sex, it serves a purpose and it FEELS GOOD! ;) I just can't imagine that we were an accident, a "Big Bang" happened and a million years later we have Tivo. ??? There are so many beautiful things in this world that are just too perfect. Some people say we evolved from apes, well they can bite my ass. If apes evolved into man, why are there still apes? Is the bible right I hope so! remember though, it was written by man, and things do get lost in translation. I don't know which religion is correct, there are so many! Catholics believe Christians are going to hell and Christians believe Catholics are going to hell, and everyone thinks buddhists are all going to burn. ;D Who is right? I personally think that as long as you believe in a GOD and live a good life, you will go to heaven when you die, if I didn't believe in GOD and NO forgiveness for the ultimate sin (suicide) I would have offed myself 13 years ago. But I fear GOD and I try to follow his rules as much as possible. Because when I die I want to go to heaven and chill with "THE MAN" and talk about the mysteries of the universe, things like what ever happened to Jimmy Hoffa?
Well that should start things off....
DISCUSS!
By HyperliteQuoteMaybe it was God that "snapped his fingers" and made the first cell by forcing a few key nutrients to work together in a cycle? I dunno, I wasn't there. But I know that didn't make the world as we know it today, in 7 days...
How do you know it wasn't created in 7 days? (yeah, yeah he rested on the 7th) You may argue,well carbon dating has proven the earth is millions of years old, TRUE, I will buy that however, for all we know 1 day may equal a million or several millions of years in GODS time.
Here is the timelime of creation according to the King James Bible:
1. Light
2. Sky & Ocean
3. Land
4. Sun, moon & stars
5. Birds & Fish
6. land Animals & Man
7. Rest
It states 7 days, However, a day in GODS time could be any amount of years. So that would explain the earth having rocks that are 4.5 Billion years old. And that could also explain the dinosaurs: GOD made the land animals on the 6th day well maybe in GODS time that could explain the dinosaurs were around for millions of years, THEN he man man after they become extinct. I hope you get what I'm trying to say here, I am trying to say that just because the bible says days, it doesn't have to mean 24 hours, it could mean 24+million years.
- Epoman
I was really glad to see this thread. Yes, I know there is a God and that He revealed Himself in Jesus Christ. I also know that this life is not all there is and that in this life we need to come to terms with God/Jesus Christ in order to enjoy this life and the other.
Catholics are Christians, they are the original Christian church. Everything else (every other Christian denomination anyway) has been a spin-off from Catholicism. Catholics don't think non-Catholics are going to hell. Actually, they teach that we can't and shouldn't judge who we think is going to hell.
Okay, I'm a Christian, so therefore I'm a Catholic? Mormons think they are Christians too, so I guess I'm a Mormon now too.
Do Catholics read the bible?
Do Catholics read the Bible? - Uh, YEAH! The Catholic Bible actually has more books than the Protestant Bible b/c when the Reformation and stuff was going on, if a book was not particularly favored by the public, or the leaders didn't want to follow or adhere to that part anymore, they left it out. At mass, we read part of the Bible every time. It's a 3 yr cycle, so at the end of 3 yrs, we will have read the whole Bible except for a few small parts.
Christian = Catholic? - Well Catholics are Christian. Protestants don't believe everything the CC teaches so no, they are not Catholics. And I don't THINK I am a Christian - I KNOW I am.
Wait, so your saying your a Christian Catholic? I was raised in Christian school and I have never heard of Christian Catholics. But I guess hyperlite in his last post summed it up best. I by the way am Protestant and I only read the King James Version. I personally hate all these new wave bibles that make it easier for the reader to understand, The Psalms just don't sound as beautiful in those new bibles.
- Epoman
Still waiting for someone to answer the simple question about the crucifixion recorded in the OT hundreds of years before it happened and why and how is it there.
I have been hesitating getting involved in this exchange. What I do know is that there is too much in this that is from tradition and not from the Bible. God left us the Bible - there is no need for man to add other things. Where will the adding end?
Jesus Himself stopped the crowd from giving His mother special honour. What is our justification for doing that?
Jesus told the Pharisees "You teach for commandments of God the traditions of man" and I see too much of that.
I don't need arguements for and against God to persuade me one way or another, all I do is open my eyes each day and God reveals himself.
Nothing so complex as life on earth can possible happen by chance :)
VERY WELL SAID! :)
- Epoman
I wasn't calling anybody a fruitcake Petey. It was just an observation as most people don't like fruitcake. Been on my mind why there are so many if no one likes them. Just a couple of unrelated random thoughts.
I didn't mean to incriminate you, Dan! NOTE TO ALL : Petey was the one calling others fruitcakes. Dan, for once, is totally innocent! :rofl; :rofl;
Hemodoc--
There were two people (Dan and I) and one "possible" entity (God) mentioned in my fruitcake comment. What makes you think I was calling you a fruitcake? Touchy, aren't we? Oh, well, you know what they say about the shoe fitting...
...and, yes, it goes on.
Petey just let is go. Some people's egos are so big they believe everything is about them. And you know what can happen to people like you and me if we talk to people that way. I'm trying to find out if there is a way to stop certain threads that you've posted on from coming up each time sone posts on it. I know about the "mark as read" option but I just don't want to see it at all.
Who said "Let it be..."?
One last question...anybody know how I go about converting from a Christian to a Catholic Jew?
One last question...anybody know how I go about converting from a Christian to a Catholic Jew?
I think you start by getting circu.....
Wait, never mind.
Here is the timelime of creation according to the King James Bible:The second version (Ge 2:5) creates plants then man then animals then woman.
1. Light
2. Sky & Ocean
3. Land
4. Sun, moon & stars
5. Birds & Fish
6. land Animals & Man
7. Rest
So if we're not allowed to discuss religion in a Is there a God Thread, why is it OK to discuss the bible?
Pasted quote:So if we're not allowed to discuss religion in a Is there a God Thread, why is it OK to discuss the bible?
Huh? Who said that?
Pasted quote:So if we're not allowed to discuss religion in a Is there a God Thread, why is it OK to discuss the bible?
Huh? Who said that?
You, RichardMel, Rocker, and Del are off topic. 'The question is: Is there a God.' The topic is not about religion, it is about God.
Sorry folks.
Mimi
Pasted Quote
But okarol, I don't want to fight. :rofl;
I believe there is a God. I do not believe that God has a gender, nor do I believe that God has human emotions. We have these and we try to understand God by attributing these human traits to God. This is what I meant by the post about shining the light upon the wall. God is far beyond the understanding of beings such as we are.Good words fc!
Some of you and I are different Christians. In fact I am sure you might not think I am not one. I believe in pacticing the teachings of Jesus in your everyday life. You might too, I don't know. I don't go to church, though. Never found one that believed as I do. Being a Christan is more than just attending church regularly and reading the bible, to me. Most organized religion is bogged down in doctrine.
I also don't think it is correct to judge others, not saying anyone here has. God gave us the ability to know what is right and what is wrong. The choice is yours to do either.
Like some others I believe there is purpose to our existence whether we are able to recognize it nor not. To me, one of the purposes of our existence is to interact with each other. How you do this is your choice.
My God is my God. My God is not better than anyone else's God, but to me. Everyone must find God in their own way, and must be willing to do so. God exists if you let God exist in you. If you don't want to, that is ok, you have this thing called free will.
I know this isn't how some believe, and if you are offended by how I believe know I did not tell you this to offend you or upset you.
And if I might quote Forrest Gump, "That's all I have to say about that."
I believe there is a God. I do not believe that God has a gender, nor do I believe that God has human emotions. We have these and we try to understand God by attributing these human traits to God. This is what I meant by the post about shining the light upon the wall. God is far beyond the understanding of beings such as we are.
Some of you and I are different Christians. In fact I am sure you might not think I am not one. I believe in pacticing the teachings of Jesus in your everyday life. You might too, I don't know. I don't go to church, though. Never found one that believed as I do. Being a Christan is more than just attending church regularly and reading the bible, to me. Most organized religion is bogged down in doctrine.
I also don't think it is correct to judge others, not saying anyone here has. God gave us the ability to know what is right and what is wrong. The choice is yours to do either.
Like some others I believe there is purpose to our existence whether we are able to recognize it nor not. To me, one of the purposes of our existence is to interact with each other. How you do this is your choice.
My God is my God. My God is not better than anyone else's God, but to me. Everyone must find God in their own way, and must be willing to do so. God exists if you let God exist in you. If you don't want to, that is ok, you have this thing called free will.
I know this isn't how some believe, and if you are offended by how I believe know I did not tell you this to offend you or upset you.
And if I might quote Forrest Gump, "That's all I have to say about that."
Kit, if you don't got it get it.
As for God and Allah being the same, I have indeed discussed this with Muslims. I did so when I worked in Pakistan some ten years ago. It was very clear that to a man they all regarded Allah as the same God as worshiped by Christians. Indeed they recognized Jesus as a prophet, although not The Prophet of course.
Kitkatz, I think I got it, but I don't know that I got it. :rofl;
Richard, I think you and I have just as much to add to this conversation as those who are religious. Without voices from the dissenting side, the conversation would be pretty flat.
Hemodoc, I have carefully read through your posts using scripture to prove the existence of god because of prophecies that came true. Even if I accepted the Bible as a reliable source, I don't derive any compelling sense that the scriptures really do provide clear cut prophesies of the crucifixion.
I am trying to understand why these writings that are so open to interpretation are so convincing. I just don't get it.
You have stated more than once that posters have not answered your "proof" based on these prophesies, but for me, there just isn't anything in the Bible, or in what you have selected to post from it, that offers proof of the existence of god. There simply isn't anything for me to answer. And to make your proof less compelling, I don't consider the Bible a reliable source of "truth" anyway. It is an interesting collection of writings worth reading, though.
Sorry.
Aleta
I am trying to understand why these writings that are so open to interpretation are so convincing. I just don't get it.
Why do I fell like I am about to make a mistake by getting involved here. :stressed; Hemo I've read tranlations of the jewish/romanized historian Josephus. I never saw one like the one you quoted. May I ask the translation source? Early Christans were refered to as "Jesus followers" at the time Josephus and I do not beleive his writings on this subject were contempoary with the events he wrote about. He was present in 63 AD when the Romans "sacked" while putting a revolt ( many of the people involved had become impatient that Jesus had not returned to "drive out the Romans. Others were non Christians who wanted to take their land back from the Romans). You may know this by "the destruction of the temple" and "the scattering" of the Jewish people through the world.
I am not trying to be critical or say you are wrong in the way you refer to the scriptures as a way to convert others, to have them accept God into their lives. These passages can be interpreted as the reader feels they see what they see. Someone else may not see what you see.
I am glad that you found God this way. But understand others may not.
I believe, and who knows it is just my way (my way is not better than anyone's way. It is just a way. I only present as something that work for others.
I think quoting the words of Jsus, and being faithful to them in your everyday actions is more important. Because as Jesus said, "the kingdom of God is within you and all around you." Ok, not an exact quote but I am at dialysis (typing one handed by the way and I apologise for the typing errors) and do not have a souce to quote exactly. Understanding history, both non Christian and Christian writtings, and physics. It is evident to me God exist. His kingdom is within us, if we wish to realise it.
You will find that Allah has no son, so Allah can absolutely not be the same God of the Christians who teach that Jesus is not only God, but the Son of God.
...
So, it is impossible that the God of the Christians and the God of Islam are the same not by my opinion but by the Koran itself. Allah, has no Son, and Allah is not the triune God of the Bible.
Ok, i'm not getting into a discussion about the bible, honestly haven't read the book since high school. i was raised a catholic and like most of us catholics i went to catholic primary and secondary school but my belief system is a lot more complex that just one word.... Catholic.
I believe there is a GOD, i also believe in evolution. To me they go hand in hand because the bible was written by man and who is to say that one day to GOD is 24 hours? I see GOD's influence in the shaping of the world, the ebb and flow of life even in extinction and evolution. It's all part of his master plan.
Now I don't believe in near death experiences (i've been clinically dead 4 times, no light nothing, why? well becuase it wasn't my time.) I believe the 'light' is your pupil reacting to light changes or the dr's pen light.
I don't believe in re-incarnation but i do believe that there are a lot of similarities in the buddhist doctrines and moral living, i even hold with some of the scientists/reasearchers who have found links that Jesus spent his missing years in Tibet/Nepal/India with the monks.
On the other hand i'm also open to other religions, i respect my mother in laws hindu faith and even pray with her and went temple when she's here. It may be seen as a sin but out of respect for her i respect her religion. I believe there really isn't so much difference between Christianity and Islam and the Jewish faiths (not as much as they are making out), we worship the same GOD just differently and we are the only ones who believe our messiah has already come.
So my beliefs are a lot more complicated than that, but that is a simplistic version.
Hemodoc I enjoy reading your posts. I don't find them invasive. I find them challenging and thought provoking.You will find that Allah has no son, so Allah can absolutely not be the same God of the Christians who teach that Jesus is not only God, but the Son of God.
...
So, it is impossible that the God of the Christians and the God of Islam are the same not by my opinion but by the Koran itself. Allah, has no Son, and Allah is not the triune God of the Bible.
On that basis, Jews worship a different God.
Their scriptures predict the coming of a messiah, who is not the son of God and neither has he yet come.
If there is a God then it's jennyc's vision of God, which includes Krishna, that's the only viable one.
Hemodoc I enjoy reading your posts. I don't find them invasive. I find them challenging and thought provoking.You will find that Allah has no son, so Allah can absolutely not be the same God of the Christians who teach that Jesus is not only God, but the Son of God.
...
So, it is impossible that the God of the Christians and the God of Islam are the same not by my opinion but by the Koran itself. Allah, has no Son, and Allah is not the triune God of the Bible.
On that basis, Jews worship a different God.
Their scriptures predict the coming of a messiah, who is not the son of God and neither has he yet come.
If there is a God then it's jennyc's vision of God, which includes Kṛṣṇa, that's the only viable one.
Ok, i'm not getting into a discussion about the bible, honestly haven't read the book since high school. i was raised a catholic and like most of us catholics i went to catholic primary and secondary school but my belief system is a lot more complex that just one word.... Catholic.
I believe there is a GOD, i also believe in evolution. To me they go hand in hand because the bible was written by man and who is to say that one day to GOD is 24 hours? I see GOD's influence in the shaping of the world, the ebb and flow of life even in extinction and evolution. It's all part of his master plan.
Now I don't believe in near death experiences (i've been clinically dead 4 times, no light nothing, why? well becuase it wasn't my time.) I believe the 'light' is your pupil reacting to light changes or the dr's pen light.
I don't believe in re-incarnation but i do believe that there are a lot of similarities in the buddhist doctrines and moral living, i even hold with some of the scientists/reasearchers who have found links that Jesus spent his missing years in Tibet/Nepal/India with the monks.
