Is there a GOD? - ding! ding! ding ding geeeeet reaaaaaady toooooo rummmmble!!!!

[dwcrawford]

Oh my, and you guys get down on me because I can't spell and because I don't believe in calling uninformed people stupid.  Don't usually discuss relition or politices except with open mined friends so I'll stay out of this and the Obama threads excpet to admit to being an agnostic humanist and a liberal democrat.  And that I think this is funny.

[monrein]

I would rather be judged by those who know me and the good works I do.

I truly believe in life before death.

It makes me sad that those who don't know me think that I must be a bad person since I live a full and happy life without a belief in any god. I'm not evil or immoral. But many prejudge me as a secular humanist. I am a celebrant and perform secular marriages and funerals for others who live as I do.

I only believe in one fewer god than most of the rest of society. Nobody thinks it is absurd not to believe in Zeus or Thor. I don't believe in them either.

I sport a bumper sticker on my car that says:

The world is my country. To do good is my religion. ~ Thomas Paine

Aleta

I'm on the same bus as you Aleta and I like how you stated the secular humanist position.  I'm always very puzzled by how divisive religion and religious beliefs can be.   Most of the world religions have far more in common than most people realize, most state a clear belief in tolerance, charity and all sorts of good things and yet more awful things are done in the name of the various religions than seems possible to my brain.   

[dwcrawford]

scoot over morein and willow....save me a seat on the bus.

[willowtreewren]

Sure enough, Dan.

Gail, the divisiveness of religion is one of the great mysteries for me. One of the basic tenets of most of the world's more prominent religions is to do unto others as you would have others do unto you. So, what gives?

And who is acting more morally: the person who fears consequences in some afterlife for bad behavior, or the person who believes that acting compassionately is its own reward? Many people of faith think that those without it will be running rampant, raping and pillaging. If faith is the only thing keeping them from doing so, I surely don't want them to lose their beliefs.

For me, though, being a part of the human family is enough to for me to want to leave the world a better place than when I entered it.

I had a near death experience several years ago. I heard the roaring and saw the light and all that. At first I thought the noise and light would damage my ears and eyes and then I realized that it was coming from inside my head (probably from oxygen starvation). I found it to be a very interesting experience and could see how those with a religious world view would attribute it to something supernatural.

I don't want to get into arguments with anyone over this. I respect that there are many, many different world views that are near and dear to each individual. I would just like to be afforded the same respect and tolerance.

In the words of Robert Green Ingersoll, "We are all one human family, wanting love, fairness and freedom. This simple creed is all that we need to enjoy peace on earth."

Aleta

[dwcrawford]

Even those with similar religions are intolerant of one another.  You see instances of priest, rabbi, etc. working together but they are so rare that it calls attention to itself.  In the words of Madelyn Murry Ohara  (whose atheism was as much a religuin as any) said with truth that hatred and wars were commited in the name of relition than any other phenoenan.  My father's wisdom was "Don't rock the boat.  One of them could just be right so lets don't upset them."  You know, just in case.  Tongue-in-Cheek.

While I would stand up for anyone's right to believe in the God of their choice, I want to be able to make my choice. 

[cariad]

And who is acting more morally: the person who fears consequences in some afterlife for bad behavior, or the person who believes that acting compassionately is its own reward? Many people of faith think that those without it will be running rampant, raping and pillaging. If faith is the only thing keeping them from doing so, I surely don't want them to lose their beliefs.

Aleta, the famous anthropologist E.O. Wilson has made similar points to these, and they make perfect sense to me.

I would identify as a humanist, except I don't think I know enough about what makes a humanist to do it justice when people inevitably ask me to define that. I find it keeps the conversation quicker to just say atheist.

Both Kurt Vonnegut (one of my favorite authors) and Isaac Asimov identify as humanists. Kurt Vonnegut wrote that he delivered his favorite joke ever at a humanist gathering after Isaac Asimov passed away. Kurt Vonnegut opened his tribute to Asimov with "Well, Isaac's in heaven now." He said the crowd laughed uproariously, and that he personally liked the joke so much, that he hoped that that would be what people would say when he died. So, when I heard of Kurt Vonnegut's death two years ago, I immediately turned to my husband and said "Well, Kurt's in heaven now."

I can completely relate to being viewed as a bad person because of a lack of belief in a god. I once took an intensive language course and there was a man there who clearly, clearly had a crush on me, despite the fact that he knew I was married and had a child. We spent two weeks hanging out, with me trying to ignore the uncomfortable signals he was beaming at me. One day he described himself at lunch as "a Jesus-loving Southern boy" and asked me some question or other about me. I replied that I was an atheist, and his face just collapsed in horror and he stammered "really?" Just like that, the crush disappeared! There is always an upside! 

