Traditional America

[Ricksters]

And now Hamas has gone and declared war on Israel.  Why do I doubt that Obama will offer one iota of help to our strongest ally in the Middle East?

Ricki

[MooseMom]

@ cariad, I didn't mean to say that there was no evidence of a biological reason for homosexuality.  I just meant that to my knowledge, a specific "gay gene" has not yet been found, just as an "autism gene" has not yet been identified.

@jbeany, I know that there are some studies that have been done on the environment in the womb while a male fetus is developing.  There were some thoughts that if the first born child was a boy, a second male child has a higher risk of being homosexual because the first male child rendered the womb more inhospitable to a subsequent male child.  Evolutionary biologic theory opines that in the early days of mankind, females were more valuable than males.  Regarding maternal health and its links to autism, I probably had fsgs while I was pregnant (I was diagnosed 6 months after his birth), so it could have been my "fault" that my son is autistic.  I have struggled with this "blame" for 21 years now, and that's why Rerun's suspicion that Dean's less-than-macho father causing his homosexuality made me recoil in horror.

[MooseMom]

Many think that
nature and nurture both play complex roles;
most people experience little or no sense of
choice about their sexual orientation.

http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/sorientation.pdf

So, if a gay man experiences little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation, how does God want him to live his life?  This is the third time I've asked this question, and I'd really like to hear God's answer. 

[MooseMom]

And now Hamas has gone and declared war on Israel.  Why do I doubt that Obama will offer one iota of help to our strongest ally in the Middle East?

Ricki

This is nothing new.  Israel struck terrorist targets in Palestine and killed the head of Hamas' military wing.  Each side claims that their actions are "defensive".  It doesn't look like Israel needs any more help from us.  Your taxes pay for all the help Israel needs.  Their military can wipe out anything that Hamas has to offer.

What specific kind of help do you want the US to offer?  Would you like to see American troops in Palestine?

[Hemodoc]

Many think that
nature and nurture both play complex roles;
most people experience little or no sense of
choice about their sexual orientation.

http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/sorientation.pdf

So, if a gay man experiences little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation, how does God want him to live his life?  This is the third time I've asked this question, and I'd really like to hear God's answer.

II Corinthians 5:6     Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7     (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8     We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9     Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10     For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11     Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

[MooseMom]

Hemodoc, I've never claimed to be a biblical scholar, so you are going to have to translate that for me. 

In today's world, and on a day to day basis, how does God want to see a gay person living his/her life?  Does God preach celibacy for homosexuals?  If homosexual relations are a sin, then does God want homosexuals to lead a purely platonic life?  Does living a celibate life equate to being "present with the Lord"?

[Hemodoc]

Hemodoc, I've never claimed to be a biblical scholar, so you are going to have to translate that for me. 

In today's world, and on a day to day basis, how does God want to see a gay person living his/her life?  Does God preach celibacy for homosexuals?  If homosexual relations are a sin, then does God want homosexuals to lead a purely platonic life?  Does living a celibate life equate to being "present with the Lord"?

Dear Moosemom,

I don't believe I will be able to answer your questions in any acceptable manner without further questions of my answers. Quite simply, God states to go and sin no more to all of us what ever those sins are. Your understanding of God can only improve by reading and seeking God in your own life. That's the best I can do Moosemom. It really is in your corner, read the Bible for yourself, the King James Bible is written at a 5th grade level.

Take care,

Peter

[Rerun]

because she's given up all sex with ANYONE except her spouse. 

GLORY Be!  There is a novel idea.  Hallelujah!  Sex with ONLY your spouse.  Wouldn't that keep a lot of people much happier....  The Way God Intended It To Be.
   

Yes, Dean's father feels bad but there has been forgiveness and healing and they are good friends now.  Dean has a younger brother who is a horn dog... my gosh into pornography etc... He was not born that way.  I think he got into some girly magazines at too young of an age maybe.  Seed planted and thoughts grow.

My cousin had identical twins who were just fine and then after a set of vaccinations they stopped the verbal and social growth (autistic).  One is more normal than the other.  Very sad.  So, because of that I kind of lean towards vaccinations.

will the fundamentalist pro-life Christians who believe homosexuality is a sin still want to carry the child to term?

So if it could show that a baby in their mother's womb was going to be diabetic would the liberal pro choice mother abort it?

[MooseMom]

Rerun, OMG, does Dean blame his FATHER?  Oh God, that's just horrible if that's the case!  Dean blamed his father for his own sexual sins?  Really?  Please tell me I've misunderstood!  So, why isn't Dean's younger brother homosexual?  Did their father play more "macho" games with him?  Was he one kind of dad to Dean and another kind to his younger brother?  Did Dean ever elaborate on this point?  I'm REALLY curious!

