Is there a GOD? - ding! ding! ding ding geeeeet reaaaaaady toooooo rummmmble!!!!

[willowtreewren]

Hmmm. Rum is the best "poison" for bishop's bread, too! 

[Hemodoc]

I agree, Dan!!  Maybe God would just like for this thread -- and the fruitcakes -- to go away!     sorry!  couldn't help myself!

I am thinking that if there is a god then he/she or it is getting pretty pissed at how some of his so called "chosen ones" are alienating people who could possibly become a convert at some point.  I wonder if god likes fruitcake or if he/she/it would just prefer that this whole thread go away.

Dear Petey, are you calling me a fruitcake and wish I would go away?  Dan, am I alienating you with my comments on how I personally came to know that God is real?  Sorry, this is my personal testimony of why I believe in God and the reasons for that just as Epoman intended when he started this thread.  Sorry that I am such a fruitcake to you folks, but at present I have no plans of going away.  In fact, the more you insult me and ridicule me the more I enjoy this. 

Still waiting for someone to answer the simple question about the crucifixion recorded in the OT hundreds of years before it happened and why and how is it there.  I will remind all that I held my silence on this thread until someone several months ago asserted that the Jews didn't bath.  I reserve the right to follow in the shoes of Epoman who like me was a fruitcake that chose the King James Bible and didn't believe in evolution.  Once again, Epoman would no longer be welcome on this thread that he started on the website he owned and cherished.  I hope you folks realize that and on the legacy that you are now trampling.

So for those that can remain civil and adult in conduct, I for one believe that Epoman did want this to be an active discussion on IHD in an open and respectful manner.  Unfortunately, that is too much to ask of some folks. Goofynia likewise already voiced her decision to keep the thread open before her untimely death. It goes on Petey and Dan.  It goes on.

[Hemodoc]

Ok inspired by thread: http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=620.0 that topic was getting off course, it was about gays and marriage. It turned into a GOD debate. Well lets continue the debate here.

Is there a GOD? I personally believe YES! I can't imagine that with the complexity of the human body especially the brain, and all the feelings we have, that go hand in hand, for example sex, it serves a purpose and it FEELS GOOD!  I just can't imagine that we were an accident, a "Big Bang" happened and a million years later we have Tivo.  There are so many beautiful things in this world that are just too perfect. Some people say we evolved from apes, well they can bite my ass. If apes evolved into man, why are there still apes? Is the bible right I hope so! remember though, it was written by man, and things do get lost in translation. I don't know which religion is correct, there are so many! Catholics believe Christians are going to hell and Christians believe Catholics are going to hell, and everyone thinks buddhists are all going to burn. Who is right? I personally think that as long as you believe in a GOD and live a good life, you will go to heaven when you die, if I didn't believe in GOD and NO forgiveness for the ultimate sin (suicide) I would have offed myself 13 years ago. But I fear GOD and I try to follow his rules as much as possible. Because when I die I want to go to heaven and chill with "THE MAN" and talk about the mysteries of the universe, things like what ever happened to Jimmy Hoffa?

Well that should start things off....

DISCUSS!

[Hemodoc]

By Hyperlite

Maybe it was God that "snapped his fingers" and made the first cell by forcing a few key nutrients to work together in a cycle? I dunno, I wasn't there. But I know that didn't make the world as we know it today, in 7 days...

How do you know it wasn't created in 7 days? (yeah, yeah he rested on the 7th) You may argue,well carbon dating has proven the earth is millions of years old, TRUE, I will buy that however, for all we know 1 day may equal a million or several millions of years in GODS time.

Here is the timelime of creation according to the King James Bible:

1. Light
2. Sky & Ocean
3. Land
4. Sun, moon & stars
5. Birds & Fish
6. land Animals & Man
7. Rest

It states 7 days, However, a day in GODS time could be any amount of years. So that would explain the earth having rocks that are 4.5 Billion years old. And that could also explain the dinosaurs: GOD made the land animals on the 6th day well maybe in GODS time that could explain the dinosaurs were around for millions of years, THEN he man man after they become extinct. I hope you get what I'm trying to say here, I am trying to say that just because the bible says days, it doesn't have to mean 24 hours, it could mean 24+million years.

