Is there a GOD? - ding! ding! ding ding geeeeet reaaaaaady toooooo rummmmble!!!!

[monrein]

I would respectfully wonder how it came to pass that this thread has turned into a debate about the "truth" of a conservative, bible-based, young earth creationism view of Christianity?  There are folks, like Peter, who have found personal salvation and a cast-in-concrete certitude that this is the ONLY way to avoid landing in "hell" and that this is the ONLY possible interpretation of the message of Christ as expressed through words translated from an ancient language that was not English.  That is indeed an opinion, based on personal reading and understanding of the Bible, and I'd like to point out that there exist many many people who also call themselves Christians who have arrived at different conclusions about the very same words, sentences and books of the Bible.  Biblical scholars have been debating this topic and its details for centuries.  We shan't settle it here.  I'm most interested in how those who have a faith, came to it, in how it might have provided support or comfort, has it ever been shaken or disappeared altogether et cetera.   I understand Peter's point of view,  I have a good feel for the passion he brings to his "rebirth", I have read his extensive quotes,  and I've read the Bible and I still feel that there is worthiness in the points of view and interpretations of others.  In short, I'm interested less in dogma and more in beliefs.
 If I were a Muslim, a devout Muslim, as Peter is a devout conservative, bible-based, young earth creationist, why would I ever share my thoughts, feelings and indeed faith in my beliefs only to be told that I am wrong, that I'm making the wrong choice and that I will pay dearly for this once I die.  Sharing, especially about something as personal to people as their religious views, is about attempting to understand one another not about thumping anything at all, in my view, not Bibles, not Qu'rans, not other texts that some hold sacred and certainly not each others ways of believing. 
I am a gardener.  I am a passionate gardener and I often speak with others about all that I receive from this hobby.  My life would be poorer without my interest in the plant world but many people find me a bit nuts to have this visceral need to dig in dirt.  I don't need to convince them to start gardening...they might want me to dig their first flowerbed.  It is enough to simply speak my truth about how gardening connects me to my past, anchors my present and lures me towards the next season.  Please don't misunderstand...I don't worship nature...I feel no need to say "what", "who" or indeed even "if" I worship at all.  I can and will say however that I am not aware of ever having persecuted anyone for their personal beliefs in the matter of religion because I don't feel that I KNOW the truth...not even close.  While I'm delighted that Peter has found his certitude in a conservative, bible-based, young earth creationist interpretation of Christianity and would like to steer all and sundry towards the comfort that certainty can offer, I am personally comfortable with my own fluctuating doubt and little flickers of clarity about things.  I value an open mind and certainty can close it, which is fine for some but unsettling for others such as myself.
I would love to hear opinions about God from those of faiths other than Christian but were I such a person I would keep quiet also because sharing my beliefs only to be told that I've got it wrong just doesn't feel right. 

[Hemodoc]

I would respectfully wonder how it came to pass that this thread has turned into a debate about the "truth" of a conservative, bible-based, young earth creationism view of Christianity?  There are folks, like Peter, who have found personal salvation and a cast-in-concrete certitude that this is the ONLY way to avoid landing in "hell" and that this is the ONLY possible interpretation of the message of Christ as expressed through words translated from an ancient language that was not English.  That is indeed an opinion, based on personal reading and understanding of the Bible, and I'd like to point out that there exist many many people who also call themselves Christians who have arrived at different conclusions about the very same words, sentences and books of the Bible.  Biblical scholars have been debating this topic and its details for centuries.  We shan't settle it here.  I'm most interested in how those who have a faith, came to it, in how it might have provided support or comfort, has it ever been shaken or disappeared altogether et cetera.   I understand Peter's point of view,  I have a good feel for the passion he brings to his "rebirth", I have read his extensive quotes,  and I've read the Bible and I still feel that there is worthiness in the points of view and interpretations of others.  In short, I'm interested less in dogma and more in beliefs.
 If I were a Muslim, a devout Muslim, as Peter is a devout conservative, bible-based, young earth creationist, why would I ever share my thoughts, feelings and indeed faith in my beliefs only to be told that I am wrong, that I'm making the wrong choice and that I will pay dearly for this once I die.  Sharing, especially about something as personal to people as their religious views, is about attempting to understand one another not about thumping anything at all, in my view, not Bibles, not Qu'rans, not other texts that some hold sacred and certainly not each others ways of believing. 
I am a gardener.  I am a passionate gardener and I often speak with others about all that I receive from this hobby.  My life would be poorer without my interest in the plant world but many people find me a bit nuts to have this visceral need to dig in dirt.  I don't need to convince them to start gardening...they might want me to dig their first flowerbed.  It is enough to simply speak my truth about how gardening connects me to my past, anchors my present and lures me towards the next season.  Please don't misunderstand...I don't worship nature...I feel no need to say "what", "who" or indeed even "if" I worship at all.  I can and will say however that I am not aware of ever having persecuted anyone for their personal beliefs in the matter of religion because I don't feel that I KNOW the truth...not even close.  While I'm delighted that Peter has found his certitude in a conservative, bible-based, young earth creationist interpretation of Christianity and would like to steer all and sundry towards the comfort that certainty can offer, I am personally comfortable with my own fluctuating doubt and little flickers of clarity about things.  I value an open mind and certainty can close it, which is fine for some but unsettling for others such as myself.
I would love to hear opinions about God from those of faiths other than Christian but were I such a person I would keep quiet also because sharing my beliefs only to be told that I've got it wrong just doesn't feel right.

