Is there a GOD? - ding! ding! ding ding geeeeet reaaaaaady toooooo rummmmble!!!!

[fc2821]

  Paris is right, be nice.

[fc2821]

   Oh, I know I shouldn't, but I am curious.  Hemodoc, may I ask, why do you think DNA proves the existance of God? I don't mean to start a  just want to know what his views are. So please everyone let's remain calm and civil.  Thank you.

[Hemodoc]

Ok inspired by thread: http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=620.0 that topic was getting off course, it was about gays and marriage. It turned into a GOD debate. Well lets continue the debate here.

Is there a GOD? I personally believe YES! I can't imagine that with the complexity of the human body especially the brain, and all the feelings we have, that go hand in hand, for example sex, it serves a purpose and it FEELS GOOD!  I just can't imagine that we were an accident, a "Big Bang" happened and a million years later we have Tivo.  There are so many beautiful things in this world that are just too perfect. Some people say we evolved from apes, well they can bite my ass. If apes evolved into man, why are there still apes? Is the bible right I hope so! remember though, it was written by man, and things do get lost in translation. I don't know which religion is correct, there are so many! Catholics believe Christians are going to hell and Christians believe Catholics are going to hell, and everyone thinks buddhists are all going to burn. Who is right? I personally think that as long as you believe in a GOD and live a good life, you will go to heaven when you die, if I didn't believe in GOD and NO forgiveness for the ultimate sin (suicide) I would have offed myself 13 years ago. But I fear GOD and I try to follow his rules as much as possible. Because when I die I want to go to heaven and chill with "THE MAN" and talk about the mysteries of the universe, things like what ever happened to Jimmy Hoffa?

Well that should start things off....

DISCUSS!

Dear Rocker, if you want to start another thread on evolution that is fine, but why all of the rules and regulations on this thread to limit discussion on is there a God.  Evolution and the question of is there a God go hand in hand and was in the original part of this thread.  Epoman did not believe in evolution, he just didn't buy it.  "They can bite my ass."  My comments on evolution or lack thereof are completely on topic with the issue of is there a God.  The above quotation from Epoman is how he started this thread.

In addition, the Bible states that God has given us the evidence of God by the things that He has made:

Romans 1:18: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19: Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Once again, you can talk about whatever you want, but it looks like Epoman wanted to talk about the God of the Bible, why he didn't believe in evolution and what everyone else had to say about this topic.  Evolution is absolutely not off topic on this thread at all.

Thank you,

Peter

[dwcrawford]

Totally agree with Hemodoc on the issue of the  topic.  But remember the topis was "Is there a god... and not "Is there an Epoman.  Don't see what Epoman earlier posts have to do with this topic.

Speaking of staying on TOPIC...

For anyone who plays the word association game... I say God, you reply Church, I reply Baptist, you reply Jesus, I reply salvation, you replay creation, I reply divine, you reply intervention, I reply evolution, ...  get my point.  Staying on topic is different for each individual.  You say god, I say higher power, ... You say Epoman, I say nice guy.

[dwcrawford]

oops  sorry Paris and carol and rob.  The devil made me do it.

[Hemodoc]

   Oh, I know I shouldn't, but I am curious.  Hemodoc, may I ask, why do you think DNA proves the existance of God? I don't mean to start a  just want to know what his views are. So please everyone let's remain calm and civil.  Thank you.

Rob, great question.

Beyond the absolute complexity of life is a factor found with in DNA that frames the question at hand.  DNA contains information and not just randomly organized information, it contains coded information.  In addition, this coded information has its own language. The magnitude of the language found in one cell in our body would fill the equivalent amount of books to fill the entire Grand Canyon by some people's estimates.  That is a whole lot of coded information.  In fact, DNA is the most information dense substance in the entire world, surpassing our feeble information processes by wide margins. No one would believe that the coded information found in Microsoft's Windows 7 would ever call that a random process.  DNA is much more complex than Window's 7. Random processes simply do not result in coded information.

