Is there a GOD? - ding! ding! ding ding geeeeet reaaaaaady toooooo rummmmble!!!!

[willowtreewren]

Del, I so agree with you.

Each religion has its own sacred texts that the adherents truly and fervently believe are the words of their own but differing gods. When I see religions fomenting hated and intolerance for those of different religions, I can't help but wonder at the "righteousness" or "rightness" of their claims.

Better by far, I think, to live graciously and peacefully with understanding, acceptance and even support of our differences. After all, the human family is richer for those differences.

And we are ALL part of the human family. I'll say it again and again, "The world is my country. To do good is my religion."

Here is to a peaceful and accepting New Year without borders and without hate.
Aleta

[dwcrawford]

I believe in a higher power.  I hope you kind of understood by my earliier  post what it  is.  We are neither sinners  nor saints but rather some good and some bad.
Now here this:  If I were the highest power  I would have had the wisdom  to allow the creation of food and heat  from  snot and dryer llint.  We'd never go hungry nor get cold.   

Excuse me.  Gotta go blow my nose  again.

[del]

I understand you Dan!!  I hate that so many people in the world have so little and are starving to death while we have abundance of everything.   

[Hemodoc]

Thank you del, dwcrawford, and willowtree.  Let me respond to one point.  The Bible makes some very outrageous claims such as Jesus is the way the truth and the life and no man comes to the Father but through Him.  It also claims that the Bible starting in the OT testifies of Jesus Christ.  Since this is a post asking the question whether there is a God, my entire posting the last couple of days has been in answer to that question.  Unlike any other religion or their books, there are hundreds of literal prophecies in the Bible that are a record of God's Son. When I preached in prison on Resurrection Sunday, on more than one occasion, I preached only from the Old Testament showing dozens of Scriptures describing the death, burial, and resurrection of the Messiah.

Once again, Psalm 22, Isaiah 53 and Zechariah 12:10 and 13:6 are very specific references.  For example,  "They looked upon me whom they pierced" They said unto me, what are those wounds in your hands, and he said those in which I got in the house of my friends."

If people wish to interpret this in an allegorical manner, or some other method, it is true that many do this.  On the other hand, simply reading through these verses such as listed above, I would suspect that people should at least wonder why they have such a correlation to the actual crucifixion itself.  Once again, is it just my interpretation, is it coincidence, is it contrivance or instead is it a message from our Creator leaving a record of His Son Jesus Christ as proof that there is a God?  I stay with my original intent of all my posts the last couple of days that there are OT prophecies testifying that there is a God in a written record that all can read and either accept or reject for themselves.  There is no other book that contains the claims and the evidence that the Bible does.  So, is the Bible true, or is it not?

So far,  I don't believe any of your posts have actually addressed the limited focus that I have placed in my posts on finding the story of the crucifixion in the OT.  What does it mean?  For myself, I find this simply amazing and there is much much more in like manner throughout the OT. Once again, if we are not sinners, then why did Christ die on the cross?  So, just keeping the focus on the OT stories of the crucifixion and the NT stories, is there a message from God in these writings?  If so, does that show that there is a God which is the subject of this thread?

I trust that all will have a happy and healthy new year.

God bless,  Hemodoc

[dwcrawford]

The bible is one reference for one specific religion and not written by god but by several different people at different times and translated many times.  Many contraditions appear in the bible not to mention those from AD to BC.  No denying it could be a valued "how to live"  manual. 

One reference I said.  I'd never  let a doctor, hemo or otherwise, treat me who had consider onlly one medical manual.

Hemo is right by saying certain facts must be accepted before a valid discussion can take place.  But EVERYONE must be willing to make concessions and consider other positions.  Not just the many interpretations that contradict or don't fit in with yours.  I'd ask everyone reading these  posts to consider who and what positions wish all the others peace and good will.  Read again.

Why the similarities in the gospels?  Simply.  One was written based on others.  Why the contradictions?  MMMM, interesting.

Everyone needs a specific force in their life.  May everyone find their one that clearly works for them.

[Hemodoc]

Dear dwcrawford, thank you for your reply, but once again, your response is outside of the limited question that I posed on the crucifixion OT and NT.  I will forego a discussion of the other extraneous issues other than to say that they are not factually correct.  For sake of discussion and keeping to the spirit of this thread, is there a God, I am challenging with the proposition that the validity of the OT accounts of the crucifixion over a thousand years before it occurred is a stirring message from God Himself.  Despite a plethora of posts denouncing the God of the Bible, none have yet addressed the narrow focus I have put forth.  How do we account for the OT stories of the crucifixion.  What do they mean?  Who fulfilled them?  Why are they written in the OT Bible?