- Epoman

[Hemodoc]

I was really glad to see this thread.  Yes, I know there is a God and that He revealed Himself in Jesus Christ.  I also know that this life is not all there is and that in this life we need to come to terms with God/Jesus Christ in order to enjoy this life and the other.

[Hemodoc]

Catholics are Christians, they are the original Christian church.  Everything else (every other Christian denomination anyway) has been a spin-off from Catholicism.  Catholics don't think non-Catholics are going to hell.  Actually, they teach that we can't and shouldn't judge who we think is going to hell. 

Okay, I'm a Christian, so therefore I'm a Catholic?  Mormons think they are Christians too, so I guess I'm a Mormon now too. 

Do Catholics read the bible?

Do Catholics read the Bible? - Uh, YEAH!  The Catholic Bible actually has more books than the Protestant Bible b/c when the Reformation and stuff was going on, if a book was not particularly favored by the public, or the leaders didn't want to follow or adhere to that part anymore, they left it out.  At mass, we read part of the Bible every time.  It's a 3 yr cycle, so at the end of 3 yrs, we will have read the whole Bible except for a few small parts.

Christian = Catholic? - Well Catholics are Christian.  Protestants don't believe everything the CC teaches so no, they are not Catholics.  And I don't THINK I am a Christian - I KNOW I am. 

Wait, so your saying your a Christian Catholic? I was raised in Christian school and I have never heard of Christian Catholics. But I guess hyperlite in his last post summed it up best. I by the way am Protestant and I only read the King James Version. I personally hate all these new wave bibles that make it easier for the reader to understand, The Psalms just don't sound as beautiful in those new bibles.

- Epoman

[rocker]

Still waiting for someone to answer the simple question about the crucifixion recorded in the OT hundreds of years before it happened and why and how is it there.

I gave you a perfectly rational explanation for that.

[Hemodoc]

I have been hesitating getting involved in this exchange.  What I do know is that there is too much in this that is from tradition and not from the Bible.  God left us the Bible - there is no need for man to add other things.  Where will the adding end?
Jesus Himself stopped the crowd from giving His mother special honour.  What is our justification for doing that?
Jesus told the Pharisees "You teach for commandments of God the traditions of man" and I see too much of that.

[Hemodoc]

I don't need arguements for and against God to persuade me one way or another, all I do is open my eyes each day and God reveals himself.

Nothing so complex as life on earth can possible happen by chance

VERY WELL SAID! 

- Epoman

Just FYI on where this thread started.  I went back and read all of Epoman's comments a few days ago.  I must confess that once I read his posts, I did feel an obligation to present the same view points as he did may his soul rest in peace.

I do agree with all of you folks on one thing.  Perhaps it is time for this thread to end since it is quite off topic and is now becoming an insult to the memory of Epoman and what he believed himself.  I am pretty certain that Epoman would not be pleased nor would he be silent.  I will follow in his example.  Thank you.

Hemodoc

[petey]

Hemodoc--
There were two people (Dan and I) and one "possible" entity (God) mentioned in my fruitcake comment.  What makes you think I was calling you a fruitcake?  Touchy, aren't we?  Oh, well, you know what they say about the shoe fitting...

...and, yes, it goes on.

[dwcrawford]

Petey just let is go.  Some people's egos are so big they believe everything is about them.  And you know what can happen to people like you and me if we talk to people that way.  I'm trying to find out if there is a way to stop certain threads that you've posted on from coming up each time sone posts on it.  I know about the "mark as read" option but I just don't want to see it at all.
Who said "Let it be..."?

