Is there a GOD? - ding! ding! ding ding geeeeet reaaaaaady toooooo rummmmble!!!!

[Hemodoc]

Kitkatz, I think I got it, but I don't know that I got it. 

Richard, I think you and I have just as much to add to this conversation as those who are religious. Without voices from the dissenting side, the conversation would be pretty flat.

Hemodoc, I have carefully read through your posts using scripture to prove the existence of god because of prophecies that came true. Even if I accepted the Bible as a reliable source, I don't derive any compelling sense that the scriptures really do provide clear cut prophesies of the crucifixion.

I am trying to understand why these writings that are so open to interpretation are so convincing. I just don't get it.

You have stated more than once that posters have not answered your "proof" based on these prophesies, but for me, there just isn't anything in the Bible, or in what you have selected to post from it, that offers proof of the existence of god. There simply isn't anything for me to answer. And to make your proof less compelling, I don't consider the Bible a reliable source of "truth" anyway. It is an interesting collection of writings worth reading, though.

Sorry.

Aleta

Dear Aleta,

Thank you for your response.  I confess that I have found the Bible to be completely reliable especially the prophecies of the crucifixion.  Let's just compare side by side the OT and NT references starting with Psalm 22.  Sorry for the long post, but no other choice.

  Psalm 22: 1: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Matthew 27:46: And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

 
Psalm 22:2: O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. 
3: But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel. 
4: Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them. 
5: They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded. 
6: But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. 
7: All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head saying, 
8: He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

Matthew 27:39: And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads, 
40: And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. 
41: Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said, 
42: He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him. 
43: He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God. 
44: The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.


Psalm 22:9: But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts. 
10: I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly. 
11: Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help. 
12: Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. 
13: They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion. 
14: I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. 
15: My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

John 19:28: After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. 
29: Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.


Psalm 22:16: For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

John 19:16: Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away. 
17: And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha: 
18: Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.

(Crucify:  to put to death by nailing or binding the wrists or hands and feet to a cross
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/crucify )

Psalm 22:
17: I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

John 19:31: The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 
32: Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. 
33: But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:


Psalm 22:18: They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Matthew 27:35: And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.




[tyefly]

   Aleta      what have you done........

[Hemodoc]

The crucifixion is also witnessed in extra-biblical references:

Josephus: Antiquities 18, Chapter 3

3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

[tyefly]

     I love the passion that people have no matter what the subject...... 

          Peter  ( Hemodoc ) certainly has that passion...... in so many areas......

[RichardMEL]

I am trying to understand why these writings that are so open to interpretation are so convincing. I just don't get it.

I think this is one example of Faith.

[nursewratchet]

I'm with RichardMel and Aleta.  I think the Bible is a good story to read, although, I haven't nearly read through it.  The parts i do know, if taken literally by some, can be very dangerous. 

[dwcrawford]

Hehe.   Changed my mind and erased another post.  Rumble on Jets and Sharks!

[fc2821]

     Why do I fell like I am about to make a mistake by getting involved here.  Hemo I've read tranlations of the jewish/romanized historian Josephus. I never saw one like the one you quoted. May I ask the translation source? Early Christans were refered to as "Jesus followers" at the time Josephus and I do not beleive his writings on this subject were contempoary with the events he wrote about. He was present in 63 AD when the Romans "sacked" while putting a revolt ( many of the people involved had become impatient that Jesus had not returned to "drive out the Romans. Others were non Christians who wanted to take their land back from the Romans). You may know this by "the destruction of the temple" and "the scattering" of the Jewish people through the world.
     I am not trying to be critical or say you are wrong in the way you refer to the scriptures as a way to convert others, to have them accept God into their lives. These passages can be interpreted as the reader feels they see what they see. Someone else may not see what you see.
    I am glad that you found God this way. But understand others may not.
    I believe, and who knows it is just my way (my way is not better than anyone's way. It is just a way. I only present as something that work for others.
    I think quoting the words of Jsus, and being faithful to them in your everyday actions is more important. Because as Jesus said, "the kingdom of God is within you and all around you." Ok, not an exact  quote but I am at dialysis (typing one handed by the way and I apologise for the typing errors) and do not have a souce to quote exactly. Understanding history, both non Christian and Christian writtings, and physics. It is evident to me God exist.  His kingdom is within us, if we wish to realise it.
     

