Is there a GOD? - ding! ding! ding ding geeeeet reaaaaaady toooooo rummmmble!!!!

[Hemodoc]

I think Hemodoc is right.  (Gosh).  Read back over his posts and he is not actually saying we have to believe everything he says - just that this is the reason he does.  Fair enough.  I still love that we can have this conversation - I wish more people with other views would put them down too - but I think they just can't be bothered with the repercussion.  I do cringe though Rerun when you tell people they are going to hell - I just can't understand how you think that's ok - it's not up to us to tell people that surely?  Can't you see how that is more likely to turn someone away from God?

Thanks Hanify, we have finally completely agreed on the issue that we should be able to state our beliefs without repercussion or insulting and demeaning comments on that position.

May God bless,

Hemodoc

Please feel free to PM me Hanify if you have any questions ever on biblical issues whether for or against the Bible.  I have read the Bible through and through  over 2 dozen times, 6 times in the last year alone so it is my favorite topic by far.  Once again, since answering honestly questions of the Bible is always so contentious, a PM may be the best way to discuss some of these issues in the future.  God bless.

[willowtreewren]

"With your belief you have EVERYTHING to lose. If you are wrong you will go to hell, If you are right then you have lost nothing. But in my belief I have everything to gain, If I am correct I have a paradise to look forward to when I die, if I am wrong then I have lost NOTHING, I will simple cease to exist and be void. Think about it for a second. If there is a GOD (which obviously I believe there is) then by you not having faith, and believing in evolution then you are basically denouncing GOD and therefor forsaking him. Which will not allow you to enter the kingdom of heaven."

On the contrary, I would be losing the core of my being, my integrity, indeed, even my happiness for the concept of heaven as expressed in the Bible is not that appealing to me. I don't want to live this precious life that I have thinking that it is merely a dress rehearsal for an eternity without a body. Indeed, I would lose the reason to continue living. Pascal's wager only makes sense from the viewpoint of one who believes in heaven. I don't, and I certainly don't want to take up that shallow bet, destroying my peace of mind and hurling myself into a life of guilt and misery. Nope, to each his own.

Petey and Jean, you are so sweet.

Aleta

[Ken Shelmerdine]

I keep hearing the word 'Hell' mentioned on this thread and I find it incredible that some Christians still believe in its existence. If we take the premise that christians take there beliefs from the teachings of the bible scriptures then it must be made clear that there is nothing contained in those scriptures which describes any kind of consciousness after death which involved permanent torment.

The word often sited is 'Hades` which translated from ancient Hebrew means the grave or tomb or any place where the dead are interned. Another word often appears called 'Gehenna' also mistranslated to mean Hell. In fact Gehenna was a public garbage dump just outside the walls of Jerusalem where the poor and destitute were buried where there were no funds for a funeral.

Also the old testament Hebrews never believed any conscious life after death heaven hell or otherwise and neither does Judaism to this day. The early christians of the Greek New testament scriptures believed that they were living in the last times and that during their lifetime Christ would return to rule the world so as the word eternal implies (without interuption eg. death) they would never experience death and therefor live eternally which of course did not happen,

The idea of life after death was invented by the then tyrannical catholic church and the Spanish Inquisition in the middle ages using the concept of 'Hell' mistranslated from the bible in the way described above to scare the sh't out of people they sought to control.   

[monrein]

I've been reading this thread with a certain amount of consternation and feel no need or desire whatsoever to declare my own personal beliefs on the existence of God.  The topic is complex and many spend years debating and studying the Bible, both the OT and the NT, the Koran, the Upanishads and so on in their quest for understanding and for ways of bolstering their faith.   Can people even agree on the definition of "God"? 
 Some people convert from one religion to another, some reaffirm their faith in the religion of their parents or of their community.  Very few study all of the major world religions in depth and then choose the one that convinces them best in their quest for the existence of GOD.
Just as there exists on earth a variety of languages in which to communicate our thoughts, a variety of physical attributes such as skin colour to serve us best depending on the geography we inhabit, a variety of creatures that each have a contribution to make to a local ecology, a variety of landscapes which provide variously for their inhabitants, a wide variety of innate talents and abilities, is it not just possible that this "God" of which we speak so strongly might speak to different people in different ways.
 Many rivers arrive eventually at the sea, some quietly, some more spectacularly but the oceans consist of water from a wide variety of streams.  Why would God, I wonder, present most things in such diversity yet reduce the judgment of what constitutes the worthiness of a life to only ONE single choice?  I have no idea what will happen to me after I die, the only thing I know for certain is that I will die.  Until then I hope to continue seeking a way to live peacefully with others and with myself, to try to listen openly to others and to respect those who may differ in their conclusions but who also continue to search or indeed who have searched and have found sufficient certainty to ensure personal peace of mind.  I am grateful for the  concern of those who worry about the eventual destination of my "soul" as I take this a sign of caring but the answers to the eternal questions posed by the mystery of what happens after death remain, in my view, deeply personal and in the end one has to convince oneself and, perhaps more importantly, live with oneself. 