[MooseMom]

Dear Moosemom,

I don't believe I will be able to answer your questions in any acceptable manner without further questions of my answers.

Why not?  Are you afraid of my questions?

Quite simply, God states to go and sin no more to all of us what ever those sins are.

Ok, so I am going to interpret that to mean that if you are homosexual, you must stop having homosexual relations, which is really to remain celibate because to pretend to be straight and to marry is tantamount to lying to your spouse.  Would that be about right?

Your understanding of God can only improve by reading and seeking God in your own life. That's the best I can do Moosemom. It really is in your corner, read the Bible for yourself, the King James Bible is written at a 5th grade level.

I don't happen to know any fifth graders who speak in the way the King James Bible is written, and I don't appreciate the implied insult.  And who are you to assume that I have not/am not seeking God in my own life?  I've always thought that I could come to you for answers to my questions, but lately it seems that the only replies I get from you are derisive and unhelpful, so I'll stop now, OK?  I'll find someone else to talk to.  Thanks, anyway.

[justme15]

it's pretty sad when people have genuine questions and get responses like Hemodoc's.  and people wonder why Christians and Christianity are getting such resistance from society...

[Willis]

Moosemom

As a Christ-follower myself, I feel a need to comment.

I think according to the culture of the day the Jews who wrote most of the Bible considered homosexuality (at least male-to-male homosexuality) to be a serious taboo. There is a whole list of sexual taboos listed in Leviticus Chapter 20 that would be titillating enough for anyone! A major point though is that a Jew's sense of cultural identity and nationhood was (and is) uniquely strong in the history of the world. Even the Romans gave up trying to absorb them and finally just about wiped them out. And even so a remnant always survived that and many other great Holocausts.

The non-Jewish nations had all sorts of sexual behavior that to THEM was not seriously abnormal. In Roman culture, for example, it was common for young men to engage in homosexual activity because (at least among the senatorial and equestrian classes) it was common to wait until the age of 31 to get married. An earlier enemy of the Israelites was the Philistines--and their primary god was likely similar to the Roman god Priapus...who sported an exaggerated and out-of-proportion item representating a certain male body part if you get my drift.

So part of the Jewish laws may have been xenophobic in nature and designed to maintain the cultural and biological "purity" of the Jewish people. As represented in the Bible, violations of this code was usually considered a capital offense. And we as members of the Christianized West were handed down many of these cultural mores as replacements for what was considered the hedonistic behavior of the "heathen" nations. It is hard to break such deeply embedded taboos.

As a Christ-follower, I don't consider it my job to approve or disapprove of anyone's lifestyle. I know what is right and wrong TO ME because I'm influenced by Jesus Christ's teachings and lifestyle and that is the standard. I strive to keep my focus on Jesus and let God worry about what everyone else is (or is not) doing.

 

 

[Rerun]

Rerun, OMG, does Dean blame his FATHER?  Oh God, that's just horrible if that's the case!  Dean blamed his father for his own sexual sins?  Really?  Please tell me I've misunderstood!  So, why isn't Dean's younger brother homosexual?  Did their father play more "macho" games with him?  Was he one kind of dad to Dean and another kind to his younger brother?  Did Dean ever elaborate on this point?  I'm REALLY curious!

Yes, it came out that Dean blamed his Father who is the nicest man you would ever meet but did all the lunches and cleaned the house (still does) Dean's mom is just as sweet but kind of makes the rules.   Just different dynamics.  We use to tease Dean that his Dad made all the lunches in the family.  He teased me because my dad was old and a farmer.  Kids are mean but I think we did it in fun.  We thought it was fun but down deep it hurt our feelings.

Little brother had Dean to play catch with and wrestle with (aka.. same sex acceptance).  Dean's Dad showed us home movies with Dean in his cowboy hat and holster and toy guns and I guess Dean insisted he had to go to bed with all of it on.  I watch those home movies and think.... OMG what happened to that cute little boy.  His sisters in the home movies had dolls and toy dishes.  They insist Dean was rough and tough (and he did not get that from his dad).  Then in High School along with the lake incident there was a boy who Dean lived by and they started playing around he told Dean all boys did this.  And I guess he could blame ME who was a prude.  They use to sing the song SANDY to me.  "won't go to bed 'til she old gray and dead"  She can't she's Sandara "D".  I wasn't even religious back then.  Hadn't accepted Christ as my saviour.  I was just scared to death of it.  My older sister was forced to have an abortion prior to 1974 and my other sister got pregnant and didn't say anything until it was too late (Thus my nephew who is a great young man).  So, me being the youngest of 5 had issues in my own family.  I didn't like sex when I was married.  Figured it was a woman's duty.  So, yes I can certainly stay celibate the rest of my days.  Dean would like to get married and have children.  He is 51 but he could marry some young chick.  I would dance at his wedding.  He would be a good father.... but I bet his kids would blame him for something.  Don't we all blame our parents for something.  My Dad was old.  He was 60 when I graduated from High School.  We never hit it off.  I could blame him for not liking men because there was no love shown to me.  But I don't.  I blame my ex-husband for not liking men.