On the other hand i'm also open to other religions, i respect my mother in laws hindu faith and even pray with her and went temple when she's here. It may be seen as a sin but out of respect for her i respect her religion. I believe there really isn't so much difference between Christianity and Islam and the Jewish faiths (not as much as they are making out), we worship the same GOD just differently and we are the only ones who believe our messiah has already come.
So my beliefs are a lot more complicated than that, but that is a simplistic version.
(Zechariah) 13:6: And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
7: Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8: And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9: And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
The Messiah of Old Testament Scriptures will be the one that they have pierced and that has two wounds in His hands , wounded in the house of His friends. The Jews do indeed worship the same God as the Christians, they just don't YET understand all of the OT references to Jesus as their Messiah. In fact, many of the Rabbis have ascribed Jesus as a false prophet instead.
(Zechariah) 13:6: And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
7: Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8: And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9: And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
The Messiah of Old Testament Scriptures will be the one that they have pierced and that has two wounds in His hands , wounded in the house of His friends. The Jews do indeed worship the same God as the Christians, they just don't YET understand all of the OT references to Jesus as their Messiah. In fact, many of the Rabbis have ascribed Jesus as a false prophet instead.
Hemodoc, if you had not excluded the first part of your quote, it would be clear that the Bible in your quotation referred to a false prophet, not JC:
13:2 ... I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
God gets rid of the false prophets
13: 3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
Any that crop up later will get sorted by their parents
13:4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
They will be ashamed of their deceit and stop dressing like a real prophet
13:5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
They will admit they’re not a prophet but only a farmer
13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
They will admit they got their wounds innocently.
God goes on to kill two thirds of the false prophets’ followers but saves the remainder who swear allegiance.
To sum up:
The God of Islam is not the same as the Christian God because the former has no son.
The God of Judism is the same as the Christian God because although the Jews don't recognize Jesus as the son of God, all the rabbis in the world and all those who have died, have got it wrong. If they had interpreted the prophesies correctly, as Hemodoc has, Judism would accept Jesus as the son of God.
To sum up:
The God of Islam is not the same as the Christian God because the former has no son.
The God of Judism is the same as the Christian God because although the Jews don't recognize Jesus as the son of God, all the rabbis in the world and all those who have died, have got it wrong. If they had interpreted the prophesies correctly, as Hemodoc has, Judism would accept Jesus as the son of God.
This is all WAY over my head. I've never heard of some of this stuff. I sound like an idiot. Sorry.nursewratchet, you are not an idoit. They are just on their own tangent.
Dear Stoday, I detect some sarcasm in this post,I was not being sarcastic: that was my honest summary of Hemodoc’s rather long passage as I understood it. I’m sorry to say that Hemodoc’s response does not add anything to the argument about the identity of God in the three main religions. Happily other posters, more eloquent than I, have done so.
Let me be the first to avoid disappointing Willowtreewren et al.
Hell will freeze over before Hemodoc and I can agree on these issues. Nevertheless, I respect his right to hold and express his religious views and so I do not use dishonest arguments to support my side.Dear Stoday, I detect some sarcasm in this post,I was not being sarcastic: that was my honest summary of Hemodoc’s rather long passage as I understood it. I’m sorry to say that Hemodoc’s response does not add anything to the argument about the identity of God in the three main religions. Happily other posters, more eloquent than I, have done so.
Yet again, Hemodoc leaves out parts of the story when quoting the Indonesian “Allah” issue so that he can draw the opposite conclusion from that of a disinterested observer. The facts are:
1) The Indonesian Muslims got the government to declare that only they could use the word “Allah” to refer to God.
2) The Indonesian Christians took the issue to court, saying that they had precedent to use “Allah” for God and thus the word could not be reserved for Muslims only.
3) The Christians won the court case and that resulted in the disturbances.
In my experience, only someone who has difficulty supporting his views uses dishonest forms of argument.
Oh no, I am setting myself up for trouble here. I have been talking to a Muslim friend to understand his view on our conversations here. In his Arabic speaking country, all Christians and Jewish use the word Allah for God. It is an Arabic word that any Arabic speaking person (Muslim, Christian or Jew) says. Allah al-ab means God the Father. My friend is slightly amused at all the controversy. He says "God" when speaking English, "Allah" when talking to his family and "Dieu" when speaking French. Three names for the same God. There are many times in Christian churches we say "Yahweh" in songs or prayers. It is Hebrew for "I am" in the book of Genesis and is used when God revels himself to Moses. So many names, so many stories and three major religions from one small town, Jerusalem. Two religions went on to honor Jesus as a prophet and one believed He was the Son of God. To this day, a Muslim family (for many centuries) holds the key to the door of the most holy place - Sepulchre, thought to be where Jesus is buryed. Now, like Epoman, I willl sit back and wait for the boxing gloves to come on :boxing; and the rumble to continue.
This is all WAY over my head. I've never heard of some of this stuff. I sound like an idiot. Sorry.nursewratchet, you are not an idoit. They are just on their own tangent.
Peter, (hemodoc) you are discussing dogma and doctrin of the various religons. Christrianity sprang from Judaism. Jesus was a jew, remember. In his time, it was debated by his follows as to wether non jews could be included as his followers. This debate went on for the next 50 years. Yes, you will find pasages in the bible refering to this topic. Why? Beuse it was a" hot topic" among them at the time. So, was the subject, "Is this the same God?' The result, a set of "I beliive, this is what we should do" letters passed between the various groups of Christans. Some of these are in the Christian bibles (I say "bibles", as the standard Protestant bible and the Chatholic bible do not contain the the same texts. The Protetestants, felt some of the texts or books were not represenative of their beliefs.) So, quoting scripture to bolster your point is only saying "I agree with the author". Is that wrong? No, this is the way you believe. Your sources reflect your views. They would after all, how else could make your point. Those who accept these beliefs, feel they are the correct way the other way is incorrect. Who is to say that that the other interpration of of what it ment to be a good and faithful follower of Jesus is wrong? The bible? Which bible? The associated commentaries by those that accept a particle view point? Yes, you (the individual) must find what "speaks" to you.
Stosy, you are correct, when you say if the the first century jews had accepted Jesus as their messiah, things would be different. They did not. A new religon sprang up, it included non jews and people like hemodoc and I find it is what we prefer. We might disagree on how to believe in our faith, but that is what it is. Faith in the princaples of what it means to worship God.
But is it the same God? Well the Chritians accept the same "texts", to a point. I refer to te "old Testament". Tge difference is how they view this God annd worship this God.
Peter tou have found what "speaks" to you. Good, but don't be upset if others do not accept those beliefs.
I think it has been a good exchange of views.
As for the topic, is the God of the Christians the the same as Allah. Mohamed took was well versed in both the Christian and belief systems (their dogma and doctrin as well a monothiestic God) but it is believed God spoke to him telling him their views of God and how to worish God were incorrect. The Koran mentions Abraham, jewish profets and Jesus. These people contribute to the religon. The Muslems believe both the Jews and Christians are impoperly worshipng God. Momhamed was given the correct way to do so by God.
The Muslims in Indonesia are upset because for Christians to use the word is an insult to their beliefs. In their belief this a use of their religous word by those who do not accept their beliefs.
But does this prove one way or another their God is the same God? You would have to read their religious writings. What do they say?
This is about what you believe. A the teaching of a certain relion or branch (sect) of tgat religon onnes yoou accept as devine.You must decide.
Of course you feel the beliefs you accept are the correct way and because you do, you wish to share them with and convience others
that this is the proper way to vview and worship God. Nothing with that. You might convience someone to see things your way. Tge You" I refer to here is not a particular poster here but whoever reads this.
I apologise for typoraphical error ( hope none are missed as to change my meaning). I am typing this one haned, one chrarter a time, on a touch screen key board (it wants to skip letters, caps lock, and use the letter I did touch but one above below or next to the the one I've touched. Of ourse I have to pause so that mmy blood presure can be taken. In ahoort it not easy to type suchh a post.
Enjoiy, share, discuss. Be nice to each othher when doing so.
Peter, (hemodoc) you are discussing dogma and doctrin of the various religons. Christrianity sprang from Judaism. Jesus was a jew, remember. In his time, it was debated by his follows as to wether non jews could be included as his followers. This debate went on for the next 50 years. Yes, you will find pasages in the bible refering to this topic. Why? Beuse it was a" hot topic" among them at the time. So, was the subject, "Is this the same God?' The result, a set of "I beliive, this is what we should do" letters passed between the various groups of Christans. Some of these are in the Christian bibles (I say "bibles", as the standard Protestant bible and the Chatholic bible do not contain the the same texts. The Protetestants, felt some of the texts or books were not represenative of their beliefs.) So, quoting scripture to bolster your point is only saying "I agree with the author". Is that wrong? No, this is the way you believe. Your sources reflect your views. They would after all, how else could make your point. Those who accept these beliefs, feel they are the correct way the other way is incorrect. Who is to say that that the other interpration of of what it ment to be a good and faithful follower of Jesus is wrong? The bible? Which bible? The associated commentaries by those that accept a particle view point? Yes, you (the individual) must find what "speaks" to you.
All Hemodoc has ever wanted is for those who aren't sure to pick up the Bible and read it.
I'd like opinions on this, please. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that planet Earth is the only place where God has seen fit to create life. How do you think people will think about religon, and God if and when we make contact with another planet?
Me, I don't know. That's why I asked all of you.
What a tread..... I wish I could understand english and then the bible would be easy.....
Are we done yet ????
Even science has to stand back in awe at the earth. It is a miracle that water exists and air and that we stay in rotation with the Sun and other planets and that we have not been destroyed by another meteorite.
Has anyone else been watching the History channel this week? It is on Revelation. One super volcano and we are done.
If we find other life (people) on planets then I will question my faith in one God through Jesus Christ. Until then I'm pretty set.
QuoteI'd like opinions on this, please. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that planet Earth is the only place where God has seen fit to create life. How do you think people will think about religon, and God if and when we make contact with another planet?
Me, I don't know. That's why I asked all of you.
From my vantage point the Bible doesn't mention other worlds since it was written by people in a culture who thought the stars rested on a dome that arched over the sky. They had no concept that stars were suns or galaxies. In fact, the word planet derives from wanderer because the early people could not explain the wandering "stars" they saw in the night sky. Because these early peoples (whose emerging technology included the spade and plow) had no concept of other planets, neither did their gods. Gods as creations that spring from the creativity of human thought can only have as much knowledge as their creators can imagine.
I have a question for those who are well versed in the biblical scriptures. My husband has asked many people including many religious leaders and they have not been able to give him an answer. Adam and Eve were the first people on earth (God created them) t. They had 2 sons Cain and Abel. Cain murdered Abel and he was banished into an far off land and took unto himself a wife. If Adam and Eve were the first people created when God made the world where did the wife come from?? There were no other people in the world. How did the world populate if only 2 people to start with - their children had to have had sex with each other to create more people?? I have lots of other questions as well.
That's so true willowtree. Heaven is supposed to be up in the sky?? Why is it all outer space there. I really and truly believe that at some point we will come in contact with some type of life out there.
I'd like opinions on this, please. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that planet Earth is the only place where God has seen fit to create life. How do you think people will think about religon, and God if and when we make contact with another planet?
Me, I don't know. That's why I asked all of you.
I have a question for those who are well versed in the biblical scriptures. My husband has asked many people including many religious leaders and they have not been able to give him an answer. Adam and Eve were the first people on earth (God created them) t. They had 2 sons Cain and Abel. Cain murdered Abel and he was banished into an far off land and took unto himself a wife. If Adam and Eve were the first people created when God made the world where did the wife come from?? There were no other people in the world. How did the world populate if only 2 people to start with - their children had to have had sex with each other to create more people?? I have lots of other questions as well.
That's so true willowtree. Heaven is supposed to be up in the sky?? Why is it all outer space there. I really and truly believe that at some point we will come in contact with some type of life out there.
Hemodoc, do you have an answer to my question???
Del, how insightful. I'd never thought of that. When does the gender become definited in a chld? At conception? Maybe male/female had not fully evolved with Adam and Eve and Cain and Abel? Maybe they propogated by having sex with each other? Often I her people quote "Adam and Eve" not "Adam and Steve". Is that possible or is that just a same sex attraction slur?
But how did his sister get to a far off land???
Oh for goodness sake! Really!!! Who cares whether it was true or not. Why does it matter. It's just a story.
Well, that's my opinion anyway.
Oh for goodness sake! Really!!! Who cares whether it was true or not. Why does it matter. It's just a story.
Well, that's my opinion anyway.
I don't mean the whole thing is 'just a story' but bits of it are. In my mind you just can't take the bible literally - or you wouldn't be shaving the hairs on your face, and you wouldn't plant certains crops in feilds. I guess I just mean that my faith is my faith, and I don't need the bible to prove it to me. 2000 years is a dman long time, and there's no way I would expect people to live or think the same way I do in 2000 years. It would make me or them wrong in any way.
:banghead; :banghead; :banghead;
Before I go, and this time I will be gone. I just want to say, it isn't funny it is sad acually. So much I'd like to "unload" in the "Is there a God" thread, but it goes against my princiapls to do so. Besides if I did, it would just bog everything down in an agument over "doctrin and dogma" and what the scriptures say.
I wanted to discuss things. Seems some people are such fragle Christians that if the bible doesn't say it then it dosen't mater. I can not see the other side of the moon, there for it does not exit. There is such much other tought to consider. I got tired of pointing out that the historical record should also be considered and what is in the bible is not really involitable because it has been altered by translationa nd inteerpration durng translation. That just because it is it in the bible doesn't mean it is the only thing to think about. What about non Christian views on moral subjects?
For FC -- :cuddle; Some of this is very frustrating. I believe what I believe. And I believe a Christian would be the first to accept all of God's (or whoever) creatures and that we are suppose to love each other - not just Christians who think exactly like we do. I judge no one on their believes and it dumbfounds me how many people do judge others. A discussion is to share ideas and open up new thoughts that can be explored. I know the cave men existed. I have been waiting to see how some justify their existence. Like FC, there is so much I would like to share, but this has kind of hit a wall. "Fragile Christian" - interesting phase. I am so confident in what I believe that I can allow others to believe what they think is right for them. So, FC and I are going to go sit in the corner together and watch the ongoing tutorial. Maybe I will learn something :thumbup;
Science and Religion don't have to agree... for me they don't agree at all.
Science proves the way the Bible tells how the Earth was made to be false.
I believe 100% in science...
Angie <3
But how did his sister get to a far off land???
Dear Del, that is a little different question than who did he marry. In fact, the Bible does not answer all questions that we could ask. If you are asking for a direct answer to that question, I will simply state I don't know, it is not specified how far away Cain moved. One day's travel, 10 days, a hundred days. Just not specified.