[dwcrawford]

I deleted the contents of my last post here (which now reads "asdf")  because if offended the most important person I know.  We almost had a fight over it.  Thank "good" it made a closer understanding instead.  Just so as to not cause more confusion, my friend and I are polar opposite on the topic of "good" or "evil".  I know Rerun approved and the intention was to bring the discussion down to a friendlier level.  I'm so "passive aggressive" though, that often my message gets obscured. 

Anyway, I'd like to leave you all with a quote:

"Can't you kids all just get alone?"
Olivia (my mom)

[Hemodoc]

"With your belief you have EVERYTHING to lose. If you are wrong you will go to hell, If you are right then you have lost nothing. But in my belief I have everything to gain, If I am correct I have a paradise to look forward to when I die, if I am wrong then I have lost NOTHING, I will simple cease to exist and be void. Think about it for a second. If there is a GOD (which obviously I believe there is) then by you not having faith, and believing in evolution then you are basically denouncing GOD and therefor forsaking him. Which will not allow you to enter the kingdom of heaven."

On the contrary, I would be losing the core of my being, my integrity, indeed, even my happiness for the concept of heaven as expressed in the Bible is not that appealing to me. I don't want to live this precious life that I have thinking that it is merely a dress rehearsal for an eternity without a body. Indeed, I would lose the reason to continue living. Pascal's wager only makes sense from the viewpoint of one who believes in heaven. I don't, and I certainly don't want to take up that shallow bet, destroying my peace of mind and hurling myself into a life of guilt and misery. Nope, to each his own.

Petey and Jean, you are so sweet.

Aleta

Dear Aleta, thank you for your reasons on why you don't believe.  If i may correct a misunderstanding on heaven that you spoke of. First, in heaven we have a new incorruptible, immortal body with no sorrow, no more tears and no more pain or sickness.  There are multiple references to that throughout the Bible.

As far as living with guilt and misery, you must understand that the greatest joy and hope in my life is the love and joy that Jesus gives all believers.  You have to understand that He has forgiven us of all of our sins and in fact, He won't remember any of them.  I don't know anyone in this life that has got to a ripe old age that does not have regrets.  Knowing that Jesus has forgiven us of those sins is actually freeing us of our own guilt and misery giving us hope instead.  As Epoman stated, he would have "offed" himself a long time before if he did not have the hope of Christ in his heart.  I would simply offer that your impression of a Christian life is far from what my life as a believer is. I have given up nothing, I have gained everything including joy and peace and life abundantly here on this earth now.  It is God's joy to give us eternal life in an immortal body.  The question comes back to a simply fact of contention, is the Bible true or not true.  That is why I have placed the simple challenge of the crucifixion in the OT.  How did it get there, why and what does it mean?

[Hemodoc]

I keep hearing the word 'Hell' mentioned on this thread and I find it incredible that some Christians still believe in its existence. If we take the premise that christians take there beliefs from the teachings of the bible scriptures then it must be made clear that there is nothing contained in those scriptures which describes any kind of consciousness after death which involved permanent torment.

The word often sited is 'Hades` which translated from ancient Hebrew means the grave or tomb or any place where the dead are interned. Another word often appears called 'Gehenna' also mistranslated to mean Hell. In fact Gehenna was a public garbage dump just outside the walls of Jerusalem where the poor and destitute were buried where there were no funds for a funeral.

Also the old testament Hebrews never believed any conscious life after death heaven hell or otherwise and neither does Judaism to this day. The early christians of the Greek New testament scriptures believed that they were living in the last times and that during their lifetime Christ would return to rule the world so as the word eternal implies (without interuption eg. death) they would never experience death and therefor live eternally which of course did not happen,

The idea of life after death was invented by the then tyrannical catholic church and the Spanish Inquisition in the middle ages using the concept of 'Hell' mistranslated from the bible in the way described above to scare the sh't out of people they sought to control.

Dear Ken,  I won't get into a long point for point discussion of your many contentions here but say that they are all not factually true.

I will challenge you with a simple question: If there is no hell, no place of eternal separation from God, then why did Jesus go to the cross?  What did His save us from?  Jesus Himself spoke of hell more than He spoke of heaven.  It is a real place just as heaven is a real place and it was not the Catholic church that invented this.  If hell is only the grave as you assert, and if there is no existence after death as many also assert, then where did the references to burning in torment throughout the entire Bible come from?  It is the reason that Jesus came to redeem us from an eternity of separation from God.  Once again, the importance of the cross.  Once again, the importance of the OT references to the death on the cross.  I come back full circle again to the challenge of the cross.  Your theology of hell simply does not fit with the story of Jesus dying on the cross.  What was the purpose of Jesus dying on the cross if there is no hell?

[-Lady Noir-]

There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?

- Richard Dawkins.