[paris]

Three and a half years later, Epoman's question still has members posting.   He would have loved that!    Before we go even more off topic, let's move back to the question.  We all have our own beliefs and we are not her to try to change anyone in what they feel is the truth.  None of us will know until the day we die who is right and who is wrong. In the meantime, the 10 commandments are pretty good everyday rules -- no matter who wrote them or where they are recorded. So, I will try not to kill anyone!      And I will try to live the best life I possibly can.  I enjoy reading everyone's views and respect the path they have chosen. 

[Hemodoc]

I wasn't calling anybody a fruitcake Petey.  It was just an observation as most people don't like fruitcake.  Been on my mind why there are so many if no one likes them.  Just a couple of unrelated random thoughts.

I didn't mean to incriminate you, Dan!  NOTE TO ALL :  Petey was the one calling others fruitcakes. Dan, for once, is totally innocent!     

Hemodoc--
There were two people (Dan and I) and one "possible" entity (God) mentioned in my fruitcake comment.  What makes you think I was calling you a fruitcake?  Touchy, aren't we?  Oh, well, you know what they say about the shoe fitting...

...and, yes, it goes on.

Dear Petey, since by your last comment, I was not the object of the fruitcake reference, please tell us who you were referring to as a fruitcake. 

Thank you.

[paris]

Let's stay on topic.   One of Epoman's rules that helps keep order here.

[Rerun]

Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding.... Tally

Is there a GOD Yes, Of course. Duh!                                    71 (61.7%)
Nope, when you're dead, you're dead.                                20 (17.4%)
Not sure, with all the suffering in the world.                          9 (7.8%)
Yes of course and dialysis is HELL and we are already dead.     4 (3.5%)
Undecided.                                                                     11 (9.6%)
 Edit Poll
 
Total Members Voted: 115

[dwcrawford]

Most of us agree with you Paris.  How many times have people said "i believed this but...

And now it has come to light exactly what Epoman meant in the post?  I find that prophetic....

So many people have been attacked and insulted just because they dared to present a view contrary to the main theme here.  And it seems people really wanted it to go off topic rather than be continually exposed to the insults.  That's my opinion... not everyones.  Unfortunately I can't use my old wit and sarcasm else it'd have been over long ago.

Nice poll results.  Is it broken down by Christians and Catholic Christians and Jews?

[petey]

Petey just let is go.  Some people's egos are so big they believe everything is about them.  And you know what can happen to people like you and me if we talk to people that way.  I'm trying to find out if there is a way to stop certain threads that you've posted on from coming up each time sone posts on it.  I know about the "mark as read" option but I just don't want to see it at all.
Who said "Let it be..."?

Okay, Dan, I bow to your expertise in matters like this.  I will let it go and stop egging it on.  That got me in trouble one time; it looks like I would have learned my lesson.  One last question...anybody know how I go about converting from a Christian to a Catholic Jew?

[dwcrawford]

Earlier in the day I was on facebook asking about who liked fruitcake and why there are so many when so few people like them.  The fruitcake reference was just another remark to try and bring the thread bad to some civility.  Much like my "Shut UP Dan" post earlier which was intend to lighten the discussion and instead, was taken so wrong by so many people.  I erased the contents of it you know.

[rocker]

  One last question...anybody know how I go about converting from a Christian to a Catholic Jew?

I think you start by getting circu.....

Wait, never mind.

[petey]

  One last question...anybody know how I go about converting from a Christian to a Catholic Jew?

I think you start by getting circu.....

Wait, never mind.

rocker --

Muuhaahaaa !!                      

[okarol]

Anyone who discusses religion is opening themselves, as Jesus did, to persecution for their beliefs.
Even followers of Jesus, during his lifetime, argued over what he meant.
And atheists have passionate beliefs of their own - and are every bit as faithful to their point of view as are religious people.

Snide comments and innuendo and personal attacks are not acceptable.

