Is there a GOD? - ding! ding! ding ding geeeeet reaaaaaady toooooo rummmmble!!!!

[Hemodoc]

God was talking to a scientist and the scientist was saying it was no big deal to create people from dirt and that he could do it scientifically.  God said go ahead.  So, the scientist picked up a glob of dirt and God said "wait a minute.... make your own dirt".

                 

Dear Rerun, what a great segue to the entire issue of the big bang.  A simple question with no answer is, where did the matter come from in the big bang.  NO ONE has the answer to that.  They complain that I can't explain where God came from, but they likewise have no answer for where all of the dirt came from that made all of the things we are and see.  We believe in the beginning God, they believe in the beginning dirt.  Both turn out to be matters of belief and faith.

[tyefly]

Dear Rerun, unfortunately, most people that say that they believe in evolution do not actually understand what paleontology says about the fossil record and the lack of transitional forms between the fossils recovered.  There are so many examples of incorrect family trees such as the evolution of horses.  Some are outright frauds.  Here is a discussion on this issue.

http://us1.harunyahya.com/Detail/T/F98V7T9P299/productId/19833/THE_EVOLUTION_OF_THE_HORSE_SERIES_IS_A_FRAUD

Very Disappointing .......     Have you looked at the sources that this material came from.....     Very disappointing...     



EDITED: Fixed quote tag error - okarol/admin

[Hemodoc]

Dear Tyefly, sorry about the link.  Actually few understand that the Muslim religion is an old earth creationist supporter which I found interesting since most folks haven't heard that.  I have read through other areas by this author that actually have very interesting science on evolution.  There are many that are creationists, but not all that support the Bible.

The central issue with horse evolution is that the usual horse charts of evolution are based on the work of Othniel Marsh in the late 1800's.  However, over 50 years ago, the commonly accepted evidence was refuted by George Gaylord Simpson. Yet we still find the work of Marsh still used in textbooks as if it is established fact when it is not.  If evolution is such an established fact, why do we find that their examples have been refuted so many times.

Tyefly, here is a better write up on this issue.  I hope this is more helpful.

http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/v6i5f.htm

[tyefly]

    Peter.....  this article has the same flavor as the previous article....   It amazes me what we can do with words.... and How words can persuade thoughts....    I will agree that there has been many so called truths  that have been shown to be non truths.... both in Science , evolution, and religion... we find new answers every day.... just because it written in words does not make it the truth...... You and I know that as most people should....  Christian Science people have some beliefs that are really scary.....   Some social scientist do as well....  and  Some religion is just not the truth...  Is anything the truth.........  almost everything can be disputed....   DNA  has been a real eye opener  but it might be proven wrong in the future....  The one think That I will agree with is we don't have all the answers.... not in the bible and not in science...  where did all this  " Matter  "come from .... so called dirt.....  That is something none of will ever know.....  For me I believe in evolution, why not .... things change all the time...  just because we don't have all the pieces doesn't mean that we were not correct is our observation with change....   Change is a positive notion....  and again   everything that I have wrote here is just that... words and thoughts  which mean nothing.... except to us......

[Hemodoc]

    Peter.....  this article has the same flavor as the previous article....   It amazes me what we can do with words.... and How words can persuade thoughts....    I will agree that there has been many so called truths  that have been shown to be non truths.... both in Science , evolution, and religion... we find new answers every day.... just because it written in words does not make it the truth...... You and I know that as most people should....  Christian Science people have some beliefs that are really scary.....   Some social scientist do as well....  and  Some religion is just not the truth...  Is anything the truth.........  almost everything can be disputed....   DNA  has been a real eye opener  but it might be proven wrong in the future....  The one think That I will agree with is we don't have all the answers.... not in the bible and not in science...  where did all this  " Matter  "come from .... so called dirt.....  That is something none of will ever know.....  For me I believe in evolution, why not .... things change all the time...  just because we don't have all the pieces doesn't mean that we were not correct is our observation with change....   Change is a positive notion....  and again   everything that I have wrote here is just that... words and thoughts  which mean nothing.... except to us......

Dear Tyefly, thanks for the good post.  The real issue is that evolution turns out to be an unproven and unprovable proposition.  Much of it is not science at all but pure conjecture and it in itself takes on an air of religion.  The theory of evolution is accepted as truth in science today, but many in science do not accept it and by reason of the complexity of life believe in intelligent design (ID).  Many folks that believe in ID do not believe in God or the Bible or any religion.    I think Epoman summed it up well that when he looked at his son, he just knew that all of this did not happen by chance through selected mutations.  I concur that the evidence of the complexity of life defies the incredible workings of the simplest living cells.  I believe the best explanation is the God of the Bible who is the intelligent designer.