However, the Bible testifies that Adam lived for 950 years and had had sons and daughters. It is likely that the earth was populated quite rapidly after the creation according to the Bible. The Bible does not also specify how old Cain was when he married as well. With hundreds of years of time to do this, traveling to a far land would be no more limited than it was a few centuries back when we had Marco Polo travel in his short lifetime all the way to China and back again.
So, in short, I do not have any specific answer to how Cain or his wife got to a far land, but it was not a hindrance to those over the last few hundred years to accomplish great travels without modern travel. The Bible states that He created the earth to be inhabited, and it looks like it was very early on after the creation even by a second generation person, Cain and his sister, or niece, whoever she was, it was populate even in far away lands.
But how did his sister get to a far off land???
Dear Del, that is a little different question than who did he marry. In fact, the Bible does not answer all questions that we could ask. If you are asking for a direct answer to that question, I will simply state I don't know, it is not specified how far away Cain moved. One day's travel, 10 days, a hundred days. Just not specified.
However, the Bible testifies that Adam lived for 950 years and had had sons and daughters. It is likely that the earth was populated quite rapidly after the creation according to the Bible. The Bible does not also specify how old Cain was when he married as well. With hundreds of years of time to do this, traveling to a far land would be no more limited than it was a few centuries back when we had Marco Polo travel in his short lifetime all the way to China and back again.
So, in short, I do not have any specific answer to how Cain or his wife got to a far land, but it was not a hindrance to those over the last few hundred years to accomplish great travels without modern travel. The Bible states that He created the earth to be inhabited, and it looks like it was very early on after the creation even by a second generation person, Cain and his sister, or niece, whoever she was, it was populate even in far away lands.
So what you are saying is just your interpretation of the Bible it is not based on any fact.
I am going to go sit I the corner with paris and fc too!! This has become a bit "silly". If people would just have an open mind and accept others for what they are this world would be a much more peaceful place. I feel secure enough in my own beliefs that I don't need anybody pushing their beliefs down my throat (I would never do it to anybody). Just going to church and professing to be a born again Christian does not make anybody a better person than anybody else. Look at all the corruption in all the churches (yes all!!)
Science is facts. Fossils and other things can be dated back millions of years. There is scientific evidence for most things in this world. If fossils can be dated back millions of years than there must have been a big gap from when the world was first created to when the books of the old testament were written, if the bible is to be taken literally.
My philosophy on life is to live my life the way I want (as long as I don't intentionally do something to hurt another person) and believe the things I want and allow others to do the same. Sure we can discuss why or why not we believe the things we do but not try to make others turn over to our way of thinking. Just because one person thinks something is the truth that does not mean another person has to. One way to turn people off from even listening is to present your way as the only way!!
Move over fc and paris to make room in the corner for me!! I'll just watch from now on.
I just can't, as a born again Christian, sit back and just let people believe what they want to without telling the truth as I'm taught. Any Sunday that I go to Church we are asked to spread the Word and to invite a friend to church. We believe that we are saving your life eternally if you just accept Jesus as your Saviour. I just can't let someone say they just believe in a higher power and their god is love and they are good and they know right from wrong and they will just live on a star after they die. Its not true folks.
I have a good friend that is Sikh (Seek? East Indian) and I don't even know how to approach her. Their religion is really superstitious. They don't drive for 6 weeks after having a baby.... they bargin with their god like if you do this I'll do this. She took 3 days off work to go pray at their church because her baby got well. It is just so ingrained in her that I am just speechless.
Once several years ago I hired a very intelligent but overly technical man to instruct some of our technical courses. After a few week, people started catching me in hallways, etc. always commenting something like this: "Oh Dan, I wish you would teach some of those courses again. That Bill Guy is just so intelligent that no one can understand a thing he is talking about."
the Darwinian theory of evolution is simply wrong.
The point of my last post was that no matter how smart the dude was, without the proper communications skills, as a teacher, he was accomplishing nothing.
How is this? If we came from Apes then why are there still Apes?
The point of my last post was that no matter how smart the dude was, without the proper communications skills, as a teacher, he was accomplishing nothing.
the Darwinian theory of evolution is simply wrong.
No it’s not. Your understanding of it is wrong. Even that most conservative of Churches, Rome, and its Pope, accept that evolution occurred.
The entire "science" of abiogenesis, or how inorganic materials brewed organic materials that suddenly sprang to life is in deep trouble.
That has nothing to do with evolution. Evolution is about the origin of the species, not the origin of life. So it’s invalid to cite issues concerning the origin of life as invalidating evolution.
when people talk about science and the theory of evolution, it is not in the least a solidified or universal theory.
In the 150 years since Darwin published his book “On the Origin of Species” not one example has been found that conflicts with evolution. Not one.
Many are unaware that Darwinian evolution, that of slow gradual changes is not at all supported in the fossil record.
Evolution does not say that change is gradual. It says that to be adopted by the species population, each change is minor and must be an advantage to the species in its environment. With time, and environmental separation from the parent species, a new species may develop. We can see evolution taking place in our lifetime as antibiotics become unusable because bacteria have evolved immunity.
The evidence for the fact of evolution does not rest only, or even principally, on the fossil record.
We do not in the least see gradual changes over time resulting in large differences. Instead, the fossil record shows that species remain remarkably the same over their time on earth.
Of course. That’s how evolution works. A species arises and gives birth to others but doesn’t itself necessarily die out. So we see conifer trees that evolved early alongside deciduous trees that evolved later.
The wonder of a new life such as my new grand daughter should make all wonder on how these things could be by chance alone.
Evolution never said that life evolved by chance. It evolved by the survival of the fittest.
MY own thoughts on this subject are that if God created man, he made a very poor job of it. Everything is made so that it’s only just good enough on the whole. That means it’s not good enough for some, who consequently suffer. Back pain for example; death giving birth and so on. An engineer builds in safety margins; God does not. Or rather there’s no evolutionary mechanism that gives an incentive for safety margins.
How is this? If we came from Apes then why are there still Apes?
We didn't come from apes.
There was a common ancestor from which we and apes evolved.
The point of my last post was that no matter how smart the dude was, without the proper communications skills, as a teacher, he was accomplishing nothing.
Dan is saying he doesn't understand what you are writing.
How is this? If we came from Apes then why are there still Apes? For that matter do vegetarians eat animal cookies?
God was talking to a scientist and the scientist was saying it was no big deal to create people from dirt and that he could do it scientifically. God said go ahead. So, the scientist picked up a glob of dirt and God said "wait a minute.... make your own dirt".
:rofl;
Dear Rerun, unfortunately, most people that say that they believe in evolution do not actually understand what paleontology says about the fossil record and the lack of transitional forms between the fossils recovered. There are so many examples of incorrect family trees such as the evolution of horses. Some are outright frauds. Here is a discussion on this issue.
http://us1.harunyahya.com/Detail/T/F98V7T9P299/productId/19833/THE_EVOLUTION_OF_THE_HORSE_SERIES_IS_A_FRAUD
Peter..... this article has the same flavor as the previous article.... It amazes me what we can do with words.... and How words can persuade thoughts.... I will agree that there has been many so called truths that have been shown to be non truths.... both in Science , evolution, and religion... we find new answers every day.... just because it written in words does not make it the truth...... You and I know that as most people should.... Christian Science people have some beliefs that are really scary..... Some social scientist do as well.... and Some religion is just not the truth... Is anything the truth......... almost everything can be disputed.... DNA has been a real eye opener but it might be proven wrong in the future.... The one think That I will agree with is we don't have all the answers.... not in the bible and not in science... where did all this " Matter "come from .... so called dirt..... That is something none of will ever know..... For me I believe in evolution, why not .... things change all the time... just because we don't have all the pieces doesn't mean that we were not correct is our observation with change.... Change is a positive notion.... and again everything that I have wrote here is just that... words and thoughts which mean nothing.... except to us......
God was talking to a scientist and the scientist was saying it was no big deal to create people from dirt and that he could do it scientifically. God said go ahead. So, the scientist picked up a glob of dirt and God said "wait a minute.... make your own dirt".
:rofl;
Dear Rerun, what a great segue to the entire issue of the big bang. A simple question with no answer is, where did the matter come from in the big bang. NO ONE has the answer to that. They complain that I can't explain where God came from, but they likewise have no answer for where all of the dirt came from that made all of the things we are and see. We believe in the beginning God, they believe in the beginning dirt. Both turn out to be matters of belief and faith.
Another of my thoughts. If there is a God, how could he create this: Click for video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMG-LWyNcAs)
Application for Sainthood:2thumbsup; :2thumbsup;
All IHD memberd who want to be considered for canonization, please submit your name along with a 20,000 word essay describing the miracles you’ve perform and/or other reasons that you should be considered.
Footnote: I did not know Epoman. He was gone long before I ever knew I had a kidney. Today I went back and read some of his writings in a different light. I’d never pretend to KNOW his thoughts but, correct me if I am wrong people who knew him, I saw a slight glint in the eye in many of his postings. I have no idea his original intent, but I could guess as much as anyone else and I feel like he meant “discuss”. Never once did I think it was a platform for zealots to come in and proselytize.
And please, do not confuse my comment regarding communication skills with my belief or not in evolution. :rofl;
:shy;I only went to church because I liked the music.... :shy;
:bandance;Anybocy know why Southern Baptist (that was me once) won'tskpy prystanding up? :bandance;
I am glad your here Rob...... after reading that I got scared of those big words......zealots to come in and proselytize..... had to look them up........ not as smart as the rest of you.....
here I have a bag for you..... :popcorn; :popcorn;
God was talking to a scientist and the scientist was saying it was no big deal to create people from dirt and that he could do it scientifically. God said go ahead. So, the scientist picked up a glob of dirt and God said "wait a minute.... make your own dirt".
:rofl;
Dear Rerun, what a great segue to the entire issue of the big bang. A simple question with no answer is, where did the matter come from in the big bang. NO ONE has the answer to that. They complain that I can't explain where God came from, but they likewise have no answer for where all of the dirt came from that made all of the things we are and see. We believe in the beginning God, they believe in the beginning dirt. Both turn out to be matters of belief and faith.
They believe it to be the Higgs Bosson particle or more aptly named "The God Particle" it's what they are searching for in the 'smasher'. It's really cool. Kind of like science and religion meeting in the middle.
Dear Hemodoc, Let’s keep it simple. The question raised by this thread is “Is there a God?” The purpose of the discussion about evolution is that if evolution happened, then God didn’t create life in the way the Bible describes and may not exist. On the other hand, if life were created, God probably does exist.
It’s not possible to say how life started because it happened so long ago that any sign of it has long been obliterated. However it is not necessary to know how life started to disprove the literal Bible story. It’s only necessary to show that evolution occurred. Time has not obliterated the record of evolution.
The requirements to show that evolution occurred are very strict. It says that to be adopted by the species population, each change is minor and must be an advantage to the species in its environment. With time, and environmental separation from the parent species, a new species may develop.
I have said that in 150 years, nothing has been found that cannot be explained by evolution. Hemodoc says there are thousands of examples, but, I'm sorry to say, fails to quote even one.
Finally I never said that man was poorly designed. I said that if God designed man, he made a poor job of it because the design was barely adequate and failed for part of the population. But that is exactly what you’d expect from evolution. Take kidneys for example. They only have to perform a little worse on average and the whole population would die out. All those things the kidney does it has to do otherwise we would not have evolved.
Another of my thoughts. If there is a God, how could he create this: Click for video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMG-LWyNcAs)
Application for Sainthood
All IHD members who want to be considered for canonization, please submit your name along with a 20,000 word essay describing the miracles you’ve perform and/or other reasons that you should be considered.
Footnote: I did not know Epoman. He was gone long before I ever knew I had a kidney. Today I went back and read some of his writings in a different light. I’d never pretend to KNOW his thoughts but, correct me if I am wrong people who knew him, I saw a slight glint in the eye in many of his postings. I have no idea his original intent, but I could guess as much as anyone else and I feel like he meant “discuss”. Never once did I think it was a platform for zealots to come in and proselytize.
And please, do not confuse my comment regarding communication skills with my belief or not in evolution. :rofl;
:shy;I only went to church because I liked the music.... :shy;
:bandance;Anybocy know why Southern Baptist (that was me once) won'tskpy prystanding up? :bandance;
Dear Hemodoc, Let’s keep it simple. The question raised by this thread is “Is there a God?” The purpose of the discussion about evolution is that if evolution happened, then God didn’t create life in the way the Bible describes and may not exist. On the other hand, if life were created, God probably does exist.
It’s not possible to say how life started because it happened so long ago that any sign of it has long been obliterated. However it is not necessary to know how life started to disprove the literal Bible story. It’s only necessary to show that evolution occurred. Time has not obliterated the record of evolution.
The requirements to show that evolution occurred are very strict. It says that to be adopted by the species population, each change is minor and must be an advantage to the species in its environment. With time, and environmental separation from the parent species, a new species may develop.
I have said that in 150 years, nothing has been found that cannot be explained by evolution. Hemodoc says there are thousands of examples, but, I'm sorry to say, fails to quote even one.
Finally I never said that man was poorly designed. I said that if God designed man, he made a poor job of it because the design was barely adequate and failed for part of the population. But that is exactly what you’d expect from evolution. Take kidneys for example. They only have to perform a little worse on average and the whole population would die out. All those things the kidney does it has to do otherwise we would not have evolved.
Another of my thoughts. If there is a God, how could he create this: Click for video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMG-LWyNcAs)
just don't run over my foot in that damned thing....
:popcorn;
hahahaha Catholics ARE Christians. A Christian is anyone that believes in Jesus Christ. Catholics are a type of Christian. Just like Protestants, and Orthodox Christians, and Evangelists...etc. Some of these "terms" can be broken down further too. Like Protestants can be broken down into Anglicans, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Calvanists...etc
Epoman: Nobody is saying that we evolved from apes. That is a hugely common misconception. We did however evolve from a similar ancestor, that does not exist anymore. Evolution usually occurs through the splitting of species. So a common ancestor (probably way way way before humans and monkeys or gorillas or whatever) would have been divided somehow, whether it be geographically or through a disease or one of another million possibilities. This separation would have caused this common ancestor to diverge genetically. Now it doesn't work like "the trees were tall, so their babies were born taller"...its actually that due to random mutations, the babies that were born taller were able to survive and carry on their genes... so the same would have happened. Maybe in one part of the world, the smarter "ape-like creatures" survived, whereas in the other part, the more limber, and stronger ape-like creatures survived...and you have to remember this happened over millions of years. We've seen so much evolution over the past couple of hundred years, that this is not that much of a surprise. Look at how tall people are now. Look at skin colours. Look at the ability of humans to learn...
Evolution is a proven fact, through examining genetic codes, and the genomes of animals. Take the influenza virus for example. It evolves every year...
Now I don't know if God exists or not. I think thats the point. We're not supposed to know for sure, we have to have faith. That's why the notion of God is still around, and always will be. If you believe, then hes there. If you don't believe and need proof, then you'll never get it, because you shouldn't need proof to know that he's there. It's the perfect way to make people believe.