Oh my gosh where did all that come from.   

So, I see Dean staying celibate but not alone.  He has family and friends.  Some of my friends who have kids may end up alone.  How about your son?  Do autistic people marry and have families?  It is okay to not be sexually active.  I think more and more people do that.

I guess my thought here is lots of stuff you are introduced to as children and the preception they make their own may not be correct but it molds who they become. 

Someone in this conversation said we didn't know about being straight when were were kids so how come some kids know they are homosexual?  I grew up on a farm.  I saw first hand males and females and babies.  It was more weird to me when I learned how humans did it.

That said I know Dean was not born homosexual.  He was exposed to it and his girlfriend wouldn't put out so he chose the lifestyle.  I still won't put out for him and he feels safe with me.

[Hemodoc]

Dear Moosemom,

I don't believe I will be able to answer your questions in any acceptable manner without further questions of my answers.

Why not?  Are you afraid of my questions?

Quite simply, God states to go and sin no more to all of us what ever those sins are.

Ok, so I am going to interpret that to mean that if you are homosexual, you must stop having homosexual relations, which is really to remain celibate because to pretend to be straight and to marry is tantamount to lying to your spouse.  Would that be about right?

Your understanding of God can only improve by reading and seeking God in your own life. That's the best I can do Moosemom. It really is in your corner, read the Bible for yourself, the King James Bible is written at a 5th grade level.

I don't happen to know any fifth graders who speak in the way the King James Bible is written, and I don't appreciate the implied insult.  And who are you to assume that I have not/am not seeking God in my own life?  I've always thought that I could come to you for answers to my questions, but lately it seems that the only replies I get from you are derisive and unhelpful, so I'll stop now, OK?  I'll find someone else to talk to.  Thanks, anyway.

No insult intended at all Moosemom, the King James Bible is written at a 5th grade level and it speaks plainly. That is all I was stating in reference to your statement that you are not a Bible scholar. You don't have to be a Bible scholar to understand the Bible.

As far as prohibition of homosexuality in the Bible, that is pretty clear and I have already referenced several verses. It appears you are trying to get me to justify homosexuality from the Bible in some manner. That is not going to happen since the Bible condemns that behavior. In any case, it is unlikely I can provide you the answers that you want since the Bible does not in any manner condone homosexuality in any manner at all. Sorry, but I don't have the answers to your questions.

Take care,

Peter

[jbeany]

Hemodoc,

I really think MM is just trying to figure out if the Bible has any specific passages that say if homosexuals should remain celibate.

MM -
You might just try a google search.  "Does the Bible address homosexuality?"  pops up an awful lot of discussions.  A quick skim of the first few I've looked at seems to focus on the male and female being made in pairs, the woman being a helpmate to the man, and man and wife cleaving together, as well as plenty of places where homosexuality is condemned as a sin. 

As for remaining celibate - I'm thinking that's the default option, even if it's not a commandment from on high.

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13 KJV)

Of course, Leviticus tends to stone people to death for a whole lot of things, so this doesn't really come as a surprise...

[Hemodoc]

Moosemom

As a Christ-follower myself, I feel a need to comment.

I think according to the culture of the day the Jews who wrote most of the Bible considered homosexuality (at least male-to-male homosexuality) to be a serious taboo. There is a whole list of sexual taboos listed in Leviticus Chapter 20 that would be titillating enough for anyone! A major point though is that a Jew's sense of cultural identity and nationhood was (and is) uniquely strong in the history of the world. Even the Romans gave up trying to absorb them and finally just about wiped them out. And even so a remnant always survived that and many other great Holocausts.

The non-Jewish nations had all sorts of sexual behavior that to THEM was not seriously abnormal. In Roman culture, for example, it was common for young men to engage in homosexual activity because (at least among the senatorial and equestrian classes) it was common to wait until the age of 31 to get married. An earlier enemy of the Israelites was the Philistines--and their primary god was likely similar to the Roman god Priapus...who sported an exaggerated and out-of-proportion item representating a certain male body part if you get my drift.

