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gothiclovemonkey
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« Reply #100 on: December 19, 2012, 03:51:11 PM »

Gothic, it sounds like what we are thinking could or should be done, your school did it 10 years ago.  Maybe there was still violence but the kids came out alive at the end of the day.
It was a pain in the ass too, but i agree, it probably did help... sadly, that was in place for the students, not for intruders. there wasnt there all day every day, just when we came in. they didnt trust us lol


I didn't want to read this thread.  It is too incredibly sad and unthinkable.  Death and funerals should not happen with children.  I was a teacher for 20 years.  I am at my grandkids school 3 days a week.  They have a good security system, but not much is going to stop a madman.

I don't understand the arguements here.  Most posts are focusing on everything but simply mourning the loss of these innocent children.    If you want to argue gun control, start a thread about it.  But the anger between members regarding such a horrific act seems very childish.  Everyone wants to be right.  It isn't a contest.  They are your opinions -- each are right or wrong. 

Can we put the arguing aside, pull together as a group and give the respect these children deserve?  Pray, send positive energy, weep for the families who are burying their children.

You don't know how much time this takes up with the admin team and rumor is, it won't take much more to close this down.   Play nice.  You are alive and can hug your children tonight.
:cuddle; Thats exactly the point i tried to make way earlier in the thread, it was to no avail. some people just want to fight and argue no matter what. its unfortunate, and yes, very childish, but thats life i suppose.

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MooseMom
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« Reply #101 on: December 19, 2012, 03:53:39 PM »

I don't understand the arguements here.  Most posts are focusing on everything but simply mourning the loss of these innocent children.    If you want to argue gun control, start a thread about it.  But the anger between members regarding such a horrific act seems very childish.  Everyone wants to be right.  It isn't a contest.  They are your opinions -- each are right or wrong. 

Can we put the arguing aside, pull together as a group and give the respect these children deserve?  Pray, send positive energy, weep for the families who are burying their children.

You don't know how much time this takes up with the admin team and rumor is, it won't take much more to close this down.   Play nice.  You are alive and can hug your children tonight.

While I respect the desire of "simply mourning" the children, I personally feel the need to do more than just sit in my chair and cry.  As a parent of one of the murdered children said, I don't want these deaths to have no meaning at all.  If we can mourn while at the same time take a good look at the elements that led to this tragedy and ones before it, then that's all the better.

The fact that we can hug our children tonight makes me want to make sure we can hug them tomorrow.

I personally do not want to fight and argue, but I deeply want to discuss where we as a society go next.  This is how I am mourning.  If others cannot discuss these issues without becoming unreasonable, well, there's not much I can do about that.

 
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« Reply #102 on: December 19, 2012, 04:04:50 PM »

Tuesday night, Washington Post columnist Charles Krauthammer offered a proposition that could offer legislators in Washington, D.C. the chance to avoid a kneejerk reaction to last week’s shooting in Newton, CT.
 
Krauthammer’s hypothetical committee apparently would be different from the task force headed by Vice President Joe Biden in that it would be fashioned much like the 2002 9/11 Commission, which both then-President George W. Bush and Congress had a hand in establishing.
 
“There are people who want to use this as a partisan advantage or to scapegoat the NRA or to win over one side in this argument,” Krauthammer said. “I think one way to get around that in the passion of the moment is to do what Joe Lieberman suggested. To appoint a commission — this is not to put it off indefinitely — we had a commission after 9-11 because there is going to be a rush to judgment on this. I think it’s likely that we’re going to pass weapons laws that will be completely useless and I think it would be far better to appoint a commission to report in three months, six months, maybe Lieberman, maybe Giuliani to head it and to report and to look not just at guns, which is the only place where liberals want to look, but to look at the other two elements of any mass shooting.”
 
