Is there a GOD? - ding! ding! ding ding geeeeet reaaaaaady toooooo rummmmble!!!!

[willowtreewren]

Rerun, Science is not something that one "believes in" nor is it something for which one has "faith" as many who have faith in god try to say. In fact, it may be a good idea to be clear on what we mean when using the term Science.

Rocker, once again you have posted a clear explanation of the problems with many of these arguments. Thank you for your effort.

[BigSky]

The Bible contains hundreds of specific prophecies telling from the ancient of times what shall come to pass at the end of times.

So does Nostradamus, if you read it with the same "interpretation".

Problem with Nostradamus are none of his are specific.  They are all very abstract.  In fact they read more like riddles than actual prophecies.

Rerun, Science is not something that one "believes in" nor is it something for which one has "faith" as many who have faith in god try to say. In fact, it may be a good idea to be clear on what we mean when using the term Science.

Science once told us that Pluto was a planet.   

[Rerun]

Okay, let's end this thread with a prayer:

Dear Father in heaven, you are the one and only God and we just thank you for your creation and your continued reveling of science where dialysis was discovered so that we can live to discuss your word and works.  Father we just ask your guidance in our conversations and that you would guide those who have read your truth yet do not believe.  Lord we give them to you.  Father for those who are not sure I just ask that they trust you and your word and that they give their lives to you so they are assured a home in eternity.  Lord bless this day for all who read this thread.  And give peace to the situation in Hati.

Amen~   

[fc2821]

   I said I wasn't going to  and I am not, but I do have to make some comments. 

  Hemodoc, I am a Christian (not your kind of Christian it seems) and I beleive in God.  My comments were not an attack on Christianity or beleif in God.  I just don't like being beat over the head with the bible  .   I wanted to point out just as you do about science, that the bible can be interpreted differently and has been through many changes over the centuries.  That the bible does not contain all the writtings of either early Christians or the Jewish religion before Jesus.  That to apreciate the bible and Jesus you need to read some of these other things.  I did not do so to attack you or your beleifs or the bible.  If you thought so, you are mistaken.  I just wanted to present this information to those who do not know it is there. 
   When I refered to "fragle Christians" I was refering to you and rerun, I appologise for being so personal.  But, rerun said that she would loose her faith if at some time we made contact with an alien civilization.  You stated that the bible does not mention life on other words, there for there is no life on others.  How do you both not know that people on other worlds don't beleive in God and that God might not be the same one?  You can't.  Nor should you let such a thing damage your belief.  It is all speculation, and may never happen.  But to falter in your belief.... As I asked rerun, would it negate the techings of Jesus?  Would it?  To me the answer is no.  And, I was saddened to see she would feel this way. 
    You must realise that this thread hs turned into the "argue with hemodoc thread" .  Something I am against.  We should not be arguing with you or anyone.  This should be a palce where we can some state our reasons for beleiving in God or not.  Then others who are in need of comfort may find things to make them think as they ponder how and why they need to struggle against their kidney failure and associated health problems. 
  As has been stated, someone comes here states what they belive and you tell them they are wrong.  Your comments about the Pope and the Catholic faith show that you are not tolerant of other's beliefs.  I do not find the the Catholic faith to appeal to what I believe, but I do not belittle others for beleiving in it.  Then others coem and tell you, you are wrong.  Can't we just say, I don't see it your way but you are intitled to your opinion? 
    Hemodoc, you say that in your 20's you studied science, religon, and did not find the answers you were seeking.  That when you turned to the bible you found God.  I say good!  I am glad. But realise there are others, such as myself who came to God in different ways.  I do not find fault in your way.    I grew up in a Christian home and went to church as a child.  In college I was exposed to other ideas, sicence and religon and began to read on the topics.  My first wife's parents were athiests and were shocked when at age 11 she professed a belief in God because it seems Einstien belived in some sort of God.  All of her life they tried to persude her she was wrong and were upset tht she married someone who blieved in God.  So, I have been exposed to their beliefs.  I  am not new to debating a God and beliefs, nor believing in God. 
     To me there is proof of God in sience.  Hemodoc and  others who are not Christians do not see this.  It is ok.   I  see it in string theory and particle physics.  By the way physics has gone past the "Big Bang" a long time ago.   
     I only ask that we all stop fighting, respect each others views. Quit trying to convince each other we are wrong.  You see we might ALL be wrong, who knows.  It is only what we believe anyway.  We can not prove either way if God exists, if the bible is correct, if you are right and I am wrong or vice versa. 
     That said, I am going back on the side lines. If the past is any indicator, there will be a reply.  I will not be drawn into further argumentation. 
                   