For example, read Acts 8:26-38.  I would greatly appreciate a discussion on this limited focus.  How is it that Philip preached Christ Jesus to the Eunuch based on Isaiah chapter 53 written over 700 years earlier?

Jesus made the claim that He was the Son of God.  In His defense is the abundance of Scriptures prophesying about the Messiah and the specific time, the specific circumstances of His life.  Isaiah chapter 53 is just one focused Scripture that is an easy discussion point with both OT and NT references.  It is likewise specific to the title of this thread:  Is their a God?  My answer based on the abundance of Scripture is absolutely yes.  All of the other issues that you have discussed are completely outside of this narrow discussion.  Once again, how do you explain the plain truth that the crucifixion is prophesied in several places in the OT?  Is that proof for God?

Thank you.

[willowtreewren]

Once again, how do you explain the plain truth that the crucifixion is prophesied in several places in the OT?  Is that proof for God?

This is a logical fallacy. It is akin to saying that every once in a while psychics get their predictions right, so the right one makes them truly psychic.

It is also hindsight manipulations of statements to make them mean something that they may not have been intended. Fortune tellers are very good at both these kinds of trickery. First, they word their predictions to be interpreted in a variety of ways. Then in looking back at those predictions, they tweak the meaning to fit the outcome.

And Dan, I would question the use of the Bible as a guide to morality. The God of the OT and even some of the teachings of Jesus strike me as very immoral. Any of us could do better at producing a guide to morality.

I would think that a god who wanted his word to be a guideline for human behavior would be so explicit that there could be no differences of opinion about the meaning. That the Bible is so full of contradictions seems to be more indicative that it is nothing more than the writings of several folks built up over time. And at that, the Council of Nicaea - a group of humans - decided on which of these books to include and which to discard. So at the very least, it was people deciding what to consider sacred.

I will grant that there are many values in the Bible worth following. I find that true of many other books, though, too. But I can find nothing in the Bible that proves there is a god, let alone the god as described in the Bible.

Least you think that my life must be barren without a belief in a higher being, let me assure you that it isn't. And while I don't find it necessary to have a god in order to live happily and in service to my fellow humans. I realize that belief in a greater being makes life richer for some. And for some it makes life more fraught with woe.

Using the Bible as proof of the existence of the Christian god is on the same level as using the Koran as proof of the existence of the Islamic god.

I would like to be clear about something else. For me, being an atheist does not mean that I believe that there is no god. It means that I simply have not seen evidence of such. If compelling evidence were available, I would certainly be open to re-evaluating my position.

I haven't seen evidence for unicorns or fairies, either. So I suppose you could call me a a-unicornist, or an a-fairyist. But that would be kind of silly, wouldn't it? My point is that the term a-theist unfortunately carries lots of baggage that it shouldn't. I don't like the term "non-believer" either because I believe in many things.

And Hemodoc, please don't assume that I haven't read the Bible. The difference between us, though, is that reading the Bible solidifies your belief in its god, but reading the Bible makes me feel that even if the god described were real, I wouldn't want to know him, let alone worship him. We are different in that respect and I fully applaud that. While I disagree with you, I find your point of view very interesting.

Aleta

[dwcrawford]

I guess I didn't make it clear that my belief is not in a god but in a higher power I call the universe.  For one not to believe there is a high power we'd have to ignore famine, war, sickness, etc. and say they don't exist.  I'd certainly not let those things happen to me.  For us to ignore the force of good we'd have to say there is no beauty in nature or even human nature.  Doesn't matter what I believe, but you can't want a discussion based on bits of the Bible predetermined by you.  And I agree that this is a useless discussion.

However I would say I think you may have misinterrupred the original posters intend.  Notice the ding, ding dings and the get ready to rumble.  I don't know him, but that doesn't sound like a desire to search for an answer to who is god, but rather to start some caca.

You are right, Willow.  I suppose I was thinking that the ten commandments wouldn't be a bad set of life rules. 

[Hemodoc]

Dear Aleta, despite a long answer, you still haven't addressed the real contention I am postulating.  Acts chapter 8 contains a direct comparison of Isaiah 53 and the crucifixion of Jesus.  Psalm 22 is a quite interesting prophecy as well as that of Zechariah 12:10 and 13:6.

Psalm 22:1: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2: O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3: But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4: Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5: They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6: But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7: All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head saying,
8: He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9: But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10: I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11: Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12: Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13: They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14: I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15: My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16: For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17: I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18: They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19: But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20: Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21: Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22: I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23: Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24: For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25: My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26: The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27: All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28: For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.
29: All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30: A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31: They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.


