Is there a GOD? - ding! ding! ding ding geeeeet reaaaaaady toooooo rummmmble!!!!

[Stoday]

Billy Graham visited England 25 years ago. He visited my town to give a presentation at the local football ground. I went along because I wanted to hear a great orator.

The ground was filled with at least 20,000. His address was aimed at lapsed Christians, not atheists like me. Nevertheless, it was interesting to listen to him. After a while someone on the dias called on the audience to "be upstanding and praise the lord". 19,999 stood, but I remained seated since I could not stand or praise a non-existent deity. This provoked the guy standing behind me to rest his hymn sheet on my head, a somewhat unchristian action, I thought.

I did contribute to the collection when it circulated — I'm not a free-loader and I did enjoy the presentation although it could not change my beliefs.

Eventually, Billy Graham called on the lapsed Christians to come down to the field to declare their reborn faith and receive their blessing. I thought it time to depart, so I stood and made my way out. The audience around me thought I might be joining the others in the field, so started to applaud. I didn't like to tell tham that I was on my way to the "Sporting Farmer" pub for a pint of beer...

[dwcrawford]

I had tickets to the planned (but next to last actual function) of Tammy Faye and Jim Baker.  Opps, it got cancelled but I got my money back.

Chauffeur came in limo to pick up Billy Graham.  Graham said to chauffeur, I've never driven on of these.  Please let me drive.  After some coaching and praying the chauffeur agreed.  Graham started down the freeway a little too fast and not very long after he was pulled over by a highway patrol man.  The patrolman looked in the drivers window and was perplexed.  What should he do?  He thinks, I'll better call in to check protocol.  He gets his supervisor on the phone and says I've stopped someone and really down want to give them a ticket.  But we don't discriminate says the supervisor.  But it is someone really important says the patrol man.  Is it the Governors?  No, more important than that.  The President?  No, even more important.  Who then asked the supervisor?  I'm  not sure replies the patrolman but it may be Jesus.  The Chauffeur is Billy Graham.!

Forgive me.

[Razman]

Perhaps instead of talking about someone's religion in a negative sense, we would be better to return to the original intent that Epoman set forth: Is there a God?  My answer is an emphatic yes for a host of reasons.

I agree with Hemodoc.  My answer is also yes there is a God and I have accepted him as my Saviour. 
Even Satan believes that there is God.  But, he has not accepted him as his Saviour.  That is the big difference.  Some how this thing called religion has pointed people in the wrong direction.  There is a book out called  The End of Region.  The writer gives "a fresh perspective on biblical stories, a picture of the world God originally intended and still desires: a world without religion".  Man made up this thing called religion.

http://www.theendofreligion.org/

[paris]

I had tickets to the planned (but next to last actual function) of Tammy Faye and Jim Baker.  Opps, it got cancelled but I got my money back.

Chauffeur came in limo to pick up Billy Graham.  Graham said to chauffeur, I've never driven on of these.  Please let me drive.  After some coaching and praying the chauffeur agreed.  Graham started down the freeway a little too fast and not very long after he was pulled over by a highway patrol man.  The patrolman looked in the drivers window and was perplexed.  What should he do?  He thinks, I'll better call in to check protocol.  He gets his supervisor on the phone and says I've stopped someone and really down want to give them a ticket.  But we don't discriminate says the supervisor.  But it is someone really important says the patrol man.  Is it the Governors?  No, more important than that.  The President?  No, even more important.  Who then asked the supervisor?  I'm  not sure replies the patrolman but it may be Jesus.  The Chauffeur is Billy Graham.!

Forgive me.

This is a funny story!  North Carolina is Billy's home, so we like him as a person and humanitarian.  Leaving religion out of it, he is a good. kind man.

[-Lady Noir-]

Dare i say it, whatever we believe.. i try to stay out of the religion discussion, especially on the internet.
For there will always be heated arguments, even if somebody is of the same mind as yourself.

Get ON with it 

[pamster42000]

Just a point of view I heard once:

When people die they go to heaven and the people here are in hell right now.

I believe there is a higher power...it just seems different religious beliefs get in the way. Causes alot of wars and hatred for some reason.