etc etc etc

I don't know if you saw President Obama's news conference this morning, but this is exactly what he said/did, although he has appointed the Vice President himself to head it up.  The President talked about guns, mental health and the American culture of violence just as Mr. K did.  That these two would agree on such an emotive issue is a Christmas miracle in and of itself.  Maybe the deaths of these teachers and children will not have been in vain after all.  It is up to us as a society to give their deaths a meaning.  Amen.
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Hemodoc
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« Reply #103 on: December 19, 2012, 04:05:34 PM »

I don't understand the arguements here.  Most posts are focusing on everything but simply mourning the loss of these innocent children.    If you want to argue gun control, start a thread about it.  But the anger between members regarding such a horrific act seems very childish.  Everyone wants to be right.  It isn't a contest.  They are your opinions -- each are right or wrong. 

Can we put the arguing aside, pull together as a group and give the respect these children deserve?  Pray, send positive energy, weep for the families who are burying their children.

You don't know how much time this takes up with the admin team and rumor is, it won't take much more to close this down.   Play nice.  You are alive and can hug your children tonight.

While I respect the desire of "simply mourning" the children, I personally feel the need to do more than just sit in my chair and cry.  As a parent of one of the murdered children said, I don't want these deaths to have no meaning at all.  If we can mourn while at the same time take a good look at the elements that led to this tragedy and ones before it, then that's all the better.

The fact that we can hug our children tonight makes me want to make sure we can hug them tomorrow.

I personally do not want to fight and argue, but I deeply want to discuss where we as a society go next.  This is how I am mourning.  If others cannot discuss these issues without becoming unreasonable, well, there's not much I can do about that.

 

Well stated Moosemom. I may not always agree, but I do appreciate your attention to polite discourse.
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Peter Laird, MD
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All clinical and treatment related issues discussed on this forum are for informational purposes only.  You must always secure your own medical teams approval for all treatment options before applying any discussions on this site to your own circumstances.
paris
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« Reply #104 on: December 19, 2012, 04:15:44 PM »

I simply stated that maybe it should be a new thread.   The arguing/discussion does not respond to the original post. That was the day it happened and it shared the news.

The admins have to read every single post on this forum.  It can be overwhelming.  Members can pick and choose what they want to read, but to keep the forum running smoothly with little glitches, every post must have eyes on it.   We are seeing the same people trying to convince each other who is right.   It would be great to have a thread with suggestions about how to improve our children's security.   

It is ok to take a moment and grieve with these families.  We, right this moment, can do nothing but think of ideas.   We all know everything has to go through channels.

I am grieving my husband, but the first weeks I could not change the system or be mad at the medical community.  Honor and respect while these children are being buried is important. 

But --- again, the thread becomes argumentative instead of helpful.   Of course we all want this to end.  I have 8 grands in school right now. I know how the schools are dealing with security in our city. I have my picture taken every time I visit, while I am logging onto a computer.  This is after I have been admitted to the school. 

So, start a new thread regarding gun control, security, locking down the schools, demanding teachers carry guns, but this thread was about the incident.  Not how to solve this ongoing problem of mass shootings.   

paris, Moderator
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MooseMom
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« Reply #105 on: December 19, 2012, 04:15:59 PM »

Despite the constant terrorist threats, one aspect of the Israeli school security plans are selected members who carry concealed. These people are not identified. Massad Ayoob, a well know firearms and police expert believes we should immediately implement the same steps that they have in Israel, Peru and the Philippines which have essentially eliminated mass killings in their schools. Here is his commentary.

If I were a parent of a child in an elementary school, I would seriously consider what Mr. Ayoob proposed, namely having a trained, armed individual on patrol at the school, but I would NOT want that person to be my child's teacher.  That teacher would have to have a weapon loaded and easily accessible at all times, and to have that in a classroom of young children just does not strike me as safe. 

Perhaps, as had been an idea floated around, the National Guard can have a role here.

