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Simon Dog
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« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2012, 08:53:13 AM »

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l. I took the "arm the faculty and staff" suggestion straight to mothers of six and seven year olds from 3 different countries, and the response was less than supportive.
I wasn't thinking in terms of having the teacher standing in front of the class with a gun on the belt or rifle slung over the shoulder, but having some defensive weaponry available to a select few first responders who are properly trained in their use - both from a technical perspective (how to shoot) and legal/policy perspective (knowing when to shoot and when not to shoot).  Emphasis on properly trained.  If there is a hang-up on the concept of "arming teachers", commission them as special police officers.   It's no different that having AEDs on the wall, except that you don't need as extensive security procedures to make sure that unauthorized people don't try to use an AED.    The US already does this with pilots - commercial pilots who get the proper training are able to be armed while driving the plane.  (No training and background/psych check means the pilot remains unarmed).

Thinking has shifted towards "immediate response" in active shooter scenarios.  Pre-Columbine, procedure was to secure the perimeter, call for SWAT, and wait it out.  Experience has shown time is of the essence, and the trend is now for police to pair up and enter immediately - even if the tac team is not yet on site.

Asking the mothers of kids for their "expert" opinion is like getting advice from a sick person on what antibiotic they need (if any), or asking a defendant in a criminal trial about legal strategy.  "Involvement" does not make one an expert.   I can quote several police officers who would favor arming properly trained teachers.   The unions would love it because it would no doubt require a pay differential.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 08:57:03 AM by Simon Dog » Logged
Rerun
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« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2012, 09:03:18 AM »

I've watched this whole thing unfold on TV because I'm healing from a fistula revision and have to stay down with my arm propped up.

I think these violent video games have a lot to do with it.  I don't see them so I'm still thinking pac-man is a video game.  But, they were talking about some of these games that kids play HOURS on END every waking moment.  What parent would allow that?  The parent who wants left alone to talk on the phone or go shopping and knows the kid won't move if they are gone for a few hours.  They should be banned!  We should have the military go house to house and confiscate ALL of them!  I realize that is not going to happen but it would be a good thing.  My Gosh, our kids are so desensitised to violence and murder.  From age 3 and up they play these games.  Then they grow up and go do it.

In China, I believe it was, some idiot went into a day care and hacked up everyone with a knife?  Do we take those away.  Take the guns away from everyone and the creeps will still get them. 

It wouldn't hurt to take this Adam kid even though he is dead and hang him from the highest tree and let his body rot.  Now, again, I know this will not happen but it use to in the old west.  Maybe would make a mental case think twice if there were more consequences.  I mean this guy who killed people hunting down Gabby Giffores..... IS still going to have a Trial?  What the heck for?  He should be publically, National TV and all, SHOT.... starting with his dick and going down then up.  There are no consequences for these mental cases.  Oh, poor boy had a mother who loved him too much..... Really?

When Obama talks about.... Do we do enough to protect our children in this country, Do we show them our love and do they know they are safe here able to grow up and live their dreams ..... I can't help but think of the 20+ abortions that happened that morning or the 52 million babies who this country has allowed to be killed.  I just can't help but think of them.  He weeps over little kids being murdered but allows partial birth abortions?  How can we make sense of that senseless act.  Should we spend more money on mental health for those scared young girls who just want out?  Maybe provide a safe place for them to have their babies and not kill them and have to live with that the rese of their lives?  I'm just thinking outloud here.

Well, nothing I've said will change anything but I am allowed to think it and write it.  It is just my thoughts after watching this all weekend.

Oh, and the MEDIA is so rude.  That poor State Trouper who has to say again and again..... We will have to wait until further investigation.  Then some bitch will say.  Can you tell us what the scene looked like?  I wish he would just say "listen anymore rude questions and you can forget anymore information."  Vultures!  GEEZ....

