Is there a GOD? - ding! ding! ding ding geeeeet reaaaaaady toooooo rummmmble!!!!

[okarol]

When you get to my age you spend a lot more time thinking about the hereafter.
I often find myself going into a room and thinking what did I come in here after.

 

[Hanify]

I'm with you Aleta - and I have no problem with you being an atheist.  I gather from your threads that you are a caring loving person who has done far more good in the world through your teaching and just your life than many other religious people who might or might not spend hours in a church.  That's all that matters to me, and I cannot believe in a God that would somehow not 'count' good people who happen not to believe.  By the same token I also know lots of church going people (my mother and my inlaws for example) who also give lots of their time up in the community and are genuinely good good people.  I really don't actually care what the bible says, and I'm certainly not going to follow teachings from 2000 years ago.  They do not apply now.

[Rerun]

For those who don't know:  OT = Old Testament and NT = New Testament.

The Old Testament is the old law and the prophecy that there would be a Redeemer who is Jesus Christ which starts the New Testament.  The Jewish religion doesn't believe in the new testament.  They are still waiting for a Saviour.  Christians and Muslims believe the same until Abraham and then we split.

Hemodoc is right on.  I like him more and more.   

For those of you who don't believe in life after death you better look into it.  There IS life after death and one will be in hell.  It would be so much easier if you just died and nothing happened. 

It doesn't matter what you "believe"  it matters what "IS".  What is......  Be prepared. 

God created the earth and everything in this earth.  If you study "science" they cannot answer why the earth stays in the orbit, sustains life, water plants......  The Hubble satellite finally got a picture of the black hole and guess what they saw... The Cross.  That won't mean a thing to people who don't know why Jesus died on the cross for us.  You can't explain it to people who have not accepted his gift of eternal life. 

[Rerun]

I'm with you Aleta - and I have no problem with you being an atheist.  I gather from your threads that you are a caring loving person who has done far more good in the world through your teaching and just your life than many other religious people who might or might not spend hours in a church.  That's all that matters to me, and I cannot believe in a God that would somehow not 'count' good people who happen not to believe.  By the same token I also know lots of church going people (my mother and my inlaws for example) who also give lots of their time up in the community and are genuinely good good people.  I really don't actually care what the bible says, and I'm certainly not going to follow teachings from 2000 years ago.  They do not apply now.

Don't you think it is amazing that the Bible and Churches have survived the last 2000 years?  There is a reason.  The people who give time in their local Church help LOADS of people.  They give if their money, time and lives. 

The Lord says to accept him as the Son of God and you will have a place in heaven.  How hard is that?  You can be the BEST person in the world but if you don't recognize Jesus, he won't recognize you. 

I agree with Hemodoc.  Read the Bible cover to cover the NIV version (which is easy to understand) and then you can try and poke holes.  It is not easy to be a Christian.  Once you give your life over to the Lord, then Satan tries to get you back.  It is much easier to just be a nice, hard working person who doesn't care about religion or what other people believe.  La La LAND!

I know some really smart people, too smart to believe there is a God.  And then one day they find the truth.  Then they are just on FIRE to spread the word.  Funny how that happens.

[Des]

For those who don't know:  OT = Old Testament and NT = New Testament.

The Old Testament is the old law and the prophecy that there would be a Redeemer who is Jesus Christ which starts the New Testament.  The Jewish religion doesn't believe in the new testament.  They are still waiting for a Saviour.  Christians and Muslims believe the same until Abraham and then we split.

Hemodoc is right on.  I like him more and more.   

For those of you who don't believe in life after death you better look into it.  There IS life after death and one will be in hell.  It would be so much easier if you just died and nothing happened. 

It doesn't matter what you "believe"  it matters what "IS".  What is......  Be prepared. 

God created the earth and everything in this earth.  If you study "science" they cannot answer why the earth stays in the orbit, sustains life, water plants......  The Hubble satellite finally got a picture of the black hole and guess what they saw... The Cross.  That won't mean a thing to people who don't know why Jesus died on the cross for us.  You can't explain it to people who have not accepted his gift of eternal life.

Ditto....... Thats me agreeing wholeheartedly!

[LightLizard]

actually, science does answer all those questions quite well. but, if you've already chosen to believe that the mythology of the bible is history, you won't have much of a chance to see the truth.
belief is not truth. it's a substitute for it.
and by the way, the bible was written a few hundred years AFTER jesus was supposed to have lived and died. the only bathing i read about in the bible was foot-washing. and it  wasn't as much for cleanliness as it was for honoring someone. a four-year-old of today has a more developed intellect than the adults of those days, so i don't buy that the bible is anything but a book of mythology. which is NOT history.

