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KarenInWA
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« Reply #50 on: December 17, 2012, 03:11:34 PM »

Wow, so we're really comparing aborting pregnancies to shooting innocent kids in a classroom. Seriously???

God is angry at us for abortion, so this is the wake-up call to get us to think serioiusly about it? A madman with a gun??? How does one equate to the other??????

As a woman who has had CKD and now ESRD being treated w/a transplant, who would have to or have had to abort if I ever got pregnant, I take offense to that.  Not only that, it reeks WAAAAAY to much of the mentality of the westboro "baptist" "church". Why would ANYone want to be like them????????

There is no need to drag abortion into this God-awful tragedy. It has absolutely nothing to do about it.

Now, can we get back on track to what this thread is really about?? The tragedy in Newton CT and the victims and families affected by it?

KarenInWA

Sorry to offend, but why would God hate the innocent death of 20 beautiful children in CT, but NOT hate the innocent death of thousands of his children daily? Sorry, but that is not Westboro Baptist mentality that is simply the reality that life begins at conception. Westboro Baptists are not Baptist nor Christian, they are a cult that thrives on provoking lawsuits to make money.

God is offended by the loss of All innocent life. Is that really a hard concept to understand? And yes, abortion is all about the loss of innocent life. Yet our society dismisses that and acts rightfully horrified by the actions in CT. That is unfortunately hypocrisy at its worst.

Yes, I understand that the westboro "baptist" "church" is not like a traditional church, which is why I do not capitalize it and put quotes around those words. What reeks of wbc to me in regards to bringing abortion up in relation to this tragedy is this - the wbc is bringing up gay marriage as the reason for this tragedy. There are some out there who are doing the same with abortion. Abortion has NOTHING to do with this tragedy, it is an apples and oranges comparison.  I am sorry, but I feel that there is a huge difference between a fetus that has barely developed vs a child that has been born, loved, raised, has personality and a future. I know that somewhere earlier on this thread, someone was mourning the death of 50 million babies via abortion. We already have a population problem. As cold as that sounds, where would we put these millions of additional people? However, once you're born, you're here, and we should do everything in our collective power to take care of our youth. "It takes a village" and all of that. That is a subject for another thread, so I won't go further on that here. Just like abortion is a subject for another thread, and should not be brought up here. Guns, however, is a subject to be brought up in this thread, since it was guns - and not abortion - that killed these innocent kids. In their classroom, of all places. The whole thing is just sick, sad and wrong.

KarenInWA
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1996 - Diagnosed with Proteinuria
2000 - Started seeing nephrologist on regular basis
Mar 2010 - Started Aranesp shots - well into CKD4
Dec 1, 2010 - Transplant Eval Appt - Listed on Feb 10, 2012
Apr 18, 2011 - Had fistula placed at GFR 8
April 20, 2011 - Had chest cath placed, GFR 6
April 22, 2011 - Started in-center HD. Continued to work FT and still went out and did things: live theater, concerts, spend time with friends, dine out, etc
May 2011 - My Wonderful Donor offered to get tested!
Oct 2011  - My Wonderful Donor was approved for surgery!
November 23, 2011 - Live-Donor Transplant (Lynette the Kidney gets a new home!)
April 3, 2012 - Routine Post-Tx Biopsy (creatinine went up just a little, from 1.4 to 1.7)
April 7, 2012 - ER admit to hospital, emergency surgery to remove large hematoma caused by biopsy
April 8, 2012 - In hospital dialysis with 2 units of blood
Now: On the mend, getting better! New Goal: No more in-patient hospital stays! More travel and life adventures!
YLGuy
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« Reply #51 on: December 17, 2012, 03:11:44 PM »

Wow, so we're really comparing aborting pregnancies to shooting innocent kids in a classroom. Seriously???

God is angry at us for abortion, so this is the wake-up call to get us to think serioiusly about it? A madman with a gun??? How does one equate to the other??????

As a woman who has had CKD and now ESRD being treated w/a transplant, who would have to or have had to abort if I ever got pregnant, I take offense to that.  Not only that, it reeks WAAAAAY to much of the mentality of the westboro "baptist" "church". Why would ANYone want to be like them????????

There is no need to drag abortion into this God-awful tragedy. It has absolutely nothing to do about it.

Now, can we get back on track to what this thread is really about?? The tragedy in Newton CT and the victims and families affected by it?

KarenInWA

Sorry to offend, but why would God hate the innocent death of 20 beautiful children in CT, but NOT hate the innocent death of thousands of his children daily? Sorry, but that is not Westboro Baptist mentality that is simply the reality that life begins at conception. Westboro Baptists are not Baptist nor Christian, they are a cult that thrives on provoking lawsuits to make money.

God is offended by the loss of All innocent life. Is that really a hard concept to understand? And yes, abortion is all about the loss of innocent life. Yet our society dismisses that and acts rightfully horrified by the actions in CT. That is unfortunately hypocrisy at its worst.

Here is the problem: YOU ARE NOT SORRY TO OFFEND.  To turn this thread into a discussion on abortion is absolutely and totally disgusting.  You should be ashamed.
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Hemodoc
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« Reply #52 on: December 17, 2012, 03:15:33 PM »

Wow, so we're really comparing aborting pregnancies to shooting innocent kids in a classroom. Seriously???

God is angry at us for abortion, so this is the wake-up call to get us to think serioiusly about it? A madman with a gun??? How does one equate to the other??????

As a woman who has had CKD and now ESRD being treated w/a transplant, who would have to or have had to abort if I ever got pregnant, I take offense to that.  Not only that, it reeks WAAAAAY to much of the mentality of the westboro "baptist" "church". Why would ANYone want to be like them????????

There is no need to drag abortion into this God-awful tragedy. It has absolutely nothing to do about it.

Now, can we get back on track to what this thread is really about?? The tragedy in Newton CT and the victims and families affected by it?

KarenInWA

Sorry to offend, but why would God hate the innocent death of 20 beautiful children in CT, but NOT hate the innocent death of thousands of his children daily? Sorry, but that is not Westboro Baptist mentality that is simply the reality that life begins at conception. Westboro Baptists are not Baptist nor Christian, they are a cult that thrives on provoking lawsuits to make money.

God is offended by the loss of All innocent life. Is that really a hard concept to understand? And yes, abortion is all about the loss of innocent life. Yet our society dismisses that and acts rightfully horrified by the actions in CT. That is unfortunately hypocrisy at its worst.

Here is the problem: YOU ARE NOT SORRY TO OFFEND.  To turn this thread into a discussion on abortion is absolutely and totally disgusting.  You should be ashamed.

Hey YL, great to hear from you again as always. By the way, I DID Not throw out the first reference to God or abortion.  But no sense arguing with you, but yes, God is offended by the loss of ALL innocent life especially abortion. But hey, since you don't believe in God, don't worry about it, God isn't real remember, isn't that your position? 

In any case why not yell at Moosemom who brought up the issue, but no it is more fun to cast aspersions at me instead.

Have a great day YL, nothing changes does it.
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KarenInWA
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« Reply #53 on: December 17, 2012, 03:21:48 PM »

Hey YL, great to hear from you again as always. By the way, I DID Not throw out the first reference to God or abortion.  But no sense arguing with you, but yes, God is offended by the loss of ALL innocent life especially abortion. But hey, since you don't believe in God, don't worry about it, God isn't real remember, isn't that your position? 

In any case why not yell at Moosemom who brought up the issue, but no it is more fun to cast aspersions at me instead.

Have a great day YL, nothing changes does it.

Actually, if you look back further, it was not MooseMom who first brought it up. She was merely responding to the individual who DID bring it up first. I don't like to call out people like that. Just go back and do your own research. In any event, abortion has nothing to do with this tragedy. Much like gay marriage and the wbc have nothing to do with it, either.