[Hemodoc]

I've been reading this thread with a certain amount of consternation and feel no need or desire whatsoever to declare my own personal beliefs on the existence of God.  The topic is complex and many spend years debating and studying the Bible, both the OT and the NT, the Koran, the Upanishads and so on in their quest for understanding and for ways of bolstering their faith.   Can people even agree on the definition of "God"? 
 Some people convert from one religion to another, some reaffirm their faith in the religion of their parents or of their community.  Very few study all of the major world religions in depth and then choose the one that convinces them best in their quest for the existence of GOD.
Just as there exists on earth a variety of languages in which to communicate our thoughts, a variety of physical attributes such as skin colour to serve us best depending on the geography we inhabit, a variety of creatures that each have a contribution to make to a local ecology, a variety of landscapes which provide variously for their inhabitants, a wide variety of innate talents and abilities, is it not just possible that this "God" of which we speak so strongly might speak to different people in different ways.
 Many rivers arrive eventually at the sea, some quietly, some more spectacularly but the oceans consist of water from a wide variety of streams.  Why would God, I wonder, present most things in such diversity yet reduce the judgment of what constitutes the worthiness of a life to only ONE single choice?  I have no idea what will happen to me after I die, the only thing I know for certain is that I will die.  Until then I hope to continue seeking a way to live peacefully with others and with myself, to try to listen openly to others and to respect those who may differ in their conclusions but who also continue to search or indeed who have searched and have found sufficient certainty to ensure personal peace of mind.  I am grateful for the  concern of those who worry about the eventual destination of my "soul" as I take this a sign of caring but the answers to the eternal questions posed by the mystery of what happens after death remain, in my view, deeply personal and in the end one has to convince oneself and, perhaps more importantly, live with oneself.

Dear Monrein, as a person that searched through many philosophies and spiritual issues including the eastern religions, in fact, my first wife is Vietnamese and we were married in a Buddhist wedding, it was not until I was confronted with the issues of OT Scripture fulfilled in the NT by another doctor I worked with that I really began to evaluate whether the Bible is what it says it is.  One of the issues that many bring up is how can someone be expected to know about Jesus if they never heard of Him.  I believe that question, which I know you didn't bring up, is due to a lack of knowledge of how God speaks to each and every person born on this earth.  A very interesting set of Scriptures in found in Job talking about how God speaks to man, but man does not understand.  Perhaps we need to learn to hear the voice of God in our lives.  I truly believe that He does come and knock on every man's door as Jesus tells us in Revelation 3:20.

Job 33:14: For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.
15: In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;
16: Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,
17: That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man.
18: He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.
19: He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain:
20: So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat.
21: His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen; and his bones that were not seen stick out.
22: Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.
23: If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness:
24: Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.
25: His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:
26: He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.
27: He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not;
28: He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
29: Lo, all these things worketh God oftentimes with man,
30: To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living. 

[rocker]

Oh, what a deliciously delightful thread this is!   

So many things I could address...Hemodoc provides so many points to refute!

Let's start with Pascal's Wager (that is the story about "If you believe and it's false, you've lost nothing, but if you don't believe and it's true, you've lost eternity").  It suffers from one giant, gaping logical flaw - it assumes there is only one religion.  The "choice" is not between Jesus and atheism - it is between any hundreds of religions.

I put the question to you - what if it turns out the Buddhists (or substitute religion of choice here) are correct?  If you don't believe in Buddhism, you've lost any chance of reaching Nirvana...

If I were God, I don't think I'd be very impressed with a "follower" who only "believed" in me as a bet.

Also, Hemodoc seems most impressed by the prophecies regarding the crucifixion in the OT. He quotes the "wounds in his hands" verses extensively. First off, as a doctor, think about the anatomy of the hand and the arm.  Romans did not crucify through the hand, as in the vast majority of cases, the hand is not structurally strong enough to support nearly the entire weight of the body on a nail driven through it.  The wrists, however, are that strong.  And that is why the Romans crucified by driving nails through the wrists (though that was only for the most heinous of offenders, most criminals were simply tied to a cross by the wrists and ankles).  The wrists will support such weight.

Sure, the Bible says he was nailed through the hand.  But there are no eyewitness accounts in the Bible - the chronology doesn't fit.

I offer you a second explanation for the close agreement between the crucifixion story and the prophecies.  The Jesus story was written to fulfill as many prophecies as possible.  Remember, we have no eyewitness accounts from the time.

Also, you stereotype badly when you assume that anyone who simply reads the Bible will agree with you.  I have read the Bible cover-to-cover more than once, and Biblical scholarship is still a hobby I indulge from time to time.  And I do not agree with your conclusions.  What if I told you that I was certain that you had not read the Bible, because if you had, you would reach the same conclusions I did?  I wager you would find that offensive.

For the record, I grew up a "born again" Christian, and I am now an atheist.  I cannot possibly know if there is a "higher power" in the universe.  But I am quite certain that if there is, no human religion has gotten it right.