Great post Monrein.  I agree with all of your points and would greatly enjoy people defending their beliefs on why they do or do not believe in God.  Unfortunately, there is a small cabal of folks here that would rather mock and insult that gets in the way of that.  In a debate or discussion, it is customary to place reasons for the side of the discussion that people are supporting.  Clearing up incorrect assessments of my faith is one of the main issues that I have engaged in showing just what the Bible does or does not say.  I agree, I would love to hear other opinions as well if done in a respectful manner including and most especially one of the largest held views of Americans who support the biblical view of the world. 

Thank you for your post.

Peter

[paris]

Along with Rerun, I ask we keep on topic.  There are many things being said on all sides that are pushing the line.  Moderators are here to help keep order.     I see many saying they can accept what another believes, but it isn't what they believe. Good     I admire anyone who is secure in their faith or beliefs.  I know what I think is right (for me) and have very comfortable with that my entire life.   I want to know how others make their path.   So, I applaud anyone for standing up for their beliefs but  we also need to let others stand for what they believe.    I have been relaying all this to my husband - a devout Christian and conservative - and his response was "well, I certainly hope I got it right - but I know God loves me even if I didn't".    I think the quotes and deep thinking is pushing more and more from this thread and that is a shame.  If you want others to hear "The Word" you have to give them space and room to listen. 

Please try to be kind to one another.  God (and the mods) would really appreciate it.

[rocker]

The Bible and the value of PI

Written by: Kent Hovind

The diameter of 10 cubits is from outer rim to outer rim, the way anyone would measure a circular object. The circumference of 30 cubits, however, was of the inner circle, after subtracting the thickness of the brass (two handbreadths-one for each side) from which the bowl was made.

Sure, I have no problem discussing this with Mr Hovind.

I Kings 7:23 He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it. (New International Version)

 23And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about. (King James Version)

The KJV text does seem to be quite specific that the writer is giving the outside dimension of the bowl.  Further, it makes sense - the dimension was measured with a rope.  It would be quite difficult to get an accurate inside dimension with a rope.  It would need to be held up against the rim by a number of people, and each person would add some slack while trying to hold the rope tightly.  No, it makes more sense that they were simply somewhat sloppy in measurement.

This would be the number needed to calculate the volume of water.

This number would only lead to an accurate volumetric calculation if the sides of the vessel were perfectly vertical, and the bottom perfectly level.  The vessel is repeatedly described as "a bowl", which we assume means "bowl-shaped".  The top inside dimension is of little help when calculating the volume of a bowl.

Option #2

The writer seemed quite certain with Option 1, why does he need an option 2?

In addition, since you are very interested in presenting the credentials of scientists you quote, repeatedly posting the credentials of Sir Fred Hoyle, here are some of Kent Hovind's credentials:

"Since November 2006 Hovind has been serving a ten-year prison sentence in the Federal Correctional Institution, Edgefield in Edgefield, South Carolina, after being convicted of 58 federal counts, including twelve tax offenses, one count of obstructing federal agents and forty-five counts of structuring cash transactions."

[Hemodoc]

Is there a god?  We've heard your answer loud and clear.  Others have other opinions, some as well reasoned as yours and some not.

One question:  If Science proved beyond a doubt that the Bible is not true, would you just overnight lose your faith?  God, I hope not.  I hope your faith is more substancial.