[Des]

I do believe in God....Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit

Thats it... I won't be quoting a famous person or go into a discussion or try to explain it. I just believe!

He is there ... and that is that for me... I do get my strength from God.. I will say it again... I do believe in God. He is my saviour.


 --- each to their own. 
Not judging anyone....

[dwcrawford]

Most of us believe in a higher power.  We can call it god if you want.  Thou we (I) don't know exactly what that higher power is.  Doubting it is a benevolent old man, but who knows.  I repeat, WHO knows?

[Kitsune]

Yes, and His name is Thor, The All-Father

[-Lady Noir-]

Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion"
Best book i've ever read.

[Stoday]

Richard Dawkins' new book, "The Greatest Show on Earth" is published in the UK on September 3rd.

My copy's on order. 

[Stoday]

Yes, there is a God...and Yes all prayers are answered.

Sometimes...the answer is NO.

I'm sure the guys piloting the airplanes on Sept 11th 2001 were praying hard for the success of their mission.

Pity no-one was praying for its failure. He might then have said "no".

[dwcrawford]

Wow... finally a subject that we do have experts on...  How exactly did you all get those answers for sure?  Either way, I mean.

[Wenchie58]

I wouldn't say it's "experts".  An opinion was asked for and given, not reason to belittle anyone.

[Hanify]

Wow... finally a subject that we do have experts on...  How exactly did you all get those answers for sure?  Either way, I mean.

That's the point isn't it?  It's just faith.  There's no rhyme or reason to believe or not believe.  It just IS for some people.

[LightLizard]

the thing i've never been able to get a decent answer from the 'faithful' is;

the beliefs that have grown from the bible were created and written by people many centuries ago. in those times the common belief regarding the shape of our planet was that the earth was believed to be flat. it was also believed that if one travelled far enough, they would fall off of the edge of the earth and be consumed by demons. people of those times were not aware of the fact that bathing for cleanliness could actually prolong your life. my question is; how could a people that believed these things possibly know how the universe was created and who did it? seems to me that if you were ignorant about the very ground you walked on, you wouldn't have much of a chance when it came to perceiving ultimate reality.
just wonderin'...
 

[Hanify]

Everyone's different though.  So my answer as a Christian will not be the same as another answer from another Christian.  So there's no point me answering you - it's only my opinion.  I can't answer for other Christians about the bible or fundamental beliefs.  This is the problem a lot of Muslims face too - everyone assumes they all think the same way which they don't.  I think the bible is an interesting historical document.  I read it out of interest, but I certainly don't think I have to follow everything in it.  You can't.  To me the main point is the life of Jesus, and how he would have reacted to things.  So understanding and forgiveness and trying to make a difference in the world by being a good person is my focus.  Not the details of who did what and when.  I don't believe the world was created in 7 days - and it makes no difference to me if you don't believe that Jesus was the son of God.  You could bring me absolute proof that he wasn't the son of God and it really wouldn't make any difference to me.  I'll still try to follow his principals cos I think he was a good man.  I have no problem with people following other people like Buddha.  If they're trying to be a better person then that's good.  Again, this is me.  Other Christians have a totally different way of looking at things, and that's all valid too.  As long as they don't try to put me down they can believe what they like.  But don't lump us all into the same basket.

[Wenchie58]

Very well said Hanify.  We all have our own "higher power".  There have been times that my higher power was Jose Cuervo!  Made me ten foot tall and bulletproof......til morning.   

[BigSky]

the thing i've never been able to get a decent answer from the 'faithful' is;

the beliefs that have grown from the bible were created and written by people many centuries ago. in those times the common belief regarding the shape of our planet was that the earth was believed to be flat. it was also believed that if one travelled far enough, they would fall off of the edge of the earth and be consumed by demons. people of those times were not aware of the fact that bathing for cleanliness could actually prolong your life. my question is; how could a people that believed these things possibly know how the universe was created and who did it? seems to me that if you were ignorant about the very ground you walked on, you wouldn't have much of a chance when it came to perceiving ultimate reality.
just wonderin'...
 

Those things never originated with those who wrote the books of the bible. 

They are misconceptions applied by people who read the bible and didnt understand the context of what was said and so they applied things from culture at the time and their logic that was formed at that time based on their culture.

This is only compounded today by certain elements trying to remove the bible and its teachings from all aspects of life.