[monrein]

Dear Hemodoc
I am fully convinced, by all that you have posted, that you have carefully read and are personally fully convinced by all that you have found in the Bible to support the Christian message of redemption through Christ.  I do not question or doubt the detours that you have taken through Buddhism or other philosophies in order to arrive at your convictions.  I agree that man often may not understand or hear "God" and there is certainly ample proof of man's evil in the world, including of course all that has been done in the name of God and religion.  I note also man's frequent and profound disrespect for the world around us and even for the fragile yet brilliantly resilient human body in which we each individually reside.
However,  I struggle continually with absolutism and certainty of all kinds, not just in the matter of faith,  and continue to feel (not to know, but simply to have an inkling) that God may well speak and be heard in a variety of ways.  The world that I see around me contains many colours and even shades of each of these, not just black or white so while I admire the concern of those Christians who seek to show their understanding of God's intentions to others who may not have been listening or reading closely enough and so risk eternal damnation for themselves, may I be so bold as to say, that even if I agree with each and every biblical point that you put forth I would still not be sure that I had reached the one and only understanding that would hold universally true for every person on earth.  I am in no hurry to leave the world as I find it a fascinating and wondrous place, despite it's contradictions and dichotomies, but neither am I afraid to die and find out what happens, or in fact face nothingness as some believe,  once I no longer exist in my current physical dimension .  We are inherently imperfect and that may extend also to our deepest convictions but yet we continue as a species to discuss and grapple with issues of faith and the meaning of life.  I celebrate with you the peace that you have found in your quest for faith and the meaning that it provides you.   

[del]

I deleted the contents of my last post here (which now reads "asdf")  because if offended the most important person I know.  We almost had a fight over it.  Thank "good" it made a closer understanding instead.  Just so as to not cause more confusion, my friend and I are polar opposite on the topic of "good" or "evil".  I know Rerun approved and the intention was to bring the discussion down to a friendlier level.  I'm so "passive aggressive" though, that often my message gets obscured. 

Anyway, I'd like to leave you all with a quote:

"Can't you kids all just get alone?"
Olivia (my mom)

I like that quote, Dan!!!  Just because we have different views on the world and the hereafter doesn't mean we can't get along.

Monrein, I like your view on things . It is very similar to mine.   What if the buddhists, hindus, muslims or any other religion is right?? We really have no proof of what is right.  We can just study writings and try to interpret them as best we can and that often leaves to many different interpretations.

Hemodoc, I see your point of giving the reasons why you chose your belief. We all have our own personal reasons for our beliefs and our questions about things.

Rerun I understand your view as well.

This thread continues to be very interesting!!

[Hemodoc]

Oh, what a deliciously delightful thread this is!   

So many things I could address...Hemodoc provides so many points to refute!

Let's start with Pascal's Wager (that is the story about "If you believe and it's false, you've lost nothing, but if you don't believe and it's true, you've lost eternity").  It suffers from one giant, gaping logical flaw - it assumes there is only one religion.  The "choice" is not between Jesus and atheism - it is between any hundreds of religions.

I put the question to you - what if it turns out the Buddhists (or substitute religion of choice here) are correct?  If you don't believe in Buddhism, you've lost any chance of reaching Nirvana...

If I were God, I don't think I'd be very impressed with a "follower" who only "believed" in me as a bet.

Also, Hemodoc seems most impressed by the prophecies regarding the crucifixion in the OT. He quotes the "wounds in his hands" verses extensively. First off, as a doctor, think about the anatomy of the hand and the arm.  Romans did not crucify through the hand, as in the vast majority of cases, the hand is not structurally strong enough to support nearly the entire weight of the body on a nail driven through it.  The wrists, however, are that strong.  And that is why the Romans crucified by driving nails through the wrists (though that was only for the most heinous of offenders, most criminals were simply tied to a cross by the wrists and ankles).  The wrists will support such weight.

Sure, the Bible says he was nailed through the hand.  But there are no eyewitness accounts in the Bible - the chronology doesn't fit.

I offer you a second explanation for the close agreement between the crucifixion story and the prophecies.  The Jesus story was written to fulfill as many prophecies as possible.  Remember, we have no eyewitness accounts from the time.

Also, you stereotype badly when you assume that anyone who simply reads the Bible will agree with you.  I have read the Bible cover-to-cover more than once, and Biblical scholarship is still a hobby I indulge from time to time.  And I do not agree with your conclusions.  What if I told you that I was certain that you had not read the Bible, because if you had, you would reach the same conclusions I did?  I wager you would find that offensive.

For the record, I grew up a "born again" Christian, and I am now an atheist.  I cannot possibly know if there is a "higher power" in the universe.  But I am quite certain that if there is, no human religion has gotten it right.

Dear Rocker,

Thank you for the reply.  Once again, I will not go point for point since I don't believe that was the intent of Epoman's thread which I am trying to stay focused to as I am sure he would want us to do, or start a new thread.  I am not in the least a Bible scholar, I am instead someone that believes its truth and has a love and joy of reading the Bible which I try to do on a daily basis.  I have never stated that if you read the Bible you will believe as I do. Please do not put words in my mouth I have not spoken.  I have stated that most people, not all, that criticize the Bible have never read it.  That has held up in many ways right here on this thread with several people not even willing to read the few  portions of Scripture I presented as part of the proof of why I believe that there is a God.  So, I do not in the least find it offensive if you do not think talk or act in a manner that I would hope you would.  I am saddened, but in no manner offended.