Oh, and did you watch the "Multi-Faith" vigil last night.  That was weird!  I thought the first guy said it all, then that next guy started singing "Ahhhh LUBBA  LUBGBA".  I thought it would NEVER end.  I bet Obama thought that too.  I wonder if the Atheist ever got his chance to get up and say "your kids are dead and there is no heaven... sorry... lights out and that is all".  Nice hua?

  :waiting;   
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 09:19:48 AM by Rerun » Logged

cariad
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« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2012, 09:15:54 AM »

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l. I took the "arm the faculty and staff" suggestion straight to mothers of six and seven year olds from 3 different countries, and the response was less than supportive.

Asking the mothers of kids for their "expert" opinion is like getting advice from a sick person on what antibiotic they need (if any), or asking a defendant in a criminal trial about legal strategy.  "Involvement" does not make one an expert.   I can quote several police officers who would favor arming properly trained teachers.   The unions would love it because it would no doubt require a pay differential.
Wow. How spectacularly offensive of you. We are these kids PARENTS and we should have the ultimate say in whether or not we want guns on site, whether we want essentially an airport atmosphere in our children's schools. Yes, think about this for a moment. All the people - people specifically trained in security - who say that airport security is an outright laugh and only gives the illusion of safety. THAT is what you are suggesting for our schools? THAT is the type of atmosphere you would place MY six-year-old in and you don't think I'm an expert on whether or not that's a good idea? I know we're just a group of silly females who couldn't POSSIBLY know how security works, you obviously know what makes an expert in schooling and children much more than I do. I don't care how extensive psych checks are - people can pass them year after year, month after month, it just takes that moment of insanity, carelessness, stupidity, or being overpowered or outsmarted by an assailant and you have a monumental tragedy on your hands. Then you can answer to the mothers who warned you that it would happen and explain to them how little they know about schools and security. Oh, and my husband thinks it's a horrendous idea, too. I mentioned that a suggestion had been made on IHD and he said (jokingly) "What, arm the teachers?" when I told him he guessed it, he blurted out "Oh, you jest!" If only.

Jesus, really? This is really what it's come to? Out of the thousands of schools, there is one tragedy every year or so and the answer is to arm each school to the teeth rather than examine what these people have in common that drove them over the edge and why this is not such a huge problem in other countries?
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« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2012, 09:24:28 AM »

WOW, Caraid, how insulting to this guy who may be a parent too.  Lots of parents may think just like him.  That is where the problem is, they don't all Agree with you and your husband.

Really?  You have your opinion so don't call his opinion crazy.
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« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2012, 09:40:55 AM »

are we really fighting about this? seems counter productive...

Putting my 2 cents in, no one will ever agree. Different parents, different methods, different beliefs, different children... different schools... etc etc etc

Also, I think that I have to say, as a parent, that yes it was kind of scary letting my son go today, but this type of thing has happened before, it will probably happen again, but unless you want to be a hermit and homeschool, you have to send them. How many of you are avoiding malls right now because of the shooting that happened there? how many of you will avoid stepping outside to see some law person make an appearance, after all, some dude decided to shoot that up too.. and are we any more safe in our homes or neighborhoods? home envasions happen too. And sometimes they are even more brutal than the shootings, and with different weapons, sometimes knives from your own kitchen.

Some People are being kind of unreasonable right now. Yes, it was tragic, terrible, and I still cant believe it happened. I wish it hadnt happened, and I too was scared and saddened, and worried... but then reason set in, and I was brought to the conclusion that we need to continue to live our lives. Not only for our own sake, but because We CAN. There are people who died from these tragedies, and their families, friends, and communities, who lost a piece of themselves because of these tragedies. Yes, please, pray for them or whatever you believe. Yes, mourn for them. Worry that it could happen, because it could, BUT hope that it wont. And stop fighting and arguing about things we cannot change. Why do that? Love one another and be happy that we will live another day, and our families are whole, because not all have that luxury right now.

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« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2012, 09:43:16 AM »

WOW, Caraid, how insulting to this guy who may be a parent too.  Lots of parents may think just like him.  That is where the problem is, they don't all Agree with you and your husband.