I also think that the reason humans need a God, is because it is part of our genetics. That's why everywhere in the world, each society has some sort of God or religion. It's a survival tool. The holes we can't explain, God fills those in for us. It's part of our cognitive behaviour to need a God. It hurts to try and think that out of nothingness, something was created randomly. Or even there never was nothingness, and there has always been something there. Or things like infinite. To think that the universe goes on forever. Mind boggling. But that's because I'm using a human brain to try and grasp these ideas. My brain isn't "hard-wired" to do so. I like the idea of a God starting everything, because it's simple, and it explains everything.
And if I'm going to burn in Hell for thinking this way, well then so be it. I don't believe in a Hell, so I'm not really scared. I think that when I die, theres going to be nothingness. Just like when I go to sleep and can't remember my dreams from the night before. It's as if that time between when I was awake, went to sleep, and then woke up again, never really happened. Or if I drink too much and can't remember what happened the night before ( ;D ) there's a void...a nothingness. Is that depressing? no because I have tomorrow to look forward to. I don't need an eternal afterlife. All I need is to make the most of the time I've got here on Earth.
And as for religion, I like the idea of a church, because it is somewhere I can go, the people are nice, the message is relatively uplifting, and the morals are good. Its a good setting to raise a family, and live an honest and fulfilling life. But that doesn't mean I buy it all. In the back of my head, I try to be a good person because of the whole "heaven and hell" thing, even though I don't really believe it. But what's the harm in that? Although, the main reason I dont break the law, is because I'm afraid of the judicial system, I still have a conscious...where does that come from? probably from my Christian up-bringing. So yeah, I'll take my kids to church...But I'll also teach them the wonders of science...
And as for Jimmy Hoffa, he's probably living it up right now with Tupac, Elvis, and JFK
With the intelligence humans have and the power that our brain is capable of and the complexities of the human body, I don't see how anyone could think that we evolved.
You said:QuoteI think that when I die, theres going to be nothingness. Just like when I go to sleep and can't remember my dreams from the night before. It's as if that time between when I was awake, went to sleep, and then woke up again, never really happened. Or if I drink too much and can't remember what happened the night before ( ;D ) there's a void...a nothingness. Is that depressing?
Yes, I find it very depressing, when you have your first child you will understand, until then you will not, believe me your views on everything change when you become a parent. I would hate to have your beliefs and know that once I or my son dies, we will never see each other again. I like the fact that in my belief I know that even after our deaths my son and I will re-unite. With your beliefs you will NEVER know the secrets of the universe, you will not be able to ask questions that have pondered man since the the beginning of time and get factual answers. In my belief I will be able to get answers to all my questions.
With your belief you have EVERYTHING to lose. If you are wrong you will go to hell, If you are right then you have lost nothing. But in my belief I have everything to gain, If I am correct I have a paradise to look forward to when I die, if I am wrong then I have lost NOTHING, I will simple cease to exist and be void. Think about it for a second. If there is a GOD (which obviously I believe there is) then by you not having faith, and believing in evolution then you are basically denouncing GOD and therefor forsaking him. Which will not allow you to enter the kingdom of heaven.
When I was in college in the ancient days of the 1980's, that is what was taught and that is what we believed. But not today, you can't say that evolution is based on randomness, it is just not politically correct.
So, how do we go from a one celled organism, I will give that to you for the sake of argument even though the "science" of abiogenesis is really getting hammered the more we learn, and then develop all of our systems by random chance. Sir Fred Hoyle understood this quite well and voted against the prevailing beliefs due to too little time, too little matter, but I will give you the primordial soup cell and you get to go from there with natural selection. Many say that evolution is not a random process, but a little understanding of math would clear up that myth quickly. Natural selection acts up random mutations. When you look at this process, random mutations are the independent variable and natural selection is the dependent variable. In other words, no random mutations, no natural selection to select.
So, how do we get these incredible systems and organs and creatures through a random process of random mutations? The creative force of the evolution theory is random mutations, not natural selection. So, how do we get from the soup to the stew so to speak? How do we know this?
Dan, did you read this Epoman post. So much for the proselytism admonition. I agree, I don't think you did not know Epoman. Neither did I but instead I have let his words speak again. Looks like some pretty good proselytism from Epoman himself. Would he be welcome on this thread anymore?
Thanks for the offer, but the Bible calls all of those that are saved as saints, I'll pass on the Vatican's version and go with the real McCoy.
When I was in college in the ancient days of the 1980's, that is what was taught and that is what we believed. But not today, you can't say that evolution is based on randomness, it is just not politically correct.
So, how do we go from a one celled organism, I will give that to you for the sake of argument even though the "science" of abiogenesis is really getting hammered the more we learn, and then develop all of our systems by random chance. Sir Fred Hoyle understood this quite well and voted against the prevailing beliefs due to too little time, too little matter, but I will give you the primordial soup cell and you get to go from there with natural selection. Many say that evolution is not a random process, but a little understanding of math would clear up that myth quickly. Natural selection acts up random mutations. When you look at this process, random mutations are the independent variable and natural selection is the dependent variable. In other words, no random mutations, no natural selection to select.
So, how do we get these incredible systems and organs and creatures through a random process of random mutations? The creative force of the evolution theory is random mutations, not natural selection. So, how do we get from the soup to the stew so to speak? How do we know this?
It sure is interesting how things change over time.... What we learned in School yesterday may be very different that what is believe today..... was it wrong back them ..... not really... or was it..... is it correct now?... will it change again? I hope so.... I am very excited to see corrections or at least changes.... It is quite possible that the bible maybe wrong too.... at least for todays thoughts.... maybe not... re thinking things is ok.... even if its the bible and even if its Science.... evolution is a pretty basic term and can get very technical ..... I too have read many things that once was taught to me and others about evolution and now it is question.....modified... That is a good thing.... we are alway getting a better understanding of things... it is very possible to have evolution and a God...... why not..... Is the bible the only evidence of God... I sure hope not.... I would like to have more evidence than just a book written many many years ago.... we keep finding new evidence which supports new ideas on evolution and other scientific concepts... why do we not have continue evidence that their is a God....
So Peter I welcome the information that you can give us that will support the idea of a God other than using the bible..... or other written documents from that time period.....
Best of Luck
Kathy
Why not ask some members who did know Epoman? Stop trying to guess what he said and interpreting his words. There are many members who can tell you all about him, his wit, his anger, his passion, his loves.
Go back to the orginal question. I love hearing other's views, but I think we need to respect what each believes and not spend so much energy trying to "prove" who is right and who is wrong. So back to the topic, Is there a God? I think some are leary of posting because they don't want to get into a huge debate or lecture.
Seriously,Del!!!!!! You are not very good at keeping me in the corner! And you are a teacher!! I think I may be done now. (no promises!)
Peter, you see this from your own egotistical point of view. As I see it, you and Rerun and maybe another are making the other people unwelcome. I'm sure Epoman would be welcome as long as you say so. Please recal that I said I was guessing from the tone of his writing what he may have intended. You said you knew what he intended just as you know all the answer about everyone god.
I am not welcome here and I will not return again. Believe me I'll live without your relitious advice or your fake hemo dialysis advice (much of which I did copy and talk to my Nephrologist about.)
So we have the answer....... Yes there is a God...... And God is where he needs to be.... in the minds of the believers..... I am happy now..... I bet epoman would have been happy too....as he was a believer....
the one thing that I can say is ... if it makes you a better person and a more happy person.... then believe...
Peter I can see from your writings that you are very passionate about the subject and you have found great happiness living your life as a believer..... I admire you... and I envy you with your new founded happiness.... I too have found passion and happiness.... more so as I have became older..... but mine is not in God... Mine is in the better understanding of our world.... Science to me is my salvation....
thx for sharing..... kathy
QuoteThanks for the offer, but the Bible calls all of those that are saved as saints, I'll pass on the Vatican's version and go with the real McCoy.
I really had to laugh when I read this!!! I live in a "Bible" belt area and know many so called saved or born again Christians. They are by no means saints!!! A lot of them have no problem gossiping, making fun of other people, fooling around with other people's spouses(as long as they don't get caught). Some of them have no problems stealing or taking money from the church or innocent people. We have a neighbour who is one of those so called born again Christians. Before that he spent time in prison for raping his daughter. Now he is a leader and Sunday School teacher in the church!! Takes more than professing to being saved or a born again Christian to be a saint I think!!!
I found this on Wikipedia. Thought it would be interesting.
Though there are many important differences of interpretation and opinion of the Bible on which Christianity is based, Christians share a set of beliefs that they hold as essential to their faith.[21]
Religious Tolerance claims that:
* Most liberal Christian denominations, secularists, and public opinion pollsters define "Christian" very broadly as any person or group who sincerely believes themselves to be Christian. Using this definition, Christians total about 75% of the North American adult population.
* Many Fundamentalist and other Evangelical Protestants define "Christian" more narrowly to include only those persons who have been "born again" or have made a personal commitment to follow Jesus irrespective of their denomination. About 35% of the North American adult population identify themselves in this way.
* Some Protestant Christian denominations, para-church groups, and individuals have assembled their own lists of cardinal Christian doctrines. Many would regard anyone who denies even one of their cardinal doctrines to be a non-Christian. Unfortunately, there is a wide diversity of opinion as to which historical Christian beliefs are cardinal doctrines.
* Other denominations and sects regard their own members to be the only true Christians in the world. Some are quite small, numbering only a few thousand followers.[15]
Now I'll go back to my corner!!
Edited-Fixed quote error: paris, Moderator
Hemo you have insulted me many times and I've tried my best to be civil to you. Of course since you hold your self in such high regard you probably feel it is yours to be rude to me, to catholics, to jews, etc.
You evern were insulting to me months ago before all this regarding a fistula and my greater than great nephrolists, surgeon, and interist stating that you knew better than all of them together. I knew of your ego since then. But this is ridiculous. How many people have your offended? Even those with Christian beliefs.
I have a definition of a Christian. "one who trys to live in a Christ like manner". And I, my friend, am a pretty damn good and moral person. However, it is the sitution you put me in here that is certainly about to cause me to "let it go". You have no more idea what Epoman was thinking than do I. Did you even read Paris' comment? We are both speculating --
In ref to Del's discussion about born again Christians.... There is a whole church out here called the "hills song church' the pastor drives a porsche, lives in Bella Vista (or used to... it's one of those McMansion area's). They pass the donation plate around before God is even mentioned ONCE. you have to put you name and $$$$ on the envelope. They send missionaries to (wait for it).......JAPAN! (considering how dead against missionaries like them it's laughable... JAPAN???) They only target the upper middle to high socio economic bracket and do the 'speaking in tongues' bull. They sell cd's hold massive rock concerts. They are just a brand.
And one more idea...... I sure would like to know how amino acids were found on meteorites...... not from this planet......
That is so true Jenny - we have the Destiny Church here which is similar. However, having said that, I know many many church going people in all sorts of Christian churches who are out there giving their time for others and really doing what they believe is right - just for the sake of doing right.
And one more idea...... I sure would like to know how amino acids were found on meteorites...... not from this planet......
Dear Kathy,
What a great topic to look at. I believe that the jury is still out on this one, but even if we start with some simple amino acids here on earth or outer space from some fairly simple chemical reactions, when do we go from some of the building blocks of organic life, to life itself. The most impressive evidence for God written in the chemicals of life is actually DNA since DNA is not just a complex organic molecule, it is actually a language defining all aspects of life. It is impossible to assemble information from random events. But that is what DNA represents. Mutations only scramble the message, they don't make the message. Here is a review of a book for a well renowned scientist on the issue of DNA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Language_of_God:_A_Scientist_Presents_Evidence_for_Belief
So, I believe that there is a God first from the testimony of the Bible of His Son, and second from examples such as DNA which is an actual language conveying information from an intelligent being that I believe to be the God of the Bible. That is why I believe that there is a God.
Hemo you have insulted me many times and I've tried my best to be civil to you. Of course since you hold your self in such high regard you probably feel it is yours to be rude to me, to catholics, to Jews, etc.
Dan, I have not once insulted you in any manner, nor anyone else on this thread while you and several others have enjoyed mocking, and ridiculing my faith and that of others with high fives so to speak with each insult placed.
I have since August simply spoken about the faith of God that I have through the Bible and refuted the many false assertions against the Bible and Christians that many have placed on this thread.
I have countered false assertions of the Bible with direct quotes from the Bible simply to let it speak for itself.
I have enjoyed far ranging debates on other websites on the issues of the Bible and the issues of evolution without the low demeanor that many have fallen to on this thread. That is a shame since it is a debate that many would enjoy discussing in an orderly manner, looking at the substance of the arguments instead of becoming embroiled in petty personality contests peppered with insults and false innuendos that you yourself have delighted in over and over again the last couple of weeks. Perhaps there are some that actually wish to look at the evidence of is there a God and can agree to disagree intelligently and congenially. I have participated on other websites on these very issues for months at a time without losing sight of the topic at hand. That is what I believe Epoman would have had for this thread as well.
And one more idea...... I sure would like to know how amino acids were found on meteorites...... not from this planet......
Dear Kathy,
What a great topic to look at. I believe that the jury is still out on this one, but even if we start with some simple amino acids here on earth or outer space from some fairly simple chemical reactions, when do we go from some of the building blocks of organic life, to life itself. The most impressive evidence for God written in the chemicals of life is actually DNA since DNA is not just a complex organic molecule, it is actually a language defining all aspects of life. It is impossible to assemble information from random events. But that is what DNA represents. Mutations only scramble the message, they don't make the message. Here is a review of a book for a well renowned scientist on the issue of DNA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Language_of_God:_A_Scientist_Presents_Evidence_for_Belief
So, I believe that there is a God first from the testimony of the Bible of His Son, and second from examples such as DNA which is an actual language conveying information from an intelligent being that I believe to be the God of the Bible. That is why I believe that there is a God.
Dear Hemodoc, you berate me for quoting the Pope. Then you do the same thing yourself by quoting Fred Hoyle. In the 1950’s there was great controversy concerning the universe. On the one hand Fred Hoyle maintained that the universe had always existed, whereas on the other ideas were developing on what is now known as the “big bang” origin. A decade later the consensus was that Hoyle was wrong. You have to be careful with scientists; some get it wrong. I particularly remember Harold S Jones, the Astronomer Royal, in 1955, declaring that man could not possibly put anything into orbit. The Russians did it one year later.
So, as you said in your 11 Jan post, “I thought that we were talking about the issues based on facts and evidence, not on authorities, could we not quote authorities the other doesn’t accept?
I'm still enjoying my popcorn, so keep up the dialog.
I would like to comment on something. One of the beauties of science is that, as Stoday commented, the knowledge changes. Science is forever going through peer review as scientists try to poke holes in the ideas of other scientists. It is always being tested.