[Hemodoc]

     Why do I fell like I am about to make a mistake by getting involved here.  Hemo I've read tranlations of the jewish/romanized historian Josephus. I never saw one like the one you quoted. May I ask the translation source? Early Christans were refered to as "Jesus followers" at the time Josephus and I do not beleive his writings on this subject were contempoary with the events he wrote about. He was present in 63 AD when the Romans "sacked" while putting a revolt ( many of the people involved had become impatient that Jesus had not returned to "drive out the Romans. Others were non Christians who wanted to take their land back from the Romans). You may know this by "the destruction of the temple" and "the scattering" of the Jewish people through the world.
     I am not trying to be critical or say you are wrong in the way you refer to the scriptures as a way to convert others, to have them accept God into their lives. These passages can be interpreted as the reader feels they see what they see. Someone else may not see what you see.
    I am glad that you found God this way. But understand others may not.
    I believe, and who knows it is just my way (my way is not better than anyone's way. It is just a way. I only present as something that work for others.
    I think quoting the words of Jsus, and being faithful to them in your everyday actions is more important. Because as Jesus said, "the kingdom of God is within you and all around you." Ok, not an exact  quote but I am at dialysis (typing one handed by the way and I apologise for the typing errors) and do not have a souce to quote exactly. Understanding history, both non Christian and Christian writtings, and physics. It is evident to me God exist.  His kingdom is within us, if we wish to realise it.
     

Dear fc2821, thank you for a well reasoned response.  As far as the quote, I got it off of the internet.  I don't have access here in Idaho to my copy of his works to compare. Josephus is not the only extr-biblical reference to the crucifixion of Jesus, it is just the most readily available source to find on the web.

I also agree that our actions speak louder than our words, so following the teachings of Christ is important.  I have tried to keep the commandments of Jesus in Matthew 28:19-20 for starters.

The main point for posting here was the many false assertions against the Bible that I have heard on this thread.  But until you actually read what the Bible says, it is not surprising that people will criticize it based on false understandings of its true message.

God bless,

Hemodoc

[dwcrawford]

Oh fc2821, first of all, get an easier name to type and to remember.  Until you do, you are simply Rob to me.  So Rob, I admire your posts so  much and also your convictions.  Mostly I like that you give food for thought without condeming or degrading others.  And in “inspirational quotes”.. thank you.

You know, I’ve adopted the roll on IHD of trying to make people smile.  And to smile at themselves.  Most are suffering.  I am suffering and I know how much I appreciate an occassional diversion that gets my focus off of myself if only briefly.  Well, successful or not, that’s the roll I’ve adopted here.  Some appreciate it.  Some detest it.

I am thinking your purpose for being on this site (other than your own needs) is for spiritual guidance for all.  Maybe even sinners and agnostics.  Hell, even athiest can use an occassional kick in the butt.  With your outlook  and your talent, I hope you consider it.

And Peter, if I may forego the hemo designation, you present some really good points for considderation.  I can tell you, from my perspective only, that  if  you were just a bit more gentle and accepting and less critical of other beliefs, I’d read many things you write more than one  time.  I believe we could also use your spiritual guidance if it weren’t so threatening.  It is obvious you have no respect for me so I feel a little  foolish saying  this, but I’d really appreciate seeing  some of your posts if I could see them in a friendly light.  On this thread I often feel as is some of the  fundamentalist are sitting on a jury for God tellilng him who is getting into heaven and which of us are going to hell.