Really?  You have your opinion so don't call his opinion crazy.
I did not call his opinion crazy, so please don't scold me for something I did not do. I have been called crazy twice in recent memory on this site (not by SimonDog, to be clear) so I would appreciate a bit of consistency if mods are going to call me out for voicing my feelings. I was following SD to an extent until he compared a group of mothers to other examples of ignorant people. How does he know I wasn't talking to mothers who are also security experts themselves?

I am a little surprised that you did not pick up on the irony of saying that asking these mothers would be like asking a patient what antibiotic they should take. I tell doctors all the time which antibiotic I should take! That's rather the point of IHD, isn't it?
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« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2012, 09:46:48 AM »

Gothic, you are really making sense today..... what are you drinking?  I want some.

LOL  LOVE you! 
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« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2012, 09:52:56 AM »

Gothic, you are really making sense today..... what are you drinking?  I want some.

LOL  LOVE you! 
Yes, I agree, Rerun! Thanks for that, Goth. You put quite a few things into perspective with that lovely post.
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« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2012, 09:53:25 AM »

WOW, Caraid, how insulting to this guy who may be a parent too.  Lots of parents may think just like him.  That is where the problem is, they don't all Agree with you and your husband.

Really?  You have your opinion so don't call his opinion crazy.
I did not call his opinion crazy, so please don't scold me for something I did not do. I have been called crazy twice in recent memory on this site (not by SimonDog, to be clear) so I would appreciate a bit of consistency if mods are going to call me out for voicing my feelings. I was following SD to an extent until he compared a group of mothers to other examples of ignorant people. How does he know I wasn't talking to mothers who are also security experts themselves?

I am a little surprised that you did not pick up on the irony of saying that asking these mothers would be like asking a patient what antibiotic they should take. I tell doctors all the time which antibiotic I should take! That's rather the point of IHD, isn't it?

When I'm acting as a Moderator I will sign it as that.  Otherwise I'm just a member and the whole staff knows that if I have to stop speaking my mind I stop helping Moderate this site, and maybe you could do it. 

I was pointing out what came to my mind.  Probably because I agree with having at least the principal packing.  And pilots should pack as well.  IMO.
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« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2012, 09:58:06 AM »

lol thank you and your welcome
its just my honest opinion of it all.
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« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2012, 10:06:44 AM »

WOW, Caraid, how insulting to this guy who may be a parent too.  Lots of parents may think just like him.  That is where the problem is, they don't all Agree with you and your husband.

Really?  You have your opinion so don't call his opinion crazy.
I did not call his opinion crazy, so please don't scold me for something I did not do. I have been called crazy twice in recent memory on this site (not by SimonDog, to be clear) so I would appreciate a bit of consistency if mods are going to call me out for voicing my feelings. I was following SD to an extent until he compared a group of mothers to other examples of ignorant people. How does he know I wasn't talking to mothers who are also security experts themselves?

I am a little surprised that you did not pick up on the irony of saying that asking these mothers would be like asking a patient what antibiotic they should take. I tell doctors all the time which antibiotic I should take! That's rather the point of IHD, isn't it?

When I'm acting as a Moderator I will sign it as that.  Otherwise I'm just a member and the whole staff knows that if I have to stop speaking my mind I stop helping Moderate this site, and maybe you could do it. 

I was pointing out what came to my mind.  Probably because I agree with having at least the principal packing.  And pilots should pack as well.  IMO.
OK, I honestly did not realise that you were not speaking as a Mod, so sorry for my statement. I've never noticed a difference in your sig (unobservant me!). I love it when you speak your mind, Rerun, I absolutely do, even though we are on opposite ends of the political spectrum - so mod or no, I'd hate to see you stop. However, I am member of IHD because speaking one's mind honestly has historically been encouraged and that's all I was trying to do. I try not to take offense but I really do not know how else to take that last part of the post that set this all in motion - suggesting that we mothers are the last people you would want to consult on this issue.