The most complex forms of "information" from a random process are fractals, but they are not coded.  They do not contain elements of language.  Take a look at "The Atheist Riddle" by Perry Marshall:

What do language, linguistics and computer programs tell us about DNA and the origin of life? Do these things have anything to say about the debate between Atheism and intelligent design?

http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/atheists_riddle.htm

His background information is in audio with notes while listening discussing this entire aspect of language in DNA.  He is certainly not the only "authority" on this subject, but he has put together a very interesting talk and information packet on this.  Hope that this is helpful.

http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/ifyoucanreadthis.htm

Peter

[rocker]

Dear Rocker, if you want to start another thread on evolution that is fine,

Thank you.

but why all of the rules and regulations on this thread to limit discussion on is there a God. 

I do not make any rules or regulations here.  I simply find it an interesting topic.  Threads get crowded, with four or five different people responding to different things.  Have you ever been at a party, and a large group gathers for conversation?  And there are four or five topics being discussed loudly, but you find one person's views interesting.  So you step away from the larger group to have a conversation on a topic that interests you.  That doesn't mean your conversation was "off-topic" in the larger group. 

Evolution and the question of is there a God go hand in hand

This certainly seems to be true for you and a few other people.  I don't think the majority of people agree.

 - rocker

[Hemodoc]

   Oh, I know I shouldn't, but I am curious.  Hemodoc, may I ask, why do you think DNA proves the existance of God? I don't mean to start a  just want to know what his views are. So please everyone let's remain calm and civil.  Thank you.

Dear Rob,

For sake of time, here is a one page summary of Perry Marshall's argument.  Perhaps the best place to start.

http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/intelligent_evolution_quick_guide.pdf

Enjoy,

Peter

[fc2821]

   Hemodoc, thank you.  I know I've disagreed with you in the (but not about whether there is a God) but I, personally, feel certain areas of science indicate there is a God. 

[Hemodoc]

Dear Rocker, if you want to start another thread on evolution that is fine,

Thank you.

but why all of the rules and regulations on this thread to limit discussion on is there a God. 

I do not make any rules or regulations here.  I simply find it an interesting topic.  Threads get crowded, with four or five different people responding to different things.  Have you ever been at a party, and a large group gathers for conversation?  And there are four or five topics being discussed loudly, but you find one person's views interesting.  So you step away from the larger group to have a conversation on a topic that interests you.  That doesn't mean your conversation was "off-topic" in the larger group. 

Evolution and the question of is there a God go hand in hand

This certainly seems to be true for you and a few other people.  I don't think the majority of people agree.

 - rocker

Dear Rocker, actually I believe it is not correct to state that the majority of people don't view the issue of evolution and is there a God.  Here in America, most do not accept evolution as fact much to the chagrin of folks that try to speak otherwise.  Here on IHD, those that believe in a God far outweigh those that don't 72% to 24%. 

In the U.S., only 14 percent of adults thought that evolution was "definitely true," while about a third firmly rejected the idea.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/08/060810-evolution.html

I suspect that the vocal minority keeps many of the gentle majority from speaking up on their views.  Not easy to step into the lions den so to speak and present what is displayed in the media as a settled issue, but not in the minds of most Americans who accept the God of the Bible. 

[Hemodoc]

   Hemodoc, thank you.  I know I've disagreed with you in the (but not about whether there is a God) but I, personally, feel certain areas of science indicate there is a God.

You are welcome Rob.  Nothing at all wrong with disagreeing a long as it it done in the right manner.

[fc2821]

   Hemodoc, thank you.  I know I've disagreed with you in the (but not about whether there is a God) but I, personally, feel certain areas of science indicate there is a God.

You are welcome Rob.  Nothing at all wrong with disagreeing a long as it it done in the right manner.

   This is so true.