For anyone  who read my original post about my god being the universe, while my higher power now is the universe,  I hope you read it  a little tongue in check.   With most of my posts I hope you read as a little tongue in cheek… This one is an exception.

Dan

[Hemodoc]

Dear Dan, you are quite wrong that I have no respect for you and I very much appreciate your last post.  Perhaps if WE ALL were a little bit more gentle in our comments, we might all be able to discuss a topic of great interest but also of great contention.  Believe it or not, I as well have a sense of humor but obviously not when it comes to the Bible.  In this sense, the majority of my posts have simply been showing what the Bible does or does not say.  There are many misconceptions and misunderstandings about the Bible that I wished to correct.  I would characterize my posts as factual and blunt based on what the Bible actually states, so I will have to learn how to put factual, blunt and gentle into the same post.  In any case, I will take your advice and give it a try.

Thank you again.

Peter

[jennyc]

Ok, i'm not getting into a discussion about the bible, honestly haven't read the book since high school. i was raised a catholic and like most of us catholics i went to catholic primary and secondary school but my belief system is a lot more complex that just one word.... Catholic.

I believe there is a GOD, i also believe in evolution. To me they go hand in hand because the bible was written by man and who is to say that one day to GOD is 24 hours? I see GOD's influence in the shaping of the world, the ebb and flow of life even in extinction and evolution. It's all part of his master plan.

Now I don't believe in near death experiences (i've been clinically dead 4 times, no light nothing, why?   well becuase it wasn't my time.) I believe the 'light' is your pupil reacting to light changes or the dr's pen light.

I don't believe in re-incarnation but i do believe that there are a lot of similarities in the buddhist doctrines and moral living, i even hold with some of the scientists/reasearchers who have found links that Jesus spent his missing years in Tibet/Nepal/India with the monks.

On the other hand i'm also open to other religions, i respect my mother in laws hindu faith and even pray with her and went temple when she's here. It may be seen as a sin but out of respect for her i respect her religion. I believe there really isn't so much difference between Christianity and Islam and the Jewish faiths (not as much as they are making out), we worship the same GOD just differently and we are the only ones who believe our messiah has already come.

So my beliefs are a lot more complicated than that, but that is a simplistic version.

[fc2821]

     Well, I am home and I can type with more than one hand now.  I have to pass along some accurate informtion about Josephus.  My memory while on dialysis was faulty. I have check my books at home and have this to pass along. Falvuis Titus Josephus was Jewish  and he lived from 37 to 100 AD.  He lived in Jeruslem and was present during the Roman destruction in 70 AD (not 63 as I thought).  He fought on the Jewish side in the Jewish Roman War, a rebleion to drive the Romans out of Jedea from 66 to 70 AD.  He later becamea roman citizen and while one he wrote two books about Jewish civilzation in the first century.  One of these is a work known as The Antiquities of the Jews , which is what Peter (hemo) quoted.  That particular passage is specificly known as the Testimonium Flavianum .  The authenticity of this has been questioned since the 1600's by scholars.  You see Josephus was a roman when he wrote it, it was orginally written in Latin but theearlies known copy of the work comes to us from the 11th century and is in greek.
Scholars argue that some of the greek words are vague and might possibly have been changed by Christians.  This is fuled by the fact that the Christian writer Origen fails to mention the passage, in any form, in his writtings on The Antiquities of the Jews dating back to 240.  He does quote various passages but not this one.  One of the quotes Origen mentions is about Jesus the brother of James.  So he knew the work and schoolars think it had been changed after Origen's time.  Of course some schoolars do not accept this.  Others say that the work is acurte in the whole but has additions made by later Christian transcribers.
      I have found the translation you used Peter, on line.  The one I have is older and worded differnt but escentually the same, except it refers to the the early Christians as "Jesus's followers".  Possibly something the translator liked better because early Christan writtings use tht term.  I don't know.
      Why is all this importatn?  Well, there is so many questions about the acuracy of these writtings that it
absolute proof of anything.  I am sorry Peter, not being citical of your belief. You just have to take these things with an open mind tht they are on the most part acurate and contain the essense of truth. 
     After I got home from dialysis last night, it bothered me that I had made my last post.  I knew it contained factual and tpographical erros, but tht wasn't what bothred me.  I don't like to argue about religon or God, it goes against what I believe about religon and God.   Everyone is welcome to their beliefs and has a right to expresse them.  When I first started posting in this thread, I did so becseu this was a subject which hs interested me all my life.  I hoped we could have a nice sensable discussion and exchange of views and ideas.  I know the topic is a hot one for people, but I feel that everyone, wether you beleive in God  (or a differnt relgon, we have been discussing only the Christian religon) you have something to contibute and might be of help to someone else who might read it. 
     We are all here because we have something in common, dialysis.  As we all know it can rough at times for us and we want sometimes want answers to maters that are beyond the day to day.  I like IHD and I enjoy my time at IHD.  IHD gets me through dialysis many a day, the humor and help, and friendship is wonderful.  I don't want us to argue or fight because we have differnt views on this subject.  We need to help each other thrpugh the rough times.  Who know btter than us what that is like for someone on dialysis.   
     So, I am not going to be critical of anyone's posts or questions their opinions.  I hope you don't either.  I am not sure if I will return to this thrad again or not, but until I do.  Please ne nice to each other. 