No, I probably couldn't moderate this site, and with that in mind I try to grab opportunities to tell the mods how much I appreciate them. So c'mere, you! :grouphug;
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« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2012, 10:49:37 AM »

OK to you too Cariad.

       :cuddle;
        :waving;

Uggh we are having such a wind storm.  My door wreath almost broke my window!  I think my garbage is down! 
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« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2012, 12:16:57 PM »

MM
I dont know if this is a good answer, but i have one :)
My dad has guns, lots of guns, you could say hes a gun collector... He keeps them locked in a heavy duty safe. He loves to hunt, so most of them are the rifles? i think thats what they are called. but he also has hand guns. One I know he has for security lol the others are heirlooms? passed down from other family members...
Now, you asked why anyone would 'need' a gun like that? I dont really think they do, because you can protect yourself just as easily with a rifle, or hell, even a muskette. People did that for a long time, didnt they? But it is a faster weapon. if your busy loading while someone is trying to hurt you or your family, your screwed. My dad is a good man, and loves his guns, it would be sad to see someone take that away. I personally stand on the side that if a criminal wants a gun, they will find a way, gun control or not... And if the government cant protect us, or refuse to, then we have to be able to protect ourselves. And who knows, might have to protect ourselves from them!

And I do agree with both on the case of the shooter. I think what I said was both right and wrong. We do need those questions answered, but not in the way that totally makes the guy memorable. I guess I said that right...
And we do need more mental health funding. Its really unfortunate, that we have doctors without boarders willing to go overseas to help for free, but none here helping like that. instead, its expensive! Ive been dealing with mental health facilities since i was 11, and I personally dont see that they do much good anyway. Most of the people ive seen arent that great at what they do. (of course I go to the cheap places... i think maybe thats the problem lol) A good one would cost me an arm and a leg, and doubt insurance would cover it.
My brother recently lost his mind, and his insurance only covers like 6 visits a year, something he definitely needs A LOT more of! Hes batshit crazy...

There will always be people like this, killing innocent people. Their reasoning can be anything, and the result wont change. Some people just suck. Some people cant be helped, Some dont want to be helped.
And having gun control or better mental health programs probably wont change that, there are other weapons, other ways...

My father was a member of the NRA.  He had a couple of collectible handguns.  I can understand how someone would enjoy having such a collection.

While I don't think I could hunt and kill Bambi, I understand that many people enjoy hunting.  I do not wish to take away someone else's freedom to do this just becuase I don't like it.

I also understand the pleasure someone could get from shooting at targets, like in the Olympics or at the firing range.  I understand that this is a skill.

What I don't understand is why anyone would need or even WANT a weapon like the one used by this shooter, this "Bushmaster" weapon.  This is not a weapon what you can conceal/carry, so of what use would it be in "self-defense"?

I understand from the British print media that the shooter's mother was one of these "survivalists", and that's why she had her own private arsenal.  She was preparing for the end of civilization as we know it, so that leads me to wonder if mental illness runs in THAT family.

I don't think that any one measure will stop things like this from ever happening again, but if we can save even one more classroom or one more filled cinema complex from tragedies like this, it is worth a try.  Just because a measure won't completely solve the problem doesn't mean we should do nothing.

@ Rerun, as for tying abortion with gun control, there are already many, many states that have defunded Planned Parenthood or are aiming to do so in an attempt to halt abortions altogether, so if you really want to go there, we should be doing the same with gun control.  Those states that are clamping down on abortion should also be clamping down on guns.  There...how about that?  But we are seeing the opposite...abortion rights are rapidly dwindling while permission to be armed to the teeth is expanding rapidly.  Illinois has been the only state that forbids concealed/carry, but a recent federal decision has now mandated that this is unconstitutional and so the state legislature has 180 days to draft legislation making concealed/carry legal in this state.  So, rerun, you are way off base in this regard.