Stay on topic or earn a mini-vacation. As Epoman stated in the rules:

At anytime a member can be banned at the Admin teams sole discretion. Just as a store "Reserves the right to refuse service to anyone" So can the admin team of IHD. Normally a member is not banned unless he or she is breaking a rule, however at times if the admin team feels a member is causing trouble, the admin (any member of) team reserves the right to ban that member. If that member is a Premium Member the member will receive a pro rated refund of the membership fee for every unused month of premium membership.



okarol/admin

[RichardMEL]

A couple of thoughts because a few things have happened in this thread since I last visited.

First of all, about war and religion: I agree very much with the assertion that it is not religion per se that is the cause of wars,but the extremist elements supporting a particular viewpoint that (in general) have started some wars in the name of their religion where more moderate elements would probably not agree in the main.

Second of all: I'm sorry for offending Mimi. I simply was responding with my thoughts to where the thread was going as I saw it.

One thing I didn't write in my original post about religion/faith is that for all the problems I see with organised religion and the like I wanted to make it clear that I feel individuals can show and practice their faith in very positive ways. I have also noted many times, specially with folks on dialysis and other severe conditions, that having faith in something(whatever that may be) often helps people cope with stressful and overwhealming situations and often the support of religious groups can be very helpful.

Do *I* think there is a God? No, not really. Beings in this universe more powerful/superior than us? I have no doubt of that. It would be the height of arrogance and stupidity to presume we were the be all and end all out there. It is generally suggested that the Christian God is all powerful, all loving, etc... yet there is so much suffering in this world. Hemadoc counters with the comment that most of the misery is created by man, and thus it's not God's doing or fault... I will grant that many things are man's doing: war, and resultant privations on innocent people, poverty caused by imbalances in wealth between countries etc.. yes Disease due to poor health care and the like yes. However... what about something like kidney disease? It's not man made(as far as we know) and to a lot of us it's just happened with little rhyme or reason. Same with a lot of cancers and other things. Would a merciful God really allow that stuff to happen to innocent people? Or should I take it that if I have gotten this disease this means I have somehow done something to upset God (perhaps because I don't believe in Him? yet many devout believers also face horrible diseases and other challenges). Somehow I just can't accept the concept... because if He does exist than He certainly has a fully hands off policy!

I don't mean to offend anyone with my thoughts. It is just one opinion and just as valid as anyone else.

[Hemodoc]

RichardMEL, great post, thank you for a breath of fresh air to be able to agree to disagree in a thoughtful manner.

As a born again Christian, I don't like at all many of things I have been dealt in my life, most especially my kidney disease. I am grateful to no end for dialysis, but I truly do not like it one bit as I am sure all can attest who live by it.  Even with dialysis 5 days a week, I don't in any sense feel "normal" whatever that may mean.  I don't necessarily believe that sickness and illness is at the hand of the errors and sins I have committed through my life, but I would reserve the possibility that I could learn from it anyway. If I was to accuse God of the pain and suffering that I have gone through, then what of the pain and suffering of Jesus on the cross to pay for my sins according to Christian doctrine?  According to the Bible He was free of sin and the only truly innocent man to ever walk the face of this earth.  A difficult verse to comprehend goes right back to those that I have focussed on the last few days found in Isaiah 53:

Isaiah 53:
    1: Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2: For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3: He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4: Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5: But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6: All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7: He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8: He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9: And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10: Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11: He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12: Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

How can it be that God the Father was pleased to bruise him and put him to grief?  My own pains and sufferings are nothing compared to that which Jesus suffered.  Perhaps I question and am not happy with my own physical maladies and don['t understand "why me?"  Yet, the times I look upon the suffering of Jesus who is the only man without sin, I know the purpose that God intended for His own Son.  Because I do not understand my own suffering or that of others does not preclude the possibility that there is also a purpose by God for that as well.