[Rerun]

Hemodoc I enjoy reading your posts.  I don't find them invasive or challenging.  I find them comforting. 

                       

[fc2821]

Wanted to get this point across. (I am not the world's greatest typist.)   My point in my last post being.  We have to be careful relying on translations from acient language to make our points.  Of course, you don't have much choice outside of learning the language and translating it yourself, but sometimes the meanings can get changed in the translations and it appers to say one thing when it may not have meant to have. 

[fc2821]

jennyc, sorry I missed this earlier to comment.  I don't think it is a sin if you pray with your mother in law.  Ok, so you are different religons, but God knows who you are and what is in your heart.  I also accept evolution as part of God's mechanism for the universe. 

[Stoday]

Hemodoc I enjoy reading your posts.  I don't find them invasive. I find them challenging and thought provoking.

You will find that Allah has no son, so Allah can absolutely not be the same God of the Christians who teach that Jesus is not only God, but the Son of God. 
...
So,  it is impossible that the God of the Christians and the God of Islam are the same not by my opinion but by the Koran itself.  Allah, has no Son, and Allah is not the triune God of the Bible.

On that basis, Jews worship a different God.

Their scriptures predict the coming of a messiah, who is not the son of God and neither has he yet come.

If there is a God then it's jennyc's vision of God, which includes Kṛṣṇa, that's the only viable one.

[Hemodoc]

Ok, i'm not getting into a discussion about the bible, honestly haven't read the book since high school. i was raised a catholic and like most of us catholics i went to catholic primary and secondary school but my belief system is a lot more complex that just one word.... Catholic.

I believe there is a GOD, i also believe in evolution. To me they go hand in hand because the bible was written by man and who is to say that one day to GOD is 24 hours? I see GOD's influence in the shaping of the world, the ebb and flow of life even in extinction and evolution. It's all part of his master plan.

Now I don't believe in near death experiences (i've been clinically dead 4 times, no light nothing, why?   well becuase it wasn't my time.) I believe the 'light' is your pupil reacting to light changes or the dr's pen light.

I don't believe in re-incarnation but i do believe that there are a lot of similarities in the buddhist doctrines and moral living, i even hold with some of the scientists/reasearchers who have found links that Jesus spent his missing years in Tibet/Nepal/India with the monks.

On the other hand i'm also open to other religions, i respect my mother in laws hindu faith and even pray with her and went temple when she's here. It may be seen as a sin but out of respect for her i respect her religion. I believe there really isn't so much difference between Christianity and Islam and the Jewish faiths (not as much as they are making out), we worship the same GOD just differently and we are the only ones who believe our messiah has already come.