[Hemodoc]

the thing i've never been able to get a decent answer from the 'faithful' is;

the beliefs that have grown from the bible were created and written by people many centuries ago. in those times the common belief regarding the shape of our planet was that the earth was believed to be flat. it was also believed that if one travelled far enough, they would fall off of the edge of the earth and be consumed by demons. people of those times were not aware of the fact that bathing for cleanliness could actually prolong your life. my question is; how could a people that believed these things possibly know how the universe was created and who did it? seems to me that if you were ignorant about the very ground you walked on, you wouldn't have much of a chance when it came to perceiving ultimate reality.
just wonderin'...
 

I guess my first question is, have you ever read the Bible (OT) and the laws on cleanliness?  The Judeo-Christian heritage is one of cleanliness.  Bathing is specifically outlined many times in the Jewish laws.

Second, have you ever read in the Bible where God talks of stretching out the universe and the circle of the earth?  Try Hebrews 11:1-2 where God speaks of the things which appear being made of things which do not appear.  Having dabled a little bit in my education with quantum mechanics, there are many verses that are very interesting indeed completely in accord with what we know centuries later from so called science.

The other myths that you reference are not of Christian origin such as falling off the edge of the earth.

Ultimate reality is the essence of the Bible.  It is a truly wonderful and amazing book that I am thankful for everyday.

I became a born again Christian in 1994 after a friend of mine hit me over the head, so to speak, with Bible prophecy.   That was after I already had my BS in biology and MD.  Of a certainty, the Bible is a much greater book than what its critics incorrectly try to relay.  I would simply recommend reading it for yourself as starters.  You might be surprised what it actually says.

So, yes, Epoman, there is a God who wishes to know all men everywhere and reaches out to all.  I was going to stay away from this thread, but oh well, let's discuss what the Bible really says instead of false attributes that come from other sources.  In the very least, I am not sure how anyone can attribute filth and lack of cleanliness to the Bible. That is simply a false statement if I can be so bold as to relay what the Bible really says about bathing and cleanliness.  There are countless verses on this subject throughout the entire Bible. 

[willowtreewren]

Those things never originated with those who wrote the books of the bible.

They are misconceptions applied by people who read the bible and didnt understand the context of what was said and so they applied things from culture at the time and their logic that was formed at that time based on their culture.

This is only compounded today by certain elements trying to remove the bible and its teachings from all aspects of life.

I just don't get this. It seems to me, that if God wanted the teachings of the Bible to stand the test of time, it would have been written in a way that would be easy to understand for all times and all cultures.

This is one of those conundrums that I just can't get past.

There are some truly awful things in the Bible that any moral person would rightly choose not to follow. So, if it is the word of God, I can think of a kinder, gentler God than the God of the Bible. And if it is all right to pick and choose what parts of the Bible to follow (and/or believe) then it is okay not to believe that any of it is true, I suppose.

There are just so many aspects of religion that confuse me. I find that my atheist friends are much more tolerant of religious beliefs and those that adhere to them than religious folks are tolerant of the faithless. Since tolerance is a tenet of most religions, I find this ironic to the extreme.

I refrain from putting my world view on public display because most religious folks find public displays of atheism offensive. On the other hand, it seems that public displays of faith are all right, regardless of how offensive they may seem to those who don't share them.

I am not trying to convert anyone. I am just sincerely puzzled by this dichotomy. I am also not trying to be critical or belittle anyone.

I just prefer to live in the here and now, and work to make the world in which we live a better place. I don't do this in order to gain any eternal reward, but just because I am part of the human family. I'm not afraid of death because it is nothing. But I sure want to make the most of my life, because that is all I have.

I respect that most people have a different view of things, and that is fine - in fact, good. While I don't consider others' world view a reason to shun them, I have found that I am routinely shunned by those who do have a faithful world view. I am part of the most reviled (though growing) minority.

I really, really appreciate those who know that I live without faith in (one fewer) God and still like me for who I am and what I do.

Aleta

[del]

Aleta, I am tolerant of anybody's beliefs whether or not they are 'religious" or not. Personally I think morals and ethics are more important than anything.  I hate it when people try to push their religious beliefs on me (it has happened on more than one occasion).  I know there is freedom of speech but that doesn't mean you have to push your set of beliefs on other people.  Just leave me alone!!  Your set of beliefs is personal.   What a wonderful world it would be if we were all tolerant of each other and respected each other. To me the biggest thing is to accept people for who they are.  Just my    Seems like most of the problems in the world have been caused because of religion!!

[willowtreewren]

Thanks, Del!

 

[BigSky]

Those things never originated with those who wrote the books of the bible.

They are misconceptions applied by people who read the bible and didnt understand the context of what was said and so they applied things from culture at the time and their logic that was formed at that time based on their culture.