Blessing of the Universe be upon you,
d

Dear Dan, you should be aware that the Bible actually challenges man and actually in a sense science just such a challenge.  Take a look:

Jeremiah 31:35: Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37: Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Every time we get a bigger and better telescope, the universe just gets bigger.  Many such as Einstein believed that the universe is finite and not infinite.  God says that if man can measure the heavens above, which we have yet to do, he will cast away Israel.  We have many other Scriptures that tell us He shall never forsake Israel.  Likewise, we have many theories about what is under our feet, but very little is actually known about the center of the earth today.  Is there a God, yes, and He created the heavens above and the earth beneath that we shall never be able to measure above or below.  Just what are the foundations of the earth?  Just how big is the universe above?

[dwcrawford]

I believe that this thread has gone to pot because of people’s inability to talk louder (longer) than Hem.  So many tried to express their beliefs, scientifically, faith based and some just plain faith.  All except a couple agreeing were made to feel total invalidated. 

Oh I understand why some Christians hate Jews.  After all the Jews did kill their favorite Jew.  We all experience the gore in Gospel According to Mel Gibson.  I, however, am of the personal opinion that the gore didn’t at all equal that of the concentration camps in suffering or in magnitude.  I doubt it was any more horrible the treatment of slaves in early days of America – probably mostly by the religious right.

I’ve repeated over and over, only with several others, that we’d love to hear from Hem’s point of view as long as he’d leave it as a point of view.  NO ONE enjoys being told they are going to hell -- especially those of who don’t really believe it exists (or maybe that we’re already there – d.)

Do you actually think a Muslim or a Buddhist would come in and share with us?

My final point, and hopefully the most considerd by Christians, is that if anyone were trying to save me by this kind of rhetoric, you’d have failed drastically.  I’d go far, far away from you in here if I weren’t finding the bigotry to be an education.  I’m learning far more about man’s attitudes and inhumanity to man that I am about God or Science or Evolution or…

[Hemodoc]

Along with Rerun, I ask we keep on topic.  There are many things being said on all sides that are pushing the line.  Moderators are here to help keep order.     I see many saying they can accept what another believes, but it isn't what they believe. Good     I admire anyone who is secure in their faith or beliefs.  I know what I think is right (for me) and have very comfortable with that my entire life.   I want to know how others make their path.   So, I applaud anyone for standing up for their beliefs but  we also need to let others stand for what they believe.    I have been relaying all this to my husband - a devout Christian and conservative - and his response was "well, I certainly hope I got it right - but I know God loves me even if I didn't".    I think the quotes and deep thinking is pushing more and more from this thread and that is a shame.  If you want others to hear "The Word" you have to give them space and room to listen. 

Please try to be kind to one another.  God (and the mods) would really appreciate it.

Dear Paris, simply keeping personal attacks out of the discussion including profanity and insults is all that you need to keep this discussion on line.  That is within your power and I would urge you do so.  That is the single greatest hindrance to this thread, not strong stances on personal beliefs.

[dwcrawford]

Dear hemo, once again you've avoided an answer to a direct question with one of Tyefly's frog stools.

[dwcrawford]

I've seen no actually profanity, but I do believe you were the first to copy pate about biting my ass.  Very Christian I'd say.

[Hemodoc]

Dear hemo, once again you've avoided an answer to a direct question with one of Tyefly's frog stools.

Sorry, Dan, but the Bible states it shall always stand for all eternity.  Man has been attacking the Bible for thousands of years and it still stands including the assault against it from evolution.  It will be here long after you and I are gone.

[paris]

Along with Rerun, I ask we keep on topic.  There are many things being said on all sides that are pushing the line.  Moderators are here to help keep order.     I see many saying they can accept what another believes, but it isn't what they believe. Good     I admire anyone who is secure in their faith or beliefs.  I know what I think is right (for me) and have very comfortable with that my entire life.   I want to know how others make their path.   So, I applaud anyone for standing up for their beliefs but  we also need to let others stand for what they believe.    I have been relaying all this to my husband - a devout Christian and conservative - and his response was "well, I certainly hope I got it right - but I know God loves me even if I didn't".    I think the quotes and deep thinking is pushing more and more from this thread and that is a shame.  If you want others to hear "The Word" you have to give them space and room to listen. 

Please try to be kind to one another.  God (and the mods) would really appreciate it.

Dear Paris, simply keeping personal attacks out of the discussion including profanity and insults is all that you need to keep this discussion on line.  That is within your power and I would urge you do so.  That is the single greatest hindrance to this thread, not strong stances on personal beliefs.