I do think that the parents of the children in schools should have a major input in whatever decisions are made.
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"Eggs are so inadequate, don't you think?  I mean, they ought to be able to become anything, but instead you always get a chicken.  Or a duck.  Or whatever they're programmed to be.  You never get anything interesting, like regret, or the middle of last week."
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« Reply #106 on: December 19, 2012, 04:22:18 PM »

Paris, I understand your concern and despair of the time and effort it has taken the mods to read all of these posts.  You of all people understand how discussions of all kinds can veer off course; this happens in "real life" as well as on IHD. 

I agree that honoring these children while they are being buried is important, but I personally believe that while there is the national momentum to discuss these very important societal matters, we must seize the opportunity and not let our grief paralyze us and keep us from making our nation safer for our babies.

That's all I'll say on this particular topic because I can see this discussion already veering into territory of "what is the appropriate way to mourn these children?", and I REALLY don't want to go there!

Is there any way you or another mod can split this thread to make it more appropriate as you see fit?  Is that possible?  Thanks.
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"Eggs are so inadequate, don't you think?  I mean, they ought to be able to become anything, but instead you always get a chicken.  Or a duck.  Or whatever they're programmed to be.  You never get anything interesting, like regret, or the middle of last week."
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« Reply #107 on: December 19, 2012, 04:26:38 PM »


Well stated Moosemom. I may not always agree, but I do appreciate your attention to polite discourse.

Thank you.  I truly am interested in other peoples' opinions and why they feel the way they do, particularly and especially when they differ from my own.  I am acutely aware that I don't know everything about everything and that other people may have insights that I had never considered. 
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"Eggs are so inadequate, don't you think?  I mean, they ought to be able to become anything, but instead you always get a chicken.  Or a duck.  Or whatever they're programmed to be.  You never get anything interesting, like regret, or the middle of last week."
paris
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« Reply #108 on: December 19, 2012, 04:27:50 PM »

Then stop talking about Gun Control.  It has nothing to do with this.  Let's focus on the lost little first graders. 

I volunteer for first grade once a week.  I'm glad I don't have to go back for a couple of weeks.  It is scary.

        :bow;

Thank you Rerun!  Several have tried to get this on track, but the bickering continues.
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paris
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« Reply #109 on: December 19, 2012, 04:30:14 PM »

If I get another complaint about this thread I will lock it.
I honestly cannot go through reading it all.
I have avoided the news because it's killing me to hear any more about those little angels that were murdered by a nut job.
If you all cannot find a way to discuss things without dragging the admins into it, you'll lose the option.
There are to be NO ad hominem attacks:
1. appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason.
2. attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.
Got it? Good.


okarol/admin


Karol, I hope everyone read your request. 
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MooseMom
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« Reply #110 on: December 19, 2012, 04:35:53 PM »


Thank you Rerun!  Several have tried to get this on track, but the bickering continues.

Paris, I've started another thread; it can be the "bicker thread".  LOL!  Would you consider moving some of the "bickering" posts from here to there as you see as appropriate?  I really do want to be respectful to those who would prefer that this thread remain one in which they can mourn and post about their grief.  Thank you.  I am really sorry that this thread has been distressing to you, particularly at this time, so I think it is a very good idea to just start another thread.  Thank you so much for the suggestion! :cuddle;
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 04:38:04 PM by MooseMom » Logged

"Eggs are so inadequate, don't you think?  I mean, they ought to be able to become anything, but instead you always get a chicken.  Or a duck.  Or whatever they're programmed to be.  You never get anything interesting, like regret, or the middle of last week."
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« Reply #111 on: December 19, 2012, 04:36:31 PM »

Tuesday night, Washington Post columnist Charles Krauthammer offered a proposition that could offer legislators in Washington, D.C. the chance to avoid a kneejerk reaction to last week’s shooting in Newton, CT.
 
Krauthammer’s hypothetical committee apparently would be different from the task force headed by Vice President Joe Biden in that it would be fashioned much like the 2002 9/11 Commission, which both then-President George W. Bush and Congress had a hand in establishing.
 