Zechariah 12:10: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

13:6: And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
It is not psychic predictions, but very, very specific details.  Quite a bit different thing.  So far, this discussion has not in the least looked at the specifics of why I contend that these OT Scriptures foretell the crucifixion.  I disagree with your contention that this is trickery.  In fact, there have been several well written articles looking at the probabilities that these could have been written and fulfilled by chance alone. The statistical analysis of these events is quite compelling.  This is how we do science showing that events are either by chance or not by chance.

In any case, I am not debating morality or the other issues you brought up outside of this narrow focus but to simply state I do not agree with your assessment which is probably not surprising on my part.  We can however, look at the OT Scriptures and compare them to the NT story of the crucifixion and see how they compare.  The entire issue is are they vague writings subject to bias and interpretation as you and others contend or are they instead very specific details fulfilled completely at the cross.  In this, the Bible states plainly that they are a record and a witness of the divinity of Christ as the Son of God.  The Bible does indeed make this claim.  So, looking at the evidence, many including myself have come to the conclusion that the Bible is the true literal word of God.  In fact, God makes the claim that He will write down His purpose and then fulfill it. Example:

ISAIAH 46:9: Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10: Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Once again, this is the claim of the Bible. I did not write any of this and it is not my witness nor my contentions.  Simply put, is it true or not true.  I challenge all to read the entire text of the verses I have listed and answer that for yourselves.  David a thousand years before Christ spoke of the thirst, no broken bones, surrounded by those that hated Him and the actual words that they would speak as they mocked Him on the cross.  He also states, they pierced my hands and my feet.  Zechariah states that they shall look upon me whom they have pierced and will ask what are the wounds in thy hands. Isaiah 53 speaks of several specific aspects of the crucifixion:

Isaiah 53:1: Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2: For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3: He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4: Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5: But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6: All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7: He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8: He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9: And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10: Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11: He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12: Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

There is much theology and history in these Scriptures written 700 years before Christ by Isaiah.  Once again, the witness of God is greater than the witness of man:

I John 5:9: If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10: He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11: And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

So, once again, these are not my words, nor are they my challenges.  These are challenges from the Bible itself.  God states that He will speak of the things that are to come at the time of the end and in addition, He will bring it to pass.  "I have purposed it, I will also do it."  Focussing on the crucifixion through the OT prophets and then the historical record of these events in the NT is a profound testimony that was the basis for me believing that there is a God, and more specifically the God of the Bible.  There is no other book in the entire world with these claims and these proofs.  As Josh Mcdowell states, it is evidence that demands a verdict.  I would be very interested in what people think of the specific verses I have brought forth for discussion of things written hundreds of years before they were fulfilled.  So far no one has specifically replied to these issues or even acknowledged that they are written in the OT.  For sake of discussion, I will continue to keep the narrow focus I have started with on the OT witness to the NT crucifixion.  Debating the other issues in this forum is not likely to produce any agreement, so I will decline to engage in a larger debate of the other issues that many have brought forth

Once again, Epoman started this thread, is there a God?  My answer is an emphatic yes and in part, the verses above is how I came to that personal conclusion.  Hopefully we can move beyond whether these verses are even there to the more important discussion of why they are there and who really is speaking?

[Hemodoc]

Dear dwcrawford,  I have read through many parts of Epoman's statements and it is my conclusion that he did personally believe in God Himself.  With the very real prospect as a dialysis patient that this day could be our last day on this earth at any moment, it is actually a very important discussion to take place.  I believe Epoman simply knew in advance that people have very heated discussions on this question and that is why he wrote the title the way he did.

I believe that there is a God, specifically the God of the Bible based on my study and questioning of the writings in the OT and the NT.  If indeed the crucifixion of Jesus Christ is spoken of hundreds of years in advance of it happening including the purpose and result of His death on the cross, I believe it is evidence that demands a verdict just as Josh McDowell states in his many books and writings.  I didn't start this thread but I believe it was Epoman's intent for all to be able to openly discuss without insults or demoralizations our own personal beliefs and reasoning for our faith or lack thereof.  Again, I have presented a very narrowly focussed question for all to ponder.  If no one wishes to address these issues specifically, then I will consider that i have had my opportunity to answer a question started by Epoman himself and leave it at that.  I believe he would be pleased to allow us to continue to do this freely and without constraint.  Is that not the legacy that Bill "Epoman" Halcomb left for all of us?

