Is there a GOD? - ding! ding! ding ding geeeeet reaaaaaady toooooo rummmmble!!!!

[del]

I suppose I would call myself half agnostic/half atheist, and I quite agree with Rocker's last statement:

I cannot possibly know if there is a "higher power" in the universe.  But I am quite certain that if there is, no human religion has gotten it right.

I have no proof one way or the other that there's a higher being, or beings (for our Hindu friends), be it God(s), superpowered aliens, or whatever. By the same token, there's no proof that there isn't a God(s) out there. If proof arrives then I'm more than happy to
submit, though submit is the wrong word, because I believe strongly in freedom of thought and belief, and I wouldn't want to exactly be told to think a particular way, but I certainly would be more open to subscribing to a particular faith if some proof existed. And by proof I do not mean the bible, or the Koran or some other holy book written by men. I suppose I mean the second coming, or whathave you.

My bigger issue is more to do with organised religion of ANY kind. To me it seems that half the time organised churches, in the way they preach their beliefs tend to undermine the principles their religions stand for. For example, how many wars have been waged in the name of religion - yet most religions that I know of claim to preach tolerance of others, "love thy neighbor" and variations thereof... I also dislike having some person, or organisation, telling me that I *should* think a certain way, and if I don't that somehow I'm a bad person for it. This isn't just about relgiion - it's a general issue.. be about smoking, or drugs, or sex, or whatever... I don't want someone else pushing their views in my face and making out that if I think differently (ie: for myself) that I'm a bad person, or somehow missing out. Sure, I'm not perfect and I am sure many of my ideas and personal beliefs aren't ideal, but they're *mine*

By the same token I am not going to tell any other person here, or anywhere else, that what they believe is wrong, or bad - that would be exactly the thing I loathe. I personally don't agree with any kind of fundamentalist belief (ie: taken to extremes) but I will support someone's right to believe in it.

The only time I will say something or direct my opinion is if belief or ideas or whatever are being pushed on someone else without their consent.

I don't care what adults do and believe if it's not hurting anyone but if people are being hurt, or dragged around or kept against their will, or subjugated in some way then I do not like that.. but that is a general principle. Note that I see this as being different from some religions (eg: Islam) where women cover up and have an (apparently) servile role in that culture - in general, from what I have seen, a lot of Islamic women are more than content/happy with their lives and beliefs and I have no issue with that.

I guess in a nutshell my feelings on religion, in general are, that I am not a believer myself but I support anyone's right to believe whatever they like as long as it doesn't hurt others. As I said above I believe a lot of the organised churches have that idea kind of botched in one way or another, and of course extreemist elements(of any religion) take things over the top and skew things to support their particular viewpoint which may bear little in common with the mainstream of their particular religion.. and of course we have seen the end result of the most extreme of fundamentalist viewpoints (ie: terrorism-usually against innocents, some of the same religion!)

I am sure I will get flamed for this post, but it's just how I feel. Like I said I have no problem with anything anyone else believes and quite happy to hear about it even if I personally disagree... that's what makes the world go around.

Good post Richard.  I think that is how a lot of people feel. I for one do not want anything pushed on me. I am an adult and quite capable of thinking for myself.  I will however always respect other people's beliefs and opinions - not saying I will agree with them.  But hey the world would be a very boring place if we all had the same opinions!!

[Hanify]

I think blaming war on religion is a bit like blaming soccer hooliganism on soccer.  It's not the game itself that is bad - it's that some people who follow it do odd things.

[Mimi]

You, RichardMel, Rocker, and Del are off topic.  'The question is: Is there a God.'  The topic is not about religion, it is about God.

Sorry folks.

Mimi

[fc2821]

I think blaming war on religion is a bit like blaming soccer hooliganism on soccer.  It's not the game itself that is bad - it's that some people who follow it do odd things.

Hanfy, you have stated my point exactly.  It is not religon that is bad, but the way some people pratice it, use it, beleive in it.  This applies to all religons and not just one or part of one. 

[del]

Mimi, the question was is there a God?  Isn't God part of religion. If not our religion programs in schools are all fooled up. I teach morals, about God(Christianity) and about other religions in my Grade 2 religion program. Gives the students a broad view of the world.  We are all entitled to express our views and our reasons for believing or not believing or having questions.  I am enjoying the discussion and seeing every ones views and reasons for those views.