Abraham Lincoln fervently believed that the blood spilled during the Civil War was God's demand for payment for the blood spilled "from the lash" of slavery.  I have not been able to escape the thought that the blood of these babies was spilled because we are going down the wrong path and are allowing these evil weapons to dominate our society.  We have willingly misinterpreted the Second Amendment, and we are paying the price.  With each massacre, God is trying to tell us something, but we refuse to listen.  I always knew that something so gruesome would happen that would force us to change our ways.  Newtown may be just that. 
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 12:26:49 PM by MooseMom » Logged

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« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2012, 12:24:58 PM »


It wouldn't hurt to take this Adam kid even though he is dead and hang him from the highest tree and let his body rot.  Now, again, I know this will not happen but it use to in the old west.  Maybe would make a mental case think twice if there were more consequences.  I mean this guy who killed people hunting down Gabby Giffores..... IS still going to have a Trial?  What the heck for?  He should be publically, National TV and all, SHOT.... starting with his dick and going down then up.  There are no consequences for these mental cases.  Oh, poor boy had a mother who loved him too much..... Really?

He's going to have a trial because that's what US law demands.  Fortunately, even the mentally ill still have a right to a trial in the United States of America.  This part of your post is unbelievably cruel and, well, words fail me.  Flaming pitchforks come to mind...

Quote
Should we spend more money on mental health for those scared young girls who just want out?  Maybe provide a safe place for them to have their babies and not kill them and have to live with that the rese of their lives?  I'm just thinking outloud here.
Can you really see this set of House Republicans voting for funding for this?  Really?  I'd be all for it, but please convince Paul Ryan, OK?


Quote
Oh, and did you watch the "Multi-Faith" vigil last night.  That was weird!  I thought the first guy said it all, then that next guy started singing "Ahhhh LUBBA  LUBGBA".  I thought it would NEVER end.  I bet Obama thought that too.  I wonder if the Atheist ever got his chance to get up and say "your kids are dead and there is no heaven... sorry... lights out and that is all".  Nice hua?

  :waiting;

Geez!  I thought the Multi-faith vigil was inspiring and of a generous spirit.  You could have always just turned the TV off and read a book.  And I'm sure that even an atheist could have found comforting words.
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"Eggs are so inadequate, don't you think?  I mean, they ought to be able to become anything, but instead you always get a chicken.  Or a duck.  Or whatever they're programmed to be.  You never get anything interesting, like regret, or the middle of last week."
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« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2012, 12:52:03 PM »

Yes, I am a parent - but the kid is in college now.

As to antibiotics - some patients get it right, but one of the issues docs have to deal with is patients who think they know what drug they need.  Sometimes the patients are right; sometimes they are not.  My point was that being directly involved in a situation does not make one an expert.  (For example, regular toilet use does not make one a plumbing expert).

Quote
I also understand the pleasure someone could get from shooting at targets, like in the Olympics or at the firing range.  I understand that this is a skill.
You have answered you own question.  Google "Three gun competition" to read about legitimate sporting activity in which variants of the AR15 are the dominant rifle platform, or "Camp Perry Service Rifle Competition" to read about formal target shooting with this type of firearm.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 12:54:55 PM by Simon Dog » Logged
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« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2012, 01:49:19 PM »

I honestly wasnt aware of the type of gun the dude used, so I am sorry I wasnt informed before posting about it
yes, that it a bit strange that anyone would have that type of gun. but you said yourself she was a survivalist, and idk about you but if we were in the apocolyspse id want a heavy duty something or another to save me lol

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« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2012, 02:11:24 PM »

These killers seem to be following a pattern.  They dress up in military gear, arm themselves to the hilt and go out and mow people down.

I have two questions...why does anyone need a firearm like the one Adam Lanza used?  Does anyone use a gun like that for hunting? 

AND:

Another common thread is mental illness.  These killers clearly are ill, and we need to make sure we are better at identifying and treating these people.  I propose a 5% added MHT...a Mental Health Tax levied on all firearm purchases.  Since the Federal gov't has no more money and we want to control spending, let the individuals who buy these weapons pay for more/better access to mental health assessments/treatments.