I just go by the common everyday things...don't judge people by gossip you hear, care for ones that can't help themselves and try to forgive others for wrong doings. OK the last one is kinda hard cause sometimes I have a hard time doing it...but if you do your life is a whole lot better.

After my daughter, Sarah passed away I got thinking about heaven as the Lutheran faith believes. I have problems with some of what the bible says.......but I do believe all the things Sarah went through in her short life there has to be a reward in the end.....so yes I do believe there is a higher power and a heaven.

[looneytunes]

I have a strong faith and belief in a God who created this world and then gave the ultimate gift...his son...to show mankind the way to eternal life.  I do not adhere to any organized religion and feel that the God I love is just and true.  He would never punish someone for belonging to the wrong club as long as their reasons were based in love for Him and faith. 

[Hemodoc]

Jesus came with a singular message for all of mankind, you must be born again.  John chapter 3 goes into great detail on this.  It is perhaps one of the most misunderstand statements that Jesus spoke to us.  The take home message, no one can see the kingdom of Heaven if they are not born again.

I became a born again believer in 1994 through a series of events showing me the truth of God's word.  In fact, Peter the apostle explains that we are born of an incorruptible seed through His Holy word.

I understand well having our own opinions about heaven and hell, but one thing simply would not make any sense for sure.  If we can make it to heaven by our own good works or other means, then why did Jesus die on the cross?  In the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus asked a simple question of his Father, whether there was any other way to save mankind than by going to the cross.  The answer resounds for all eternity that it was the only way.

In John 5:39, we learn that the Bible testifies of Jesus from Genesis to Revelation.  The more I study the Bible, the more truth in this statement I learn.  When I used to go into the local prison and preach the gospel, one of my favorite sermons was that the witness of God is greater than the witness of man. ( I John chapter 5)  The record of the works that Jesus would do is found throughout the entire Old Testament.  The story of his parables and the story of his death on the cross is all on record for all to read.  All I can testify is that I found the Lord Jesus through reading and then believing the Bible through many infallible proofs.  No matter what you believe or not, I would invite all to simply look at what is written throughout the Bible and understand that it gives us the record of God's only begotten Son throughout from start to finish.  He truly did die for the sins of the world.  All are invited and all are welcome, but just as there was only one way for Jesus to save us, there is likewise the way the truth and the life through Jesus Christ.  That is his claim and he has the proof written by the hand of God to all of mankind to back this up.

Don't take my word for this, search it out for yourself by reading the Bible.

[dwcrawford]

I think I  recall getting  into serious trouble in her once upon a time.  Did I say there were a lot of experts or something like that.  Damn, I’m becoming one of them tonight.

Yes there is a god and it isn’t a benevolent old man saving people from diseases nor a man of vengence killing masses.. The Bible is one source or reference.

I believe in Good!  I’ll drop an “O”, no problem.  I believe in my God.  I believe in Evil!  I’ll add a big “D”, no problems.  I believe in Devil.  Isn’t it all about our inner conflicts with good and evil anyway? 

No, please don’t laugh.  Please don’t make fun of or correct my antiquated science.  Here goes!

I believe that the universe is made of Good (God if you will) and Evil (Devil if you will).  I’ve read or been told or somehow acquired the idea that the Universe is composed of Matter, Energy and Time and that Matter, Energy nor Time can neither be created or destroyed, but that they are in constant change.  Therefore, since we in the human form have a brain (sometimes), a specific body, and some would say a soul, as long as that brain, body and soul remain intact (in that same form) then it is our responsibility to seek out the God (good) in the universe and to dispel evil (the devil) in the universe.

But we know full well, we die.  Time and energy change our bodies into dust or bones or gas.  Our spirit (energy) remains for a while and then implants itself, positively or negatively, elsewhere.  We know that coal turns to diamonds (hurry up before I die because I got  a lot of coal for Christmas), and etc. etc. and etc.  Therefore, we know that there will be in existence after death.  We could become a piece of coal and then eventually a diamond – or else get burned for heat and energy and become ashes again.  Didn’t the God of Genesis create man from ashes and dust?  Oops, maybe we are all saying the same things but just our limited vocabularies are getting in the way!  Let’s not go to WAR over it.