[del]

I think blaming war on religion is a bit like blaming soccer hooliganism on soccer.  It's not the game itself that is bad - it's that some people who follow it do odd things.

Hanfy, you have stated my point exactly.  It is not religon that is bad, but the way some people pratice it, use it, beleive in it.  This applies to all religons and not just one or part of one.

So true!!

[rocker]

You, RichardMel, Rocker, and Del are off topic.  'The question is: Is there a God.'  The topic is not about religion, it is about God.

Sorry folks.

Mimi

True, any comprehensive discussion of the topic would first begin with the rejoinder "Define 'God'."

But that would just be argumentative.  There is a common understanding of what "God" means, and there is a common understanding that most religion involves the worship of God or Gods.

As I said, no one can possibly know all that the universe contains (though some people seem quite convinced they do).  But I am quite certain that if there is some sort of higher power, higher intelligence, whatever - no human has ever come close to describing <him/her/it/them>.

So to use the common understanding of "God" - no, I don't believe such a being exists.

[BigSky]

I For example, how many wars have been waged in the name of religion - yet most religions that I know of claim to preach tolerance of others, "love thy neighbor" and variations thereof...

How many wars have been waged that were not in the name of religion?

Probably as many as were in the name of various religions. It doesn't make it any more correct, whatever the excuse.  Though there are times when doing the right thing involves making violent choices.  This is unforunately how things are.

Which leads me to ask, what do you think Jesus would have said of all the killing in his name?  And, before you get your undies in an uproar, I am a Christan.  I am not criticizing Christianity, just asking people to stop and think for a minute. 

Yes, I said I was a Christan, and my eariler posts here were misinterpreted by some to believe I am not.  I am not asking this question to get people upset, or to argue.

I posted the question in return because the whole idea is false logic.   

If a Obama supporter goes out and beats a homeless person in the name of Obama, does that put Obama in a bad light?   No.  Yet because wars were fought in the name of religion its tried to be played off as something negative against religion.

Just as many wars and more likely more have been killed by war that had nothing to do with religion.

[cassandra]

Well I don't believe there is a God. And if there is a God than what's the point of 'creating' so much pain and misery. When you create something you take care of it.

[Hemodoc]

Dear cassandra, the cross is God taking care of the misery that MAN created.  It was not God that brought evil into the world, it was man.  When Jesus died on the cross, he overcame this evil and opened the way for all men to have fellowship with God again when he paid the penalty for all mankind. He created us in His image to fellowship with us. The gift of the cross is offered to everyman everywhere to give that fellowship back.

Once again, how do you explain the story of the crucifixion in the OT hundreds of years before it occurred.  Trickery? Forgery? Coincidence? Chance?  Contrivance? Or instead, is it a message from God who created us in His image?  My answer to these questions when I pondered this evidence myself was, wow, this is the true, literal word of God and Jesus is who He said He is.  Not many have ever agreed with that assessment who have lived, yet the simple fact remains that these writings do exist. The Bible states that the purpose that it was written is so that we can believe.  Josh McDowell says that it is evidence that demands a verdict.  I agree.  I did look, I did conclude and God introduced Himself to me through that process. 

Romans 10:11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14: How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15: And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

All of Christian theology turns on the cross.  We all know John 3:16 from football games with the sign hung at the end zone.  However, few know that the context of John 3:16 is found in John 3:14, the story of the cross again.

John 3:14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20: For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21: But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

So we need look no further than our own mirror for the misery and pain you falsely attribute to God, and the cross is the answer on how He did and has taken care of it.  This thread is titled, Is there a God?  My answer is emphatically yes in part because of the written record of Jesus Christ of Nazareth in the OT contained in the story of the cross and hundreds of other prophecies.  This is why I believe in God, specifically the God of the Bible and why I believe that the Bible is the true, literal word of God.  That is His story, and that is my story of how I found God through searching His word.

Once again, this thread is titled, Is there a God? My answer is yes, and this is how I found Him.

[cassandra]

dear hemodoc I am pleased for you that you have found Him, and that the cross is taking care of all the misery and pain in the world caused by man. But man was created in Gods image, wasn't it?

[Hemodoc]

Dear Cassandra, once again, just giving the Bible perspective on the issue you brought up.  If you are implying that it is still God that has caused the pain and misery since He made man, that is not the Bible perspective.