So my beliefs are a lot more complicated than that, but that is a simplistic version.

Dear jennyc, thank you for your comment.  It is not an easy task to sit down and open your own personal beliefs to others in this open forum understanding that we have differing view points.  Yet all that do should be commended.

I would like to look at the issue of the three monotheistic religions worshipping the same deity.  I don't believe that is the case.  Let's start with the issue of Allah as the name of a common deity.  There is a current court case making world wide headlines that looks at this case and the confusion that exists over the name of Allah and whether that is also the name of the Christian God as well.

"Kuala Lumpur (AsiaNews) - The Catholic newspaper of the diocese of Kuala Lumpur, the Herald, is undergoing a campaign of insults and criticism because of its use of the word "Allah." The attack is coming from much of the Malaysian press, and in particular from Utusan Malaysia, a national newspaper. Recently, since February 1, Utusan has started publishing an article every day insulting the Catholic newspaper and accusing it of proselytism. It is trying to stir up outrage among the Muslim population over the use of the word "Allah" in reference to the Christian God, and is accusing the publication of wanting to ruin the nation."

http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=14415

If Allah is the same as the Christian's Jehohovah, then why the heated debate in a predominantly Islamic nation, to the point of death threats.  It is actually quite simple when we understand that Allah is not and cannot be the same as the God of the Bible.  The God of the Bible is a triune being all the way from Genesis:

Genesis 1:26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

I am told by scholars that the plural form of "our" is three in this verse.

Secondly, the Son of God is not just a New Testament reference as well.  We have more than one reference to the Son of God in the Old Testatment:

Psalms 2:    1: Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2: The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3: Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4: He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5: Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6: Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7: I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8: Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9: Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10: Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11: Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12: Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Proverbs 30:4: Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou
canst tell?

However, Allah is not triune as the God of the Bible, nor does Allah have a son.

"The Women

[4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector."

So, we can find much evidence of the God of the Jews actually being the same God of the Christians.  In fact, Jesus is the Messiah in our view.  There is much in the Bible to confirm this OT and NT.  However, by the Koran, Allah is not a triune being nor does he have a son.  The reason that there are protests right now in Malaysia is due to the fact that when some one uses the name of Allah in a Bible translation, the Muslims accuse them of lying about Allah. They further deny the divinity of Jesus as the Son of God.  THese two sets of belief are not reconcilable and I personally do not believe it is correct to refer to Allah in translations as the God of the Bible.   One is a triune being with a Son, the other is singular with no son.

You may be interested in looking into the ancient writings and history of Allah before the time of the Bible.  I believe if you compare the God of the Bible to Allah you will find as many who have explored this issue in depth that they are not one in the same.  It is an issue today for millions of faithful Muslims in Malaysia right now.  They do not at all believe it is right either.

[Hemodoc]

Hemodoc I enjoy reading your posts.  I don't find them invasive. I find them challenging and thought provoking.

You will find that Allah has no son, so Allah can absolutely not be the same God of the Christians who teach that Jesus is not only God, but the Son of God. 
...
So,  it is impossible that the God of the Christians and the God of Islam are the same not by my opinion but by the Koran itself.  Allah, has no Son, and Allah is not the triune God of the Bible.

On that basis, Jews worship a different God.

Their scriptures predict the coming of a messiah, who is not the son of God and neither has he yet come.

If there is a God then it's jennyc's vision of God, which includes Krishna, that's the only viable one.

Dear Stoday, sorry, but your post went up just as I was putting in my last post.  Let's look at the Scriptures on the Messiah.  They do in fact point to the Son of God as I already mentioned in Psalm 2 and Proverbs 30:4 above.  Let's look at another one dealing with the crucifixion and the coming of the Messiah to deliver Israel:

Zechariah 12:    1: The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
2: Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3: And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. . .

. . . 7: The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8: In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9: And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. . .