Makes sense to me anyway.

Most people need a god or a belief.  So do I!  If I subscribed to a traditional belief it would be Christianity simply because of all the art and music inspired from that religion.  Well, there are others, but those are the arts and music that became a part of my life.  But I believe in this rather specific, some may say ridiculous, belief.  I need a higher power.  It is the Universe composed of good and bad things.  It is you and all the things that made you what you are.  It is art and music, beauty, war, illnesses and hatred, and most of all it is love for the rest of mankind.  Yes, we can have it regardless of differences in your beliefs or of mine -- or even if your believe only in doing good.

I didn’t want to go out on anything controversial, but I do want to say you all have given me such inspiration by your actions and by your attitudes from whatever source it comes.  I wish you all the greatest blessings regardless of your god or your religion - where you believe or not.  The important part is how you live what you believe – maybe.  Or how we treat one another.

[del]

Beautiful post, Dan!!  The world would be a very peaceful place if  people would accept other people's views and opinions. 

I too believe there has to be a power greater than us but I have trouble sometimes believing in the "ordinary" view of God. If there is a God why is there so much fighting and suffering in the world?  I do believe in treating other people as equals, not hurting other people and being kind to everyone.  I accept other people's concepts of religion and God even though they may be completely different from mine.

[paris]

Great post, Dan.  I heard someone say " I believe in all paths to God"  So, whatever one believes is their path.   It helps me to believe in a higher power.   I love the traditions of organized church - the music, the prayers, the fellowship.  But, I don't think God is responsible for all the bad things that happen; wars, children dying, diseases, etc.     Now I am going to re-read Dan's post.      Good and Evil  / God and Devil

[dwcrawford]

Thank you Del and Paris.  I really expected negative responses but so glad you understand.  Mine is certainly not an organized belief, but then I've never had much of an organized  life.  lol

[willowtreewren]

Thank you Dan and Del,

While I do not believe in a higher power, I do hold that people can and should be accepting of the beliefs of others. I fear that most organized religions do not share that sentiment despite lip service to it. Otherwise there would not have been the many religious wars over the millennia.

I realize that some folks need to have a higher power, and that is perfectly all right.

For me, I know that I am made of the stuff of stars and will return to the same stuff when my life is over. I don't need a god to be good. And I certainly try to good all the time (though not always successful). Because this is the only life that I have (I believe in life before death), it is very precious and I need to make the most of it. My only shot at immortality is to leave a bequest of good works behind.

Aleta

[del]

Thank you Dan and Del,

While I do not believe in a higher power, I do hold that people can and should be accepting of the beliefs of others. I fear that most organized religions do not share that sentiment despite lip service to it. Otherwise there would not have been the many religious wars over the millennia.

I realize that some folks need to have a higher power, and that is perfectly all right.




For me, I know that I am made of the stuff of stars and will return to the same stuff when my life is over. I don't need a god to be good. And I certainly try to good all the time (though not always successful). Because this is the only life that I have (I believe in life before death), it is very precious and I need to make the most of it. My only shot at immortality is to leave a bequest of good works behind.


Aleta

I have a big problem with organized religion. If you believe in God and that there is only one God why are there so many denominations. If there is a heaven I doubt that it is broken up into different areas for different denominations.  When I was growing up mom made us go to church.  She always said she didn't care who we married as long as they weren't catholic.  Will that made no difference to me.  Anyway she ended up not liking any of her son in laws or her daughter in law!!  Where I live there is a LOT of fundamentalist religion but those same people who practice it want nothing to do with you unless you are part of that same belief.  Those same people though are the first ones to gossip and spread rumors about other people.

I always try to be as good as I can be too aleta and try to live life to the fullest because you never know when your last day will be!!