KarenInWA
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1996 - Diagnosed with Proteinuria
2000 - Started seeing nephrologist on regular basis
Mar 2010 - Started Aranesp shots - well into CKD4
Dec 1, 2010 - Transplant Eval Appt - Listed on Feb 10, 2012
Apr 18, 2011 - Had fistula placed at GFR 8
April 20, 2011 - Had chest cath placed, GFR 6
April 22, 2011 - Started in-center HD. Continued to work FT and still went out and did things: live theater, concerts, spend time with friends, dine out, etc
May 2011 - My Wonderful Donor offered to get tested!
Oct 2011  - My Wonderful Donor was approved for surgery!
November 23, 2011 - Live-Donor Transplant (Lynette the Kidney gets a new home!)
April 3, 2012 - Routine Post-Tx Biopsy (creatinine went up just a little, from 1.4 to 1.7)
April 7, 2012 - ER admit to hospital, emergency surgery to remove large hematoma caused by biopsy
April 8, 2012 - In hospital dialysis with 2 units of blood
Now: On the mend, getting better! New Goal: No more in-patient hospital stays! More travel and life adventures!
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« Reply #54 on: December 17, 2012, 03:59:00 PM »

I am going to do myself a kindness tonight and not read through this thread to discover how we got onto the topic of abortion. Happy holiday season to me!

Simon, I agree with you that experience does not equal expertise. I have argued this myself in the past. However, arming a school is not just a security issue - it is a deeply political decision and will have a psychological impact on all involved with that institution. When you are talking about the psychology of children and how this will impact the individual, then parents are going to overwhelmingly be the experts in that area when it comes to their own kids. Not to mention that this would fundamentally change the job description of teachers and/or headmasters. I believe that NO teacher that I have encountered through my own children would be willing to work in the sort of environment that would develop from bringing guns into a school. My kids went to their much-loved afterschool program (that has now become a model program for the nation) after that law was passed that allowed guns everywhere and anywhere unless the property owners explicitly prohibited them. Since this afterschool program is part of a university campus, signs went up overnight - on all the university owned buildings including the children's centre - saying that guns were not allowed on the premises. Here we had an announcement of a gun-free zone, and yet (thankfully, thankfully, thankfully) no incidents of any shootings. I believe we need to get to the root of this problem (the causes of the causes of the causes as they say in public health) rather than just continually escalate the weaponry.

Everywhere my kids have ever gone to school there has been a playground. In LA, the gates were a mile high (slight exaggeration) and nearly impossible to see through, but every other place you could just stand on the street corner and start shooting the kids. The LA school had weekly field trips using city buses or just walking through town - same problem. The determined individual can always find a way, but do we want to turn our schools into a constant reminder of violence and fear, or do we want to focus our energies on preventing people from going round the bend in the first place.

Here is part of a quote passed along by a friend in Wisconsin, where we have seen teachers devalued and insulted for years now: We live in a society where the response is "Arm teachers!" from the same people who called teachers "thugs" a year ago. Yes, teachers are overworked, underpaid, and justifiably angry at how they have been demonized and held up as a symbol of society's ills. And now, after the abuse and indignities that they've endured, we want to hand them guns. What could go wrong?
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« Reply #55 on: December 17, 2012, 04:46:47 PM »

Hemodoc

Where is the evidence of increased violence in Australia since the banning of hand guns?  Things seem to be plodding along as usual here.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2012/12/16/gun_control_after_connecticut_shooting_could_australia_s_laws_provide_a.html
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« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2012, 05:07:06 PM »

I started it because I could not help but think of the babies killed at that school and Obama weeping over them but he supports partial birth abortion.  Kind of a hypocrite but maybe he will start thinking about it himself and see the irony.  The only reason I brought it up was because it made me think.  It is awful too. 

I guess if you don't see the connection you never will. 

Here was my quote:
Quote
When Obama talks about.... Do we do enough to protect our children in this country, Do we show them our love and do they know they are safe here able to grow up and live their dreams ..... I can't help but think of the 20+ abortions that happened that morning or the 52 million babies who this country has allowed to be killed.  I just can't help but think of them.  He weeps over little kids being murdered but allows partial birth abortions?  How can we make sense of that senseless act.  Should we spend more money on mental health for those scared young girls who just want out?  Maybe provide a safe place for them to have their babies and not kill them and have to live with that the rese of their lives?  I'm just thinking outloud here. [quote/]


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YLGuy
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« Reply #57 on: December 17, 2012, 05:30:39 PM »

STOP!

There are many bad things that are happening in this world right now. 

This is about:

(CNN) -- When a gunman opened fire inside a Newtown, Connecticut, elementary school Friday, he cut short 26 lives. Six women who worked at Sandy Hook Elementary were killed, in addition to 20 students -- twelve girls and eight boys -- according to state police.
Here are details about their lives:
Charlotte Bacon, 6
Charlotte was sweet, outgoing and full of energy, her grandmother told CNN affiliate WCCO in Minnesota.
"This is tough. This is surreal. You can't believe this could happen," Irene Hagen told the network. "The whole family is just devastated and we're all trying to come to terms with it."
She said her granddaughter loved school and dresses. Her hair was a mass of beautiful red curls.
"It's horrible. It's really horrible," Hagen told WCCO. "It's hard to believe that someone would kill children, innocent children."
Rachel D'Avino, 29
She likely didn't know it when she died, but her best friend was about to propose.
He had recently asked Rachel's parents for permission, and he was planning to ask for her hand in marriage on Christmas Eve.
That and other details about Rachel's life were described in an obituary posted on the website of Munson-Lovetere Funeral Homes of Connecticut.
"Her presence and tremendous smile brightened any room she entered," it read.
Born in Waterbury, Rachel received her undergraduate degree from the University of Hartford and her Masters from Post University. She was working toward her Doctorate at the University of St. Joseph of Hartford.
Rachel loved karate, cooking, animals, photography and her two younger siblings.
"Her passion, however, was her occupation as a behavioral therapist working with children within the autism spectrum," the obituary read.
In lieu of flowers, it asked that donations be made to Autism Speaks, an advocay organization.
Olivia Engel, 6
Her favorite stuffed animal was a lamb; pink and purple were her favorite colors.
Olivia's family posted a statement on Facebook with those and other details about their beloved daughter.
"She was insightful for her age and had a great sense of humor. She laughed a lot and always lit up a room including the people around her. She was very creative and was always drawing and designing things," her family said.
Olivia took art and dance lessons, played tennis, soccer and swam. She was involved in Girl Scouts and musical theater. She loved school and did well in math and reading.
Her family described her as a "grateful child ... never greedy." Each night, Olivia led grace at the dinner table.
Dylan Hockley, 6
"To know him was to love him," Dylan's grandmother told the Boston Herald about her grandson.
Dylan loved video games, jumping on a trampoline, watching movies and munching garlic bread, she said. He had dimples, blue eyes and "the most mischievous little grin," Theresa Moretti told the newspaper.
She said her daughter and son-in-law moved to Connecticut from England and chose to live where they did because of the schools. Dylan had an older brother.
"He was an angel," Moretti told the Herald. "And I think that's now why he's in heaven."
Dawn Lafferty Hochsprung, 47
Hochsprung, who became Sandy Hook Elementary School's principal two years ago, was "really nice and very fun, but she was also very much a tough lady in the right sort of sense," friend Tom Prunty said. And the students loved her. "Even little kids know when someone cares about them, and that was her," Prunty said.
"I never saw her without a smile," said Aimee Seaver, mother of a first-grader.
Hochsprung lived in Woodbury, Connecticut, with her husband, two daughters and three stepdaughters.
The longtime career educator majored in special education for her bachelor's and master's degrees in the 1990s and had just entered the Ph.D. program at Esteves School of Education at the Sage Colleges in New York last summer. Hochsprung led a school district's strategic planning panel and was the recipient of a national school grant.
Her accomplishments included overseeing the installation of a new security system requiring every visitor to ring the front entrance's doorbell after the school doors locked at 9:30 a.m.
"My mom, Dawn Hochsprung, was taken tragically from me. But she went down in a blaze of glory that truly represents who she was," her daughter, Cristina Hassinger, tweeted.
Jesse Lewis, 6
Jesse loved math, riding horses and playing at his mom's farm, his father told the New York Post.
"He was just a happy boy," said Neil Heslin. "Everybody knew Jesse."
He told the newspaper his son was to make gingerbread houses at school Friday. Heslin was planning to help.
Instead, the last time he saw his son was when he dropped him off at school at 9 a.m.
"He was going to go places in life," Heslin told the Post.
Ana Marquez-Greene, 6
"1, 2, 3, ready and go," Ana counts down in a homemade video provided to CNN affiliate WTIC.
The girl in pigtails stands in front of a piano as her brother plays. Her voice is clear, bigger than her size. Ana smiles and waves.
Her father, Jimmy Greene, is a jazz musician. His representative released a statement on Ana's death, describing the little girl as "beautiful and vibrant."
"The family has requested privacy at this time of heartbreaking loss," it read. They "have asked us to relay their sincere gratitude for the outpouring of support and sympathy locally, nationally and internationally."
Grace McDonnell, 7
The ultimate "girly girl." Grace loved wearing pink and playing dress-up with jewelry, her grandmother told the Boston Herald.
As Mary Ann McDonnell spoke, she was surrounded by Christmas presents meant for Grace, Gracie, as she was sometimes called.
The little girl loved art, gymnastics, soccer and her small spaniel, Puddin', her grandmother said.
"She was a wonderful little girl. She was always smiling," McDonnell told the newspaper. "I think everybody should know about these beautiful children whose lives were cut short."
Anne Marie Murphy, 52
A hero. That's how a first responder reportedly described Murphy to her father.
He told Newsday that authorities told him her body was found in a classroom, covering young children killed in the shooting in an apparent attempt to shield them.
"She died doing what she loved. She was serving children and serving God," Murphy's mother, Alice McGowan, told the newspaper.
A married mother of four, Murphy was artistic and hardworking, her parents said.
"She was a happy soul," her mother told Newsday. "She was a very good daughter, a good mother, a good wife."
Emilie Parker, 6
She could "light up a room," Emilie's father said about his oldest daughter.
Robbie Parker described her as "bright, creative and very loving." Emilie was always willing to try new things, he said, except food. Her laugh was infectious.
"My daughter Emilie would be one of the first ones to be standing up and giving her love and support to all of those victims, because that is the type of person she is," said Parker.
He said she was "an exceptional artist and she always carried around her markers and pencils so she never missed an opportunity to draw a picture or make a card for someone."
"This world is a better place because she has been in it," Parker said.
Emilie's aunt described her niece as the "sweetest little girl I've ever known."
The family is devastated that "someone so beautiful and perfect is no longer going to be in our lives and for no reason," said Jill Cottle Garrett.
Emilie's father, who works as a physician's assistant in the newborn unit at the Danbury hospital, recalled his last conversation with his daughter was in Portuguese, a language he was teaching her.
"She said that she loved me, and I gave her a kiss and I was out the door," he said.
Noah Pozner, 6
"He had a huge heart and he was so much fun, a little bit rambunctious, lots of spirit," Noah's aunt told CNN. "He was really the light of the room."
Victoria Haller said her nephew loved playing with his cousins and siblings, especially his twin sister.
"He was a gorgeous, gorgeous boy and he could really get what he wanted just by batting those long eyelashes and looking at you with those big blue eyes. You really couldn't say no to him," she said.
His siblings don't know yet the exact way in which Noah passed away, Haller said.
"How do you tell them that's how their brother died?" she asked. "It's the unthinkable really."
Jessica Rekos, 6
Jessica loved everything about horses -- horse movies, horse books, drawing horses and writing stories about them.
She asked Santa this year for new cowgirl boots and a cowgirl hat. Her family had promised she could get her own horse when she turned 10.
"She was a creative, beautiful, little girl," her family said in a statement, describing Jessica as their "rock."
"She had an answer for everything, she didn't miss a trick, and she outsmarted us every time. We called her our little CEO for the way she carefully thought out and planned everything," they said. "We can not imagine our life without her."
Jessica also loved orca whales and playing with her two little brothers.
"We are mourning her loss, sharing our beautiful memories we have of her, and trying to help her brother Travis understand why he can't play with his best friend," her family said.
Lauren Rousseau, 30
Rousseau, a permanent substitute teacher at Sandy Hook Elementary, "wanted to be a teacher from before she even went to kindergarten," her mother said in a written statement Saturday. "We will miss her terribly and will take comfort knowing that she had achieved that dream," Teresa Rousseau said.
She grew up in Danbury, Connecticut, and earned a bachelor's degree from the University of Connecticut and a master's degree in elementary education from the University of Bridgeport.
Rousseau "worked as a substitute teacher in Danbury, New Milford and Newtown before she was hired in November as a permanent substitute teacher at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown," her mother said.
Mary Sherlach, 56
Sherlach, Sandy Hook Elementary's school psychologist, was with Hochsprung when they heard a "pop, pop, pop" sound around 9:30 a.m., a parent with both women at the time told CNN. Sherlach was shot to death after heading into the hall to find out what was happening.
"I ... am always ready to assist in problem-solving, intervention and prevention," Sherlach wrote on her website.
Sherlach earned her undergraduate degree in psychology at SUNY Cortland and a master's degree at Southern Connecticut State University. She worked as a rehabilitation assistant at a group home for disabled adults and as a community mental health placement specialist before becoming a school psychologist.
She worked in three Connecticut school systems before moving to Sandy Hook Elementary in 1994. During her time in Newtown, Sherlach kept busy as a member of numerous groups such as the district conflict resolution committee, safe school climate committee, crisis intervention team and student instructional team.
Sherlach and her husband for more than three decades lived in Trumbull, Connecticut, and, together, they were "proud parents" of two daughters in their late 20s. Her website listed her interests as gardening, reading and going to the theater.
Victoria Soto, 27
Soto, a first-grade teacher at Sandy Hook Elementary, moved her students away from the classroom door when she heard gunfire, which students initially "thought were hammers falling," according to the father of one of her students.
"That's when the gunman burst in, did not say a word, no facial expressions, and proceeded to shoot their teacher," said Robert Licata, whose 6-year-old son, Aiden, escaped by running past the shooter.
Soto's mother said her daughter was selfless.
"She would not hesitate to think to save anyone else before herself and especially children. She loved them more than life, and she would definitely put herself in front of them any day," Donna Soto told CNN's Piers Morgan.
Soto wanted to be a teacher since she was 3 and talked about her students with "such fondness and caring," her mother said.
Soto's cousin, James Wiltsie, said Soto "instinctively went into action when a monster came into her classroom and tried to protect the kids that she loved so much."
"We just want the public to know that Vicki was a hero," he said.
Soto had a dog she loved. The black lab Roxie spent Saturday wandering around Soto's apartment, apparently looking for her, relatives said.
Other victims
Daniel Barden, 7; Josephine Gay, 7; Madeleine Hsu, 6; Catherine Hubbard, 6; Chase Kowalski, 7; James Mattioli, 6; Jack Pinto, 6; Caroline Previdi, 6; Avielle Richman, 6; Benjamin Wheeler, 6; Allison Wyatt, 6.


To make this thread about your politics or religious views is wrong.  If you can't see that then I guess you never will.

May they rest in peace.
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Rerun
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« Reply #58 on: December 17, 2012, 05:42:33 PM »

Then stop talking about Gun Control.  It has nothing to do with this.  Let's focus on the lost little first graders. 

I volunteer for first grade once a week.  I'm glad I don't have to go back for a couple of weeks.  It is scary.

        :bow;
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« Reply #59 on: December 17, 2012, 05:50:40 PM »

STOP!

There are many bad things that are happening in this world right now. 