[Bajanne]

and by the way, the bible was written a few hundred years AFTER jesus was supposed to have lived and died.

Really?  Where did you get that 'fact' from?  The gospels and the epistles of the New Testament were all written in the same generation. John, who was Jesus' contemporary, wrote Revelation before he died.

I have come to realize that the only thing you can do is present the truth, as Hemodoc so succintly did.  Then we can only pray that the Holy Spirit would give light and sight to those who are to be saved.

[Hemodoc]

actually, science does answer all those questions quite well. but, if you've already chosen to believe that the mythology of the bible is history, you won't have much of a chance to see the truth.
belief is not truth. it's a substitute for it.
and by the way, the bible was written a few hundred years AFTER jesus was supposed to have lived and died. the only bathing i read about in the bible was foot-washing. and it  wasn't as much for cleanliness as it was for honoring someone. a four-year-old of today has a more developed intellect than the adults of those days, so i don't buy that the bible is anything but a book of mythology. which is NOT history.

Come, come LightLizard, "the intellect of a 4 year old?"  Plato, Aristotle, Hippocrates and so many others honoured in our universities today certainly had a higher intellect than a 4 year old.  Forgive me, but if you believe that statement, then you are believing in a false mythology of the Jews and Christians from 2000 years ago.

Once again, simply go to the book of Levitucus and look at all of the references to bathing and all the circimstances it was done.  The Jews were a very clean people, that is in part how they survived when others did not.  Read the Bible for yourself.  No one that reads the Bible cover to cover could make the statement that cleanliness was not part of the Jewish religion.  It is there as big as day.  Let's look at things in an objective manner and not by emotional biases.  If you wish to believe that the Bible is a bunch of myths, that is your right, but making false statements about the Bible really does not help your cause in proving such a motion.

As far as science, an interesting discourse is to read through the works of Sir Fred Hoyle who completely disagreed with the big bang theory.  He was an atheist and not a Christian at all if you are wondering.  Sir Fred Hoyle's mathematical computations on the impossibility of the big bang from a statistical basis is a set of work that all should at least familiarize themselves with.  If you are looking for reasonable doubt about the big bang, you need go no further than Sir Fred Hoyle.  I don't believe he got the answer right with panspermia either but that is a different issue.

Most are quite  taken aback to learn that our scientists have absolutely no direct evidence of the origins of life and are still quite puzzled by this random and chance act as our current science states.  As Sir Fred Hoyle stated, there is not enough time nor enough matter in the universe for a spontaneous random, chance start of life.

As far as the historical accuracy of the Bible, many are quite surprised to see just how accurate it is an historical book as well.  Archeology has proven again and again the claims of innacuracy false.  Kings, nations and events felt to be myth turned out again and again to be true once the "scientists" found the archeological evidence.  It goes on even today with discoveries of references to NT folks is unearthed over and over again.

I avoided a direct debate on IHD on this post for quite a while since the debates over the Bible usually are most unfruitful. It is not likely that either side of the debate will change the minds of the other side.  The only reason I jumped in at this time is the false statements that are easily refuted.  Bathing is a topic throughout the entire Bible much more so than people of that age 4500 years ago.  In fact, if you look at the Bible in the OT, there really is a very modern application of prevention of disease by limiting the spread of germs utilizing not only bathing but also isolation techniques that are both used today as halmarks of disease prevention.  Truly remarkable really since germs weren't discovered until 3500 years later.  That is an accurate representation of what the Bible has to say about bathing and prevention of disease in a large population.  Simply read Leviticus and you may change your mind about the bathing issue.  It is certainly there in black and white for all to read for themselves.

Once again, if you would simply read the Bible, you would certainly not state that there is nothing stated about bathing.  Try it for yourself.  Once again, I don't comment for the need of converting you, just simply to correct innacurate statements about the Bible. If people wish to debate these issues, that is fine, but stick to the true facts please.

[BigSky]

actually, science does answer all those questions quite well. but, if you've already chosen to believe that the mythology of the bible is history, you won't have much of a chance to see the truth.
belief is not truth. it's a substitute for it.
and by the way, the bible was written a few hundred years AFTER jesus was supposed to have lived and died. the only bathing i read about in the bible was foot-washing. and it  wasn't as much for cleanliness as it was for honoring someone. a four-year-old of today has a more developed intellect than the adults of those days, so i don't buy that the bible is anything but a book of mythology. which is NOT history.

To have formed that opinion you have then read very little of the bible.

If you did read it you would know it full of references to being clean.