Some people say you have to have faith in science. But it is the process of finding out that the scientists didn't have it quite right, but continue to get it better that makes is so exciting and NOT an object of faith (unless ones professes to have confidence or faith in the process - but that is not the same kind of faith that one is talking about when professing religious faith).
I am comfortable with folks who have faith especially if it gives them inner peace.
But Peter, I will never be persuaded to believe in God by arguments quoting the Bible. To me it is not a source of authority any more than Nostradamus. That the universe works is also not a proof to me of a god. If the universe did NOT follow the laws of nature, that might be a more compelling argument for god! :clap;
One of my friends, when asked what might convince her that there were a god, answered that a good miracle such as seeing a person spontaneously regenerate a severed arm might suffice. Yeah, that would pretty much do it for me, too.
I'm open to the idea that there is a god. Just haven't been convinced by any evidence, and the Bible isn't evidence for me.
And for every Frank Collins there are 100 scientists who believe differently. Collins is not representative of the scientific community.
Peter, I don't want to de-convert you. But, I do hope you realize that your zeal in quoting the Bible or holding up A scientist isn't doing much to convince me. I could site many former evangelicals who lost faith as well (Dan Barker is one who I know personally and have met a half a dozen others). It just doesn't prove a thing.
I'm done. It's been a long day.
Dear Hemodoc, time and time again you misquote evolution. For example, you say that DNA can’t come about by random chance reactions. Of course not. Evolution cannot happen like that. In particular, I never said that “natural selection” was at the heart of evolution. There’s no one to do the selecting. The evolutionary driver is the survival of the fittest.
Yes, DNA can be changed at random but the vast majority of changes are bad and get rejected. They are bad and don’t survive because they don’t provide an advantage to the organism; they die out. Perhaps only one change in a million is good, but that’s the one that might get reproduced. To be adopted by the species population, each change is minor and must be an advantage to the species in its environment. With time, and environmental separation from the parent species, a new species may develop as a result of cumulative beneficial changes.
Dear Peter and Born Agains,
If I had the belief in your god as some in here say they have, this morning I'd be down on my knees praying for the people of Haiti rather than continuing to spend so much time trying to prove myself right. As it is, I'll have to wait for instructions or suggestions from the Red Cross or some other organization to offer minimal financil contributions. Hell, I'd even contribute to some right winged church supported organization if I felt they'd get there faster and as efficiently.
Hey, it would be a better use of your time (prayers I mean) than continuing this repetitve rhetoric (yes, I know). And a lot less annoying.
Love, Dan
Dear Peter and Born Agains,
If I had the belief in your god as some in here say they have, this morning I'd be down on my knees praying for the people of Haiti rather than continuing to spend so much time trying to prove myself right. As it is, I'll have to wait for instructions or suggestions from the Red Cross or some other organization to offer minimal financil contributions. Hell, I'd even contribute to some right winged church supported organization if I felt they'd get there faster and as efficiently.
Hey, it would be a better use of your time (prayers I mean) than continuing this repetitve rhetoric (yes, I know). And a lot less annoying.
Love, Dan
So true Dan. Actions always speak louder than words. I am home sick today but I will be talking to my Grade 2 students tomorrow about the situation in Haiti and how we can help. I did the same thing with the tsmani (spelling) a few years ago. As a school we raised well over a thousand dollars to sent . (we only have about 150 students in our school). Last year at Christmas time we asked parents to donate money in our name to a charity instead of buying a gift for the teacher. We also have 3 children in our school who are adopted from Ethiopia. Last year the oldest was going back with his mom when she got the third child. We raised over $2000 for him to take back to help the people. I think it is more important to teach children ethics and morals than anything else. We have such a diverse group of children in our schools that it is hard to teach one religious belief so I think it is much more important to try to teach them respect for all people. Plus like most people I do not want to be pressing my own beliefs on another person.
The Bible contains hundreds of specific prophecies telling from the ancient of times what shall come to pass at the end of times.
DNA is a language which must have come from an intelligent designer.
There are many other issues of difficulty with abiogenesis and the theory of evolution,
yet it is the predominant subject taught in our schools.
The so called science of evolution is fraught with conjecture and speculation.
I hope that I have been able to present some food for thought for folks to look at these issues for themselves. In my early 20's, I looked at religion, philosophy and science for the answers to life. I didn't find them there. I looked in many other areas and likewise didn't find the answers there. It was not until I looked at the God of the Bible that not only did I find many of the answers, but God also found me and brought me back home.
The Bible contains hundreds of specific prophecies telling from the ancient of times what shall come to pass at the end of times.
So does Nostradamus, if you read it with the same "interpretation".
Rerun, Science is not something that one "believes in" nor is it something for which one has "faith" as many who have faith in god try to say. In fact, it may be a good idea to be clear on what we mean when using the term Science.
Okay, let's end this thread with a prayer:
Dear Father in heaven, you are the one and only God and we just thank you for your creation and your continued reveling of science where dialysis was discovered so that we can live to discuss your word and works. Father we just ask your guidance in our conversations and that you would guide those who have read your truth yet do not believe. Lord we give them to you. Father for those who are not sure I just ask that they trust you and your word and that they give their lives to you so they are assured a home in eternity. Lord bless this day for all who read this thread. And give peace to the situation in Hati.
Amen~ :pray;
Okay, let's end this thread with a prayer:
Dear Father in heaven, you are the one and only God and we just thank you for your creation and your continued reveling of science where dialysis was discovered so that we can live to discuss your word and works. Father we just ask your guidance in our conversations and that you would guide those who have read your truth yet do not believe. Lord we give them to you. Father for those who are not sure I just ask that they trust you and your word and that they give their lives to you so they are assured a home in eternity. Lord bless this day for all who read this thread. And give peace to the situation in Hati.
Amen~ :pray;
For those who know what I am talking about, are you a particle or are you wave?
It also depends upon the observer.For those who know what I am talking about, are you a particle or are you wave?
That depends...
One slit? Or two?
Now, where do we go to discuss the anthropic principle....
QuoteOkay, let's end this thread with a prayer:
Dear Father in heaven, you are the one and only God and we just thank you for your creation and your continued reveling of science where dialysis was discovered so that we can live to discuss your word and works. Father we just ask your guidance in our conversations and that you would guide those who have read your truth yet do not believe. Lord we give them to you. Father for those who are not sure I just ask that they trust you and your word and that they give their lives to you so they are assured a home in eternity. Lord bless this day for all who read this thread. And give peace to the situation in Hati.
Amen~ :pray;
The prayer offered by Rerun and the Creed quoted by YLGuy are very different in their intent. Where the Creed is an overarching statement of belief, the prayer beseeches intervention for us "sinners." The Creed doesn't offend me at all. I respect that there are those who hold those beliefs dear and I am thankful to be able to read about them to understand them better.
As a way to illustrate WHY Rerun's prayer is offensive, let me offer this slight rewording of the same prayer:
Okay, let's end this thread with a prayer:
Dear Flying Spaghetti Monster, you are the one and only God and we just thank you for your existence and your continued revealing of science where dialysis was discovered so that we can live to discuss your word and works. Monster we just ask your guidance in our conversations and that you would guide those who have read your truth yet do not believe in you. Monster we give them to you. Monster for those who are not sure, I just ask that they trust you and your word and that they give their lives to you so they are assured a home on Earth free from guilt for believing that there is life on other planets. Monster may your noodly appendage touch all who read this thread. And give peace to the situation in Haiti.
Please understand that I am NOT trying to offend, just giving as close of an example of the offensiveness so that those who practice this kind of post may better understand those who may think differently. Isn't good communication supposed to be about understanding ?
Aleta (who doesn't consider herself a sinner)
I want to be a wave..... not a particle.....please!! :rofl; :rofl;
I want to be a wave..... not a particle.....please!! :rofl; :rofl;
Please make another thread about this. Thank you~
Rerun, Moderator
Yes, I found that very offensive and hurtful
Dear God, or FSM, or Whomever, since I have no clue who else to address this to,
Please help everyone to grow up and learn to treat others with the respect they would wish to receive themselves. Please help us all to learn the real meaning of tolerance and to realize that our words can hurt others, accidently or by our own intent. May we all take to heart, whatever our religious beliefs or indeed the absence of same, the message that YOU, whoever you may be , will make wiser judgments of each of us than we ever can of ourselves or of others, including "sinners" and "saints", however you might define those loaded terms. Please help us to try really hard to understand where others might be coming from as they try to make sense of this world which itself presents us with so much diversity in how we look, think and behave. Please let us not fall prey to the idea that we hold the unique truth for anything. Thank you for your patience with the extreme silliness to which we humans can resort and thank you also for the gift of allowing us to think for ourselves, including the option of making a mistake or even mistakes in our beliefs.
Yes, I found that very offensive and hurtful
That is interesting, that you were offended.
Since you find prayers for your own enlightenment to be offensive and hurtful, should we assume that you were intending to be offensive and hurtful when you prayed for ours?
Sucking it like a little baby.
Just like when you cry to moderators.
Funny how you can call people out but you cant take it when someone calls you out.
Kinda like a 6 year old. Yet your 60.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, for whom shall believe in him shall not parish but have everlasting life. "John 3:16"
Rerun, I am sorry I picked on you because of the way you believe. You have the right to believe as you wish.
Rob
Ummm ... God, God, God (thought I'
d better put that in or I'm wayyyyy off topic).
I said I wasn't going to :boxing; and I am not, but I do have to make some comments.
Hemodoc, I am a Christian (not your kind of Christian it seems) and I beleive in God. My comments were not an attack on Christianity or beleif in God. I just don't like being beat over the head with the bible :Kit n Stik;. I wanted to point out just as you do about science, that the bible can be interpreted differently and has been through many changes over the centuries. That the bible does not contain all the writtings of either early Christians or the Jewish religion before Jesus. That to apreciate the bible and Jesus you need to read some of these other things. I did not do so to attack you or your beleifs or the bible. If you thought so, you are mistaken. I just wanted to present this information to those who do not know it is there.
When I refered to "fragle Christians" I was refering to you and rerun, I appologise for being so personal. But, rerun said that she would loose her faith if at some time we made contact with an alien civilization. You stated that the bible does not mention life on other words, there for there is no life on others. How do you both not know that people on other worlds don't beleive in God and that God might not be the same one? You can't. Nor should you let such a thing damage your belief. It is all speculation, and may never happen. But to falter in your belief.... As I asked rerun, would it negate the techings of Jesus? Would it? To me the answer is no. And, I was saddened to see she would feel this way.
You must realise that this thread hs turned into the "argue with hemodoc thread" . Something I am against. We should not be arguing with you or anyone. This should be a palce where we can some state our reasons for beleiving in God or not. Then others who are in need of comfort may find things to make them think as they ponder how and why they need to struggle against their kidney failure and associated health problems.
As has been stated, someone comes here states what they belive and you tell them they are wrong. Your comments about the Pope and the Catholic faith show that you are not tolerant of other's beliefs. I do not find the the Catholic faith to appeal to what I believe, but I do not belittle others for beleiving in it. Then others coem and tell you, you are wrong. Can't we just say, I don't see it your way but you are intitled to your opinion?
Hemodoc, you say that in your 20's you studied science, religon, and did not find the answers you were seeking. That when you turned to the bible you found God. I say good! I am glad. But realise there are others, such as myself who came to God in different ways. I do not find fault in your way. I grew up in a Christian home and went to church as a child. In college I was exposed to other ideas, sicence and religon and began to read on the topics. My first wife's parents were athiests and were shocked when at age 11 she professed a belief in God because it seems Einstien belived in some sort of God. All of her life they tried to persude her she was wrong and were upset tht she married someone who blieved in God. So, I have been exposed to their beliefs. I am not new to debating a God and beliefs, nor believing in God.
To me there is proof of God in sience. Hemodoc and others who are not Christians do not see this. It is ok. I see it in string theory and particle physics. By the way physics has gone past the "Big Bang" a long time ago.
I only ask that we all stop fighting, respect each others views. Quit trying to convince each other we are wrong. You see we might ALL be wrong, who knows. It is only what we believe anyway. We can not prove either way if God exists, if the bible is correct, if you are right and I am wrong or vice versa.
That said, I am going back on the side lines. If the past is any indicator, there will be a reply. I will not be drawn into further argumentation.
:popcorn;
Please don't lock it Okarol - I'm getting more laughter from this thread than anything I've read for a long time!
Paul.Karen reread your threads please and have a think about how rude you come across - I don't think you quite realise how you sound - it's probably that old internet thing where things are missed. Ummm ... God, God, God (thought I'
d better put that in or I'm wayyyyy off topic).
Aleta :rofl; :rofl; :rofl;
Ok, I wasn't ready to end this. Does anyone who comes here know anything about particle physics so we can discus how it might point out tht there is some (excuse me I hate to use this term it is so fought with meaning) "design" to the way the universe exists?
I really do like you guys but enough is enough.. :Kit n Stik;
Gee did I say that???
(Talking of Rerun)
I did not find her prayer offensive - but I am used to hearing it. I was wondering if it would be offensive to people who do not hear such things regularly. I am curious.
Furthermore, I never called you names. I may have thought of some uncomplimentary monikers for you, but decorum dictates that I hold my tongue. On the other hand, you have called me a rather unpleasant name - sinner - and it appears you did so with some relish.
Respectfully,
Aleta
Dear jennyc, kinda of neat issue, the only problem with using this as science is it is completely hypothetical. It also doesn't explain where the matter that makes up the universe comes from in the first place. The first cause. Where did all of this dirt come from in the first place. If we exclude God, we still come back to matters of faith in what you believe. In the beginning dirt, or in the beginning God. Both are religious.Cut and paste..... we used to get into so much trouble for that at uni........................ :rofl; jokes dear! This is why i love debate. I left Uni- BSc (1997) when my grandfater got prostate cancer and my mother and i took turns caring for him. I would love to return but there is no way in this current time that i could concentrate hard enough to study science anymore. So yes i understand wikipedia, The Higgs Boson is so much more. the ultimate answer for me is what started the big bang, where did all that energy and mass come from in the beginging (GOD)... to cut a long (very long, not a pun just a reference to my scientific and religious beliefs. I know i laid out a very basic version but i would probably be hearalded a pagan if you know how i mix my religion and science) story short the start of the big bang was like the hand of God, simply put i belive in God but not as described in the bible as it was written by humans, therefore it's got another persons interpretation on it so i don't take it leterally. "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein
The Higgs boson is a hypothetical massive scalar elementary particle predicted to exist by the Standard Model in particle physics. At present there are no known fundamental scalar particles in nature.
The Higgs boson is the only Standard Model particle that has not been observed. Experimental detection of the Higgs boson would help explain the origin of mass in the universe. The Higgs boson would explain the difference between the massless photon, which mediates electromagnetism, and the massive W and Z bosons, which mediate the weak force. If the Higgs boson exists, it is an integral and pervasive component of the material world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson
Is anyone listening to Okarol???? If you're not listening to God then at least listen to Okarol!