This is about:

(CNN) -- When a gunman opened fire inside a Newtown, Connecticut, elementary school Friday, he cut short 26 lives. Six women who worked at Sandy Hook Elementary were killed, in addition to 20 students -- twelve girls and eight boys -- according to state police.
Here are details about their lives:
Charlotte Bacon, 6
Charlotte was sweet, outgoing and full of energy, her grandmother told CNN affiliate WCCO in Minnesota.
"This is tough. This is surreal. You can't believe this could happen," Irene Hagen told the network. "The whole family is just devastated and we're all trying to come to terms with it."
She said her granddaughter loved school and dresses. Her hair was a mass of beautiful red curls.
"It's horrible. It's really horrible," Hagen told WCCO. "It's hard to believe that someone would kill children, innocent children."
Rachel D'Avino, 29
She likely didn't know it when she died, but her best friend was about to propose.
He had recently asked Rachel's parents for permission, and he was planning to ask for her hand in marriage on Christmas Eve.
That and other details about Rachel's life were described in an obituary posted on the website of Munson-Lovetere Funeral Homes of Connecticut.
"Her presence and tremendous smile brightened any room she entered," it read.
Born in Waterbury, Rachel received her undergraduate degree from the University of Hartford and her Masters from Post University. She was working toward her Doctorate at the University of St. Joseph of Hartford.
Rachel loved karate, cooking, animals, photography and her two younger siblings.
"Her passion, however, was her occupation as a behavioral therapist working with children within the autism spectrum," the obituary read.
In lieu of flowers, it asked that donations be made to Autism Speaks, an advocay organization.
Olivia Engel, 6
Her favorite stuffed animal was a lamb; pink and purple were her favorite colors.
Olivia's family posted a statement on Facebook with those and other details about their beloved daughter.
"She was insightful for her age and had a great sense of humor. She laughed a lot and always lit up a room including the people around her. She was very creative and was always drawing and designing things," her family said.
Olivia took art and dance lessons, played tennis, soccer and swam. She was involved in Girl Scouts and musical theater. She loved school and did well in math and reading.
Her family described her as a "grateful child ... never greedy." Each night, Olivia led grace at the dinner table.
Dylan Hockley, 6
"To know him was to love him," Dylan's grandmother told the Boston Herald about her grandson.
Dylan loved video games, jumping on a trampoline, watching movies and munching garlic bread, she said. He had dimples, blue eyes and "the most mischievous little grin," Theresa Moretti told the newspaper.
She said her daughter and son-in-law moved to Connecticut from England and chose to live where they did because of the schools. Dylan had an older brother.
"He was an angel," Moretti told the Herald. "And I think that's now why he's in heaven."
Dawn Lafferty Hochsprung, 47
Hochsprung, who became Sandy Hook Elementary School's principal two years ago, was "really nice and very fun, but she was also very much a tough lady in the right sort of sense," friend Tom Prunty said. And the students loved her. "Even little kids know when someone cares about them, and that was her," Prunty said.
"I never saw her without a smile," said Aimee Seaver, mother of a first-grader.
Hochsprung lived in Woodbury, Connecticut, with her husband, two daughters and three stepdaughters.
The longtime career educator majored in special education for her bachelor's and master's degrees in the 1990s and had just entered the Ph.D. program at Esteves School of Education at the Sage Colleges in New York last summer. Hochsprung led a school district's strategic planning panel and was the recipient of a national school grant.
Her accomplishments included overseeing the installation of a new security system requiring every visitor to ring the front entrance's doorbell after the school doors locked at 9:30 a.m.
"My mom, Dawn Hochsprung, was taken tragically from me. But she went down in a blaze of glory that truly represents who she was," her daughter, Cristina Hassinger, tweeted.
Jesse Lewis, 6
Jesse loved math, riding horses and playing at his mom's farm, his father told the New York Post.
"He was just a happy boy," said Neil Heslin. "Everybody knew Jesse."
He told the newspaper his son was to make gingerbread houses at school Friday. Heslin was planning to help.
Instead, the last time he saw his son was when he dropped him off at school at 9 a.m.
"He was going to go places in life," Heslin told the Post.
Ana Marquez-Greene, 6
"1, 2, 3, ready and go," Ana counts down in a homemade video provided to CNN affiliate WTIC.
The girl in pigtails stands in front of a piano as her brother plays. Her voice is clear, bigger than her size. Ana smiles and waves.
Her father, Jimmy Greene, is a jazz musician. His representative released a statement on Ana's death, describing the little girl as "beautiful and vibrant."
"The family has requested privacy at this time of heartbreaking loss," it read. They "have asked us to relay their sincere gratitude for the outpouring of support and sympathy locally, nationally and internationally."
Grace McDonnell, 7
The ultimate "girly girl." Grace loved wearing pink and playing dress-up with jewelry, her grandmother told the Boston Herald.
As Mary Ann McDonnell spoke, she was surrounded by Christmas presents meant for Grace, Gracie, as she was sometimes called.
The little girl loved art, gymnastics, soccer and her small spaniel, Puddin', her grandmother said.
"She was a wonderful little girl. She was always smiling," McDonnell told the newspaper. "I think everybody should know about these beautiful children whose lives were cut short."
Anne Marie Murphy, 52
A hero. That's how a first responder reportedly described Murphy to her father.
He told Newsday that authorities told him her body was found in a classroom, covering young children killed in the shooting in an apparent attempt to shield them.
"She died doing what she loved. She was serving children and serving God," Murphy's mother, Alice McGowan, told the newspaper.
A married mother of four, Murphy was artistic and hardworking, her parents said.
"She was a happy soul," her mother told Newsday. "She was a very good daughter, a good mother, a good wife."
Emilie Parker, 6
She could "light up a room," Emilie's father said about his oldest daughter.
Robbie Parker described her as "bright, creative and very loving." Emilie was always willing to try new things, he said, except food. Her laugh was infectious.
"My daughter Emilie would be one of the first ones to be standing up and giving her love and support to all of those victims, because that is the type of person she is," said Parker.
He said she was "an exceptional artist and she always carried around her markers and pencils so she never missed an opportunity to draw a picture or make a card for someone."
"This world is a better place because she has been in it," Parker said.
Emilie's aunt described her niece as the "sweetest little girl I've ever known."
The family is devastated that "someone so beautiful and perfect is no longer going to be in our lives and for no reason," said Jill Cottle Garrett.
Emilie's father, who works as a physician's assistant in the newborn unit at the Danbury hospital, recalled his last conversation with his daughter was in Portuguese, a language he was teaching her.
"She said that she loved me, and I gave her a kiss and I was out the door," he said.
Noah Pozner, 6
"He had a huge heart and he was so much fun, a little bit rambunctious, lots of spirit," Noah's aunt told CNN. "He was really the light of the room."
Victoria Haller said her nephew loved playing with his cousins and siblings, especially his twin sister.
"He was a gorgeous, gorgeous boy and he could really get what he wanted just by batting those long eyelashes and looking at you with those big blue eyes. You really couldn't say no to him," she said.
His siblings don't know yet the exact way in which Noah passed away, Haller said.
"How do you tell them that's how their brother died?" she asked. "It's the unthinkable really."
Jessica Rekos, 6
Jessica loved everything about horses -- horse movies, horse books, drawing horses and writing stories about them.
She asked Santa this year for new cowgirl boots and a cowgirl hat. Her family had promised she could get her own horse when she turned 10.
"She was a creative, beautiful, little girl," her family said in a statement, describing Jessica as their "rock."
"She had an answer for everything, she didn't miss a trick, and she outsmarted us every time. We called her our little CEO for the way she carefully thought out and planned everything," they said. "We can not imagine our life without her."
Jessica also loved orca whales and playing with her two little brothers.
"We are mourning her loss, sharing our beautiful memories we have of her, and trying to help her brother Travis understand why he can't play with his best friend," her family said.
Lauren Rousseau, 30
Rousseau, a permanent substitute teacher at Sandy Hook Elementary, "wanted to be a teacher from before she even went to kindergarten," her mother said in a written statement Saturday. "We will miss her terribly and will take comfort knowing that she had achieved that dream," Teresa Rousseau said.
She grew up in Danbury, Connecticut, and earned a bachelor's degree from the University of Connecticut and a master's degree in elementary education from the University of Bridgeport.
Rousseau "worked as a substitute teacher in Danbury, New Milford and Newtown before she was hired in November as a permanent substitute teacher at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown," her mother said.
Mary Sherlach, 56
Sherlach, Sandy Hook Elementary's school psychologist, was with Hochsprung when they heard a "pop, pop, pop" sound around 9:30 a.m., a parent with both women at the time told CNN. Sherlach was shot to death after heading into the hall to find out what was happening.
"I ... am always ready to assist in problem-solving, intervention and prevention," Sherlach wrote on her website.
Sherlach earned her undergraduate degree in psychology at SUNY Cortland and a master's degree at Southern Connecticut State University. She worked as a rehabilitation assistant at a group home for disabled adults and as a community mental health placement specialist before becoming a school psychologist.
She worked in three Connecticut school systems before moving to Sandy Hook Elementary in 1994. During her time in Newtown, Sherlach kept busy as a member of numerous groups such as the district conflict resolution committee, safe school climate committee, crisis intervention team and student instructional team.
Sherlach and her husband for more than three decades lived in Trumbull, Connecticut, and, together, they were "proud parents" of two daughters in their late 20s. Her website listed her interests as gardening, reading and going to the theater.
Victoria Soto, 27
Soto, a first-grade teacher at Sandy Hook Elementary, moved her students away from the classroom door when she heard gunfire, which students initially "thought were hammers falling," according to the father of one of her students.
"That's when the gunman burst in, did not say a word, no facial expressions, and proceeded to shoot their teacher," said Robert Licata, whose 6-year-old son, Aiden, escaped by running past the shooter.
Soto's mother said her daughter was selfless.
"She would not hesitate to think to save anyone else before herself and especially children. She loved them more than life, and she would definitely put herself in front of them any day," Donna Soto told CNN's Piers Morgan.
Soto wanted to be a teacher since she was 3 and talked about her students with "such fondness and caring," her mother said.
Soto's cousin, James Wiltsie, said Soto "instinctively went into action when a monster came into her classroom and tried to protect the kids that she loved so much."
"We just want the public to know that Vicki was a hero," he said.
Soto had a dog she loved. The black lab Roxie spent Saturday wandering around Soto's apartment, apparently looking for her, relatives said.
Other victims
Daniel Barden, 7; Josephine Gay, 7; Madeleine Hsu, 6; Catherine Hubbard, 6; Chase Kowalski, 7; James Mattioli, 6; Jack Pinto, 6; Caroline Previdi, 6; Avielle Richman, 6; Benjamin Wheeler, 6; Allison Wyatt, 6.