As far as Buddhism, I not only dabbled in it, I lived in with a devout, devout Buddhist wife and family.  I will leave that episode of my life alone only to conclude that I didn't find the answers with them.  In fact, the Buddhist priest at our wedding would not even look upon me, kept his eyes closed the entire ceremony spoken completely in Vietnamese because of the shame of me marrying a Vietnamese girl.  That was not in the least a good start to my exploration of Buddhism and it only got worse from that starting point.  To make a long answer short, I will pass on any further exploration of Buddhism thank you.

Now, I will take issue with your statement that there were no eyewitnesses of the crucifixion.  In your studies of the Bible it appears that you have overlooked quite a few references.  Let me give you two for sake of a focussed argument:

John 19:32: Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33: But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
34: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
35: And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. . . .

John 21:20: Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
21: Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22: Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23: Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
24: This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

So, the first eyewitness testimony I will speak of is John the apostle in his own words.  Second is that recorded by Paul the apostle:

I Corinthians 15:   1: Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2: By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3: For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4: And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7: After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8: And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9: For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Paul tells us a very important piece of information with the 500 witnesses that saw his resurrection confirm.  A simple example, if I told you that JFK was killed by a man from the grassy knoll with a bow and arrow, you would state correctly, that is not true, we have hundreds of witnesses that he died from at least two gunshots.  In fact, nearly 50 years later, there are literally millions of people alive today that remember the images on TV and can tell you exactly where they were when they heard that Kennedy was assassinated.  I am one of those that remembers exactly that event even though I was only 5 at the time.  With all of the enemies of the Christians from day one, it would be impossible to spread such a lie if it were not true and witnessed by friend and foe alike.  I you choose to not believe the reports, that is fine, but that was also prophesied as well:

Isaiah 53:    1: Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2: For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3: He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4: Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5: But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6: All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7: He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8: He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9: And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10: Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11: He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12: Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

So, once again, back to the simple verses and the simple question I put forth several days ago: how is it possible that the crucifixion is stated in the OT hundreds of years before it happened?  It is certainly not evidence that I could ignore especially knowing that we have extant copies of the Isaiah scroll written on copper leaflets in the Dead Sea Scroll collection from 200 BC that is the same scroll that we have today through other sources.  That in itself is truly remarkable.  So without getting into a convoluted discussion on the authenticity of the Bible nor the gospels,  there is much evidence that the story is indeed true.  In fact, simply focussing on the story of Jesus on the cross is powerful theology and powerful evidence all by itself.  It appears to be so as part of God's plan. 

So, following the example of Epoman who started this thread, this is in part what I believe and why in part I believe that there is a God.

[Hemodoc]

I deleted the contents of my last post here (which now reads "asdf")  because if offended the most important person I know.  We almost had a fight over it.  Thank "good" it made a closer understanding instead.  Just so as to not cause more confusion, my friend and I are polar opposite on the topic of "good" or "evil".  I know Rerun approved and the intention was to bring the discussion down to a friendlier level.  I'm so "passive aggressive" though, that often my message gets obscured. 

Anyway, I'd like to leave you all with a quote:

"Can't you kids all just get alone?"
Olivia (my mom)

I like that quote, Dan!!!  Just because we have different views on the world and the hereafter doesn't mean we can't get along.

Monrein, I like your view on things . It is very similar to mine.   What if the buddhists, hindus, muslims or any other religion is right?? We really have no proof of what is right.  We can just study writings and try to interpret them as best we can and that often leaves to many different interpretations.

Hemodoc, I see your point of giving the reasons why you chose your belief. We all have our own personal reasons for our beliefs and our questions about things.

Rerun I understand your view as well.

This thread continues to be very interesting!!

Dear Del,  what a beautiful sentiment and in the spirit of open discussion among people who do not necessarily agree, but are able to discuss these issues in a mature and sensitive manner.  That is what i gathered when I went back and read all of the earlier posts from Epoman.  Goofynia also chimed in in her post that stated that this thread would remain open.  Thank you, your post is a breath of fresh air.

[Hemodoc]

Dear Hemodoc
I am fully convinced, by all that you have posted, that you have carefully read and are personally fully convinced by all that you have found in the Bible to support the Christian message of redemption through Christ.  I do not question or doubt the detours that you have taken through Buddhism or other philosophies in order to arrive at your convictions.  I agree that man often may not understand or hear "God" and there is certainly ample proof of man's evil in the world, including of course all that has been done in the name of God and religion.  I note also man's frequent and profound disrespect for the world around us and even for the fragile yet brilliantly resilient human body in which we each individually reside.
However,  I struggle continually with absolutism and certainty of all kinds, not just in the matter of faith,  and continue to feel (not to know, but simply to have an inkling) that God may well speak and be heard in a variety of ways.  The world that I see around me contains many colours and even shades of each of these, not just black or white so while I admire the concern of those Christians who seek to show their understanding of God's intentions to others who may not have been listening or reading closely enough and so risk eternal damnation for themselves, may I be so bold as to say, that even if I agree with each and every biblical point that you put forth I would still not be sure that I had reached the one and only understanding that would hold universally true for every person on earth.  I am in no hurry to leave the world as I find it a fascinating and wondrous place, despite it's contradictions and dichotomies, but neither am I afraid to die and find out what happens, or in fact face nothingness as some believe,  once I no longer exist in my current physical dimension .  We are inherently imperfect and that may extend also to our deepest convictions but yet we continue as a species to discuss and grapple with issues of faith and the meaning of life.  I celebrate with you the peace that you have found in your quest for faith and the meaning that it provides you.