I have basic rules to follow that you may not be aware of.  But thank you for pointing out what moderators do.     

[Hemodoc]

I've seen no actually profanity, but I do believe you were the first to copy pate about biting my ass.  Very Christian I'd say.

Not my choice of words Dan, but it is what Epoman stated. I actually trained with the same nurse and in the same chair that Epoman  did for his NxStage training.  He was quite a character.  He spoke of the King James Bible, his fear of hell and his disbelief in evolution.  In these things, I wish I could have known Bill Epoman Holcomb myself in person.  Many have tried desperately to say that this thread has nothing to do with evolution or the Bible.  Well Epoman says different.  Again, not my choice of words, but his views need to continue to be heard, he started this thread with those statements after all.

[monrein]

  Great post Monrein.  I agree with all of your points and would greatly enjoy people defending their beliefs on why they do or do not believe in God.  Unfortunately, there is a small cabal of folks here that would rather mock and insult that gets in the way of that.  In a debate or discussion, it is customary to place reasons for the side of the discussion that people are supporting.  Clearing up incorrect assessments of my faith is one of the main issues that I have engaged in showing just what the Bible does or does not say.  I agree, I would love to hear other opinions as well if done in a respectful manner including and most especially one of the largest held views of Americans who support the biblical view of the world. 

Thank you for your post.

Peter

Peter, your final sentence here confuses me, especially the last half.  Do you mean that you want to hear most especially from other Americans who happen to hold views identical to your own?  Wouldn't that be somewhat akin to talking to yourself?   

Edited - Fixed quote error: paris, Moderator

[Hemodoc]

Oh I understand why some Christians hate Jews.  After all the Jews did kill their favorite Jew.  We all experience the gore in Gospel According to Mel Gibson.  I, however, am of the personal opinion that the gore didn’t at all equal that of the concentration camps in suffering or in magnitude.  I doubt it was any more horrible the treatment of slaves in early days of America – probably mostly by the religious right.

Dan, Christians don't hate Jews.  It goes completely against Bible teachings.  Any so called Christians that hate Jews are not following the teachings of the Bible.

[paris]

He started a lot of threads --- his site, his thoughts.    We are talking about everything but "is there a God"  -   Evolution, Epoman's chair, etc.   I am reading a lot of "this is what I think and I don't want to know what you think"  --  I do want to know. I want to know why Buddist believe what they do, how Jews and Muslims live by the Old Testement.  But, no one will post now, for fear of a lecture or being put down.      For now, I am going back to praying for my cousin and her baby in Haiti.  That is a bigger problem than who is right or wrong on this thread. 

[dwcrawford]

And yet you just denied having an in with the "owners"?  Truthfully abounds.  Don't threaten me with Epoman!  I explain I have respect for what the site does But I stated I don't know epoman or the currents owner so I have no backup support (other than other members).  I don't idolize epoman but am willing to respect him as a man basic on other people views.

Therefore the validity of epos writings are just as questionable as the total veracity of the bible.

[del]

He started a lot of threads --- his site, his thoughts.    We are talking about everything but "is there a God"  -   Evolution, Epoman's chair, etc.   I am reading a lot of "this is what I think and I don't want to know what you think"  --  I do want to know. I want to know why Buddist believe what they do, how Jews and Muslims live by the Old Testement.  But, no one will post now, for fear of a lecture or being put down.      For now, I am going back to praying for my cousin and her baby in Haiti.  That is a bigger problem than who is right or wrong on this thread.

  Paris. I want to know what everybody thinks and NOBODY should be told they are wrong or are going to hell!! Your cousin and her baby in Haiti is a lot more important than this.

[Hemodoc]

Great post Monrein.  I agree with all of your points and would greatly enjoy people defending their beliefs on why they do or do not believe in God.  Unfortunately, there is a small cabal of folks here that would rather mock and insult that gets in the way of that.  In a debate or discussion, it is customary to place reasons for the side of the discussion that people are supporting.  Clearing up incorrect assessments of my faith is one of the main issues that I have engaged in showing just what the Bible does or does not say.  I agree, I would love to hear other opinions as well if done in a respectful manner including and most especially one of the largest held views of Americans who support the biblical view of the world. 

Thank you for your post.

Peter

Peter, your final sentence here confuses me, especially the last half.  Do you mean that you want to hear most especially from other Americans who happen to hold views identical to your own?  Wouldn't that be somewhat akin to talking to yourself?