“There are people who want to use this as a partisan advantage or to scapegoat the NRA or to win over one side in this argument,” Krauthammer said. “I think one way to get around that in the passion of the moment is to do what Joe Lieberman suggested. To appoint a commission — this is not to put it off indefinitely — we had a commission after 9-11 because there is going to be a rush to judgment on this. I think it’s likely that we’re going to pass weapons laws that will be completely useless and I think it would be far better to appoint a commission to report in three months, six months, maybe Lieberman, maybe Giuliani to head it and to report and to look not just at guns, which is the only place where liberals want to look, but to look at the other two elements of any mass shooting.”
 
etc etc etc

I don't know if you saw President Obama's news conference this morning, but this is exactly what he said/did, although he has appointed the Vice President himself to head it up.  The President talked about guns, mental health and the American culture of violence just as Mr. K did.  That these two would agree on such an emotive issue is a Christmas miracle in and of itself.  Maybe the deaths of these teachers and children will not have been in vain after all.  It is up to us as a society to give their deaths a meaning.  Amen.

Dear Moosemom, we will have to wait and see how all of this turns out politically. One woman I went to college with won't be satisfied until we have gun confiscation in the US. Certainly, it appears that there will be a ban on high capacity ammo magazines. CA and other states already limit them to 10 and outlaw the 30 bullet magazines already. I have no problem with FFL required for all private sales since that is the system in CA already.

Those are certainly reasonable considerations, but how far will they go. Will they ban all "black rifles?" Will they ban all semi-automatic weapons?

There is one very simple fact, gun laws don't prevent criminals having guns, nor do they prevent these atrocities as Norway and Germany among others demonstrate. Will gun laws keep people from gaining access to illegal guns so declared? History says that the answer to that question is no.

The simple fact remains that the only way to approach monsters with guns already in action is to meet force with force. When seconds count, the police are minutes away. I can't imagine any law that will prevent the wrong people having access to guns. Nor does gun confiscation prevent murders as we have seen in Russia and other countries that have gone that route.

When I was in between my first and second year of medical school, a friend of mine got me a summer job at Boston State Mental Institution. Ironically, that is where my mother and father met. (Hang on, my mother was a nurse and my dad worked nights for room and board while he was going to grad school) That is closed now as are most inpatient mental hospitals.  All of these shooters in the most recent incidents of mass shootings were known at risk individuals where the system did not get them the treatment they needed, nor protect innocent lives from their madness.

How the politics of this tragedy settles will in many ways define how safe our children will be in the future. Will we focus on the mental health failures, or will they instead continue with the anti-gun agenda that we have long expected from the Obama regimen? Time will tell, but I am skeptical that the nation will enact true security measures for all which includes responsible gun ownership.
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Peter Laird, MD
www.hemodoc.info
Diagnosed with IgA nephropathy 1998
Incenter Dialysis starting 2-1-2007
Self Care in Center from 4-15-2008 to 6-2-2009
Started  Home Care with NxStage 6-2-2009 (Qb 370, FF 45%, 40L)

All clinical and treatment related issues discussed on this forum are for informational purposes only.  You must always secure your own medical teams approval for all treatment options before applying any discussions on this site to your own circumstances.
MooseMom
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« Reply #112 on: December 19, 2012, 04:40:58 PM »

Hemodoc, would you mind moving/copying your last post over to the new thread that's been started?  Thanks!  I'll try to respond over there when I get the chance, but right now I have to go make dinner.  Ugh.  So not in the mood to cook...
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"Eggs are so inadequate, don't you think?  I mean, they ought to be able to become anything, but instead you always get a chicken.  Or a duck.  Or whatever they're programmed to be.  You never get anything interesting, like regret, or the middle of last week."
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« Reply #113 on: December 19, 2012, 04:47:40 PM »

Hemodoc, would you mind moving/copying your last post over to the new thread that's been started?  Thanks!  I'll try to respond over there when I get the chance, but right now I have to go make dinner.  Ugh.  So not in the mood to cook...

Thank you.

THREAD LOCKED. Off-topic from original post.

okarol/adimn

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