   Just to express another view on the subject. But I don't believe a belief in God, the God of Jesus particularly, precludes a person to recognise
evolution as one of God's mechanism to run the universe. I know you disagree, you have stated why before. No need to try to convince me I am in error by believing that. I only mention this to bring forth a "third" view on the subject, not fuel further fighting.

[rocker]

But I don't believe a belief in God, the God of Jesus particularly, precludes a person to recognise
evolution as one of God's mechanism to run the universe. I know you disagree, you have stated why before. No need to try to convince me I am in error by believing that. I only mention this to bring forth a "third" view on the subject, not fuel further fighting.

I have said this several times now.  There is no conflict between evolution and a belief in God for most people.

I can only assume that if evolution were ever proven to Peter's "satisfaction", he would immediately lose his belief in God.  I'm not sure why.

Again, anyone serious about discussing the actual topic of evolution is welcome in the thread dedicated to it.

  - rocker

[paris]

Epoman was a great guy. He gave us this site.   Again, I say why not ask those who knew him what he was wanting to know when he started this thread.    He loved good conversation but he would put you in your place in a heartbeat.   His way or the highway.  Loved him.  And I love Him!       
   

[willowtreewren]

Dear Rob,

For sake of time, here is a one page summary of Perry Marshall's argument.  Perhaps the best place to start.

http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/intelligent_evolution_quick_guide.pdf

Enjoy,

Peter

Perry Marshall is an Internet network expert, not a scientist. I would be very surprised if he had a good scientific understanding of DNA and how it works (nor do I). One of the first things he does in his "proof" is set up a false dichotomy between pattern and design, putting DNA under design and postulating that design requires a designer.

He then sets up a false analogy of DNA as a language. For an analysis from a scientific viewpoint (short) visit:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB180.html

In fact, Talk Origins is an interesting site that gives references for the sources of its information.

Aleta

[Hemodoc]

But I don't believe a belief in God, the God of Jesus particularly, precludes a person to recognise
evolution as one of God's mechanism to run the universe. I know you disagree, you have stated why before. No need to try to convince me I am in error by believing that. I only mention this to bring forth a "third" view on the subject, not fuel further fighting.

I have said this several times now.  There is no conflict between evolution and a belief in God for most people.

I can only assume that if evolution were ever proven to Peter's "satisfaction", he would immediately lose his belief in God.  I'm not sure why.

Again, anyone serious about discussing the actual topic of evolution is welcome in the thread dedicated to it.

  - rocker

Dear Rocker, you are quite mistaken.  Perhaps it would be a good rule on this thread if people simply speak for themselves.

[dwcrawford]

That sounds like a really good rule.  Now what was it Epoman  meant to convey?  Oh,  he's not here to speak for himself is he?

Rock on

[petey]

typed something here, but thought it might be offensive...so deleted it....sorry...continue without me

[dwcrawford]

LOOKs like most things posted in here are offensive one way or another.  We all made some adjustment and compromises to keep this site up for our support.  I hope this thread which is apparently in the name of God, doesn't keep going until it brings it to a halt.  Seems there's more than one ego at stake in here and no one is willing to call it a draw and get back to their own passions.

[Hemodoc]

That sounds like a really good rule.  Now what was it Epoman  meant to convey?  Oh,  he's not here to speak for himself is he?

Rock on

Dear Dan, quotations from a prior post are letting Epoman talk again as he has already spoken on the related issues.  That is an accepted method of debate for folks that are no longer alive to comment directly at present, but past comments on related issues are used throughout all academia to support current arguments.  Nothing at all wrong with this, while the other situation is incorrect.  Thank you as always.

[dwcrawford]

Paris my dear, You knew Epoman well.  I wonder if you could speak to his intent in starting this thread?

[Hemodoc]

Paris my dear, You knew Epoman well.  I wonder if you could speak to his intent in starting this thread?

No need Dan, just go read all of his posts at the start of this thread like everyone else.