[paris]

You are right, Del.  I am known more unGodly people in church than on the streets.  My friend is a fundamentalist and thinks until I am born again, I am not going to Heaven.  If there is a heaven, I have already earned my spot there!      My Lutheran in laws think my cousin (of the Jewish faith) is going to Hell.  My Mother raised us knowing all beliefs and exposing us to every way of thinking.  My sister is an atheist, one brother an agnostic, another sister a devout Christian.  We were given the knowledge of many great people and then set our own course.  I know what works for me and I don't ever think I need to impose my thoughts on others.   Although, I did tell a Muslim friend on Christmas day that I couldn't be Muslim because I couldn't kneel down and bow so many times a day.  Someone would have to help me up and down!!  (he thought I was very funny!)    In my house, you will find the cross, Buddah, menorah, prayer beads, rosary ----- guess I am just covering all the bases!    It is nice to see that others like to live what they believe and not feel the need to preach about it or try to change my thinking.   Great minds her at IHD!     

[willowtreewren]

Although, I did tell a Muslim friend on Christmas day that I couldn't be Muslim because I couldn't kneel down and bow so many times a day.  Someone would have to help me up and down!!  (he thought I was very funny!)

Oh, Paris, I am with you on that! The old knees just don't work as well as they used to! 

[dwcrawford]

It is easier to knell than ever.  As long as you never need to get up.

[Hanify]

The problem I have with the born again theory Hemodoc is that I have never need to be born again as I was bought up in a Christian household in the first place.  So where does that leave me?  Do you honestly believe that God would put me aside because I'm not 'born again' when I have been a Christian all my life?  Come to that, you see, I just can't believe that God would put anyone aside - let alone good people who spend their lives being good.  Anyway, the reason there are different religions within the same heading (Christianity) Del, is because what I need from religion is very very different to what other people need -  but we still follow Christ.  Just like a Muslim should not be compared to a person who would bomb a building - such different people.

[paris]

Good comparisons, Hanify!   That is why we have Macy's, Walmart, Norstroms, etc.  Or Taco Bell, Outback, Ruth's steak house.   We all find what we need and what works for us.  I have been learning alot about the Muslim beliefs lately -- different branches, just like the different branches of Christianity.  Same with the Jewish faith.    My kids would say that my favorite phrase is "don't be rightous" because we don't  know who is right or wrong on any subject.     And I totally agree with your thoughts on being  born again.  But, if it works for some - so be it.  Each to his own thoughts.   

By the way, this was one of Epoman's favorite threads.  He would just sit back and watch!   

[Stoday]

First, Hanify, you are born of the flesh. You are born again of the spirit.

John 3:3 — Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4 — Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
John 3:5 — Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!
John 3:6 — That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

[Hemodoc]

Dear Hanify,

Thank you for your kind reply.  Let me make the issue simply whether what is written in the Bible is true or not true.  If it is not true, then it makes no difference what people believe since there would not just be one way, one truth and one life as Jesus Himself tells us.  However, if it is true, then we need to pay attention to what is written.  For myself, I was confronted with that very question.  I sought whether the Bible was true.  One day, the Lord literally showed me from His Holy word that the Bible is the true literal word of God.  As I put in my first post, the OT speaks of the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth in hundreds of prophecies.  No other holy book has the record written of their founder as does the Bible and Jesus.

Examples, Psalm 22, the crucifixion, Isaiah 53, the crucifixion, Zechariah 12:10 and 13:6, the crucifixion.  Moving forward, Josh Mcdowell has some very compelling writings on the evidence of the resurrection and the crucifixion.  He wrote a book called Evidence that demands a verdict. He has some other sources on his website as well:

http://www.josh.org/site/c.ddKDIMNtEqG/b.4172665/k.4AD0/Evidence_for_the_Resurrection.htm

So many people believe that we have blind faith who believe in the Bible when that is really not the truth at all.  The Bible is filled from start to finish with evidence of its truth through fulfilled prophecies.  The point of my post was to offer the challenge of searching through His Holy word for this evidence as I did myself many years ago.  For myself, my search was simply answering the following questions, how is it possible that these things written were either by chance alone or secondly contrived as some mistakenly assert. I am satisfied after much searching and questioning that the Bible is what is says it is.