Dear Moosemom, that is exactly the point and in retrospect, warning signs in the Aurora shooter and this one as well as the Arizona shooter appear to have been over looked and ignored. There are unwanted effects of gun bans such as increased violence evident in England and Australia since their handgun bans. Germany took stringent action against guns after their 2002 school massacre which did not prevent their horrific 2009 school massacre nor did stringent gun laws prevent the horrific Norway massacre as well.

Since it is evident that gun laws alone do not prevent these mass murders, note that CT already has an assault weapons ban since 1994 in effect today, is it not prudent for security evaluations of all American schools implementing security measures effective in preventing or delaying mass shootings? The police response was excellent, but came minutes too late. Security measures that prevent access to class rooms themselves with simple measures to secure the room itself as a safe zone are surprising affordable and easy to to engage. The CT assault weapon ban is one more failure in a long list of gun control failures.

We openly took our hunting rifles and shotguns to school in the 70's when mass shootings were unheard of. Switzerland has the highest level of gun ownership in the world yet they have a low murder rate and low levels of crime in general. If we evaluate these issues objectively, it cannot be shown that guns by themselves are the root cause of our violent society. I fear greatly over reaction to such events leading to gun confiscation which is a long standing objective of this president that we as gun owners knew would rear it's ugly head after his reelection. As always, Obama never wastes a crises to implement his known objectives.  Secretary Clinton already supported the UN small arms treaty before this tragedy before us, in fact, that was signed one day after his election.

With all of the gang bangers who openly ignore the laws in place already and possess many weapons illegally today, is taking guns away from law abiding citizens the correct response?  I don't believe so, but that is what the media and the politicians will promote, yet the story of England, Canada and Australia  among other nations does not support that outcome.

It is time instead to secure our schools with simple security measures which are known to be effective as well as improve intervention strategies for known or suspected mentally ill kids at risk of this behavior.
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« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2012, 02:14:15 PM »

OK to you too Cariad.

       :cuddle;
        :waving;

Uggh we are having such a wind storm.  My door wreath almost broke my window!  I think my garbage is down!

Yes, and I wish you would quit sending your bad weather across the Idaho border!!
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« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2012, 02:21:18 PM »

MM
I dont know if this is a good answer, but i have one :)
My dad has guns, lots of guns, you could say hes a gun collector... He keeps them locked in a heavy duty safe. He loves to hunt, so most of them are the rifles? i think thats what they are called. but he also has hand guns. One I know he has for security lol the others are heirlooms? passed down from other family members...
Now, you asked why anyone would 'need' a gun like that? I dont really think they do, because you can protect yourself just as easily with a rifle, or hell, even a muskette. People did that for a long time, didnt they? But it is a faster weapon. if your busy loading while someone is trying to hurt you or your family, your screwed. My dad is a good man, and loves his guns, it would be sad to see someone take that away. I personally stand on the side that if a criminal wants a gun, they will find a way, gun control or not... And if the government cant protect us, or refuse to, then we have to be able to protect ourselves. And who knows, might have to protect ourselves from them!

And I do agree with both on the case of the shooter. I think what I said was both right and wrong. We do need those questions answered, but not in the way that totally makes the guy memorable. I guess I said that right...
And we do need more mental health funding. Its really unfortunate, that we have doctors without boarders willing to go overseas to help for free, but none here helping like that. instead, its expensive! Ive been dealing with mental health facilities since i was 11, and I personally dont see that they do much good anyway. Most of the people ive seen arent that great at what they do. (of course I go to the cheap places... i think maybe thats the problem lol) A good one would cost me an arm and a leg, and doubt insurance would cover it.
My brother recently lost his mind, and his insurance only covers like 6 visits a year, something he definitely needs A LOT more of! Hes batshit crazy...

There will always be people like this, killing innocent people. Their reasoning can be anything, and the result wont change. Some people just suck. Some people cant be helped, Some dont want to be helped.
And having gun control or better mental health programs probably wont change that, there are other weapons, other ways...