[Rerun]

Okay, let's end this thread with a prayer:

Dear Father in heaven, you are the one and only God and we just thank you for your creation and your continued reveling of science where dialysis was discovered so that we can live to discuss your word and works.  Father we just ask your guidance in our conversations and that you would guide those who have read your truth yet do not believe.  Lord we give them to you.  Father for those who are not sure I just ask that they trust you and your word and that they give their lives to you so they are assured a home in eternity.  Lord bless this day for all who read this thread.  And give peace to the situation in Hati.

Amen~   

[fc2821]

Rerun your prayer was very nice.   

[paul.karen]

  Amen

[YLGuy]

The Nicene Creed is the most widely accepted and used brief statements of the Christian Faith. In liturgical churches, it is said every Sunday as part of the Liturgy. It is Common Ground to East Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Calvinists, and many other Christian groups. Many groups that do not have a tradition of using it in their services nevertheless are committed to the doctrines it teaches.
(Someone may ask, "What about the Apostles' Creed?" Traditionally, in the West, the Apostles' Creed is used at Baptisms, and the Nicene Creed at the Eucharist [AKA the Mass, the Liturgy, the Lord's Supper, or the Holy Communion.] The East uses only the Nicene Creed.)


We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son].
With the Father and the Son
he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.
AMEN.

[willowtreewren]

Okay, let's end this thread with a prayer:

Dear Father in heaven, you are the one and only God and we just thank you for your creation and your continued reveling of science where dialysis was discovered so that we can live to discuss your word and works.  Father we just ask your guidance in our conversations and that you would guide those who have read your truth yet do not believe.  Lord we give them to you.  Father for those who are not sure I just ask that they trust you and your word and that they give their lives to you so they are assured a home in eternity.  Lord bless this day for all who read this thread.  And give peace to the situation in Hati.

Amen~   

The prayer offered by Rerun and the Creed quoted by YLGuy are very different in their intent. Where the Creed is an overarching statement of belief, the prayer beseeches intervention for us "sinners." The Creed doesn't offend me at all. I respect that there are those who hold those beliefs dear and I am thankful to be able to read about them to understand them better.

As a way to illustrate WHY Rerun's prayer is offensive, let me offer this slight rewording of the same prayer:

Okay, let's end this thread with a prayer:

Dear Flying Spaghetti Monster, you are the one and only God and we just thank you for your existence and your continued revealing of science where dialysis was discovered so that we can live to discuss your word and works.  Monster we just ask your guidance in our conversations and that you would guide those who have read your truth yet do not believe in you.  Monster we give them to you.  Monster for those who are not sure, I just ask that they trust you and your word and that they give their lives to you so they are assured a home on Earth free from guilt for believing that there is life on other planets. Monster may your noodly appendage touch all who read this thread.  And give peace to the situation in Haiti.

Please understand that I am NOT trying to offend, just giving as close of an example of the offensiveness so that those who practice this kind of post may better understand those who may think differently. Isn't good communication supposed to be about understanding ?

Aleta (who doesn't consider herself a sinner)

[rocker]

Aleta, I was mulling over the same thoughts when I read that prayer.

"Dear <some other IHD member>, Would you please explain science to Rerun so that she can understand..."

I would like to ask if Rerun would find such a prayer offensive.  I did not find her prayer offensive - but I am used to hearing it.  I was wondering if it would be offensive to people who do not hear such things regularly.  I am curious.

  - rocker

[tyefly]

    Good Point.....Aleta                    

[fc2821]

Aleta   

  Ok, I wasn't ready to end this. Does anyone who comes here know anything about particle physics so we can discus how it might point out tht there is some  (excuse me I hate to use this term it is so fought with meaning) "design" to the way the universe exists?

[fc2821]

For those who know what I am talking about, are you a particle or are you wave?   

[willowtreewren]

Oh Poop, Rob,

Today in science I'm showing my kindergarten and first grade students how light moves in waves, knowing full well that it also acts like particles (but I won't be sharing THAT with them yet!)

I guess I know more about particle physics than I thought!

 

[rocker]

For those who know what I am talking about, are you a particle or are you wave?

That depends...

One slit?  Or two?

Now, where do we go to discuss the anthropic principle....