[Stoday]

Dear Hemodoc, Let’s keep it simple. The question raised by this thread is “Is there a God?” The purpose of the discussion about evolution is that if evolution happened, then God didn’t create life in the way the Bible describes and may not exist. On the other hand, if life were created, God probably does exist.

It’s not possible to say how life started because it happened so long ago that any sign of it has long been obliterated. However it is not necessary to know how life started to disprove the literal Bible story. It’s only necessary to show that evolution occurred. Time has not obliterated the record of evolution.

The requirements to show that evolution occurred are very strict. It says that to be adopted by the species population, each change is minor and must be an advantage to the species in its environment. With time, and environmental separation from the parent species, a new species may develop.

I have said that in 150 years, nothing has been found that cannot be explained by evolution. Hemodoc says there are thousands of examples, but, I'm sorry to say, fails to quote even one.

Finally I never said that man was poorly designed. I said that if God designed man, he made a poor job of it because the design was barely adequate and failed for part of the population. But that is exactly what you’d expect from evolution. Take kidneys for example. They only have to perform a little worse on average and the whole population would die out. All those things the kidney does it has to do otherwise we would not have evolved.

Another of my thoughts. If there is a God, how could he create this: Click for video

[jennyc]

God was talking to a scientist and the scientist was saying it was no big deal to create people from dirt and that he could do it scientifically.  God said go ahead.  So, the scientist picked up a glob of dirt and God said "wait a minute.... make your own dirt".

                 

Dear Rerun, what a great segue to the entire issue of the big bang.  A simple question with no answer is, where did the matter come from in the big bang.  NO ONE has the answer to that.  They complain that I can't explain where God came from, but they likewise have no answer for where all of the dirt came from that made all of the things we are and see.  We believe in the beginning God, they believe in the beginning dirt.  Both turn out to be matters of belief and faith.

They believe it to be the Higgs Bosson particle or more aptly named "The God Particle" it's what they are searching for in the 'smasher'. It's really cool. Kind of like science and religion meeting in the middle.

[paris]

I think Epoman would be very amused that his thoughts were being used to prove "is there a God?".   He gives his opinion,  not His opinion.   

I also think that if someone answers "yes, I believe in God"  the question here quickly becomes "but do you believe in my God?".  And then we are told, by stating quotes, why we are wrong in how we believe.   I celebrate everyone who lives by the rules their God (or nature,etc) has given them.  If you compare;  most of us live good lives, helping others, doing no harm, honoring each other. 

Del---where are you? You let go of my arm and now here I am again!   

[tyefly]

Another of my thoughts. If there is a God, how could he create this: Click for video

Certainly interesting....  there are so many organisms that have symbiotic relationships....  some we need  some we don't.....  Truly  all forms of life are unique..... I like that.....that is my passion......
  To me I would be more concern on a social level.....   how we behave and what we do to each other.....  the killing of children,,, the starvation of many people,,,, the torture,,,   there are some real ugly parts of life that at times makes me ashamed to be human......  but that is another story......

Like Paris  said..... for most of us... we try to do the right things....  we try to be good people....  you cant go wrong with that......  no matter what you believe.....   

[del]

Paris, now I'm going to have to sit on you to keep you on the couch!!

[dwcrawford]

Application for Sainthood

All IHD members who want to be considered for canonization, please submit your name along with a 20,000 word essay describing the miracles you’ve perform and/or other reasons that you should be considered.

Footnote:   I did not know Epoman.  He was gone long before I ever knew I had a kidney.  Today I went back and read some of his writings in a different light.  I’d never pretend to KNOW his thoughts but, correct me if I am wrong people who knew him, I saw a slight glint in the eye  in  many of his postings.  I  have no idea his original intent, but I could guess as much as anyone else and I feel like he meant “discuss”.  Never once did I think it was a platform for zealots to come in and proselytize.   

And please, do not confuse my comment regarding communication skills with my belief or not in evolution.     

   I only went to church because I liked the music....
    Anybocy know why Southern Baptist (that was me once) won't skpy pry standing up?   

Edited - Fixed smiley error: paris, Moderator

[fc2821]

Application for Sainthood

All IHD memberd who want to be considered for canonization, please submit your name along with a 20,000 word essay describing the miracles you’ve perform and/or other reasons that you should be considered.