So I challenge you praying Christians to pray for the people of Haiti and then get off your ()s and help in humanitarian aid however you can. The Red Cross is broke. What can you afford to send?
I think Reruns last post was perfect. The name of the thread seems to imply a just a yes or no reply. The thread is not prove or disprove there is a God. It is not which God is really God or which way is the best way to worship him. It is not which church worships correctly. It just asks if there is a God.
Yes
The language of DNA proves there is a God.
Haldane's Dilemma falsifies the chimp to man hypothesis.
Insert Quote
Quote from: Hemodoc on Today at 02:20:38 PM
The language of DNA proves there is a God.
How?
The stasis found in the fossil record falsifies Darwinian evolution theory.
These comments will just lead us back to the chaos of the past days.
We have truly moved far away from Epoman's original question. Some tried to bring it back and answer the question - but once again, we are off track.
Okarol has said "stay on topic". I repeat her statement. I'll just borrow Kitkatz's big stick for now :Kit n Stik;
QuoteHaldane's Dilemma falsifies the chimp to man hypothesis.
What chimp to man hypothesis? Do you mean that chimpanzees and homo sapiens came from a common ancestor?QuoteInsert Quote
Quote from: Hemodoc on Today at 02:20:38 PM
The language of DNA proves there is a God.
How?
Yes, that should be interesting....QuoteThe stasis found in the fossil record falsifies Darwinian evolution theory.
How come the scientific community disagrees with this?
I'm not allowed to post here cause I irritate people, but "right on KitKatz"... beautiful most of the time ain't it. And who care what you call the designer.
Have you ever heard the old joke, "I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out!"?Thank you rocker. Very wise thing to do. Everyone please play nice. :2thumbsup;
Well, it seems we all came to a thread about God and a fight about evolution broke out.
For those who are interested in the evolution debate, I have started a new topic.
http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=17438.0
For those not interested, please resume the festivities here. :)
- rocker
Ok inspired by thread: http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=620.0 (http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=620.0) that topic was getting off course, it was about gays and marriage. It turned into a GOD debate. Well lets continue the debate here.
Is there a GOD? I personally believe YES! I can't imagine that with the complexity of the human body especially the brain, and all the feelings we have, that go hand in hand, for example sex, it serves a purpose and it FEELS GOOD! ;) I just can't imagine that we were an accident, a "Big Bang" happened and a million years later we have Tivo. ??? There are so many beautiful things in this world that are just too perfect. Some people say we evolved from apes, well they can bite my ass. If apes evolved into man, why are there still apes? Is the bible right I hope so! remember though, it was written by man, and things do get lost in translation. I don't know which religion is correct, there are so many! Catholics believe Christians are going to hell and Christians believe Catholics are going to hell, and everyone thinks buddhists are all going to burn. ;D Who is right? I personally think that as long as you believe in a GOD and live a good life, you will go to heaven when you die, if I didn't believe in GOD and NO forgiveness for the ultimate sin (suicide) I would have offed myself 13 years ago. But I fear GOD and I try to follow his rules as much as possible. Because when I die I want to go to heaven and chill with "THE MAN" and talk about the mysteries of the universe, things like what ever happened to Jimmy Hoffa?
Well that should start things off....
DISCUSS!
Oh, I know I shouldn't, but I am curious. Hemodoc, may I ask, why do you think DNA proves the existance of God? I don't mean to start a :boxing; just want to know what his views are. So please everyone let's remain calm and civil. Thank you.
Dear Rocker, if you want to start another thread on evolution that is fine,
but why all of the rules and regulations on this thread to limit discussion on is there a God.
Evolution and the question of is there a God go hand in hand
Oh, I know I shouldn't, but I am curious. Hemodoc, may I ask, why do you think DNA proves the existance of God? I don't mean to start a :boxing; just want to know what his views are. So please everyone let's remain calm and civil. Thank you.
Dear Rocker, if you want to start another thread on evolution that is fine,
Thank you.Quotebut why all of the rules and regulations on this thread to limit discussion on is there a God.
I do not make any rules or regulations here. I simply find it an interesting topic. Threads get crowded, with four or five different people responding to different things. Have you ever been at a party, and a large group gathers for conversation? And there are four or five topics being discussed loudly, but you find one person's views interesting. So you step away from the larger group to have a conversation on a topic that interests you. That doesn't mean your conversation was "off-topic" in the larger group.QuoteEvolution and the question of is there a God go hand in hand
This certainly seems to be true for you and a few other people. I don't think the majority of people agree.
- rocker
Hemodoc, thank you. I know I've disagreed with you in the (but not about whether there is a God) but I, personally, feel certain areas of science indicate there is a God.
Hemodoc, thank you. I know I've disagreed with you in the (but not about whether there is a God) but I, personally, feel certain areas of science indicate there is a God.
You are welcome Rob. Nothing at all wrong with disagreeing a long as it it done in the right manner.
But I don't believe a belief in God, the God of Jesus particularly, precludes a person to recognise
evolution as one of God's mechanism to run the universe. I know you disagree, you have stated why before. No need to try to convince me I am in error by believing that. I only mention this to bring forth a "third" view on the subject, not fuel further fighting.
Dear Rob,
For sake of time, here is a one page summary of Perry Marshall's argument. Perhaps the best place to start.
http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/intelligent_evolution_quick_guide.pdf
Enjoy,
Peter
But I don't believe a belief in God, the God of Jesus particularly, precludes a person to recognise
evolution as one of God's mechanism to run the universe. I know you disagree, you have stated why before. No need to try to convince me I am in error by believing that. I only mention this to bring forth a "third" view on the subject, not fuel further fighting.
I have said this several times now. There is no conflict between evolution and a belief in God for most people.
I can only assume that if evolution were ever proven to Peter's "satisfaction", he would immediately lose his belief in God. I'm not sure why.
Again, anyone serious about discussing the actual topic of evolution is welcome in the thread dedicated to it.
- rocker
That sounds like a really good rule. Now what was it Epoman meant to convey? Oh, he's not here to speak for himself is he?
Rock on
Paris my dear, You knew Epoman well. I wonder if you could speak to his intent in starting this thread?
QuoteDear Rob,
For sake of time, here is a one page summary of Perry Marshall's argument. Perhaps the best place to start.
http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/intelligent_evolution_quick_guide.pdf
Enjoy,
Peter
Perry Marshall is an Internet network expert, not a scientist. I would be very surprised if he had a good scientific understanding of DNA and how it works (nor do I). One of the first things he does in his "proof" is set up a false dichotomy between pattern and design, putting DNA under design and postulating that design requires a designer.
He then sets up a false analogy of DNA as a language. For an analysis from a scientific viewpoint (short) visit:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB180.html (http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB180.html)
In fact, Talk Origins is an interesting site that gives references for the sources of its information.
Aleta
Hemodoc, thank you. I know I've disagreed with you in the (but not about whether there is a God) but I, personally, feel certain areas of science indicate there is a God.
You are welcome Rob. Nothing at all wrong with disagreeing a long as it it done in the right manner.
This is so true.
Just to express another view on the subject. But I don't believe a belief in God, the God of Jesus particularly, precludes a person to recognise
evolution as one of God's mechanism to run the universe. I know you disagree, you have stated why before. No need to try to convince me I am in error by believing that. I only mention this to bring forth a "third" view on the subject, not fuel further fighting.
Here in America, most do not accept evolution as fact much to the chagrin of folks that try to speak otherwise. Here on IHD, those that believe in a God far outweigh those that don't 72% to 24%.
In the U.S., only 14 percent of adults thought that evolution was "definitely true," while about a third firmly rejected the idea.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/08/060810-evolution.html
Here in America, most do not accept evolution as fact much to the chagrin of folks that try to speak otherwise. Here on IHD, those that believe in a God far outweigh those that don't 72% to 24%.
Here in America, most do not accept evolution as fact much to the chagrin of folks that try to speak otherwise. Here on IHD, those that believe in a God far outweigh those that don't 72% to 24%.
In the U.S., only 14 percent of adults thought that evolution was "definitely true," while about a third firmly rejected the idea.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/08/060810-evolution.html
I must say, I have a real problem understanding where Hemodoc gets his numbers from. Maybe I just can't do sums.
In the poll for this thread I count 64% as believing in God, 20% believe thare's no god and 16% are not sure/undecided.
I go to the national geographic link which shows the USA among 34 countries in a chart. For the USA, 40% say evolution is true, 40% say it's not and 20% are not sure.
If you look at the poll at the top of the page you will see that Hemodoc used the number of votes as the percentage. The percentage of folks who voted who said that they believe in god is just under 60%. There is another 5% who answered that there is a god and dialysis is hell.
The percentage of folks who said that they do not believe in god is just under 20%. The undecided/not sure folks are about 16%.
Stoday, I looked at the graph form the National Geographic as well. It appears that the text accompanying the chart has the figure for those who accept evolution as true. The chart shows 41%, but the text says 14%. It looks like the chart reports aabout 38% of Americans do not accept the theory of evolution.
I'm not debating, just clarifying the confusion over the numbers. I should have caught that earlier.
Here in America, most do not accept evolution as fact much to the chagrin of folks that try to speak otherwise. Here on IHD, those that believe in a God far outweigh those that don't 72% to 24%.
IHD has 3974 members. Out of that number 123 voted in this poll. So, of those who voted, 72% said yes, they believe in God. Wonder what the other 3800 members think?
Back to my corner!
If you look at the poll at the top of the page you will see that Hemodoc used the number of votes as the percentage. The percentage of folks who voted who said that they believe in god is just under 60%. There is another 5% who answered that there is a god and dialysis is hell.
The percentage of folks who said that they do not believe in god is just under 20%. The undecided/not sure folks are about 16%.
Stoday, I looked at the graph form the National Geographic as well. It appears that the text accompanying the chart has the figure for those who accept evolution as true. The chart shows 41%, but the text says 14%. It looks like the chart reports aabout 38% of Americans do not accept the theory of evolution.
I'm not debating, just clarifying the confusion over the numbers. I should have caught that earlier.
Dear Aleta, et al, I am not debating either, but to clarify the reason that I put the quotes from the NatGeo article and the poll here on this thread was to counter the many comments that stated that most folks believe in evolution.
So, pick your poll of choice, it has been a consistent finding for years that most evolutionists find quite shocking, but it is true.
My point, many in your vocal minority have loudly tried to shut down the majority view here on IHD through various tactics which ignore the actual facts and data.
Not that I will go forth with any more debate with the vocal minority
Gosh Gail, You're so smart... (for a girl). Let's rumble! :rofl;
Gosh Gail, You're so smart... (for a girl). Let's rumble! :rofl;:rofl; Oh dear, Dan, did I neglect to tell you that in "real" life I'm a transgendered short guy from Rumbletown? :rofl;
Gosh Gail, You're so smart... (for a girl). Let's rumble! :rofl;Gosh Gail, You're so smart... (for a girl). Let's rumble! :rofl;:rofl; Oh dear, Dan, did I neglect to tell you that in "real" life I'm a transgendered short guy from Rumbletown? :rofl;
So, pick your poll of choice, it has been a consistent finding for years that most evolutionists find quite shocking, but it is true. My point, many in your vocal minority have loudly tried to shut down the majority view here on IHD through various tactics which ignore the actual facts and data. This is just one small example of what you get into when you challenge the minority view. Not that I will go forth with any more debate with the vocal minority, but it is quite amusing to see such debate over such a minor point of contention that is actually not in contention. Polls show that the most Americans do not accept the theory of evolution.
Not sure what type of real debate can occur if just stating the fact of evolution polls in America brings such derision.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/19/world/middleeast/19syria.html
I'd like to contribute this article to the discussion since for me it represents a most admirable goal, that of seeking mutual respect among people who may hold different beliefs but who are nonetheless engaged in the same quest. I cannot at all understand why any one set of beliefs MUST hold sway over the others. I am aware of the proselytizing mission inherent in some belief systems but I find it hard to believe that God, if indeed God does exist, would have created such a diverse world with such diverse peoples but only one, single, fairly narrow path to "salvation".
If everyone lived by The Golden Rule - Do onto others as you would want them to do onto you- the world would be a much nicer place to live!!
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/19/world/middleeast/19syria.html
I'd like to contribute this article to the discussion since for me it represents a most admirable goal, that of seeking mutual respect among people who may hold different beliefs but who are nonetheless engaged in the same quest. I cannot at all understand why any one set of beliefs MUST hold sway over the others. I am aware of the proselytizing mission inherent in some belief systems but I find it hard to believe that God, if indeed God does exist, would have created such a diverse world with such diverse peoples but only one, single, fairly narrow path to "salvation".
What I have pointing out since joined battle here.
Hemodoc, you say the majority of the people beleive "in creationism". Ah, which version? There are as many views of that as there are of God. I beleive in a supreme being who created everything in this universe (you know physics tells us there could be others) but I also believe that evolution is one of the mechanisms used to "run" this universe. Oh, rock it was me who said something like this and started that mess. Sorry others got the blame.
If everyone lived by The Golden Rule - Do onto others as you would want them to do onto you- the world would be a much nicer place to live!!
A good thing to remeber. Play nice,everyone. And let that be my final comment from dialysis today. And, for thosekeeping score, the patients are winning in 9 minutes of regulatin. If your lost, you didn't read the other thread.
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/18/must-there-be-a-bottom-line/
I found this article in today's NYT to be quite interesting and germane to the discussion on this thread.
But people can believe in both God (higher power) and evolution. They can go hand in hand!!
But people can believe in both God (higher power) and evolution. They can go hand in hand!!
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/18/must-there-be-a-bottom-line/
I found this article in today's NYT to be quite interesting and germane to the discussion on this thread.
Did anybody hear about the Catholic priest who died and reincarnated as a Rabbi? He went to hell twice.
But people can believe in both God (higher power) and evolution. They can go hand in hand!!
Dear Del, for Bible believing Christians, those that believe in evolution are a small minority.
But people can believe in both God (higher power) and evolution. They can go hand in hand!!
Dear Del, for Bible believing Christians, those that believe in evolution are a small minority.
It's best to go to the source of a survey rather than a report of it. http://www.harrisinteractive.net/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=982 (http://www.harrisinteractive.net/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=982)
You cannot draw Hemodoc's conclusion from the source. All you can say is that 56% of respondants who attend church more than once a year believe in Darwin's theory of evolution.
Another fact from the survey — 40% of respondants believe in creationism; 47% in Darwin's theory of evolution.
There's no such thing as a transitional fossil. If one were found, it would be given the name of another species.
Homo sapiens and Homo neanderthalensis evolved from Homo erectus. But hey! a transition was found, so it was called Homo heidlebergensis and classed as a different species.
In principle, all species are in transition. Everything evolves to better meet a changing environment.