Dear Monrein, thank you for your thoughtful comments.  You are correct that I do have a certainty of my faith, but it did not come blindly.  Without going into details, I had many doubts as I started to look into the evidence from the Bible, in fact, many of the same doubts that others have expressed in the last few days.  Let me leave it simply that without expressing the specific doubts I had about the Bible to any person alive in this world, not even one, the Lord on the other hand presented me with evidence and Bible Scripture one day that melted that doubt in a very specific manner.  It was the day i became born again and began my walk with the Lord.  If I could, let me give you a simple example from the Bible of a man that first began to hear the voice of God as a young child.  It really does illustrate in a profound sense what it means to be born again, or simply put, begin to hear the voice of God.  That is really what it means to be born again in a nutshell.  The story is that of the prophet and judge Samuel:

I Samuel 3:1: And the child Samuel ministered unto the LORD before Eli. And the word of the LORD was precious in those days; there was no open vision.
2: And it came to pass at that time, when Eli was laid down in his place, and his eyes began to wax dim, that he could not see;
3: And ere the lamp of God went out in the temple of the LORD, where the ark of God was, and Samuel was laid down to sleep;
4: That the LORD called Samuel: and he answered, Here am I.
5: And he ran unto Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou calledst me. And he said, I called not; lie down again. And he went and lay down.
6: And the LORD called yet again, Samuel. And Samuel arose and went to Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou didst call me. And he answered, I called not, my son; lie down again.
7: Now Samuel did not yet know the LORD, neither was the word of the LORD yet revealed unto him.
8: And the LORD called Samuel again the third time. And he arose and went to Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou didst call me. And Eli perceived that the LORD had called the child.
9: Therefore Eli said unto Samuel, Go, lie down: and it shall be, if he call thee, that thou shalt say, Speak, LORD; for thy servant heareth. So Samuel went and lay down in his place.
10: And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

Many so called Bible scholars could pontificate on what it means to be born again, but in a very simple and wonderful story, Samuel demonstrates the exact process and learning to have ears to hear and eyes to see.  How many times in His preaching did Jesus use this phrase.  So, getting back to the entire point of this thread: Is there a God? started by Epoman who testified that he believed in the God of the Bible, this is truly a great example of God calling and finally, finally, finally, Samuel heard his voiced and was saved.  It is perhaps the best example I know to explain my faith and why and how I believe in the God of the Bible.  I hope this clarifies the certainty that I and Rerun and Razman and Epoman as well as several others that I can't give account of off the top of my head, that all put forth their own personal testimony of why they believe that there is a Go on this thread over the last 4 years.

[Mimi]

Dear Hemodoc, there is a saying that the New Testament is the golden thread that runs through the Old Testament.  In OT days God selected certain men to be His prophets and He talked to them and instructed them about the future so they in turn could teach the people of their time the whole story and what was to come.  I know you've heard of the Jesus Freaks, well I am one of them.  I was born into a Christian family and I was drug to Sunday School, and I was drug to church and I was drug to Wednesday night prayer meeting and I will forever be indebted to my parents for guiding me to Jesus.
I am sorry that no one bothered to answer your question, but Jesus said that if we followed Him we would be despised and persecuted, so it is obvious that He was right.  Do I believe there is a God?  No, I know there is a God and his Son and His Holy Spirit.
God bless you Hemodoc and keep up the good work.

Love, Mimi     

[RichardMEL]

I suppose I would call myself half agnostic/half atheist, and I quite agree with Rocker's last statement:

I cannot possibly know if there is a "higher power" in the universe.  But I am quite certain that if there is, no human religion has gotten it right.

I have no proof one way or the other that there's a higher being, or beings (for our Hindu friends), be it God(s), superpowered aliens, or whatever. By the same token, there's no proof that there isn't a God(s) out there. If proof arrives then I'm more than happy to submit, though submit is the wrong word, because I believe strongly in freedom of thought and belief, and I wouldn't want to exactly be told to think a particular way, but I certainly would be more open to subscribing to a particular faith if some proof existed. And by proof I do not mean the bible, or the Koran or some other holy book written by men. I suppose I mean the second coming, or whathave you.