Footnote:   I did not know Epoman.  He was gone long before I ever knew I had a kidney.  Today I went back and read some of his writings in a different light.  I’d never pretend to KNOW his thoughts but, correct me if I am wrong people who knew him, I saw a slight glint in the eye  in  many of his postings.  I  have no idea his original intent, but I could guess as much as anyone else and I feel like he meant “discuss”.  Never once did I think it was a platform for zealots to come in and proselytize.   

And please, do not confuse my comment regarding communication skills with my belief or not in evolution.     

 :shy;I only went to church because I liked the music....
 :bandance;Anybocy know why Southern Baptist (that was me once) won't skpy pry standing up?

 

Hey, Dan pass the popcorn, please.

[tyefly]

  I am glad your here Rob......    after reading that   I got scared of those big words......zealots to come in and proselytize..... had to look them up........ not as smart as the rest of you.....

   here I have a bag for you.....        

[fc2821]

  I am glad your here Rob......    after reading that   I got scared of those big words......zealots to come in and proselytize..... had to look them up........ not as smart as the rest of you.....

   here I have a bag for you.....        

Thanks   

[fc2821]

tyefly your just as smart as anyone else, and smarter than some. 

[dwcrawford]

Tyefly, you are certainly smarter than I am... and far more versed on this subject.  Not being versed on a subject has never hindered me from comment however.

Where's the Popcorn?

[fc2821]

Here it is Dan.

[willowtreewren]

 

Popcorn in hand....

 

[dwcrawford]

 

more butter please

[Hemodoc]

God was talking to a scientist and the scientist was saying it was no big deal to create people from dirt and that he could do it scientifically.  God said go ahead.  So, the scientist picked up a glob of dirt and God said "wait a minute.... make your own dirt".

                 

Dear Rerun, what a great segue to the entire issue of the big bang.  A simple question with no answer is, where did the matter come from in the big bang.  NO ONE has the answer to that.  They complain that I can't explain where God came from, but they likewise have no answer for where all of the dirt came from that made all of the things we are and see.  We believe in the beginning God, they believe in the beginning dirt.  Both turn out to be matters of belief and faith.

They believe it to be the Higgs Bosson particle or more aptly named "The God Particle" it's what they are searching for in the 'smasher'. It's really cool. Kind of like science and religion meeting in the middle.

Dear jennyc, kinda of neat issue, the only problem with using this as science is it is completely hypothetical.  It also doesn't explain where the matter that makes up the universe comes from in the first place.  The first cause.  Where did all of this dirt come from in the first place.  If we exclude God, we still come back to matters of faith in what you believe.  In the beginning dirt, or in the beginning God.  Both are religious.

The Higgs boson is a hypothetical massive scalar elementary particle predicted to exist by the Standard Model in particle physics. At present there are no known fundamental scalar particles in nature.
The Higgs boson is the only Standard Model particle that has not been observed. Experimental detection of the Higgs boson would help explain the origin of mass in the universe. The Higgs boson would explain the difference between the massless photon, which mediates electromagnetism, and the massive W and Z bosons, which mediate the weak force. If the Higgs boson exists, it is an integral and pervasive component of the material world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson

[Hanify]

Who needs popcorn...
 

[Hemodoc]

Dear Hemodoc, Let’s keep it simple. The question raised by this thread is “Is there a God?” The purpose of the discussion about evolution is that if evolution happened, then God didn’t create life in the way the Bible describes and may not exist. On the other hand, if life were created, God probably does exist.

It’s not possible to say how life started because it happened so long ago that any sign of it has long been obliterated. However it is not necessary to know how life started to disprove the literal Bible story. It’s only necessary to show that evolution occurred. Time has not obliterated the record of evolution.

The requirements to show that evolution occurred are very strict. It says that to be adopted by the species population, each change is minor and must be an advantage to the species in its environment. With time, and environmental separation from the parent species, a new species may develop.

I have said that in 150 years, nothing has been found that cannot be explained by evolution. Hemodoc says there are thousands of examples, but, I'm sorry to say, fails to quote even one.

Finally I never said that man was poorly designed. I said that if God designed man, he made a poor job of it because the design was barely adequate and failed for part of the population. But that is exactly what you’d expect from evolution. Take kidneys for example. They only have to perform a little worse on average and the whole population would die out. All those things the kidney does it has to do otherwise we would not have evolved.