To make this thread about your politics or religious views is wrong.  If you can't see that then I guess you never will.

May they rest in peace.

Chill out YL, that is bad for your health. Everyone is angered and shocked by these tragic events that sadly could have been prevented.  If Rerun and Moosemom and even me want to talk openly about these issues, that is the IHD way YL in the OFF TOPIC, DISCUSS ANYTHING YOU
WANT SECTION. We are all sickened and angered by the loss of innocent life which some of us likewise feel about abortion. Sorry, but if you can't handle discussions on these issues, perhaps you need to take a time out.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 06:16:31 PM by Hemodoc » Logged

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« Reply #60 on: December 17, 2012, 08:36:04 PM »

He wrote the post, I think he has every right to say that!
If you want to discuss those things, make your own damn post for that purpose.

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« Reply #61 on: December 17, 2012, 08:43:22 PM »

Then stop talking about Gun Control.  It has nothing to do with this.  Let's focus on the lost little first graders. 

I volunteer for first grade once a week.  I'm glad I don't have to go back for a couple of weeks.  It is scary.

        :bow;

Well said as always Rerun. God bless.
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Peter Laird, MD
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Diagnosed with IgA nephropathy 1998
Incenter Dialysis starting 2-1-2007
Self Care in Center from 4-15-2008 to 6-2-2009
Started  Home Care with NxStage 6-2-2009 (Qb 370, FF 45%, 40L)

All clinical and treatment related issues discussed on this forum are for informational purposes only.  You must always secure your own medical teams approval for all treatment options before applying any discussions on this site to your own circumstances.
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« Reply #62 on: December 17, 2012, 10:38:50 PM »

He wrote the post, I think he has every right to say that!
If you want to discuss those things, make your own damn post for that purpose.

I spend hours combining threads about the same thing.  We can all post our opinions without starting a new thread each time.  Just because you don't agree you don't have to start a new thread. 
Epoman use to tell people to go start their own site if they didn't like the way he did it.  He had that right.  It was his.  We share his site.

Emotions are high on this subject and maybe my brain strayed to killing the innocent.  In my mind that isn't too far off the subject but ....  I won't mention it again.  Just the big pink elephant in the room.  Okay?

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« Reply #63 on: December 18, 2012, 02:25:16 AM »

If I get another complaint about this thread I will lock it.
I honestly cannot go through reading it all.
I have avoided the news because it's killing me to hear any more about those little angels that were murdered by a nut job.
If you all cannot find a way to discuss things without dragging the admins into it, you'll lose the option.
There are to be NO ad hominem attacks:
1. appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason.
2. attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.
Got it? Good.

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Please watch her video: http://youtu.be/D9ZuVJ_s80Y
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« Reply #64 on: December 18, 2012, 05:50:04 AM »

I feel bad for all, but my heart tugs for the little guy Noah who had a twin.  Also, I'd like to know if any parent lost their only child.  That too would just crush their whole lives.

The first parent to speak said right off that he had set up a Facebook Fund page.  I thought that was a little odd to raise money the first day.  But, maybe they couldn't even afford a funeral or something.  I don't do Facebook so I can't go see.  I'm sure there will be other places to donate.

I'm sorry if I hurt someone further.  I just think too much.     ???

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« Reply #65 on: December 18, 2012, 09:58:03 AM »

There are a lot of interesting comments in this thread that I'd like to respond to, so pardon me if this post gets a bit lengthy (but y'all should be used to that by now!  My reputation for being wordy will remain untarnished.)

@SimonDog, thank you for the suggestion to Google "Three Arms Competition".  I did.  My husband has a work colleague who is an ex-police officer and is an avid shooting competitor, and I've asked said husband to ask said colleague what sort of weapons he uses in competitions and how he keeps those weapons safe.  He has a teenaged boy and a young daughter at home.  I also want to ask if he sees using these weapons for self-defense.

Like I said, I can understand the fun one can have at such competitions, but must these competitions involve weapons used by the military?  Can gun enthusiasts not find enjoyment using less lethal, less automatic weapons?  Is your entertainment a more worthy cause than the effort to make our society less lethal?

Re violent video games, it strikes me that there are vulnerable people for whom sitting alone for hours on end playing these sorts of games is just a recipe for disaster.  Many people play these sorts of games, and many people watch violent movies, but not all of them shoot children.  Just as alcohol or recreational drugs are well tolerated by many, there are those for whom these substances lead to addiction, ruining their lives and the lives of their families in the process.

The fundamental question is whether or not we ban or inhibit access to violent instruments in our society, whether they be movies, video games or shooting competitions, because they can be accessed by people who become warped by them. 

I saw an interview with a forensic psychologist yesterday, and he said something very interesting.  He said that one common thread he has seen linking these shooters is that they have thrived on a culture of destruction.  Violence destroys.  He suggested that we need to recognize this trait in these vulnerable individuals and help them to create, not destroy.  I thought that was an interesting opinion.

Re school security, Sandy Hook apparently had just upgraded its security protocols; no one could enter the building after 9:30 AM without being buzzed in and identified.  But this shooter just shot through and destroyed a window, which shows that if someone wants to kill, chances are they will find a way to do so.

I personally think it is unwise and ineffective to arm school principals or teachers.  Perhaps they do not want to handle firearms, and forcing them to do so would be a restriction of their freedom.  Forcing them to undergo the required training is unfair and an infringment upon their personal liberty and maybe even their religious freedom if they feel that guns are immoral.  If you want an armed presence at each school, then school districts should work with their respective community's police department and arrange to have a trained professional patrolling the outside of each school AND daycare facility.  Now, this will be very expensive, but I have no doubt that each of us would be willing to pay more in school/property taxes to defray the costs, right?  Right?

I fail to understand why anyone here would feel the need to go and tattle to the admins for something they read here.  You'd think that after the horrific health problems we have to cope with, we'd have cultivated a little more toughness.
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« Reply #66 on: December 18, 2012, 10:08:03 AM »

Then stop talking about Gun Control.  It has nothing to do with this.  Let's focus on the lost little first graders. 


Talking about gun control has everything to do with this.  Talking about how we deal with the mentally ill has everything to do with this.  Talking about these issues is the result of focussing on the lost little first graders.  We need to look at our society's thrill with violence and ask ourselves why we get so much entertainment from violent TV shows and such.