It is usually a very unfruitful discussion to debate these issues so all I can do is relate my own personal quest and search for the truth of the Bible.  All that I will state is that I have found very compelling evidence that Jesus is exactly who He said He is, the Son of God, the Messiah and our Saviour.  Should you and others choose to follow different beliefs, that is certainly your right.  All I can add is that I have found overwhelming proof and evidence that does demand a verdict.  For myself, I am a born again believer through the uncorrupted word of God by the evidence that I have been confronted with.  It is my hope that you and others could review and understand what has been written and given to us in the Bible.  Once again, the witness of God is greater than the witness of man through the written record of God's Son contained in the Bible.  That is the conclusion that I have come to after reviewing the evidence for myself. 

Just my own personal testimony of my own personal search about the Bible.

[Hemodoc]

Dear Hanify,

Let me look at another aspect of your response with a simple question.  Are people good or are we all sinners?  In Luke 18:18-19, a man came to Jesus and called him "Good master."  Jesus replied and said, why do you call me good.  Only God is good.

Once again, if we are all good, then why did Jesus need to die on the cross?  If we are all sinners that need a Saviour, then His death on the cross makes sense.  If we are all good people, those that is that don't kill or do "evil" things, then what purpose is the death of Jesus on the cross at Calvary?

David in Psalm 51 states that he was conceived in sin.  The story of the Bible is that of fallen man in need of a Saviour, a Deliverer and a Messiah.  The story of the Bible is how Jesus brought salvation to sinful mankind for those call upon His name and believe in His word.  That is the story of the Bible in a nutshell.  Once again, we are back to the basic question that I posed in my first post, is the Bible true or not true?  That is where the search starts and ends.

There is unfortunately no common ground for discussion if that very simple question is not first answered.

[Hanify]

I don't know about all the bible stuff - each to his or her own with that one I think.  I guess for me it comes down to an old thing the nuns used to make us do - and that's WWJD.  We wrote wwJd everywhere, and that stands for what would Jesus do?  And so the answers for me about other religions and different beliefs and homosexuality etc are easy - because Jesus came to show us a new way of being.  That new way included forgiveness and understanding and love.  That's it for me I think - not the minutiae of the bible.

[Hemodoc]

Hanify,  It's really quite simple to read the Bible yourself instead of taking some one else's word for what it says and means no matter how fervent the nuns were.  Once again, that has been the entire purpose of all of my posts the last couple of days on this thread to simply consider looking at the evidence first hand.  It is interesting that most of the people that I have met, but not all, that criticize the Bible have never read it.  All I can say is you may be quite surprised what it really says as I found myself once I started searching for spiritual answers myself.  In fact, there are quite amazing things written thousands of years ago fulfilled even today that do demand a verdict of how, why and who put them there.

The question is again, is the Bible the word of God or simply a compilation of a bunch of desert dwellers with no eternal significance at all.  That is the question of importance.  Is the Bible true, or not?  The only way to answer that question is to read it and search it out.   If the important events of the world and the important events of the life of Christ is found in the Old Testament, there has to be an explanation for that fact.  Is it by contrivance?  Is it by coincidence? Or is it instead by the hand of God as a message to mankind of His plan of salvation for sinful man?  I will simply state that the fact that these prophecies are in the Old Testament demands a verdict.  I certainly won't demand anyone believe as I believe, but to deny that something is not in the Bible when it is written in black and white is not something that should be ignored or slighted.  Let me phrase it differently.  Is it really true that the birth of Christ, the death of Christ and His resurrection is all written and told in the Old Testament?  If that is true, then I would think that we all should account how that could be.  Is it by chance, or a personal message from our Creator?

[del]

I have read the bible and it is open to interpretations. Individual people can interpret it their own way depending on their experiences and their beliefs.  You can do this with most books.  Don't get me wrong I am NOT saying the bible is a lie and if people would just live by accepting others for what they are, forgiveness, understanding and compassion the world would be a much better place. Other religions - Muslums, Jews, Buddhisms have their own set of beliefs that basically follow the same thing.  Only difference is their higher power is different. 
As for the basic question is there a God - I don't know but I do believe there is some type of power that is greater than us.  When I see people suffering from terminal illness or the war and destruction that is gpoing on it the world I sometimes even question that.  That's just my opinion .  religion is so personal to each and everyone of us that it is always a heated discussion.  We all need to be accepted of each other.