My father was a member of the NRA.  He had a couple of collectible handguns.  I can understand how someone would enjoy having such a collection.

While I don't think I could hunt and kill Bambi, I understand that many people enjoy hunting.  I do not wish to take away someone else's freedom to do this just becuase I don't like it.

I also understand the pleasure someone could get from shooting at targets, like in the Olympics or at the firing range.  I understand that this is a skill.

What I don't understand is why anyone would need or even WANT a weapon like the one used by this shooter, this "Bushmaster" weapon.  This is not a weapon what you can conceal/carry, so of what use would it be in "self-defense"?

I understand from the British print media that the shooter's mother was one of these "survivalists", and that's why she had her own private arsenal.  She was preparing for the end of civilization as we know it, so that leads me to wonder if mental illness runs in THAT family.

I don't think that any one measure will stop things like this from ever happening again, but if we can save even one more classroom or one more filled cinema complex from tragedies like this, it is worth a try.  Just because a measure won't completely solve the problem doesn't mean we should do nothing.

@ Rerun, as for tying abortion with gun control, there are already many, many states that have defunded Planned Parenthood or are aiming to do so in an attempt to halt abortions altogether, so if you really want to go there, we should be doing the same with gun control.  Those states that are clamping down on abortion should also be clamping down on guns.  There...how about that?  But we are seeing the opposite...abortion rights are rapidly dwindling while permission to be armed to the teeth is expanding rapidly.  Illinois has been the only state that forbids concealed/carry, but a recent federal decision has now mandated that this is unconstitutional and so the state legislature has 180 days to draft legislation making concealed/carry legal in this state.  So, rerun, you are way off base in this regard.

Abraham Lincoln fervently believed that the blood spilled during the Civil War was God's demand for payment for the blood spilled "from the lash" of slavery.  I have not been able to escape the thought that the blood of these babies was spilled because we are going down the wrong path and are allowing these evil weapons to dominate our society.  We have willingly misinterpreted the Second Amendment, and we are paying the price.  With each massacre, God is trying to tell us something, but we refuse to listen.  I always knew that something so gruesome would happen that would force us to change our ways.  Newtown may be just that.

Dear Moosemom,

I have often wondered if the blood spilt in American streets from gangs and other murders is indeed payment for all of the blood America spills in all of our secret wars and special op actions?  Can't in the least begin to answer that question, but having spent 9 years as a military officer and spoken to hundreds of soldiers involved in special ops over the last few decades, it is a question that Lincoln would probably ask today himself.

As far as God, self protection and self defense with weapons is supported by the Bible, so misinterpreting is not the issue, perhaps the 3000 babies we abort daily is more important an issue in God's eyes than the lawful possession of firearms by law abiding people exercising a constitutional right  correctly interpreted.
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« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2012, 02:22:45 PM »

Peter if you see a garbage can flying it is mine.   Auntie Em  Auntie Em....

MM, I understand what you are saying.  I was throwing it out there and expected to hear about it.  I think God is very sad about the spilt blood on this land.... all of it.  If as a Nation we could just turn back to Him.  But, I don't see that happening. 

Evil lurks our streets and towns.  It barley hits the news and something else happens.

I have mace, not a gun.  They scare me.  Oh, and an attack dog. 
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 02:30:40 PM by Rerun » Logged

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« Reply #45 on: December 17, 2012, 02:25:07 PM »

Peter if you see a garbage can it is mine.

Oh, I thought I saw your dog Toto a while ago as well.
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Peter Laird, MD
www.hemodoc.info
Diagnosed with IgA nephropathy 1998
Incenter Dialysis starting 2-1-2007
Self Care in Center from 4-15-2008 to 6-2-2009
Started  Home Care with NxStage 6-2-2009 (Qb 370, FF 45%, 40L)

All clinical and treatment related issues discussed on this forum are for informational purposes only.  You must always secure your own medical teams approval for all treatment options before applying any discussions on this site to your own circumstances.
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« Reply #46 on: December 17, 2012, 02:32:53 PM »

Wow, so we're really comparing aborting pregnancies to shooting innocent kids in a classroom. Seriously???