Another of my thoughts. If there is a God, how could he create this: Click for video

Dear Stoday, Let's look at the poor design issue. As far as the kidney goes, you can live a completely normal life with absolutely no diminished capacity with only a little worse than average renal function.  In fact, the normal GFR in a person without any renal dysfunction is usually 120-125. We don't start renal replacement therapy until we get below a GFR of 10-15%. 

http://www.transonic.com/gfr.shtml

That right there is a 92% safety margin.  Indeed, how many people are still running around with only 10-15% of their brain function used.  Whoops, that's all of us!!  We could go through a whole lot of organs and systems to show the same built in safety values, nothing to speak of the immune system, the blood clotting system, etc.

In addition, you said earlier that natural selection is where we got all of these marvelous features we know as the "higher" order creatures.  Yet, natural selection has no creative function, it selects.  What does it select, from random mutations of the DNA.  When I was in college in the ancient days of the 1980's, that is what was taught and that is what we believed.  But not today, you can't say that evolution is based on randomness, it is just not politically correct. 

So, how do we go from a one celled organism, I will give that to you for the sake of argument even though the "science" of abiogenesis is really getting hammered the more we learn, and then develop all of our systems by random chance.  Sir Fred Hoyle understood this quite well and voted against the prevailing beliefs due to too little time, too little matter, but I will give you the primordial soup cell and you get to go from there with natural selection.  Many say that evolution is not a random process, but a little understanding of math would clear up that myth quickly.  Natural selection acts up random mutations.  When you look at this process, random mutations are the independent variable and natural selection is the dependent variable.  In other words, no random mutations, no natural selection to select.

So, how do we get these incredible systems and organs and creatures through a random process of random mutations?  The creative force of the evolution theory is random mutations, not natural selection.  So, how do we get from the soup to the stew so to speak?  How do we know this?

[Hemodoc]

Application for Sainthood

All IHD members who want to be considered for canonization, please submit your name along with a 20,000 word essay describing the miracles you’ve perform and/or other reasons that you should be considered.

Footnote:   I did not know Epoman.  He was gone long before I ever knew I had a kidney.  Today I went back and read some of his writings in a different light.  I’d never pretend to KNOW his thoughts but, correct me if I am wrong people who knew him, I saw a slight glint in the eye  in  many of his postings.  I  have no idea his original intent, but I could guess as much as anyone else and I feel like he meant “discuss”.  Never once did I think it was a platform for zealots to come in and proselytize.   

And please, do not confuse my comment regarding communication skills with my belief or not in evolution.     

 :shy;I only went to church because I liked the music....
 :bandance;Anybocy know why Southern Baptist (that was me once) won't skpy pry standing up?

Thanks for the offer, but the Bible calls all of those that are saved as saints, I'll pass on the Vatican's version and go with the real McCoy.

[Hemodoc]

Dear Stoday, let's keep my examples simple per your request.  Please explain DNA by evolution.

[Hemodoc]

Dear Hemodoc, Let’s keep it simple. The question raised by this thread is “Is there a God?” The purpose of the discussion about evolution is that if evolution happened, then God didn’t create life in the way the Bible describes and may not exist. On the other hand, if life were created, God probably does exist.

It’s not possible to say how life started because it happened so long ago that any sign of it has long been obliterated. However it is not necessary to know how life started to disprove the literal Bible story. It’s only necessary to show that evolution occurred. Time has not obliterated the record of evolution.

The requirements to show that evolution occurred are very strict. It says that to be adopted by the species population, each change is minor and must be an advantage to the species in its environment. With time, and environmental separation from the parent species, a new species may develop.

I have said that in 150 years, nothing has been found that cannot be explained by evolution. Hemodoc says there are thousands of examples, but, I'm sorry to say, fails to quote even one.

Finally I never said that man was poorly designed. I said that if God designed man, he made a poor job of it because the design was barely adequate and failed for part of the population. But that is exactly what you’d expect from evolution. Take kidneys for example. They only have to perform a little worse on average and the whole population would die out. All those things the kidney does it has to do otherwise we would not have evolved.

Another of my thoughts. If there is a God, how could he create this: Click for video

Dear Stoday, the Bible states that he created the "kinds" of animals in the world and that they then bring forth after their kind. All that you will be able to describe is in the realm of microevolution or simply a change or variation of the kind of animal, but you will not ever find an example of macroevolution showing a dog becoming a cat.  In such, every example that you can bring to light will only confirm what the Bible said thousands of years ago, the animals bringing forth after their kind through their seed.  What is unscientific about this?