Dear Monrein, there are very few people of Christian belief that would want to come here and have their views and the Bible criticized in the manner in which my views have been distorted and disparaged.  So, yes, I would like to think that IHD would allow other born again Christians the courtesy to speak of their faith openly and without chastisement.  I believe if you ask Rerun, she will certainly tell you it is not an easy thing to speak of standard Christian belief in God especially on this thread.   The creation/evolution issue is a great American debate about God and the origins of our existence.  Is there a God, well many Americans believe yes and that He is our creator as well just like Epoman spoke earlier on this thread.  According to Rocker such views are no longer welcome on this thread.  That is quite statement isn't it.

It would be very interesting to hear of other beliefs as well.  Nothing wrong with discussion.  Quite fun actually if people can stay respectful.

[okarol]

Some of you are pushing it.
okarol/admin

From the RULES http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=540.msg3742#msg3742

At anytime a member can be banned at the Admin teams sole discretion. Just as a store "Reserves the right to refuse service to anyone" So can the admin team of IHD. Normally a member is not banned unless he or she is breaking a rule, however at times if the admin team feels a member is causing trouble, the admin (any member of) team reserves the right to ban that member.

Obviously these rules can not cover all situations that come up on IHD so at anytime the admin team can add or delete from these rules. And in certain situations a member may be allowed to break on or more of these rules for certain situations. These rules are not open to debate or interpretation.

All decisions of the admin team are final, challenging a admin decision in open forum will be a bannable offense. This can be handled through PM's and email only.

[-Lady Noir-]

When two opposite points of view are expressed with equal intensity, the truth does not necessarily lie exactly halfway between them. It is possible for one side to be simply wrong

[kitkatz]

Please stay on topic. This a discussion of the question: Is there a God?




kitkatz-Moderator

[rocker]

The issue of Rabbits chewing their cud is another easily answered question from Bible skeptics.  They do eat their cud, not as a ruminant, but they chew their feces and ingest them again.  Take a look:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/audio/answers-daily/volume-064/rabbits-chew-their-cud

This paper on the gastrointestinal function of rabbits disagrees with you.

http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2008&PID=23995&O=Generic

"Three to eight hours after eating, soft mucus-covered caecal pellets (caecotrophs) are expelled and eaten directly from the anus. Arrival of the caecotrophs at the anus triggers a reflex licking of the anus and ingestion of the caecotrophs, which are swallowed whole and not chewed."

[monrein]

The issue of Rabbits chewing their cud is another easily answered question from Bible skeptics.  They do eat their cud, not as a ruminant, but they chew their feces and ingest them again.  Take a look:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/audio/answers-daily/volume-064/rabbits-chew-their-cud

This paper on the gastrointestinal function of rabbits disagrees with you.

http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2008&PID=23995&O=Generic

"Three to eight hours after eating, soft mucus-covered caecal pellets (caecotrophs) are expelled and eaten directly from the anus. Arrival of the caecotrophs at the anus triggers a reflex licking of the anus and ingestion of the caecotrophs, which are swallowed whole and not chewed."

I'm certainly pleased that God saw fit to NOT design humans in this way...I'm very flexible in actual fact but certainly NOT that flexible...either physically or in my eating habits.

[rocker]

"Three to eight hours after eating, soft mucus-covered caecal pellets (caecotrophs) are expelled and eaten directly from the anus. Arrival of the caecotrophs at the anus triggers a reflex licking of the anus and ingestion of the caecotrophs, which are swallowed whole and not chewed."

I'm certainly pleased that God saw fit to NOT design humans in this way...I'm very flexible in actual fact but certainly NOT that flexible...either physically or in my eating habits.

 

I do try hard not to judge other species.

But....damn.

  - rocker

[okarol]

The issue of Rabbits chewing their cud is another easily answered question from Bible skeptics.  They do eat their cud, not as a ruminant, but they chew their feces and ingest them again.  Take a look:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/audio/answers-daily/volume-064/rabbits-chew-their-cud

This paper on the gastrointestinal function of rabbits disagrees with you.

http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2008&PID=23995&O=Generic

"Three to eight hours after eating, soft mucus-covered caecal pellets (caecotrophs) are expelled and eaten directly from the anus. Arrival of the caecotrophs at the anus triggers a reflex licking of the anus and ingestion of the caecotrophs, which are swallowed whole and not chewed."

Good freaking God what is that?
On second thought, DO NOT answer!!
This thread is not "Is the Bible fact or fiction?"
I hope you all keep getting along because I am in the mood to ban someone. Do not take my kindness for weakness.
okarol/admin