God is angry at us for abortion, so this is the wake-up call to get us to think serioiusly about it? A madman with a gun??? How does one equate to the other??????

As a woman who has had CKD and now ESRD being treated w/a transplant, who would have to or have had to abort if I ever got pregnant, I take offense to that.  Not only that, it reeks WAAAAAY to much of the mentality of the westboro "baptist" "church". Why would ANYone want to be like them????????

There is no need to drag abortion into this God-awful tragedy. It has absolutely nothing to do about it.

Now, can we get back on track to what this thread is really about?? The tragedy in Newton CT and the victims and families affected by it?

KarenInWA
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1996 - Diagnosed with Proteinuria
2000 - Started seeing nephrologist on regular basis
Mar 2010 - Started Aranesp shots - well into CKD4
Dec 1, 2010 - Transplant Eval Appt - Listed on Feb 10, 2012
Apr 18, 2011 - Had fistula placed at GFR 8
April 20, 2011 - Had chest cath placed, GFR 6
April 22, 2011 - Started in-center HD. Continued to work FT and still went out and did things: live theater, concerts, spend time with friends, dine out, etc
May 2011 - My Wonderful Donor offered to get tested!
Oct 2011  - My Wonderful Donor was approved for surgery!
November 23, 2011 - Live-Donor Transplant (Lynette the Kidney gets a new home!)
April 3, 2012 - Routine Post-Tx Biopsy (creatinine went up just a little, from 1.4 to 1.7)
April 7, 2012 - ER admit to hospital, emergency surgery to remove large hematoma caused by biopsy
April 8, 2012 - In hospital dialysis with 2 units of blood
Now: On the mend, getting better! New Goal: No more in-patient hospital stays! More travel and life adventures!
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« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2012, 02:39:44 PM »

Wow, so we're really comparing aborting pregnancies to shooting innocent kids in a classroom. Seriously???

God is angry at us for abortion, so this is the wake-up call to get us to think serioiusly about it? A madman with a gun??? How does one equate to the other??????

As a woman who has had CKD and now ESRD being treated w/a transplant, who would have to or have had to abort if I ever got pregnant, I take offense to that.  Not only that, it reeks WAAAAAY to much of the mentality of the westboro "baptist" "church". Why would ANYone want to be like them????????

There is no need to drag abortion into this God-awful tragedy. It has absolutely nothing to do about it.

Now, can we get back on track to what this thread is really about?? The tragedy in Newton CT and the victims and families affected by it?

KarenInWA

Sorry to offend, but why would God hate the innocent death of 20 beautiful children in CT, but NOT hate the innocent death of thousands of his children daily? Sorry, but that is not Westboro Baptist mentality that is simply the reality that life begins at conception. Westboro Baptists are not Baptist nor Christian, they are a cult that thrives on provoking lawsuits to make money.

God is offended by the loss of All innocent life. Is that really a hard concept to understand? And yes, abortion is all about the loss of innocent life. Yet our society dismisses that and acts rightfully horrified by the actions in CT. That is unfortunately hypocrisy at its worst.
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Peter Laird, MD
www.hemodoc.info
Diagnosed with IgA nephropathy 1998
Incenter Dialysis starting 2-1-2007
Self Care in Center from 4-15-2008 to 6-2-2009
Started  Home Care with NxStage 6-2-2009 (Qb 370, FF 45%, 40L)

All clinical and treatment related issues discussed on this forum are for informational purposes only.  You must always secure your own medical teams approval for all treatment options before applying any discussions on this site to your own circumstances.
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« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2012, 02:41:02 PM »

This whole situation saddens me beyond words.
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Think GOD doesn't have a sense of humor?
HE created marriage and children.
Think about it! LOL!
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« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2012, 02:48:20 PM »

Hemodoc

Where is the evidence of increased violence in Australia since the banning of hand guns?  Things seem to be plodding along as usual here.
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