[dwcrawford]

Dear Willowtreewren,
I am sure that no rational discussion can be had in here.  You have your belief in no God.  I truly respect you for it it.  I have my belief in everything in the universe  as my higher power.  I hope you respect me for it.  I also respect those Christian (not even excluding the born agains) and expecially those of the Jewish faith who have their beliefs and I admire them for it and congratulate them for it.   I refuse to even read lengthy posts that want to prove something based on the restrictions that they themselves put on the discussion.  I also refuse to accept verbage from any other cult like groups.  Victory has been declared.  Funny as I wasn't at war. 

Lets get out of here.  You have been validated by your good works.  Let me try and come up with something to make this all worthwhile. 
Sincerely, dw

[paris]

Epoman loved a good argument.   That is why he asked the question. He didn't expect anyone to change anothers beliefs but only to spark a debate.  Nothing on any side can ever be proven.  At some point, we agree to disagree and we respect each others thoughts on religion.  No one has to challenge what I believe --- I know what I know.       

I don't know why I ever post on this thread. It is an age old conversation that will never be resolved.  But, if one size fit all, life wouldn't be as rich.        

[del]

Epoman loved a good argument.   That is why he asked the question. He didn't expect anyone to change anothers beliefs but only to spark a debate.  Nothing on any side can ever be proven.  At some point, we agree to disagree and we respect each others thoughts on religion.  No one has to challenge what I believe --- I know what I know.       

I don't know why I ever post on this thread. It is an age old conversation that will never be resolved.  But, if one size fit all, life wouldn't be as rich.        

I agree with you paris. This conversation could continue and become very headed!!  But it will never be resolved. Each and every person is entitled to their beliefs and opinions.  That's what this site is all about!!  Epoman knew he was going to cause quite a stir with this topic!!  A good topic to stay away from is religion and politics - both can cause really bad feelings between people!!

[Rerun]

The devil will keep you from reading the word of God.  Fight him off and just pick up the Bible and read it.  You can read it through in one year.  Let's start today.... January 1, 2010. 

You can belong to the Lions, but that doesn't make you a Lion.  You can be brought up a Christian, but that doesn't make YOU a born again Christian until you ask Jesus into your heart and want a personal relationship with him.  I can't do it for you.

Hemodoc you are right on the mark.

[Hemodoc]

Dear dwcrawford, I do take umbrage that you associate my very limited area of discussion as cult like.  I also did not declare victory over anyone.  I simply put forth my own personal story of why I believe in God and the evidence for that belief.  You have on the other hand admitted you won't even read what I put forth.  Now that is a real open mind.  Thank you.

[dwcrawford]

Dear Hemoman,
If you listened you'd know that I have no strong religious views but rather I believe there is a power greater than myself.  And I'm willling to name that power anything that makes you and other's happy.
I am so happy for you people who have a structure relitious point of of view.  Still, I have taken umbrage at many of your posts not only here but I have to live with it.  Don't think I refered to you as a cult.  Read again:
It says any OTHER cult like group.  I can't explain what I mean yet this was written to Willow and she knows.  People have been banned for making such comments so I couldn't fully explain it.  I've said over and over again that I respect Christiany and Christians.  I think  I know what you believe.  I grew up Baptist.  I doubt either of us know what Epoman meant.  You also said that it was worth discussing only on the constraints you proposed.  Since I do not adhever to those constraints the discussion is then mute.  I would love to leave this on a basis of mutual respect and again, I offer my sincerest repect for your beliefs.
Daniel Wyrick Crawford

[Rerun]

If you want mutual respect why would you address him as "Hemoman" ........ Crawchevy?

[dwcrawford]

If you want to pretend to be relitious why would you tell a grieving man to let his daughter die?  I though relitious people had respect for all kinds of life.
If you respect others then why would you tell one of the best and nicest people on here that they were going to hell.
If you have respect others then why would you suggest that all people working in diallysiis units should be required to give kidneys.
And I am called Crawfish a lot.  Crawchevy doesn't offend me but makes little sense.
(oh, I just got it.  Like chevy for ford.  Very good and funny.)

[Jean]

HemoDoc, you are focusing on Jesus crucifixion, and that is not the point. The point is, his resurrection. If you saw the movie that Mel Gibson made, passions of the Christ, you saw what he went thru. First, no mere mortal could live thru that, secondly, no mere mortal could rise from the dead.Jesus calls for us to spread his Word, he does not call on us to tell others they will go to Hell. If you believe in Jesus and the bible, then you know what is required of you. I might gently suggest that you find a local church to attend services and a bible study so that you can truly understand what the bible is saying to you. If others do not believe, no amount of hell and brimfire will change their minds. And so doing is not up to you. Even Jesus would not speak to people like that. Gentleness was his nature. Just my   

[Hanify]

oooh oooh - have to get in on this one!  To be brutally honest Hemodoc, I haven't answered your actual questions about the bible and what it does or doesn't say because I just can't be bothered.  I honestly don't mean that rudely - I'm just too lazy to think that hard about it all.  To me faith is faith is faith, and it doesn't have to make sense to me, and I don't feel the need to prove it to anyone else.  I believe what I believe and that's that.  I think the bible is terribly underrated - it should be studied in all schools as an historical document.  So should the Koran and the Torah by the way.  They all have amazing stuff in them.  They also all have bits that are no longer relevant and absolutely ridiculous - but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be looked at.  And I didn't know Epoman, but from reading his posts I'm pretty sure he's somewhere laughing his head off at us all!!!