My bigger issue is more to do with organised religion of ANY kind. To me it seems that half the time organised churches, in the way they preach their beliefs tend to undermine the principles their religions stand for. For example, how many wars have been waged in the name of religion - yet most religions that I know of claim to preach tolerance of others, "love thy neighbor" and variations thereof... I also dislike having some person, or organisation, telling me that I *should* think a certain way, and if I don't that somehow I'm a bad person for it. This isn't just about relgiion - it's a general issue.. be about smoking, or drugs, or sex, or whatever... I don't want someone else pushing their views in my face and making out that if I think differently (ie: for myself) that I'm a bad person, or somehow missing out. Sure, I'm not perfect and I am sure many of my ideas and personal beliefs aren't ideal, but they're *mine*

By the same token I am not going to tell any other person here, or anywhere else, that what they believe is wrong, or bad - that would be exactly the thing I loathe. I personally don't agree with any kind of fundamentalist belief (ie: taken to extremes) but I will support someone's right to believe in it.

The only time I will say something or direct my opinion is if belief or ideas or whatever are being pushed on someone else without their consent.

I don't care what adults do and believe if it's not hurting anyone but if people are being hurt, or dragged around or kept against their will, or subjugated in some way then I do not like that.. but that is a general principle. Note that I see this as being different from some religions (eg: Islam) where women cover up and have an (apparently) servile role in that culture - in general, from what I have seen, a lot of Islamic women are more than content/happy with their lives and beliefs and I have no issue with that.

I guess in a nutshell my feelings on religion, in general are, that I am not a believer myself but I support anyone's right to believe whatever they like as long as it doesn't hurt others. As I said above I believe a lot of the organised churches have that idea kind of botched in one way or another, and of course extreemist elements(of any religion) take things over the top and skew things to support their particular viewpoint which may bear little in common with the mainstream of their particular religion.. and of course we have seen the end result of the most extreme of fundamentalist viewpoints (ie: terrorism-usually against innocents, some of the same religion!)

I am sure I will get flamed for this post, but it's just how I feel. Like I said I have no problem with anything anyone else believes and quite happy to hear about it even if I personally disagree... that's what makes the world go around.

[Hanify]

Sadly many people over the years in various churches have used Christianity and the bible as a way to overpower and subjugate their people.  I am a Roman Catholic and am well aware of my church's awful role in this.  Having said that though - I see day to day people who do amazing things all the time and are church goers.  I take the bits that suit me to be honest - and I ignore the silly stuff that (usually the Pope) men invent.  Exactly what I do with the bible too - there's lots of silly stuff in there that is just not relevant anymore.  Luckily - God and I think exactly the same way on pretty much everything!!

[Ken Shelmerdine]

Dear Ken,  I won't get into a long point for point discussion of your many contentions here but say that they are all not factually true.

I will challenge you with a simple question: If there is no hell, no place of eternal separation from God, then why did Jesus go to the cross?  What did His save us from?  Jesus Himself spoke of hell more than He spoke of heaven.  It is a real place just as heaven is a real place and it was not the Catholic church that invented this.  If hell is only the grave as you assert, and if there is no existence after death as many also assert, then where did the references to burning in torment throughout the entire Bible come from?  It is the reason that Jesus came to redeem us from an eternity of separation from God.  Once again, the importance of the cross.  Once again, the importance of the OT references to the death on the cross.  I come back full circle again to the challenge of the cross.  Your theology of hell simply does not fit with the story of Jesus dying on the cross.  What was the purpose of Jesus dying on the cross if there is no hell?

Hemodoc my point was that Hell or Hades meant separation from god. But not separation in conscious torment but that all consciousness ceases to exist, the person ceases to exist.

The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all ... for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Hades (the grave), the place to which you are going.
Ecclesiastes 9: 5, 10

The untranslated Hebrew and Greek scripture which formed the old and new testaments of the bible often warns sinners that they will burn not in hell but in Gehenna (again misleadingly translated as hell by bible scholars of the medieval catholic church. Its one thing to be threatened by separation from God in complete unconscious death but then quite another at the thought of  conscious torture and eternal torment. 

Gehenna  was a stinking garbage dump and was frequently set on fire with the bodies of criminals and the poorest of the Jews. This has since been subverted to to portray the eternal fire of the dammed. In biblical theology it is a complete perversion of it's original meaning and context of the time. The idea of an immortal soul does not appear anywhere in the in either the old or new testament. Ask any devout follower of Judaism who like Christians believe the Old testament as being the true word of God and they will tell you there is no belief in their religion of an immortal soul.

I repeat that the early Christian belief was that the dead would stay dead until they were  mortally resurrected on judgment day and the righteous would live eternally on this earth and the unrighteous would be separated from God by death and therefor cease to exist.

All proclamations of a spiritual life after death come long after bible canon by the established church which by then were teaching a totally corrupt version of bible Christianity using the religion as a means of political control. 



Edited: Fixed quote tag error - okarol/admin

[Ken Shelmerdine]

Can a moderator help me with the thrad above please. I'v got my quotes in the wrong places. Thanks 

[BigSky]

I For example, how many wars have been waged in the name of religion - yet most religions that I know of claim to preach tolerance of others, "love thy neighbor" and variations thereof...

How many wars have been waged that were not in the name of religion?

[Stoday]

The War of Jenkins' Ear springs to mind... 

[fc2821]

I For example, how many wars have been waged in the name of religion - yet most religions that I know of claim to preach tolerance of others, "love thy neighbor" and variations thereof...