Difficult subject with little answers for all of us.  Once again, I cannot scientifically prove every part of the Bible, but there are many parts that cannot be by chance alone which gives me faith in those parts that can only be accepted by faith.  The story of the cross and the suffering of Jesus that we see written by Isaiah 700 years before he died on the cross is something that I can focus on and see God's purpose.  When I shine the light on my own suffering, I am still waiting for many answers.  From a Christian perspective, I trust that God shall reveal all to me at a later time, whether here on earth or in heaven.  From a Bible perspective, it is God's purpose to return and restore that which was first given in His creation and much much more.  All I can say is that the answer to the verses above about are found in John 3:16.  It is either true or it is not.

[Stoday]

I’m sure that no god exists. That view is reinforced daily by what I read and see.
It’s reinforced by the Bible. As an example, the first chapter, to which Epoman refers, is contradicted by the second. How can such a faulty text be inspired by God?

Here is the timelime of creation according to the King James Bible:
1. Light
2. Sky & Ocean
3. Land
4. Sun, moon & stars
5. Birds & Fish
6. land Animals & Man
7. Rest

The second version (Ge 2:5) creates plants then man then animals then woman.

The bible is pretty hopeless at prophecies unless they have already occurred. Just like Nostradamus and Cassandra, the prophecies are only seen to have occurred after the event. Where the event has not yet occurred, they get it wrong. Jehovah's Witnesses go to a lot of effort to predict the second coming from biblical texts, but get it wrong again and again.

Christians claim that their god is a loving etc. God. That’s contradicted by the Bible. For example, in Genesis 17:10 he advocates the sexual mutilation of male babies.

The Christian and Muslim God are one and the same. I fancy the terrorists who were flying the planes on 9/11 were praying hard for the success of their mission. It’s hard to believe that He supported them.

[Hemodoc]

Dear Stoday, It is kind of unfair that you are criticizing a position that Epoman can't defend since he is no longer here, but it is a valid question.  I posted his posts to show where this thread started and the intentions that are evident by Epoman's comments but I am sure he would have wanted to defend his own statements which obviously he can't.

As far as the creation story in chapter one vs chapter two of Genesis, many have wrongly asserted that they are contradictory stories when in fact, chapter two takes place in the Garden of Eden on day six and it is God showing directly to Adam where all creatures came from by bringing them forth before his eyes.  So, it is not two contradictory stories at all.  Einstein taught us that the frame of reference is all important in understanding complex issues.  In this case, chapter two of Genesis is from the frame of reference of the garden of Eden with Adam in it and talking with God who is showing Adam that He is his creator as well as the creator of the world.

As far as stating that the God of the Bible and the God of Islam are the same, we turn to what their two books say.  In the Old Testament, God's name was I Am which Jesus likewise confirmed as well as one of his other names being Jehovah.  However, the Koran refers to Allah and does not ever refer to him as Jehovah.  Following suit, I would conclude that they are not the same God.  Perhaps you can discuss with a Muslim believer whether Allah is Jehovah.  It is my impression that they will tell you no, but if someone wishes to differ and correct that assertion  I would be interested in hearing their perspective.

Further, the issue of circumcision is felt by many to be a very humane hygiene issue.  In a spiritual sense, there is much there, but I will stick to the limited topic of this thread and just state it would be worthwhile for you to look into this issue further than thinking of it as sexual mutilation when in fact most men that are circumcised have no sexual dysfunction at all. It is actually a quite interesting topic beyond the scope of this limited discussion.

Lastly, how can a prophecy be fulfilled until it is fulfilled?  There are hundreds of prophecies on the first coming of Jesus that are written from the ancient of times and fulfilled when He came.  I have faith that those remaining to be fulfilled since the others were fulfilled.  It is  a very broad subject beyond that of this thread and that is why I have focussed on that of the cross alone.

If you wish to start another off topic thread on Bible prophecy, and your evidence that it is false, I would be more than happy to take up your criticisms on another thread.  So, if Bible prophecy is false, and we are talking about the crucifixion in the limited nature of is there a God, what evidence do you have that either the prophecies are false or that the crucifixion is false as you are indirectly implying.  I would be interested in hearing your views on this.

God bless,

Hemodoc