In fact there is very little difference in this thread and the sister thread "the truth about evolution". I thought the later was created to allow this one to stay on topic. Can you find anything in Epoman's writings and rules about staying on topic? If no, I'm quite sure it is in the Bible somewhere.
Rules general mean everyone without a written exception.
Ok inspired by thread: http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=620.0 (http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=620.0) that topic was getting off course, it was about gays and marriage. It turned into a GOD debate. Well lets continue the debate here.
Is there a GOD? I personally believe YES! I can't imagine that with the complexity of the human body especially the brain, and all the feelings we have, that go hand in hand, for example sex, it serves a purpose and it FEELS GOOD! ;) I just can't imagine that we were an accident, a "Big Bang" happened and a million years later we have Tivo. ??? There are so many beautiful things in this world that are just too perfect. Some people say we evolved from apes, well they can bite my ass. If apes evolved into man, why are there still apes? Is the bible right I hope so! remember though, it was written by man, and things do get lost in translation. I don't know which religion is correct, there are so many! Catholics believe Christians are going to hell and Christians believe Catholics are going to hell, and everyone thinks buddhists are all going to burn. ;D Who is right? I personally think that as long as you believe in a GOD and live a good life, you will go to heaven when you die, if I didn't believe in GOD and NO forgiveness for the ultimate sin (suicide) I would have offed myself 13 years ago. But I fear GOD and I try to follow his rules as much as possible. Because when I die I want to go to heaven and chill with "THE MAN" and talk about the mysteries of the universe, things like what ever happened to Jimmy Hoffa?
Well that should start things off....
DISCUSS!
Staying on topic about is there a God, why I belive ther is a God precisely.
Just six numbers govern the shape, size, and texture of our universe. If their values were only fractionally different, we would not exist: nor, in many cases, would matter have had a chance to form. If the numbers that govern our universe were elegant--1, say, or pi, or the Golden Mean--we would simply shrug and say that the universe was an elegant mathematical puzzle. But the numbers Martin Rees discusses are far from tidy. Was the universe "tweaked" or is it one of many universes, all run by slightly different, but equally messy, rules?
rocker, how about the Drake equation? The Drake equation (sometimes called the "Green Bank equation", the "Green Bank Formula" or–erroneously–the "Sagan equation") is an equation to calculate the potential number of extraterrestrial civilizations in our galaxy, the Milky Way.
Sometimes I think we look for "earth like planets" becaue we are looking for a place to immigrate.
rocker, how about the Drake equation? The Drake equation (sometimes called the "Green Bank equation", the "Green Bank Formula" or–erroneously–the "Sagan equation") is an equation to calculate the potential number of extraterrestrial civilizations in our galaxy, the Milky Way.
Sometimes I think we look for "earth like planets" becaue we are looking for a place to immigrate.
The Drake equation is cute....but as we know from math, you can't solve a single equation with that many unknowns! It's less of an equation, and more of a thought experiment. But yes, it has been the basis for many fascinating discussions over the years.
As for immigration - well the physics are currently against it. (Who said "Space is big. Really, really big."?) But no reason to stop trying!
Does God have a position on interplanetary immigration? :rofl;
- rocker
rocker, how about the Drake equation? The Drake equation (sometimes called the "Green Bank equation", the "Green Bank Formula" or–erroneously–the "Sagan equation") is an equation to calculate the potential number of extraterrestrial civilizations in our galaxy, the Milky Way.
Sometimes I think we look for "earth like planets" becaue we are looking for a place to immigrate.
The Drake equation is cute....but as we know from math, you can't solve a single equation with that many unknowns! It's less of an equation, and more of a thought experiment. But yes, it has been the basis for many fascinating discussions over the years.
As for immigration - well the physics are currently against it. (Who said "Space is big. Really, really big."?) But no reason to stop trying!
Does God have a position on interplanetary immigration? :rofl;
- rocker
What?
What?
I hate to add another link, but it's a good one. http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/museumintro.htm
Someone grossly uneducated on potassium/argon dating sent a sample in to a lab when the lab clearly stated that they cannot date rocks less than roughly 2 million years old. Some choice quotes from the link:
Andrew MacRae replied "...all Austin has proven is that if you do something silly, and misapply K/Ar dating to rocks erupted yesterday, you get nonsensical age results" (MacRae 1998).
Henry Barwood notes that "Bad measurements, like bad science, reflect only on the measurer (Austin), not on the measurement (the procedure) (Barwood 1998)."
This article also mentions that Austin published under a different name, trying to make it appear that he had been converted to his thinking by research independent to his own.
Usually dating methods, both direct and indirect, are used in conjunction to date a specimen. Pseudoscience offends me. I must train myself to stop reading this. :P
No, what I ment is how did we get on that subject in the first place?
Evolution assumes that there is no God that brings about these naturalistic processes.
Evolution assumes that there is no God that brings about these naturalistic processes.
No, as I have stated before, It does not. This is your interpretation of what it says. I on the other hand think it says something else.
The age of the earth is assumed in the theory of evolution.
You are correct that is my interpretation of the issue, but I am curious how you reconcile the Bible and evolution if you consider that. Perhaps I should have said that evolution is not compatible with the God of the Bible. Just asking.
Peter
The age of the earth is assumed in the theory of evolution.
Your jey word is assumed, a presumption. Evolution does not have anything to do with the age of the earth, as a comological or geological fact. Mixing apples and oragnes here.
Ask me in twenty or thirty years and I should know definitively by then.
But the question is - does the dog believe in God???
Dear Rocker,
It is interesting that you easily see that the assumptions of the Drake equation render it to nothing more than a thought experiment. However, have you ever looked at the equations for radiometric dating as well that are based on unproven and unprovable assumptions?
Edited - Fixed quote error: paris, ModeratorIn fact there is very little difference in this thread and the sister thread "the truth about evolution". I thought the later was created to allow this one to stay on topic. Can you find anything in Epoman's writings and rules about staying on topic? If no, I'm quite sure it is in the Bible somewhere.
Rules general mean everyone without a written exception.Ok inspired by thread: http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=620.0 (http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=620.0) that topic was getting off course, it was about gays and marriage. It turned into a GOD debate. Well lets continue the debate here.
Is there a GOD? I personally believe YES! I can't imagine that with the complexity of the human body especially the brain, and all the feelings we have, that go hand in hand, for example sex, it serves a purpose and it FEELS GOOD! ;) I just can't imagine that we were an accident, a "Big Bang" happened and a million years later we have Tivo. ??? There are so many beautiful things in this world that are just too perfect. Some people say we evolved from apes, well they can bite my ass. If apes evolved into man, why are there still apes? Is the bible right I hope so! remember though, it was written by man, and things do get lost in translation. I don't know which religion is correct, there are so many! Catholics believe Christians are going to hell and Christians believe Catholics are going to hell, and everyone thinks buddhists are all going to burn. ;D Who is right? I personally think that as long as you believe in a GOD and live a good life, you will go to heaven when you die, if I didn't believe in GOD and NO forgiveness for the ultimate sin (suicide) I would have offed myself 13 years ago. But I fear GOD and I try to follow his rules as much as possible. Because when I die I want to go to heaven and chill with "THE MAN" and talk about the mysteries of the universe, things like what ever happened to Jimmy Hoffa?
Well that should start things off....
DISCUSS!
Dear Dan,
Nothing wrong with the other thread, but Epoman started this thread talking about evolution and why he believed in God. "Some people say we evolved from apes, well they can bite my ass."
Likewise, the Bible states that by the things that He has created, He has shown us that He is God, even the Godhead of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. We are still on topic on this thread.
Thank you,
Peter
Dear Rocker,
It is interesting that you easily see that the assumptions of the Drake equation render it to nothing more than a thought experiment. However, have you ever looked at the equations for radiometric dating as well that are based on unproven and unprovable assumptions?
I find this fascinating from a psychological standpoint. The link between fundamentalism and the authoritarian mindset is well-documented. (An authoritarian mindset is a person who believes in strong hierarchies - there is one leader at the top. People lower in the hierarchy are subject to those higher, etc.)
Peter had an entire thread devoted to his thoughts on evolution. And yet, no matter how many times people mention that they do not find the topic entirely welcome here, he continues to bring it up again and again and again. When someone gently suggests he take the topic where it belongs, he appeals to a higher authority - the dear departed Epoman. Over and over he insists that since Epoman mentioned evolution in the post that started this thread, he is justified in bringing it up whenever he likes, no matter who objects. No matter how unwelcome people find it now, he is justified in his crusade.
I just find it interesting.
- rocker
I believe in god. I believe he saved me from dieing when I was suppose to be in a coma, he has blessed me with many things throughout my kidney failure and I will never have it any other way!
Troy
I have tried to get other views expressed here so we could have sane, inteligent discussion about God from various view points. Not everyone has the same view point about God. instead, we continiusly argue. One person beats us over the head telling us his views are THE ONLY VIEWS TO HAVE. Everyone else wants to argue with him. This is rediculious. I have had my fill. If I may quote that famous cartoon figure Popeye, "That's all I can stands, I can't stands no more!" I have had my fill of ego and argument.Dear Rob, you may call me a Bible thumper since in truth that is what I hold up and have done on many occasions. I have only posted the view that either the Bible is true or it is not and the evidence from science and the Bible in support. In such, that is not "my view or my opinion" but simply relaying what the Bible says for itself despite the fact that many complained about my long posts. My posts were long to let the Bible speak for itself. I have patiently presented this view and not resorted to name calling or insults despite all those thrown my way. Intelligent debate can never take place if insults and mockery are the main calling of this or any thread. That was the entire reason I became involved in this thread in the first place last August after I was tired of continuous anti-Christian posts and bold lies against the Bible. So, I am only posting a conservative, Bible based, young earth creationism view of the world which many in this nation agree with. It appears to me that the real problem is that I am speaking up on that view at all, even though it is the view that Epoman himself started this thread with.
Peter, people aren't attacking Christanity as a whole. Face it man they are telling you your views are your views, but quit trying to shove down everyone"s throut. I have resisted calling you a "bible thumper", becauser I don't believe in personally insulting you. I know you only mean well by telling people why your view of God is "the one true way". Understand, I am not insulting you, if you are insulted I appologise. You may be right, but I'd like other people to express views too. That can't happen if we argue all the time.
So, I am leaving this thread forever. If anyone replies to this, I won't read it I'm not coming back here to this thread to read it. Fight, argue all you want. You will just do so without me taking part in this madness. :waving;
I find this fascinating from a psychological standpoint. The link between fundamentalism and the authoritarian mindset is well-documented. (An authoritarian mindset is a person who believes in strong hierarchies - there is one leader at the top. People lower in the hierarchy are subject to those higher, etc.)
Peter had an entire thread devoted to his thoughts on evolution. And yet, no matter how many times people mention that they do not find the topic entirely welcome here, he continues to bring it up again and again and again. When someone gently suggests he take the topic where it belongs, he appeals to a higher authority - the dear departed Epoman. Over and over he insists that since Epoman mentioned evolution in the post that started this thread, he is justified in bringing it up whenever he likes, no matter who objects. No matter how unwelcome people find it now, he is justified in his crusade.
I just find it interesting.
- rocker
Now, one more round of insults to Hemodoc down.
I find this fascinating from a psychological standpoint. The link between fundamentalism and the authoritarian mindset is well-documented. (An authoritarian mindset is a person who believes in strong hierarchies - there is one leader at the top. People lower in the hierarchy are subject to those higher, etc.)
Peter had an entire thread devoted to his thoughts on evolution. And yet, no matter how many times people mention that they do not find the topic entirely welcome here, he continues to bring it up again and again and again. When someone gently suggests he take the topic where it belongs, he appeals to a higher authority - the dear departed Epoman. Over and over he insists that since Epoman mentioned evolution in the post that started this thread, he is justified in bringing it up whenever he likes, no matter who objects. No matter how unwelcome people find it now, he is justified in his crusade.
I just find it interesting.
- rocker
Now, one more round of insults to Hemodoc down.
Could you please point to which words, exactly, that I said that you found so insulting?
-rocker
Dear Rocker, if you can't see the demeaning comments in your post about me, then there is not much sense pointing them out to you, you will simply dismiss it anyway.
Even Mein Kamph makes some statement that are true. Get it through your thick skull that God didn't write the bible. Jesus didn't even edit the bible.
Many people in the forum respect Epoman. Some even tend idolize him. I didn't know him and must respect the opinion of others on here.
Dear Rocker, if you can't see the demeaning comments in your post about me, then there is not much sense pointing them out to you, you will simply dismiss it anyway.
So you cannot say how, exactly, I have insulted you.
But you are absolutely certain that I did.
- rocker
The personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew.
Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf
I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.
Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf
There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man.
Adolf Hitler
Off topic? Was it not all about God? And actually expressed a couple of your viewpoints.
How about:
The parties dispute whether the segments excerpted by Lerma represent "the heart of" the Works under the qualitative component. The Court is unable to evaluate this component because many of the copyrighted materials are incomprehensible."
- Judge Leonie Brinkema; US DISTRICT COURT, EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA, Alexandria Division, Civil Action No 95-1107-A
"Generally speaking, it is my contention that Hubbard did no credible research of his own. Instead he distilled ideas from books he had read, the few college courses he took, his own experiences, and his very fertile and disturbed mind, and came up with a mish-mash of bizarre theories which he wrote down in scientific-sounding phrases and words."
- Jeff Jacobsen in "The Hubbard is Bare"
[Dianetics is] "an oversimplified form of regular psychotherapy mixed with hypnosis."
- Russell Miller in "Bare Faced Messiah", Chapter 9
"In a 1909 lecture, Freud explained a method for uncovering traumatic memories. Patients were asked to recall earlier and earlier life incidents on a "chain" until the emotional "charge" was released. Hubbard not only took the technique, he even retained several of the expressions used by the translator of these lectures. Freud had abandoned the technique, because it was laborious and completely failed to uncover key repressions. In fact, after sometimes providing initial relief, Dianetics all too often deteriorates into the dangerous conviction that entirely imaginary incidents are literal truth."
- John Atack in "The Total Freedom Trap"
"Hubbard redefined the existing term "engram" as a label for traumatic incidents where the individual has lost consciousness. Dianetics: the Modern Science of Mental Health proclaims that by "erasing" the engrams, the individual is freed from compulsions, obsessions, neuroses, and such conditions as heart trouble, poor eyesight, asthma, colour blindness, allergies, stuttering, poor hearing, sinusitis, high blood pressure, dermatitis, migraine, ulcers, arthritis, morning sickness, the common cold, conjunctivitis, alcoholism and tuberculosis. Hubbard soon claimed cures for cancer and leukaemia. No scientific evidence for these claims has ever been produced."