How many wars have been waged that were not in the name of religion?

Probably as many as were in the name of various religions. It doesn't make it any more correct, whatever the excuse.  Though there are times when doing the right thing involves making violent choices.  This is unforunately how things are.

Which leads me to ask, what do you think Jesus would have said of all the killing in his name?  And, before you get your undies in an uproar, I am a Christan.  I am not criticizing Christianity, just asking people to stop and think for a minute. 

Yes, I said I was a Christan, and my eariler posts here were misinterpreted by some to believe I am not.  I am not asking this question to get people upset, or to argue. 

[Hemodoc]

I For example, how many wars have been waged in the name of religion - yet most religions that I know of claim to preach tolerance of others, "love thy neighbor" and variations thereof...

How many wars have been waged that were not in the name of religion?

Probably as many as were in the name of various religions. It doesn't make it any more correct, whatever the excuse.  Though there are times when doing the right thing involves making violent choices.  This is unforunately how things are.

Which leads me to ask, what do you think Jesus would have said of all the killing in his name?  And, before you get your undies in an uproar, I am a Christan.  I am not criticizing Christianity, just asking people to stop and think for a minute. 

Yes, I said I was a Christan, and my eariler posts here were misinterpreted by some to believe I am not.  I am not asking this question to get people upset, or to argue.

Wars are waged in the name of religion, but it is clear that any wars waged in the name of Jesus are waged against His teachings.  However, there are several religions where wars are waged in the name and command of their founders.  The NT sets a new order for all to follow.

Matthew 5:43: Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44: But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45: That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46: For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47: And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

[Hemodoc]

Dear Ken,  I won't get into a long point for point discussion of your many contentions here but say that they are all not factually true.

I will challenge you with a simple question: If there is no hell, no place of eternal separation from God, then why did Jesus go to the cross?  What did His save us from?  Jesus Himself spoke of hell more than He spoke of heaven.  It is a real place just as heaven is a real place and it was not the Catholic church that invented this.  If hell is only the grave as you assert, and if there is no existence after death as many also assert, then where did the references to burning in torment throughout the entire Bible come from?  It is the reason that Jesus came to redeem us from an eternity of separation from God.  Once again, the importance of the cross.  Once again, the importance of the OT references to the death on the cross.  I come back full circle again to the challenge of the cross.  Your theology of hell simply does not fit with the story of Jesus dying on the cross.  What was the purpose of Jesus dying on the cross if there is no hell?

Hemodoc my point was that Hell or Hades meant separation from god. But not separation in conscious torment but that all consciousness ceases to exist, the person ceases to exist.

The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all ... for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Hades (the grave), the place to which you are going.
Ecclesiastes 9: 5, 10

The untranslated Hebrew and Greek scripture which formed the old and new testaments of the bible often warns sinners that they will burn not in hell but in Gehenna (again misleadingly translated as hell by bible scholars of the medieval catholic church. Its one thing to be threatened by separation from God in complete unconscious death but then quite another at the thought of  conscious torture and eternal torment. 

Gehenna  was a stinking garbage dump and was frequently set on fire with the bodies of criminals and the poorest of the Jews. This has since been subverted to to portray the eternal fire of the dammed. In biblical theology it is a complete perversion of it's original meaning and context of the time. The idea of an immortal soul does not appear anywhere in the in either the old or new testament. Ask any devout follower of Judaism who like Christians believe the Old testament as being the true word of God and they will tell you there is no belief in their religion of an immortal soul.

I repeat that the early Christian belief was that the dead would stay dead until they were  mortally resurrected on judgment day and the righteous would live eternally on this earth and the unrighteous would be separated from God by death and therefor cease to exist.

All proclamations of a spiritual life after death come long after bible canon by the established church which by then were teaching a totally corrupt version of bible Christianity using the religion as a means of political control. 



Edited: Fixed quote tag error - okarol/admin

Dear Ken, this is a different called soul sleep put forth by Seventh Day Adventists and the Jehovah Witnesses.  Soul sleep is not an accepted Christian doctrine.  Since it is a total different subject, I won't go into a long discussion since few would even understand the controversy that you have brought up here.

Once again, if all Jesus saves us from is the grave by His death on the cross, then first of all, it didn't work since we shall all see the grave and secondly, why would He give His life for something with such minimal consequences with simply going into nothingness.  The simple fact from the Bible is that we are made in the image of God the Father, soul, God the Son, body, and God the Holy Spirit, spirit, giving us or body, soul and spirit.  The soul is eternal, that is why the Bible speaks of saving our soul in so many references.  That is why Jesus died on the cross, to save our eternal souls.  This is not catholic derived doctrine, but clearly from the bible.

I will simply answer your contentions on this off topic issue with a website I looked over this morning that has a very comprehensive review of this issue.  The issue of heaven and hell is well displayed throughout the entire Bible as a place of eternal torment for those that choose by free well separation from God.  It is not a place I would ever wish to see.

Here is a comprehensive review of soul sleep and the alleged translation errors you spoke of for anyone that wishes to explore the issue further.

http://crosscountry4jesus.com/index83.html