I saw an interview last night with a different forensic psychiatric than the one I mentioned in my previous post, and she was asked why these shooters were always male.  She said that unfortunately, girls can be the perpetrators of violence, too, but that they tend to turn inward.  They engage in self-harming activites whereas boys tend to throw their rage out at others.  In talking about young men and violent images, she said that many of these shooters see themselves and are seen by others to be less than ideally masculine.  So these violent characters become images of what they want to be.  Who wants to be a nerdy boy when you can order body armor online, grab your mother's weapons and go out and shoot people just like the manly men they see doing the same on TV?
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« Reply #67 on: December 18, 2012, 10:15:09 AM »

Some People are being kind of unreasonable right now. Yes, it was tragic, terrible, and I still cant believe it happened. I wish it hadnt happened, and I too was scared and saddened, and worried... but then reason set in, and I was brought to the conclusion that we need to continue to live our lives. Not only for our own sake, but because We CAN. There are people who died from these tragedies, and their families, friends, and communities, who lost a piece of themselves because of these tragedies. Yes, please, pray for them or whatever you believe. Yes, mourn for them. Worry that it could happen, because it could, BUT hope that it wont. And stop fighting and arguing about things we cannot change. Why do that? Love one another and be happy that we will live another day, and our families are whole, because not all have that luxury right now.

Maybe merely mourning is not enough.  And why get stuck into that trap of falling into inaction because these are things that "cannot change"?  How many times in our history have people defied the odds and have indeed changed things that everyone else said could not be changed?  Are we not a community here at IHD who are working hard to change the status quo that is dialysis as we know it?  How many people said that slavery was here to stay or that women could never get the vote?  We are not a nation that has ever sat back and done nothing because we truly thought that things would never change.  Change is the essence of mankind.  And change is happening at a faster and faster rate.

I can't help but remember that it wasn't all that long ago that no one really thought twice about drinking and driving.  Just about everyone smoked.  No one thought those things would ever change, but they did, and now smoking and drunk driving are socially unacceptable, and texting while driving is swiftly becoming unacceptable as well.  Our fascination with violence coupled with a general sweeping under the rug of mental illness CAN change. 

Yes, we should continue to live our lives, but we should also strive to make changes so that our lives, and the lives of our fellow Americans, will get better and safer.
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« Reply #68 on: December 18, 2012, 10:37:56 AM »


Dear Moosemom, that is exactly the point and in retrospect, warning signs in the Aurora shooter and this one as well as the Arizona shooter appear to have been over looked and ignored. There are unwanted effects of gun bans such as increased violence evident in England and Australia since their handgun bans. Germany took stringent action against guns after their 2002 school massacre which did not prevent their horrific 2009 school massacre nor did stringent gun laws prevent the horrific Norway massacre as well.

I was living in the UK at the time of Dunblane, and there was universal approval of a handgun ban after that horrible event. 

It is probably true that there has been an increase in violence in general in the UK since Dunblane, but there is no evidence that this increase is firearm related.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/17/world/europe/dunblane-lessons/index.html

True, strict gun control laws didn't prevent Germany's massacre of 2009 or the one in Norway, but my God, those are just TWO incidents in two separate countries over a period of YEARS whereas here in the US, how many of these horrible events have happened just in the past 12 months?  There really is no comparison, Hemodoc, and thanks so much for so clearly illustrating just how warped our gun culture really is.

What is it about our culture that makes us so enamoured of guns and so vulnerable to this sort of mass shooting?  Perhaps it is true that guns don't kill people, rather, it's people that kill people, and if that is so, what is wrong with our people?  And before anyone starts chiming in with the excuse that America has moved away from God, please keep in mind that both England and Germany are far more secular than the US.  Yet we are the ones who are constantly bombarded with ever increasing stories about mass murder at Sikh temples, cinemas, high schools, elementary schools, college campuses and even military bases.  Really, what is wrong with us?


Quote
Since it is evident that gun laws alone do not prevent these mass murders, note that CT already has an assault weapons ban since 1994 in effect today, is it not prudent for security evaluations of all American schools implementing security measures effective in preventing or delaying mass shootings? The police response was excellent, but came minutes too late. Security measures that prevent access to class rooms themselves with simple measures to secure the room itself as a safe zone are surprising affordable and easy to to engage. The CT assault weapon ban is one more failure in a long list of gun control failures.

I truly don't know...is not the Bushmaster this kid used an "assault weapon"?  For what purpose is a Bushmaster used by an ordinary civilian?  I would have thought that one could use any sort of gun to assault anyone, so I'm not sure what is meant by "assault weapon".  SHES had just begun implementing new security protocols, but this kid just shot out a window like I explained in a previous post.  I'm not entirely sure which "simple measures" you are proposing.  Could you be more specific?

Quote
We openly took our hunting rifles and shotguns to school in the 70's when mass shootings were unheard of. Switzerland has the highest level of gun ownership in the world yet they have a low murder rate and low levels of crime in general.

It is no longer the 70's, and Switzerland is not the US.  Like I've said, I agree that guns by themselves is not the root cause of our violent society, but guns added into the mix just magnifies the problem.  There is something wrong with our culture. 

Quote
I fear greatly over reaction to such events leading to gun confiscation which is a long standing objective of this president that we as gun owners knew would rear it's ugly head after his reelection. As always, Obama never wastes a crises to implement his known objectives.

The overreaction comes from those who prize their guns above all else and have gone out to buy even more weapons, especially since the NRA is so effective in scaring people into thinking that Obama has some "known objective."  This is when this discussion starts sounding a little irrational, sadly.

Essentially, it is all about money.  The NRA is all about money.  The entertainment industry is all about money.  Neither of these entities have any financial incentive to curb gun manufacturing or the making of yet more violent entertainment.  The freedom and liberty to make money at all costs, no matter what the societal consequences may be.

Quote
With all of the gang bangers who openly ignore the laws in place already and possess many weapons illegally today, is taking guns away from law abiding citizens the correct response?  I don't believe so, but that is what the media and the politicians will promote, yet the story of England, Canada and Australia  among other nations does not support that outcome.

Sadly, I don't think most Americans care that much about "gang bangers" because they're a world away.  Most gang activity revolves around drugs, which of course begs the question of whether or not gang activity would be diminished by the legalization of drugs.  But that is a different debate.

I truly do not know why you keep bringing up countries such as England, Canada and Australia because none of those countries have the cultural and history link to gun ownership that we do here in the US.  I really do not think that it is accurate to draw any parallels.  It's like comparing apples to oranges.

Quote
It is time instead to secure our schools with simple security measures which are known to be effective as well as improve intervention strategies for known or suspected mentally ill kids at risk of this behavior.

Specifics, please, along with ideas on how to fund them.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 10:59:22 AM by MooseMom » Logged

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« Reply #69 on: December 18, 2012, 11:15:08 AM »


Dear Moosemom, that is exactly the point and in retrospect, warning signs in the Aurora shooter and this one as well as the Arizona shooter appear to have been over looked and ignored. There are unwanted effects of gun bans such as increased violence evident in England and Australia since their handgun bans. Germany took stringent action against guns after their 2002 school massacre which did not prevent their horrific 2009 school massacre nor did stringent gun laws prevent the horrific Norway massacre as well.

I was living in the UK at the time of Dunblane, and there was universal approval of a handgun ban after that horrible event. 

It is probably true that there has been an increase in violence in general in the UK since Dunblane, but there is no evidence that this increase firearm related.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/17/world/europe/dunblane-lessons/index.html

True, strict gun control laws didn't prevent Germany's massacre of 2009 or the one in Norway, but my God, those are just TWO incidents in two separate countries over a period of YEARS whereas here in the US, how many of these horrible events have happened just in the past 12 months?  There really is no comparison, Hemodoc, and thanks so much for so clearly illustrating just how warped our gun culture really is.

What is it about our culture that makes us so enamoured of guns and so vulnerable to this sort of mass shooting?  Perhaps it is true that guns don't kill people, rather, it's people that kill people, and if that is so, what is wrong with our people?  And before anyone starts chiming in with the excuse that America has moved away from God, please keep in mind that both England and Germany are far more secular than the US.  Yet we are the ones who are constantly bombarded with ever increasing stories about mass murder at Sikh temples, cinemas, high schools, elementary schools, college campuses and even military bases.  Really, what is wrong with us?