[Rerun]

If you want to pretend to be relitious why would you tell a grieving man to let his daughter die?  I though relitious people had respect for all kinds of life.
If you respect others then why would you tell one of the best and nicest people on here that they were going to hell.
If you have respect others then why would you suggest that all people working in diallysiis units should be required to give kidneys.
And I am called Crawfish a lot.  Crawchevy doesn't offend me but makes little sense.
(oh, I just got it.  Like chevy for ford.  Very good and funny.)

What is relitious?      Do you mean religious?  I'm a born again Christian, but I'm not a "Good" one.  That is the thing that non Christians have to understand we are not perfect, just forgiven by the blood.

I guess to answer all your questions... I'm on this board to tell the truth as I see it.  I'm surprised you guys didn't tell the poor man to just keep that poor girl on a ventilator for ever.  You can do that ya know?  You can keep a body alive by machines.  I can't believe I'm the only person that told him to set her free by not forcing her to endure dialysis.  I guess because I believe in eternal life I know heaven is a better place.  I would also tell a person NOT to start there 99 year old mother who has Alzheimer's on dialysis.    I also tell kids that drinking and driving is a bad thing.  I think pretty much a doctor or pastor tells people who have a dying loved ones that there is Organ Donation.  I also tell people who feel they have to quit this bord to not let the door hit them in the ass. Some people just tell the truth.  Just can't help it.

Jean, if you see a friend walking toward a cliff would you not warn them?  That is what our job is as born again Christians.  To warn others of hell and a way out.  I agree that if you have all heard the word and the truth, then we should quit nagging.  If you choose to not listen and act then so be it.

[del]

I told myself I would not post here again but I am going to.  We all have to have respect for others. Sometimes it is good to be truthful other times it is better to keep your mouth shut especially if it is going to hurt someone else!! If we all went around telling the truth all the same there would be lots of hurt feelings. I'm not saying you need to lie but just don't say anything. I always tell my students if you can't say something nice to people stay quiet. The purpose of this thread (and site) is to allow everyone to express their opinions and ideas - not to try to convince other people of your beliefs. Hanify, I also believe that those books, Bible, Koran and the Torah should be studied. I have done some bible study courses (university level) and they were very interesting.  I respect other people's opinions here and I think Hemodoc and Rerun you should take a step back and respect the other people's opinion here not just your own.  It is not a thread to try and convince people to believe in the bible or our individual beliefs.  Just state what you believe or don't believe and others should respect it.  This can turn into a very heated discussion where people's feelings can be hurt and things said that shouldn't be said. Please don't let it come to that!!

[fc2821]

If I take a lamp and shine toward the wall, a bright spot will appear on the wall. The lamp is our search for truth, for understanding. Too often we assume the light on the wall is God, but the light is not the goal of the search, it is the result of the search. The more intense the search, the brighter the light on the wall. The brighter the light on the wall, the greater the revelation upon seeing it. Similarly, someone who does not search, who does not bring a lantern with him, sees nothing. What we perceive as God is the by-product of our search for God. It may simply be an appreciation of the light, pure and unblemished. Not understanding that it comes from us, sometimes, we stand in front of the light and assume we are the center of the universe. God looks astonishingly like we do. Or we turn to look at our shadow and assume all is darkness. If we allow ourselves to get in the way, we defeat the purpose - which is use the light of our search to illuminate the wall in all its beauty and all it flaws, and in so doing, better understand the world around us.

[willowtreewren]

Beautifully said, Rob.

And it applies to all of us, whether or not the truth we seek is a belief in god or an illumination of the beauty of nature.

Thank you.

And Del, thank you for bring your wisdom and grace into the discussion, too.

Aleta

[fc2821]

Aleta,  I wish I could take credit for that but it is something from one of the characters on the Babylon 5 TV show.  I have read a great deal of philosophy, various religious writings and thoughts. I took classes in philsophy and religious studies at the unversity I went to in my younger days.  Oddly enough this which I posted has made more sense to me than anything written by any philosopher or religious teacher.