[paul.karen]

Best part of this thread is in the numbers.  DUH

Question: Is there a GOD Yes, Of course. Duh!  67 (62.6%)
Nope, when you're dead, you're dead.  18 (16.8%)
Not sure, with all the suffering in the world.  8 (7.5%)
Yes of course and dialysis is HELL and we are already dead.  4 (3.7%)
Undecided.  10 (9.3%)
 
Total Members Voted: 107

 

[Rerun]

It shows a little bit of Epoman's sense of humor.

"Yes of course, and dialysis is HELL and we are already dead"               

[Des]

LITTLE OLD LADY~

There was a little old lady, who every morning. stepped onto her front porch, raised her arms to the sky, and shouted: 'PRAISE THE LORD!' 

One day an atheist moved into the house next door. 
He became irritated at the little old lady.
Every morning he'd step onto his front porch after her and yell: 'THERE IS NO LORD!'

Time passed with the two of them carrying on this 
way every day.

One morning, in the middle of winter, the little old lady stepped onto her front porch and shouted: 'PRAISE THE LORD! Please Lord, I have no food and I am starving, provide for me, oh Lord!  The next morning she stepped out onto her porch and there were two huge bags of groceries sitting there. 

'PRAISE THE LORD!' she cried out. 'HE HAS PROVIDED GROCERIES FOR ME!'

The atheist neighbor jumped out of the hedges 
and shouted:
'THERE IS NO LORD; I BOUGHT THOSE GROCERIES!!'

The little old lady threw her arms into the air and shouted: 'PRAISE THE LORD!
HE HAS PROVIDED ME WITH GROCERIES AND MADE THE DEVIL PAY FOR THEM!' 



I just found this SO funny... I had to put it here.

[Hanify]

Ha ha ha. Good one Des.

[Des]

Yep,,, I was laughing my butt off.... Just shows you how everyone can entepret(spelling) things diffirently.

[willowtreewren]

I agree it makes for a funny joke, but in real life humanists and atheists who do good works may find the redirection of thanks going to god an affront to the effort they put forth.

I will never forget the time my husband gave a beggar $10 and the man said, "Praise be to god for your generosity." My husband said that being an atheist, he wanted the the beggar to understand that god had nothing to do with the gift, and if the beggar wanted to praise god for it, he would like the money back! 

The beggar looked him in the eye and said, "No, sir. Thank YOU, sir."

With the new student in my classroom who we are working so hard to help, the mother keeps saying that she thanks god for all his progress. Hmmm. It makes me think of the line I heard somewhere that goes something like this:

Better by far are hands that work than lips that pray.

I wonder how much progress he would be making if I simply prayed for him to improve instead of working my butt off to find strategies that work for him.

I'm not trying to belittle anyone for their faith. Faith is faith. I'm not the devil (don't believe in him either!). I'm a good person doing good works.

I have a wide circle of friends who are also atheists and the level of commitment to community work is astounding among these fine folks. And interestingly, that work is done with no strings attached, and without any recognition that the work is being done by atheists.

With the percentage of the US population self-reporting as non-believers falling somewhere in the 11-14% range (with it being higher in other countries), I can pretty accurately state that atheists are the nicest people you don't know you know. Because of the societal backlash, it is hard for many of us to come out of the closet.

I hope this did not sound like a rant. I'm actually feeling a little sad about it. There is such a prevalent assumption out there that atheists are devil worshipers and baby killers - that we must be evil since we don't get our morals from religion.

I remember a woman once who did not want to touch a book I had been holding when she discovered I did not have faith in a god. It was like she had been bitten by a snake or she was afraid of contamination by even being near me. 

I think it is part of that human propensity for lumping folks into us/them categories and making sweeping judgments about the "other" groups.

Sigh.

I look forward to the day that we can all live in harmony and mutual respect.

Aleta

[Rerun]

If you don't recognize Jesus here on earth he will not recognize you to his father in heaven.  Then you will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity. 

Knowing this..... I ask you to make your decision.         

[Des]

My dear friend. wtw.... My joke was REALLY not meant as a "calling you a devil" post.

I love you lots and I know you care more than many other "mouth" Christians....

Judgement is not for me to make......

I will always try to see the good in other people and this is me aknowlidging (I just cant spell) it.

[dwcrawford]

Des, I would like to express my opinion about your joke but I'm afraid too.  I thought it very funny as would my good friend the rabbi.  Anyway, may I please send you a PM?  I think your joke supported my position anyway.

[Des]

sure no prob.....

send me many pm's

I think I sent you some ... you did not reply.

[BigSky]

I will never forget the time my husband gave a beggar $10 and the man said, "Praise be to god for your generosity." My husband said that being an atheist, he wanted the the beggar to understand that god had nothing to do with the gift, and if the beggar wanted to praise god for it, he would like the money back! 

The beggar looked him in the eye and said, "No, sir. Thank YOU, sir."