Example, if your father gave you a brand new Mercedes free and clear and you take it and smash it into a tree.  Was that your father's fault?  The answer is no.  He gave you the car in good condition and it was your actions that ruined the car, not the one that gave you the car.

The Bible tells us that God's creation was good and that God then gave dominion of the earth over to man.  In other words, He put man in charge of a perfect creation.  Through free will and sin, man brought upon the earth and all creation the pain and misery you are speaking of.  This is the Bible view.  I can't in any scientific manner confirm that aspect of the creation story, yet through the other parts of the Bible that I can evaluate and find true, I trust by faith that the other parts are true as well that I can't prove in a logical or scientific deduction.

The ruined car is fixed by the cross so to speak.  That is the Christian perspective.  Having the story of the crucifixion told hundreds of years before it happened is something to wonder on how it could be there.  Coincidence? Fraud? Conjecture? Or a message from God to man?  From my many years of study, I go with the latter.  Take a look for yourself and search out His word.  When I was about 20 or so, I was running in the corn fields of Pennsylvania and I believe it was something that I heard from a Billy Graham crusade that came to mind at the time.  (It used to be that Billy Graham was on national TV in prime time many years ago.  He is no longer welcome today during that time, but it was different in the old days when I grew up)  I remember him saying, if you ask God to show Himself to you, He will.

So in the middle of the cornfields, I asked a simple question:  Jesus if you are real, show yourself to me.  Well about 16 years later, in His own timing and manner, He literally did what I asked of Him all those years before and showed Himself to me in an unmistakable manner.  That is my story and part of my quest on how I answered the very questions you are now asking.  So, even if you do or do not like the answer I have found myself, that is perhaps not as important as considering whether where I found the answer is the place that you likewise one day might find the answer for yourself.  Consider it and why not challenge Jesus to do what I challenged Him to do for me all those years ago.  It is actually a promise of the Bible that if you look for Him, He will find you.

Once again, just giving my own personal story of how I answered this question for myself, Is there a God? My answer remains absolutely yes without any doubt whatsoever.  just my perspective.

[dwcrawford]

I am thinking that if there is a god then he/she or it is getting pretty pissed at how some of his so called "chosen ones" are alienating people who could possibly become a convert at some point.  I wonder if god likes fruitcake or if he/she/it would just prefer that this whole thread go away. 

[Hanify]

Ditto

[petey]

I agree, Dan!!  Maybe God would just like for this thread -- and the fruitcakes -- to go away!     sorry!  couldn't help myself!

[dwcrawford]

I wasn't calling anybody a fruitcake Petey.  It was just an observation as most people don't like fruitcake.  Been on my mind why there are so many if no one likes them.  Just a couple of unrelated random thoughts.

[kitkatz]

My beliefs are my own and I do not proscribe to any religion anymore.  I know there is a God. I also know there was a plan for my life before I got here and  planned it out myself.  God did not do it for me,I was allowed to decide my life lessons in this life.  Hoo boy did  I ever make it a busy lesson learning time!

[petey]

I wasn't calling anybody a fruitcake Petey.  It was just an observation as most people don't like fruitcake.  Been on my mind why there are so many if no one likes them.  Just a couple of unrelated random thoughts.

I didn't mean to incriminate you, Dan!  NOTE TO ALL :  Petey was the one calling others fruitcakes.  Dan, for once, is totally innocent!     

[Hanify]

 

[del]

I love fruitcake.    But that's off topic again!!

[willowtreewren]

I'm lukewarm about fruit cake, but I love bishop's bread. Whoops!

 

[dwcrawford]

I didn't say I don't like fruitcake.  I said most people don't.  Or at least they say they don't.  I think maybe i like this thread better off topic than on.  Who soaks their fruitcake with brandy?

[Hanify]

And my dietician told me if I have a peice of fruitcake it has to be really small, and then don't eat any fruit the reest of the day ... boy, it would have to be a mighty fine fruitcake...

[rocker]

I didn't say I don't like fruitcake.  I said most people don't.  Or at least they say they don't.  I think maybe i like this thread better off topic than on.  Who soaks their fruitcake with brandy?

Heretic!

The only True soak for fruitcake is rum!  Dark rum!

[del]

Yeah rum is the best for fruitcake.  I put it in mine and also wrap it in cheesecloth soaked in rum!!  Yum.  Hubby can eat it now that he does nocturnal.