Since it is evident that gun laws alone do not prevent these mass murders, note that CT already has an assault weapons ban since 1994 in effect today, is it not prudent for security evaluations of all American schools implementing security measures effective in preventing or delaying mass shootings? The police response was excellent, but came minutes too late. Security measures that prevent access to class rooms themselves with simple measures to secure the room itself as a safe zone are surprising affordable and easy to to engage. The CT assault weapon ban is one more failure in a long list of gun control failures.

We openly took our hunting rifles and shotguns to school in the 70's when mass shootings were unheard of. Switzerland has the highest level of gun ownership in the world yet they have a low murder rate and low levels of crime in general. If we evaluate these issues objectively, it cannot be shown that guns by themselves are the root cause of our violent society. I fear greatly over reaction to such events leading to gun confiscation which is a long standing objective of this president that we as gun owners knew would rear it's ugly head after his reelection. As always, Obama never wastes a crises to implement his known objectives.  Secretary Clinton already supported the UN small arms treaty before this tragedy before us, in fact, that was signed one day after his election.

With all of the gang bangers who openly ignore the laws in place already and possess many weapons illegally today, is taking guns away from law abiding citizens the correct response?  I don't believe so, but that is what the media and the politicians will promote, yet the story of England, Canada and Australia  among other nations does not support that outcome.

It is time instead to secure our schools with simple security measures which are known to be effective as well as improve intervention strategies for known or suspected mentally ill kids at risk of this behavior.
[/quote]

Dear Moosemom,

Actually folks have studied the issue of whether gun bans will reduce homicide and suicide. The surprising findings are that there is no correlation between gun ownership and homicide and suicide rates in the countries studied. Not just a fly by night review either, it was published in the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy.

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

So, if we are going to talk of killing of innocent children which does indeed include abortion and gun control, then let's look at objective evidence. The evidence is that counter to all prevailing popular attitudes, gun control is an utter failure in accomplishing what people want it to accomplish. Indeed, CT already has an assault weapons ban in place since 1994 that did not prevent this tragedy.

Gun owners do have serious questions on how the mother allowed access to these weapons which appears to be the single most important failure in this horrible story. Secondly, reports note worsening behavior with the shooter the week before this occurred. Mental health intervention at that point may have saved not only the mother's life, but that of 26 other people and her son.

Focussing only on assault weapons bans and gun control over looks the reality that CT ALREADY has these provisions in place. These horrible events are a relatively new phenomena that were almost unheard of a little more than a generation ago. The Aurora CO shooter, Arizona and this one were all known to have serious mental conditions that were not properly treated. In the case of the Aurora shootings, the man was kicked out of his university due to concerns of possible violence. Surely, taking that one step further to alert the police with simple checks of any weapons recently bought could have secured a search warrant that would have prevented that tragedy as well.

In all these cases, there were warning signs ignored by those who could have intervened including the Virginia tech tragedy. Yet, the emotional response is to state let's take away all of the guns instead of focussing on some very simple coordination between the mental health and the authorities to put these folks on the radar. If one of these troubled kids starts buying weapons, that would be probably cause for further intervention. All of these cases mentioned have many red flag warnings.
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« Reply #70 on: December 18, 2012, 11:29:33 AM »

There are a lot of interesting comments in this thread that I'd like to respond to, so pardon me if this post gets a bit lengthy (but y'all should be used to that by now!  My reputation for being wordy will remain untarnished.)

@SimonDog, thank you for the suggestion to Google "Three Arms Competition".  I did.  My husband has a work colleague who is an ex-police officer and is an avid shooting competitor, and I've asked said husband to ask said colleague what sort of weapons he uses in competitions and how he keeps those weapons safe.  He has a teenaged boy and a young daughter at home.  I also want to ask if he sees using these weapons for self-defense.

Like I said, I can understand the fun one can have at such competitions, but must these competitions involve weapons used by the military?  Can gun enthusiasts not find enjoyment using less lethal, less automatic weapons?  Is your entertainment a more worthy cause than the effort to make our society less lethal?

Re violent video games, it strikes me that there are vulnerable people for whom sitting alone for hours on end playing these sorts of games is just a recipe for disaster.  Many people play these sorts of games, and many people watch violent movies, but not all of them shoot children.  Just as alcohol or recreational drugs are well tolerated by many, there are those for whom these substances lead to addiction, ruining their lives and the lives of their families in the process.

The fundamental question is whether or not we ban or inhibit access to violent instruments in our society, whether they be movies, video games or shooting competitions, because they can be accessed by people who become warped by them. 

I saw an interview with a forensic psychologist yesterday, and he said something very interesting.  He said that one common thread he has seen linking these shooters is that they have thrived on a culture of destruction.  Violence destroys.  He suggested that we need to recognize this trait in these vulnerable individuals and help them to create, not destroy.  I thought that was an interesting opinion.

Re school security, Sandy Hook apparently had just upgraded its security protocols; no one could enter the building after 9:30 AM without being buzzed in and identified.  But this shooter just shot through and destroyed a window, which shows that if someone wants to kill, chances are they will find a way to do so.

I personally think it is unwise and ineffective to arm school principals or teachers.  Perhaps they do not want to handle firearms, and forcing them to do so would be a restriction of their freedom.  Forcing them to undergo the required training is unfair and an infringment upon their personal liberty and maybe even their religious freedom if they feel that guns are immoral.  If you want an armed presence at each school, then school districts should work with their respective community's police department and arrange to have a trained professional patrolling the outside of each school AND daycare facility.  Now, this will be very expensive, but I have no doubt that each of us would be willing to pay more in school/property taxes to defray the costs, right?  Right?

I fail to understand why anyone here would feel the need to go and tattle to the admins for something they read here.  You'd think that after the horrific health problems we have to cope with, we'd have cultivated a little more toughness.

Dear Moosemom,

In the last few years, we have had a huge problem with smash and grab home robberies in our neighborhood. We added security gates front and back on our front door and sliding glass door in the back, a few selected window bars and on the rest of the at risk windows, ACE security glass that makes the glass shatter proof but also bullet resistant. The ACE security glass is very affordable and could be placed on all windows and doors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STZb-98A2BM

In addition, most hospitals already have card access systems preventing unwanted entry and that is standard for most hospitals. Simply upgrading schools to the security systems in place in hospitals would be very easy to implement and cost effective.

Lastly, the best security measure is trained and armed security personnel which is also a hallmark of hospital security.  There is a reason not discussed often outside of gun forums in that schools are part of the gun free zones that these killers gravitate to. With over 40 states offering accessible concealed weapon permits to law abiding and trained citizens, one area of concern are the number of gun free zones that paradoxically become killing zones instead.

The Aurora movie theater episode demonstrates this graphically since some of those shot in the theater were CCW permit holders and active duty military. Gun free zones are one of the new advents in the last generation that did not exist when I was a kid. Where I went to high school, we brought our hunting rifles to school and no one ever shot up the school. As paradoxical as it sounds, allowing law abiding citizens who have CCW permits to carry in schools as well would send a message to these cowards that there may be well armed people and not just little kids and women who cannot fight back against guns that they alone possess. Once again, the one single element that all of these shootings have in common is that they occur in gun free zones. Are you really safer where you see those guns not allowed signs?

By the way, gang activity is NOT a remote issue to many of us especially living in southern CA. About 5 years ago, through section 8 welfare funding housing, a "family" moved into a home three doors down from our house with about 20 kids and 5 adults. Yes, that is what I said, 20 kids to the best we were able to count all of them. Fights were almost a daily occurrence in front of my house when school got out. I witnessed my only drug deal in person about 20 feet away from with a a 13 yo kid looking right at me. I saw something white and then something green. This 13 yo kid walked with the swagger that only comes with an illegal gun hidden in his baggy pants.

A couple of the adults were arrested for several drug and gang violations but HUD and the town did nothing to clean up this known gang infested home. Our only salvation was the owner foreclosing and loosing the home. Gangs and gang violence are NOT a theoretical risk at all.