This is only compounded today by certain elements trying to remove the bible and its teachings from all aspects of life.

I just don't get this. It seems to me, that if God wanted the teachings of the Bible to stand the test of time, it would have been written in a way that would be easy to understand for all times and all cultures.

This is one of those conundrums that I just can't get past.

There are some truly awful things in the Bible that any moral person would rightly choose not to follow. So, if it is the word of God, I can think of a kinder, gentler God than the God of the Bible. And if it is all right to pick and choose what parts of the Bible to follow (and/or believe) then it is okay not to believe that any of it is true, I suppose.

Aleta

They are easy to understand and do stand the test of time. 

The problem lies with man who thinks things are suppose to fit his own ever changing view on how things are suppose to be to him, not God.  Its man doing what he wants for himself.

As to things in the bible not being moral, that was not from God, that was from man and his own view on how things are suppose to be and made to fit his own view of how things should be to him.

Pick and choose, not sure what you mean so if you could give an example.

[Hemodoc]

Those things never originated with those who wrote the books of the bible.

They are misconceptions applied by people who read the bible and didnt understand the context of what was said and so they applied things from culture at the time and their logic that was formed at that time based on their culture.

This is only compounded today by certain elements trying to remove the bible and its teachings from all aspects of life.

I just don't get this. It seems to me, that if God wanted the teachings of the Bible to stand the test of time, it would have been written in a way that would be easy to understand for all times and all cultures.

This is one of those conundrums that I just can't get past.

There are some truly awful things in the Bible that any moral person would rightly choose not to follow. So, if it is the word of God, I can think of a kinder, gentler God than the God of the Bible. And if it is all right to pick and choose what parts of the Bible to follow (and/or believe) then it is okay not to believe that any of it is true, I suppose.

Aleta

They are easy to understand and do stand the test of time. 

The problem lies with man who thinks things are suppose to fit his own ever changing view on how things are suppose to be to him, not God.

As to things in the bible not being moral, that was not from God, that was from man and his own view on how things are suppose to be and made to fit his own view of how things should be to him.

Pick and choose, not sure what you mean so if you could give an example.

The OT does contain harsh examples of judgement by God against ungodly nations.  Many use these as an example of an "immoral god," when in fact, it is an example of God dealing with these nations according to the law of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

Example:

Judges 1:6: But Adoni-bezek fled; and they pursued after him, and caught him, and cut off his thumbs and his great toes.

1:7: And Adoni-bezek said, Threescore and ten kings, having their thumbs and their great toes cut off, gathered their meat under my table: as I have done, so God hath requited me. And they brought him to Jerusalem, and there he died.

Here is a literal example of using the same form of judgement that Adoni-bezek did unto those that he conquered by cutting off their thumbs and great toes.  Unless some one states that rendering unto the culprit what he rendered unto his victim is immoral, then all that we see with the judgements against the nations conquered is a pure application of the OT law which most would consider justice to render the evil a culprit brings back upon himself. 

What is the purpose of the law? To bring people to repentance of sin.   A harsh reality for Adoni-bezek but clearly I see a degree of repentance on his part when that which he rendered to others returned to him.  This is a lesson for all ages to learn.  On the outset it looks like a harsh act on the part of God, but it was in the end an application of the law, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.  The net result was to reduce evil in the land and personal repentance on the part of Adoni-bezek.  Sometimes the only way to bring this about is to render unto others as we have rendered unto them.  In that sense, the OT Jewish laws thus act as a mirror to our own souls and the need for repentance among all men.

So the problem is not that God is evil, but instead that man is evil.  The Bible is the story of God's plan for the redemption of mankind.  He started with the OT law which was fulfilled in the NT through Jesus Christ of Nazareth.  When we look at the Bible through the eyes of the suffering of Jesus on the cross and why that was done, then the issues of the OT and the judgements of God take on new meaning.

I will personally confess that some of the actions in the OT did trouble me after I became a born again Christian until I came across the example of Adoni-bezek and understood that God's actions and God's judgements against these nations was simply rendering unto them as they had rendered unto those that they conquered.  The laws of justice even here in America can seem harsh until we consider the issue from the eyes of the victim.  Rendering the death penalty unto a serial killer is justice in my eyes.  It honours the memory of the victims that justice was served.  It further removes evil from the earth when done quickly.

To understand the Bible, the best place to start is in understanding why Jesus did what He did.  Why did this just and innocent man die on the cross?  Starting here at this important historical event is the key to understanding the entire Bible.  Until a person looks into this topic, the rest of the Bible shall remain incomprehensible.

I hope this makes a difficult topic a little easier to consider.