. . . 13:6: And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
7: Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8: And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9: And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

The Messiah of Old Testament Scriptures will be the one that they have pierced and that has two wounds in His hands , wounded in the house of His friends. The Jews do indeed worship the same God as the Christians, they just don't YET understand all of the OT references to Jesus as their Messiah.  In fact, many of the Rabbis have ascribed Jesus as a false prophet instead.  In any case, their Messiah shall be someone that has been pierced and his hands wounded in the house of His friends.  That greatly limits the number of contenders that can fulfill this Scripture.

[Hemodoc]

Hemodoc I enjoy reading your posts.  I don't find them invasive. I find them challenging and thought provoking.

You will find that Allah has no son, so Allah can absolutely not be the same God of the Christians who teach that Jesus is not only God, but the Son of God. 
...
So,  it is impossible that the God of the Christians and the God of Islam are the same not by my opinion but by the Koran itself.  Allah, has no Son, and Allah is not the triune God of the Bible.

On that basis, Jews worship a different God.

Their scriptures predict the coming of a messiah, who is not the son of God and neither has he yet come.

If there is a God then it's jennyc's vision of God, which includes Kṛṣṇa, that's the only viable one.

Ok, i'm not getting into a discussion about the bible, honestly haven't read the book since high school. i was raised a catholic and like most of us catholics i went to catholic primary and secondary school but my belief system is a lot more complex that just one word.... Catholic.

I believe there is a GOD, i also believe in evolution. To me they go hand in hand because the bible was written by man and who is to say that one day to GOD is 24 hours? I see GOD's influence in the shaping of the world, the ebb and flow of life even in extinction and evolution. It's all part of his master plan.

Now I don't believe in near death experiences (i've been clinically dead 4 times, no light nothing, why?   well becuase it wasn't my time.) I believe the 'light' is your pupil reacting to light changes or the dr's pen light.

I don't believe in re-incarnation but i do believe that there are a lot of similarities in the buddhist doctrines and moral living, i even hold with some of the scientists/reasearchers who have found links that Jesus spent his missing years in Tibet/Nepal/India with the monks.

On the other hand i'm also open to other religions, i respect my mother in laws hindu faith and even pray with her and went temple when she's here. It may be seen as a sin but out of respect for her i respect her religion. I believe there really isn't so much difference between Christianity and Islam and the Jewish faiths (not as much as they are making out), we worship the same GOD just differently and we are the only ones who believe our messiah has already come.

So my beliefs are a lot more complicated than that, but that is a simplistic version.

Dear Stoday and jennyc's,

It is interesting the confluence of beliefs inclusive of so many religions into one that many people have besides yourself. A preacher over 150 years ago looked at the origins of the so called "pagan" religions and current practices of his time.  It was his contention that many of the practices seen in the Roman Catholic church had common origins to the religion of ancient Babylon that then spread east, west, north and south.  I understand that many likewise make similar claims with mithraism for Christianity (http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/mithraism.html) but I obviously don't agree with their contentions.  However, Alexander Hislop's book if nothing else has an excellent discussion of the history of many of the world's religions and his contentions that they all have a common origin in ancient Babylon, with the exclusion of the God of the Bible.  If nothing else, he has excellent drawings that are still used in many publications today.  You may or may not agree with his premise, but the discussion on the historical aspects of many of the world's religions is quite interesting in and of itself whether or not you believe he has proven his premise.  Here is a link to his entire book for anyone that is interested in looking at some of these historical references that are truly lost to our modern times.  While we have learned much in the last few decades, we have also lost much as well.

The Two Babylons
or
The Papal Worship Proved to be the Worship of Nimrod
and His Wife
By the Late Rev. Alexander Hislop

First published as a pamphlet in 1853--greatly expanded in 1858

http://www.cbcg.org/twobaby/twobaby.htm

[nursewratchet]

This is all WAY over my head.  I've never heard of some of this stuff.  I sound like an idiot.  Sorry.