[Hemodoc]

Dear Rob,

For sake of time, here is a one page summary of Perry Marshall's argument.  Perhaps the best place to start.

http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/intelligent_evolution_quick_guide.pdf

Enjoy,

Peter

Perry Marshall is an Internet network expert, not a scientist. I would be very surprised if he had a good scientific understanding of DNA and how it works (nor do I). One of the first things he does in his "proof" is set up a false dichotomy between pattern and design, putting DNA under design and postulating that design requires a designer.

He then sets up a false analogy of DNA as a language. For an analysis from a scientific viewpoint (short) visit:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB180.html

In fact, Talk Origins is an interesting site that gives references for the sources of its information.

Aleta

Dear Aleta, Perry Marshall is an expert in information systems and he has simply applied the Shannon theory of information to DNA as many others have likewise done.  Darwin was not a scientist, he was a preacher by training with no degrees in science at all.

As far as the talkorigins article, it is a pretty slim post on such a vast and complex issue.  As far as Zipf's law, it has been found in the noncoding regions of DNA.  Take a look at three articles:

Language in junk DNA

So the scientists looked at a very long bit of DNA, and made artificial words by breaking up the DNA into "words" each 3 rungs long. And then they tried it again for "words" 4 rungs long, 5 rungs long, and so on up to 8 rungs long. They then analysed all these words, and to their surprise, they got the same sort of Zipf Law/straight-line-graph for the human DNA (which is mostly introns), as they did for the human languages!
There seems to be some sort of language buried in the so-called junk DNA! Certainly, the next few years will be a very good time to make a career change into the field of genetics.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2001/04/04/133634.htm

Linguistic features of noncoding DNA sequences.

Mantegna RN, Buldyrev SV, Goldberger AL, Havlin S, Peng CK, Simons M, Stanley HE.
Center for Polymer Studies and Department of Physics, Boston University, Massachusetts 02215, USA.
We extend the Zipf approach to analyzing linguistic texts to the statistical study of DNA base pair sequences and find that the noncoding regions are more similar to natural languages than the coding regions. We also adapt the Shannon approach to quantifying the "redundancy" of a linguistic text in terms of a measurable entropy function, and demonstrate that noncoding regions in eukaryotes display a smaller entropy and larger redundancy than coding regions, supporting the possibility that noncoding regions of DNA may carry biological information.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10057305

Hints of a language in junk DNA
F Flam

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/pdf_extract/266/5189/1320

[Hemodoc]

   Hemodoc, thank you.  I know I've disagreed with you in the (but not about whether there is a God) but I, personally, feel certain areas of science indicate there is a God.

You are welcome Rob.  Nothing at all wrong with disagreeing a long as it it done in the right manner.

   This is so true.

   Just to express another view on the subject. But I don't believe a belief in God, the God of Jesus particularly, precludes a person to recognise
evolution as one of God's mechanism to run the universe. I know you disagree, you have stated why before. No need to try to convince me I am in error by believing that. I only mention this to bring forth a "third" view on the subject, not fuel further fighting.

Dear Rob, you sound like me before Christ found me.

[willowtreewren]

Hi, Peter,

I would like to simply concede that we have such different world views that in some ways we are talking past one another. I can understand that it is wearing for others on the list. In deference to them I will cease and desist.

I also have to admit that I just don't really feel like arguing, nor do I have time. I run two businesses, manage my husband's dialysis, and have recently signed a contract with a university to develop four courses for their graduate program in education. I am going to have to turn my attention to other things.

In parting, I want to say that even though I have flaws, I work at improving them because I think that is the right thing to do. I live my life trying to make the world a better place. I hope to leave a legacy of good deeds behind when I am gone, because this life is the only one I have. I don't do so in order to secure a place in heaven.

I love this life with all the joys and sorrows. I am awed by the beauty of nature and the mysteries of the universe.

Cheers.