- John Atack in "The Total Freedom Trap"
[On Thursday 10 August, 1950] "Hubbard stepped up to the microphone to introduce the 'world's first clear'. She was, he said, a young woman by the name of Sonya Bianca, a physics major and pianist from Boston. Among her many newly acquired attributes, he claimed she had 'full and perfect recall of every moment of her life' [...] As people began getting up and walking out of the auditorium, one man noticed that Hubbard had momentarily turned his back on the girl and shouted, 'OK, what colour necktie is Mr Hubbard wearing?' The world's first 'clear' screwed up her face in a frantic effort to remember, stared into the hostile blackness of the auditorium, then hung her head in misery".
- Russell Miller in "Bare Faced Messiah", Chapter 10.
" Hubbard became ever more authoritarian and suspicious of the people around him. 'He was having a lot of political and organizational problems with people grabbing for power,' said Barbara Kaye [not her real name], a public relations assistant at the Los Angeles Foundation. 'He didn't trust anyone and was highly paranoid. He thought the CIA had hit men after him. We'd be walking along the street and I would ask, "Why are you walking so fast?" He would look over his shoulder and say, "You don't know what it's like to be a target." No one was after him: it was all delusion.'"
- Russell Miller in "Bare Faced Messiah", Chapter 10.
'People had breakdowns quite often,' said Perry Chapdelaine, a Sears Roebuck clerk from Mason City, Iowa, who was a student at Elizabeth. 'It was always hushed up before anyone found out about it. It happened to a guy on my course, a chemical engineer. They wanted to get him out of the school and I volunteered to stay with him in an adjoining building. He never slept or ate and was in a terrible state, no one could do anything with him and in the end they took him off to an asylum.'
- Russell Miller from an interview with Perry Chapdelaine, Nashville, 25 April 1986
"... by 1951, Hubbard was well known to the FBI. The opinion of the agent who had interviewed him in Newark that he was a 'mental case' figured prominently in his file, as did Sara's divorce allegations that he was 'hopelessly insane'. It was a diagnosis with which the FBI was inclined to concur ..." - Russell Miller in "Bare Faced Messiah", Chapter 11.
"We've got some new ways to make slaves here."
-L. Ron Hubbard, Philadelphia Doctorate Course lecture 20, 1952.
"With Scientology, Hubbard asserted that we are all spiritual beings ("thetabeings", and later "thetans"), who have lived for trillions of years, incamating again and again. He claimed that through the use of his new techniques, anyone could achieve supernatural powers. In 40 years, no scientific evidence has been provided for these claims."
- John Atack in "The Total Freedom Trap"
"It was only in the late 1960s, with increasing criticism of its methods by western governments, that Scientology retreated behind the trappings of religion. Scientology "ministers" take a course in comparative religion based upon a single book, and read the few ceremonies written by Hubbard. Their training takes a few days. They dress in imitation of Christian ministers, including a dog collar and a Christian-seeming cross. In fact, the cross is a Scientology cross, which clearly imitates that of Hubbard's role model, magician Aleister Crowley. It is actually a satanic "crossed out" cross."
- John Atack in "The Total Freedom Trap"
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Because only You have the right to control Your Mind.
send them to hell (a fate worse than death) but don't kill them yourself....
Who calls anyone down of off topica and out of line? Get serious.
Dear Dan, it all goes back to whether the Bible is true or not.
Dear Dan, it all goes back to whether the Bible is true or not.
You believe in biblical inerrancy, or so you have stated.
I do not recall what your response was to some of the things I pointed out in the Bible that are not in line with our current scientific understanding.
Some of them were:
Bats are a type of bird.
Rabbits chew their cud.
Pi is equal to three.
Can you explain why the apparent conflict? And also, why the Bible seems to contradict itself in several places? (Example - how did Judas Iscariot die?)
- rocker
Dear Rocker, you not only insult me, but you insult the memory of my father when you state I am an authoritative personality.
I would caution everyone to not take Kent Hovind's math too seriously, unless you too want to spend 10 years in prison for tax fraud.
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/17231/dr-dino-sentenced-to-10-years-in-prison
I would respectfully wonder how it came to pass that this thread has turned into a debate about the "truth" of a conservative, bible-based, young earth creationism view of Christianity? There are folks, like Peter, who have found personal salvation and a cast-in-concrete certitude that this is the ONLY way to avoid landing in "hell" and that this is the ONLY possible interpretation of the message of Christ as expressed through words translated from an ancient language that was not English. That is indeed an opinion, based on personal reading and understanding of the Bible, and I'd like to point out that there exist many many people who also call themselves Christians who have arrived at different conclusions about the very same words, sentences and books of the Bible. Biblical scholars have been debating this topic and its details for centuries. We shan't settle it here. I'm most interested in how those who have a faith, came to it, in how it might have provided support or comfort, has it ever been shaken or disappeared altogether et cetera. I understand Peter's point of view, I have a good feel for the passion he brings to his "rebirth", I have read his extensive quotes, and I've read the Bible and I still feel that there is worthiness in the points of view and interpretations of others. In short, I'm interested less in dogma and more in beliefs.
If I were a Muslim, a devout Muslim, as Peter is a devout conservative, bible-based, young earth creationist, why would I ever share my thoughts, feelings and indeed faith in my beliefs only to be told that I am wrong, that I'm making the wrong choice and that I will pay dearly for this once I die. Sharing, especially about something as personal to people as their religious views, is about attempting to understand one another not about thumping anything at all, in my view, not Bibles, not Qu'rans, not other texts that some hold sacred and certainly not each others ways of believing.
I am a gardener. I am a passionate gardener and I often speak with others about all that I receive from this hobby. My life would be poorer without my interest in the plant world but many people find me a bit nuts to have this visceral need to dig in dirt. I don't need to convince them to start gardening...they might want me to dig their first flowerbed. It is enough to simply speak my truth about how gardening connects me to my past, anchors my present and lures me towards the next season. Please don't misunderstand...I don't worship nature...I feel no need to say "what", "who" or indeed even "if" I worship at all. I can and will say however that I am not aware of ever having persecuted anyone for their personal beliefs in the matter of religion because I don't feel that I KNOW the truth...not even close. While I'm delighted that Peter has found his certitude in a conservative, bible-based, young earth creationist interpretation of Christianity and would like to steer all and sundry towards the comfort that certainty can offer, I am personally comfortable with my own fluctuating doubt and little flickers of clarity about things. I value an open mind and certainty can close it, which is fine for some but unsettling for others such as myself.
I would love to hear opinions about God from those of faiths other than Christian but were I such a person I would keep quiet also because sharing my beliefs only to be told that I've got it wrong just doesn't feel right.
The Bible and the value of PI
Written by: Kent Hovind
The diameter of 10 cubits is from outer rim to outer rim, the way anyone would measure a circular object. The circumference of 30 cubits, however, was of the inner circle, after subtracting the thickness of the brass (two handbreadths-one for each side) from which the bowl was made.
This would be the number needed to calculate the volume of water.
Option #2
Is there a god? We've heard your answer loud and clear. Others have other opinions, some as well reasoned as yours and some not.
One question: If Science proved beyond a doubt that the Bible is not true, would you just overnight lose your faith? God, I hope not. I hope your faith is more substancial.
Blessing of the Universe be upon you,
d
Along with Rerun, I ask we keep on topic. There are many things being said on all sides that are pushing the line. Moderators are here to help keep order. I see many saying they can accept what another believes, but it isn't what they believe. Good :thumbup; I admire anyone who is secure in their faith or beliefs. I know what I think is right (for me) and have very comfortable with that my entire life. I want to know how others make their path. So, I applaud anyone for standing up for their beliefs but we also need to let others stand for what they believe. I have been relaying all this to my husband - a devout Christian and conservative - and his response was "well, I certainly hope I got it right - but I know God loves me even if I didn't". I think the quotes and deep thinking is pushing more and more from this thread and that is a shame. If you want others to hear "The Word" you have to give them space and room to listen.
Please try to be kind to one another. God (and the mods) would really appreciate it.
Dear hemo, once again you've avoided an answer to a direct question with one of Tyefly's frog stools.
Along with Rerun, I ask we keep on topic. There are many things being said on all sides that are pushing the line. Moderators are here to help keep order. I see many saying they can accept what another believes, but it isn't what they believe. Good :thumbup; I admire anyone who is secure in their faith or beliefs. I know what I think is right (for me) and have very comfortable with that my entire life. I want to know how others make their path. So, I applaud anyone for standing up for their beliefs but we also need to let others stand for what they believe. I have been relaying all this to my husband - a devout Christian and conservative - and his response was "well, I certainly hope I got it right - but I know God loves me even if I didn't". I think the quotes and deep thinking is pushing more and more from this thread and that is a shame. If you want others to hear "The Word" you have to give them space and room to listen.
Please try to be kind to one another. God (and the mods) would really appreciate it.
Dear Paris, simply keeping personal attacks out of the discussion including profanity and insults is all that you need to keep this discussion on line. That is within your power and I would urge you do so. That is the single greatest hindrance to this thread, not strong stances on personal beliefs.
I've seen no actually profanity, but I do believe you were the first to copy pate about biting my ass. Very Christian I'd say.
Great post Monrein. I agree with all of your points and would greatly enjoy people defending their beliefs on why they do or do not believe in God. Unfortunately, there is a small cabal of folks here that would rather mock and insult that gets in the way of that. In a debate or discussion, it is customary to place reasons for the side of the discussion that people are supporting. Clearing up incorrect assessments of my faith is one of the main issues that I have engaged in showing just what the Bible does or does not say. I agree, I would love to hear other opinions as well if done in a respectful manner including and most especially one of the largest held views of Americans who support the biblical view of the world.
Thank you for your post.
Peter
Oh I understand why some Christians hate Jews. After all the Jews did kill their favorite Jew. We all experience the gore in Gospel According to Mel Gibson. I, however, am of the personal opinion that the gore didn’t at all equal that of the concentration camps in suffering or in magnitude. I doubt it was any more horrible the treatment of slaves in early days of America – probably mostly by the religious right.
He started a lot of threads --- his site, his thoughts. We are talking about everything but "is there a God" - Evolution, Epoman's chair, etc. I am reading a lot of "this is what I think and I don't want to know what you think" -- I do want to know. I want to know why Buddist believe what they do, how Jews and Muslims live by the Old Testement. But, no one will post now, for fear of a lecture or being put down. For now, I am going back to praying for my cousin and her baby in Haiti. That is a bigger problem than who is right or wrong on this thread.
Great post Monrein. I agree with all of your points and would greatly enjoy people defending their beliefs on why they do or do not believe in God. Unfortunately, there is a small cabal of folks here that would rather mock and insult that gets in the way of that. In a debate or discussion, it is customary to place reasons for the side of the discussion that people are supporting. Clearing up incorrect assessments of my faith is one of the main issues that I have engaged in showing just what the Bible does or does not say. I agree, I would love to hear other opinions as well if done in a respectful manner including and most especially one of the largest held views of Americans who support the biblical view of the world.
Thank you for your post.
Peter
Peter, your final sentence here confuses me, especially the last half. Do you mean that you want to hear most especially from other Americans who happen to hold views identical to your own? Wouldn't that be somewhat akin to talking to yourself?
The issue of Rabbits chewing their cud is another easily answered question from Bible skeptics. They do eat their cud, not as a ruminant, but they chew their feces and ingest them again. Take a look:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/audio/answers-daily/volume-064/rabbits-chew-their-cud
The issue of Rabbits chewing their cud is another easily answered question from Bible skeptics. They do eat their cud, not as a ruminant, but they chew their feces and ingest them again. Take a look:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/audio/answers-daily/volume-064/rabbits-chew-their-cud
This paper on the gastrointestinal function of rabbits disagrees with you.
http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2008&PID=23995&O=Generic
"Three to eight hours after eating, soft mucus-covered caecal pellets (caecotrophs) are expelled and eaten directly from the anus. Arrival of the caecotrophs at the anus triggers a reflex licking of the anus and ingestion of the caecotrophs, which are swallowed whole and not chewed."
"Three to eight hours after eating, soft mucus-covered caecal pellets (caecotrophs) are expelled and eaten directly from the anus. Arrival of the caecotrophs at the anus triggers a reflex licking of the anus and ingestion of the caecotrophs, which are swallowed whole and not chewed."
I'm certainly pleased that God saw fit to NOT design humans in this way...I'm very flexible in actual fact but certainly NOT that flexible...either physically or in my eating habits.
The issue of Rabbits chewing their cud is another easily answered question from Bible skeptics. They do eat their cud, not as a ruminant, but they chew their feces and ingest them again. Take a look:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/audio/answers-daily/volume-064/rabbits-chew-their-cud
This paper on the gastrointestinal function of rabbits disagrees with you.
http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2008&PID=23995&O=Generic
"Three to eight hours after eating, soft mucus-covered caecal pellets (caecotrophs) are expelled and eaten directly from the anus. Arrival of the caecotrophs at the anus triggers a reflex licking of the anus and ingestion of the caecotrophs, which are swallowed whole and not chewed."
Good freaking God what is that?
On second thought, DO NOT answer!!
This thread is not "Is the Bible fact or fiction?"
I hope you all keep getting along because I am in the mood to ban someone. Do not take my kindness for weakness.
okarol/admin
Please note Okarol is admin/owner not a moderator. And I will tell you, I bow to her :bow;
And the rabbit stuff was gross.
I like God. :thumbup;
Oh I understand why some Christians hate Jews. After all the Jews did kill their favorite Jew. We all experience the gore in Gospel According to Mel Gibson. I, however, am of the personal opinion that the gore didn’t at all equal that of the concentration camps in suffering or in magnitude. I doubt it was any more horrible the treatment of slaves in early days of America – probably mostly by the religious right.
Dan, Christians don't hate Jews. It goes completely against Bible teachings. Any so called Christians that hate Jews are not following the teachings of the Bible.
I would like to debate other believers, of other beliefs, but most of you don't believe in anything but a "higher Power". What's that? A tree, a mountain? You have nothing to quote your beliefs, but "how you feel".
See my mother was in AA for years and has always used that term higher power, and spiritual. I always just thew it all into one. God and your relationship with God. But when you actually think about it I'm just not sure anymore. And I don't believe that higher power is just anything. And if someone choses to believe in a tree or rock what is wrong with that?
Would someone please list and define all acceptable topics. Anyone else find it ironic that though there is a stay on topic rule that can be imposed at will by one or two participants, that the title of this entire section of thread has "off topic" in it?
I'm certainly pleased that God saw fit to NOT design humans in this way...I'm very flexible in actual fact but certainly NOT that flexible...either physically or in my eating habits.
You know, it is not A Higher Power. It is MY Higher Power. Most of us acknowledge one. Hey, its not a tree but rather the source of all trees. It is not even all nature, but rather the source of all nature. I is not only humanity or inhumanity, but rather the source of all humanity and inhumanity. My Higher Power is love and hate all rolled into one, good things and evil things. May all, Christians, Jews, Muslims and all other humans, find a way to bring the good things forward and change and work with as many of the bad things as we can!