[Stoday]

(Zechariah) 13:6: And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
7: Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8: And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9: And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

The Messiah of Old Testament Scriptures will be the one that they have pierced and that has two wounds in His hands , wounded in the house of His friends. The Jews do indeed worship the same God as the Christians, they just don't YET understand all of the OT references to Jesus as their Messiah.  In fact, many of the Rabbis have ascribed Jesus as a false prophet instead. 

Hemodoc, if you had not excluded the first part of your quote, it would be clear that the Bible in your quotation referred to a false prophet, not JC:

13:2 ... I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
God gets rid of the false prophets

13: 3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
Any that crop up later will get sorted by their parents

13:4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
They will be ashamed of their deceit and stop dressing like a real prophet

13:5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
They will admit they’re not a prophet but only a farmer

13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
They will admit they got their wounds innocently.

God goes on to kill two thirds of the false prophets’ followers but saves the remainder who swear allegiance.

[Stoday]

To sum up:

The God of Islam is not the same as the Christian God because the former has no son.

The God of Judism is the same as the Christian God because although the Jews don't recognize Jesus as the son of God, all the rabbis in the world and all those who have died, have got it wrong. If they had interpreted the prophesies correctly, as Hemodoc has, Judism would accept Jesus as the son of God.

[Hemodoc]

(Zechariah) 13:6: And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
7: Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8: And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9: And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

The Messiah of Old Testament Scriptures will be the one that they have pierced and that has two wounds in His hands , wounded in the house of His friends. The Jews do indeed worship the same God as the Christians, they just don't YET understand all of the OT references to Jesus as their Messiah.  In fact, many of the Rabbis have ascribed Jesus as a false prophet instead. 

Hemodoc, if you had not excluded the first part of your quote, it would be clear that the Bible in your quotation referred to a false prophet, not JC:

13:2 ... I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
God gets rid of the false prophets

13: 3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
Any that crop up later will get sorted by their parents

13:4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
They will be ashamed of their deceit and stop dressing like a real prophet

13:5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
They will admit they’re not a prophet but only a farmer

13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
They will admit they got their wounds innocently.

God goes on to kill two thirds of the false prophets’ followers but saves the remainder who swear allegiance.

Dear Stoday, some have complained that my posts are already too long, so I have tried to only put what is needed to document what the Bible says itself.  Let's take another look at this.  The context of Zechariah chapter 13 is that of chapters 12 and 14.  Let's go to chapter 14 first:

Zechariah 14:    1: Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2: For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3: Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4: And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Chapter 14 talks about how the LORD shall fight against all of the nations gathered against Israel.  The residue of the people that shall not be cut off is the same people mentioned in vs 13:8-9:

8: And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9: And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

This is still a future battle to be fought since it is not found anywhere in history to date where the Messiah came and fought in person for Israel.  Further, Israel has lost all of it's battles since Nebachadnezzar in 606 BC until 1948.  Since the time of the Babylonian captivity to the time of the Roman destruction of Jerusalem, we see no time where the Jewish Messiah fought and destroyed their enemies.  It is a future battle that we can actually correlate precisely to the end of the battle of Armageddon from several other passages of Scipture. Another long discussion but I won't go there now.

Now, let's look back at Zechariah chapter 12 for the further context of chapter 13:

Zechariah 12: 1: The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
2: Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3: And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
4: In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
5: And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
6: In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7: The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8: In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9: And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

When we go back and look at chapter 12, we see that chapter 12 and chapter 14 are both speaking of the day that Israel shall be delivered by their Messiah when He Himself goes forth into battle for them.  This is once again a future event that has not yet happened.  In between these two descriptions of the same battle, we find some very interesting events as well.

Now, back to chapter 13 for some further context to where I picked up in Zechariah 13:6.  Stoday, you stated that I took my comments out of context which is not true, simply trying to keep a long post from being very long since several people state that they don't read long posts, especially MY long posts.  Nevertheless, since you brought it up, lets look at the context of Zechariah 13:1 that you left out of your comments as well but in reality, it shades your comments about the following verses incorrectly in my opinion.  You really should have included Zechariah 13:1.