How do you think these gangs will respond to further gun control initiatives?  Think about it, who will not have guns in that situation? Yes, folks like me living 3 doors down from a known and active LA gang banging family. That is what is at risk, leaving folks unprotected while the criminals are armed to the teeth. Nothing theoretical about the situation at all.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 11:44:36 AM by Hemodoc » Logged

Peter Laird, MD
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Self Care in Center from 4-15-2008 to 6-2-2009
Started  Home Care with NxStage 6-2-2009 (Qb 370, FF 45%, 40L)

All clinical and treatment related issues discussed on this forum are for informational purposes only.  You must always secure your own medical teams approval for all treatment options before applying any discussions on this site to your own circumstances.
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« Reply #71 on: December 18, 2012, 12:02:33 PM »

I frankly am frustrated MM has to go on and on about her way and considers no one else is right.  Maybe there would be a teacher that would jump at the chance to have a gun. Right now they are not allowed.  Their freedom has been taken away.  She just assumes all teachers would cower at the thought.  It doesn't have to be all or none ya know.  Those that feel comfortable can do it.

People put stickers on their home that they have a security system.  When they don't.  Know why?  It detours thieves.  If there is a bad guy he won't go into a packed theater where he knows good guys have guns.

I'd like to put a sign in my yard that said.  My house has guns.... the neighbor doesn't. 

I don't really like guns but I sure want to be with someone who does if confronted.
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« Reply #72 on: December 18, 2012, 12:27:38 PM »

I frankly am frustrated MM has to go on and on about her way and considers no one else is right.  Maybe there would be a teacher that would jump at the chance to have a gun. Right now they are not allowed.  Their freedom has been taken away.  She just assumes all teachers would cower at the thought.  It doesn't have to be all or none ya know.  Those that feel comfortable can do it.

People put stickers on their home that they have a security system.  When they don't.  Know why?  It detours thieves.  If there is a bad guy he won't go into a packed theater where he knows good guys have guns.

I'd like to put a sign in my yard that said.  My house has guns.... the neighbor doesn't. 

I don't really like guns but I sure want to be with someone who does if confronted.

Dear Rerun,

In the states where they have concealed carry permits such as ID and WA state, a very small percentage of people actually take advantage of this privilege. Yet, just the unknown of who carries and who doesn't is enough to serve as a huge deterrent in crimes. Here in Idaho, nearly half of my friends carry on a daily basis.

Teachers should NOT have to be required to carry in schools if they don't wish to exercise that right. It is not for everyone and NO ONE that does not have the training and experience should ever consider doing so. Only one school district in Texas arms teachers to date in this nation that I am aware. Not really the issue.

In CA, most of the schools already have a deputy sheriff assigned to the school or a couple of deputies in high risk areas.

As far as signs stating you are armed paradoxically makes you a target since stealing firearms is one of the items looked for in home robberies. Keeping a low profile with weapons is mandatory. No need to advertise them to the creeps. I do have my ADT signs outside though.

Once again, there are a lot of simple and cost effective security measures that schools can adopt just as we have done in hospitals that will make them more secure. The assault weapon ban in CT did not prevent this tragedy. It is time to open our eyes that these events can occur and plan for the worst case scenario when implementing security programs in schools. A buzzer system with bullet resistant doors could have been all that was needed to save 26 innocent lives last week. Plain glass alone didn't augment the buzzer system.
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Peter Laird, MD
www.hemodoc.info
Diagnosed with IgA nephropathy 1998
Incenter Dialysis starting 2-1-2007
Self Care in Center from 4-15-2008 to 6-2-2009
Started  Home Care with NxStage 6-2-2009 (Qb 370, FF 45%, 40L)

All clinical and treatment related issues discussed on this forum are for informational purposes only.  You must always secure your own medical teams approval for all treatment options before applying any discussions on this site to your own circumstances.
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« Reply #73 on: December 18, 2012, 12:28:34 PM »

Hemodoc, I absolutely agree that any discussion about gun control should also include discussions about mental illness, how it can be better identified and how it can be better treated.  Referring yet again to yet another interview I saw last night with a health professional, it was pointed out that many of these troubled youths ARE referred to mental health professionals, yet all too often, they have time only to prescribe meds but not the time to monitor their patients.  I'm sure you already know that the times when these patients are most vulnerable are when they start a new med or they come off of an old one.  Yet the resources are apparently not there that would pay for more monitoring of these people at these times.

There are still too many uninsured people in this country who have no access to mental health screening or treatment.  Out of curiosity, I looked at my own EPHP, and it would pay for only 12 mental health consults in one policy year.  I would suggest that for many patients, this might not be enough.

I did see an interview who said that Adam Lanza had been identified as being "at risk" and had been monitored in his early years, but as he reached the higher grades in school, he seemed to fall out of the system somehow.  What happened in this regard needs to be identified and mended.

I would agree with your perception that tragedies of this sort just didn't seem to happen, at least with this much frequency, a generation ago, so that begs the question, why is that?  The 60's was a time of social unrest and violence; political assassinations, civil rights riots, anti-war demonstrations, Kent State.  Back then, people had guns and people suffered from mental illness.  But people didn't shoot kindergarteners.  What do you think has changed?

As for school security, I am not sure that implementing an access card system would have prevented what happened in CT.  There was already a restricted access protocol in place.  Instead, Adam Lanza just shot out a window and got in that way. 

As much as it saddens me, I am inclined to think that armed security guards might be the only measure left to us to prevent this type of thing happening again.  Until we find other solutions (which will be expensive and won't be effective for many years to come), in the short term we might just have to have armed guards patrolling any facility in which there are children.  Each state is going to have to find the funds to make that happen because the Federal government isn't going to be able to take on that particular financial responsibility.  How are schools funded in your state, Hemodoc?  Here, local schools are funded by property taxes.  Would you be willing to pay a higher property tax rate to fund this sort of security at every school/day care facility?

I'm curious...what measures did you take to protect yourself from the "gang" that moved into that house three doors down from you?  Did your wife know how to safely handle and effectively fire a weapon?  Did you both carry a weapon whenever you left your home? 

Lastly, I just heard on the news that people who are on the terrorist "no-fly" list are still legally permitted to have and/or purchase guns.  This surprised me. 
http://cnsnews.com/blog/terence-p-jeffrey/us-allowed-terrorists-no-fly-list-buy-guns

I suspect that "gun control" may mean different things to different people.  I can't believe that responsible gun owners are OK with people who are barred in the US from getting on a plane being able to purchase deadly weapons in this country.
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"Eggs are so inadequate, don't you think?  I mean, they ought to be able to become anything, but instead you always get a chicken.  Or a duck.  Or whatever they're programmed to be.  You never get anything interesting, like regret, or the middle of last week."
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« Reply #74 on: December 18, 2012, 12:36:35 PM »

I frankly am frustrated MM has to go on and on about her way and considers no one else is right.  Maybe there would be a teacher that would jump at the chance to have a gun. Right now they are not allowed.  Their freedom has been taken away.  She just assumes all teachers would cower at the thought.  It doesn't have to be all or none ya know.  Those that feel comfortable can do it.


LOL!  And here I was just agreeing with Hemodoc that focussing on gun control only without also considering mental health issues would be an ineffective way of dealing with the problem.   :rofl;

No, I am making no assumptions about what teachers want or don't want.  If there are teachers who are willing to go through the training and be properly certified, then that's fine.  But before we go that route, we need to be very careful about how we would allow there to be storage of weapons and ammunition in an elementary school room that would keep such materiel safe from children yet still easily and quickly accessible.

So Rerun, if you were a grade school teacher in a class of, say, 20 6 year olds, how would you yourself get to your gun quickly yet still keep it safe from inquisitive little boys?  Would you keep that gun in your desk already loaded?  What kind of weapon would you have?

Do you think that most parents would be OK with their child's schoolteacher keeping a loaded rifle at her desk?

At any rate, thank you for your kind words.
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"Eggs are so inadequate, don't you think?  I mean, they ought to be able to become anything, but instead you always get a chicken.  Or a duck.  Or whatever they're programmed to be.  You never get anything interesting, like regret, or the middle of last week."
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