[fc2821]

Yes, you do Arleta, 

How about this: 

    I believe in the teachings of Jesus, love one another, do not judge others, etc.
    In 1945 the Nag hamadi scrolls were found in the desert in them was a thing now known as the Gospel of thomas.  At the beginning of the document, the writer calls himself Didymus Judas Thomas and this is the source of its name, but most modern scholars do not consider Apostle Thomas its author and the author remains unknown. The document is very different in tone and structure from the four Canonical Gospels, or even other non-canonical gospels. Unlike the Canonical Gospels, it is not a narrative account of the life of Jesus; rather, it consists of sayings, with short dialogues, attributed to Jesus. The document has no reference to the divinity of Jesus, his crucifixion and resurrection or to the final judgment The work comprises 114 of these sayings, some of them composites of multiple sayings. Almost half of these sayings resemble those found in the four canonical Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, while other sayings were not known until its discovery.  The document it believed to have been written between 60 to 140 AD.  Much earlier than the Greek that the King James Version of the bible was translated from, 900 AD.   This is not the bible, but it it brings to us Jesus words, or what are believe to be his words.  Just because it is not in the bible is something we should not read or get to know.  Is this not something that might not bring those who are wondering about the Christian religion another way to become familiar with it?
     
   

[fc2821]

For those who know what I am talking about, are you a particle or are you wave?

That depends...

One slit?  Or two?

Now, where do we go to discuss the anthropic principle....

It also depends upon the observer. 

And for those that don't know what rocker means by the anthropic principle....  :  "The principle was formulated as a response to a series of observations that the laws of nature and its fundamental physical constants remarkably take on values that are consistent with conditions for life as we know it rather than a set of values that would not be consistent with life as observed on Earth. The anthropic principle states that this apparent coincidence is actually a necessity because living observers wouldn't be able to exist, and hence, observe the universe, were these laws and constants not constituted in this way."   
      Do this mean that their might be a creator?   

[tyefly]

I want to be a wave..... not a particle.....please!!          

[Rerun]

Okay, let's end this thread with a prayer:

Dear Father in heaven, you are the one and only God and we just thank you for your creation and your continued reveling of science where dialysis was discovered so that we can live to discuss your word and works.  Father we just ask your guidance in our conversations and that you would guide those who have read your truth yet do not believe.  Lord we give them to you.  Father for those who are not sure I just ask that they trust you and your word and that they give their lives to you so they are assured a home in eternity.  Lord bless this day for all who read this thread.  And give peace to the situation in Hati.

Amen~   

The prayer offered by Rerun and the Creed quoted by YLGuy are very different in their intent. Where the Creed is an overarching statement of belief, the prayer beseeches intervention for us "sinners." The Creed doesn't offend me at all. I respect that there are those who hold those beliefs dear and I am thankful to be able to read about them to understand them better.

As a way to illustrate WHY Rerun's prayer is offensive, let me offer this slight rewording of the same prayer:

Okay, let's end this thread with a prayer:

Dear Flying Spaghetti Monster, you are the one and only God and we just thank you for your existence and your continued revealing of science where dialysis was discovered so that we can live to discuss your word and works.  Monster we just ask your guidance in our conversations and that you would guide those who have read your truth yet do not believe in you.  Monster we give them to you.  Monster for those who are not sure, I just ask that they trust you and your word and that they give their lives to you so they are assured a home on Earth free from guilt for believing that there is life on other planets. Monster may your noodly appendage touch all who read this thread.  And give peace to the situation in Haiti.

Please understand that I am NOT trying to offend, just giving as close of an example of the offensiveness so that those who practice this kind of post may better understand those who may think differently. Isn't good communication supposed to be about understanding ?

Aleta (who doesn't consider herself a sinner)

Yes, I found that very offensive and hurtful, but moreover me.... How did that make God feel.  You are a sinner Alta.

[dwcrawford]

and what a lovely loving sinner you are aleta

dan in d

[Rerun]

I'm not perfect, just forgiven through the blood.

[Rerun]

I want to be a wave..... not a particle.....please!!          

Please make another thread about this.  Thank you~

Rerun, Moderator

[dwcrawford]

and what a lovely imperfect sinner you are rerun

[fc2821]

Rerun, and Jesus said "judge not lest yet be judged."   
 
tyefly,  you can be whatever you want to be. 

[tyefly]

   Rerun.....please dont throw your authority around  and ask me to find another thread to post my answer in.... you your self wrote a prayer......  this thread is not about prayers....either......  so I would say we both need to start another thread........