Zechariah 13:1: In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

This is one of the single most important verses to grasp concerning the entire issue that we are discussing on whether Jesus is a false prophet as you contend, or whether He is instead the true Messiah not recognized by His own people until this event described by Zechariah over 500 years before the start of Christianity.  The context of of Zechariah 13:1 is what we have already talked about in chapter 12 and 14 when the Messiah comes and saves Jerusalem from all the armies of the earth gathered against it.  We need to look further at a set of verses that you didn't discuss in your post.  That is found just above 13:1:

Zechariah 12:8: In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9: And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

This is a very long discussion in Zechariah on the day that Israel meets their Messiah and He saves them from all the armies of the earth.  Then right in the middle of this lengthy three chapter discussion of the battle and victory, we read this very strange phrase, and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced.  Who is the THEY and who is the ME in this verse.  Well, THEY are the jews that were just saved by their Messiah.  The ME that THEY have pierced is their Messiah.

What immediately follows the greatest Jewish victory in all of their history to be and the day that they meet their Messiah?  Mourning for the one that they had pierced.  Why would meeting the Jewish Messiah lead to such sorrow and mourning instead of great celebration?

Zechariah 12:10: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11: In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12: And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13: The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14: All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.


Sorry for the devilishly long post, but no choice if I am going to answer the question posed to me.  What we see in chapter 13:1 is the day that the people of Israel meet their Messiah face to face and He accepts them and comforts them.  I understand that many well respected Rabbis for centuries have taught otherwise, but the verses remain for all to inspect for themselves.  There are literally dozens of specific points I could go into further, but I will rest at this.  The 2/3rds that dies are those that die in the battle described in Zechariah 12 and 14, and the God that they call upon that day is the one that they pierced and mourned for Him when they were able to still see the wounds in His hands.  I must say, that is what the passages state. Forgive me for the excessively long post.

[Hemodoc]

To sum up:

The God of Islam is not the same as the Christian God because the former has no son.

The God of Judism is the same as the Christian God because although the Jews don't recognize Jesus as the son of God, all the rabbis in the world and all those who have died, have got it wrong. If they had interpreted the prophesies correctly, as Hemodoc has, Judism would accept Jesus as the son of God.

Dear Stoday, I detect some sarcasm in this post, or perhaps I am being credited with finding the Jewish Messiah when no one else could.  In any case, I believe many don't actually know that the word Christ comes from the Greek Christos which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew word Messiah.  Christ is the Messiah by Christian belief.  We are Christ believers or in other words, Messiah believers in the man named Jesus.  The first to state that Jesus was the Christ or Messiah, is actually Jesus Himself.  It is the reason why He was crucified.

Matthew 26 : 62: And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
63: But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64: Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65: Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
66: What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

So, it matters little if anything at all what my opinions are about Jesus as the Messiah or the OT prophecies and what they mean.  I am not the one that made the claims of being the Messiah. I am not the one that wrote these prophecies about the Jewish Messiah.  Jesus made that claim for Himself.  He is also the one that spoke of the prophecies that He alone fulfilled:

Luke 24:3: And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
14: And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
15: And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16: But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
17: And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
18: And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass therein these days?
19: And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
20: And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21: But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
22: Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
23: And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
24: And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
25: Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27: And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

So, one long set of posts that bring us back to the same contention that I started with on the crucifixion of Christ in the OT.  Once again, it is not my opinions that matter at all, but the Scriptures have great significance.  If even His own disciples were slow of heart to believe, then it is not in the least surprising that those that don't believe won't.  Following from the example of Christ Himself, you can find Him by going back to the OT prophecies that spoke of all the things that He would do.  Not my ideas at all Stoday, just following the example of Jesus and how He taught His disciples why He was and is the Messiah.