Aleta

That is called being an Indian giver and there is nothing funny about it.

Its on the same level as offering a homeless person ten bucks and as they reach for it pulling it back and telling them they have to bark like a dog if they want it.

Is not laughter you should be showing over that event, its shame.

[paul.karen]

I have never heard anyone say an atheist is a  devil worshiper and especially not a Baby Killer.

As for your student try thinking more positive.  Maybe she is praying that she FOUND you to help her child???

From reading these threads it seems atheists are very negative to wards people who believe God.

We are all individual who can do as we please.  We shouldn't knock others for there beliefs be them with god or without god.

[willowtreewren]

Des, I know YOU weren't calling me a devil. Really, I do. I'm sorry if it cam across that way.

 

But, I have lived with that appellation most of my adult life.

Thanks, though.

Rerun, I appreciate your conviction, but I still have a hard time reconciling the idea of a loving deity with one who is so vindictive that mere lack of belief would condemn one to an eternity of hell. And if that god is all powerful and all knowing, then he would know in advance that I and others like me would not have belief in him. Knowing in advance that many would not believe in him and then having a rule that they are condemned to an eternity of suffering seems downright mean. I cannot accept that behavior as loving, just as I would not find that kind of behavior as loving in a human. In fact, I think humans more loving and forgiving than the gods of most religions. I truly like humans a whole lot more that I like the idea of god.

Paul, until you have walked in the shoes of an atheist, you would not know how we are treated and what we are called.

We are all individual who can do as we please.  We shouldn't knock others for there beliefs be them with god or without god.

I totally agree. And if I have come across as knocking someone else's beliefs, I apologize. I have just tried to explain where I am.

Its on the same level as offering a homeless person ten bucks and as they reach for it pulling it back and telling them they have to bark like a dog if they want it.

Have you visited any homeless shelters? At many of them, the recipients of the aid must commit to being Christians before being allowed housing.



Aleta

[paul.karen]

Who said i wasnt an atheist?
And i have been around the block many times and never heard an atheist called a BABY KILLER nor satanist.

As for homeless shelters i have stayed at and worked at and have NEVER heard of your claims?  Do you know how homeless shelters run.  Or food banks or soup kithens.
True some places may say a PRAYER at the opening of the night but you dont have to pray or hold hands, heck you can even go outside and smoke a smoke if there doing nightly prayer.  But you dont have to CONVERT and they dont try talking to people about god.
If you want to talk god and there is a Christian there im sure they will talk with you.
I mean really homeless shelters where drug addicts whores and people down on there luck have to accept god or be turned away is ludicrous at best.
I have been on my own since age 16.  I lived under an I-5 overpass in Seattle i used soup kitchens shelters and the likes.  Never once had i to convert.

My mother use to work at her churches food bank.  She gave Free food to many people.  People in the church and strangers of the street.  She may have put a pamphlet in there food box.  But so what she felt good helping others.  And  trust me when i say many others loved her who NEVER went to her church.  They thought she was a good lady.

I say equal rights to all. 
Needless of ones convictions, who are we to judge others.

[BigSky]

but I still have a hard time reconciling the idea of a loving deity with one who is so vindictive that mere lack of belief would condemn one to an eternity of hell. And if that god is all powerful and all knowing, then he would know in advance that I and others like me would not have belief in him. Knowing in advance that many would not believe in him and then having a rule that they are condemned to an eternity of suffering seems downright mean. I cannot accept that behavior as loving, just as I would not find that kind of behavior as loving in a human. In fact, I think humans more loving and forgiving than the gods of most religions. I truly like humans a whole lot more that I like the idea of god.

Does a parent not love their child?

Does  a parent no let their child have free will to do their own thing at some point?

Does a parent not tell their child between right and wrong and the consequences of doing wrong?

If said child knows something is wrong and yet still commits a wrong do they not suffer the consequences for their actions?

Even though the child has committed this wrong and the parent has to punish the child for it, does not the parent still love the child? 

Does it not hurt the parent that they must punish the child for their actions?

Does that really make the parent vindictive?

Its on the same level as offering a homeless person ten bucks and as they reach for it pulling it back and telling them they have to bark like a dog if they want it.

Have you visited any homeless shelters? At many of them, the recipients of the aid must commit to being Christians before being allowed housing.
Aleta

I have never seen or heard that to be the case.  I think you maybe relying on rumor and falsehoods on that or the very least overstating what is asked of people.

[willowtreewren]

Here in the south (TN) it is not unusual for shelters to proselytize to those staying there and urge them to be saved by accepting Jesus Christ into their lives. Granted, those who don't are not turned away, but they are made to feel unworthy of help.