So part of the Jewish laws may have been xenophobic in nature and designed to maintain the cultural and biological "purity" of the Jewish people. As represented in the Bible, violations of this code was usually considered a capital offense. And we as members of the Christianized West were handed down many of these cultural mores as replacements for what was considered the hedonistic behavior of the "heathen" nations. It is hard to break such deeply embedded taboos.

As a Christ-follower, I don't consider it my job to approve or disapprove of anyone's lifestyle. I know what is right and wrong TO ME because I'm influenced by Jesus Christ's teachings and lifestyle and that is the standard. I strive to keep my focus on Jesus and let God worry about what everyone else is (or is not) doing.

 

Dear Willis,

It is not an issue of interjecting into others personal choices, but instead simply answering the questions put forth directly showing only that which God teaches both in the Old Testament as well as the new testament on this issue. Unfortunately, as you know since the time of the garden of Eden, people have rejected God's Holy commandments. It is no different today. Jesus Himself states, I do not judge you but the words that I have spoken will. Wouldn't you agree that is why it is important for people to read the Bible themselves to know and understand what is expected?

John 12:46     I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47     And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48     He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

When the women caught in the very act of adultery was brought to Jesus, he wrote in the ground and said, he who is without sin cast the first stone. One by one, they all dropped their stones and walked away leaving the woman alone with Jesus. Jesus asked her, where are your accusers? They had left she answered. Jesus told her, neither do I accuse you either, but He left her with the admonition, go and sin no more. We are all left with that same admonition, go and sin no more, no matter what the sins.

Willis, as you know, we are still in the age of grace where all people can stand before Jesus and be forgiven of all transgressions. Jesus came to save the lost and not to condemn. That is the message of the Gospel, but Jesus did speak of eternal judgement as well. Just about everyone knows John 3:16, but few know the context of that verse in what Jesus spoke right after that.

16      ¶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17     For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18      ¶ He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19     And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20     For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21     But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Sadly, many will reject the light of the gospel. For that, there remains only great sorrow but people have the free to choose as they will. The Bible speaks plainly and is easily understood. The rest remains each persons personal choice.

I am a little puzzled, are you implying that the Jewish laws came from the people the Jews and were xenophobic, or are they instead God's Holy commandments as Moses testified and God's word alone?

[Hemodoc]

Hemodoc,

I really think MM is just trying to figure out if the Bible has any specific passages that say if homosexuals should remain celibate.

MM -
You might just try a google search.  "Does the Bible address homosexuality?"  pops up an awful lot of discussions.  A quick skim of the first few I've looked at seems to focus on the male and female being made in pairs, the woman being a helpmate to the man, and man and wife cleaving together, as well as plenty of places where homosexuality is condemned as a sin. 

As for remaining celibate - I'm thinking that's the default option, even if it's not a commandment from on high.

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13 KJV)

Of course, Leviticus tends to stone people to death for a whole lot of things, so this doesn't really come as a surprise...

Dear Jbeany,

Sorry, I simply don't have all the answers to all of MM's questions and have so stated. I would point out that Jesus holds us to a much higher standard in the New Testament than the old testament. Take a look:

 
Matthew 5:27     ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28     But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29     And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30     And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

I believe that is about as close to the answer to the question that MM has put forth. Anything more specific than that I don't believe exists in the Scriptures to the best of my knowledge. It is not only what we do, but what we think is also very important. To look upon a woman in a lustful manner is to be guilty of the sin of adultery as Jesus Himself teaches. It is a standard that no man can attain, but only through faith in Christ do we overcome. That is Christ's message.

So, it all goes back to whether the Bible is the true, literal word of God or not. If it is not, then there is no consequence whatsoever to ignoring it's teachings. However, if it is the true, literal word of God, then how we accept or reject it's teachings has temporal and eternal consequences. I spent the  first 36 years of my life rejecting the Bible until someone spoke the truth of the importance of God's word to me. As a Christian, sugar coating it's reality is not an option if we are going to be true to our beliefs.

In any case, back to the topic of traditional America. Homosexuality is a nontraditional lifestyle that is condemned by the Bible. Once again, I am not sure why anyone would be surprised by that knowledge which is indeed not a secret at all. The Bible justifies no sins, but Jesus justifies the sinner if they will simply believe on His name and call upon Jesus for salvation.

In traditional America, seeking the will of God was the operative word for many people. Our nation was founded on religious liberty and that is our heritage from colonial times. 

[MooseMom]

It appears you are trying to get me to justify homosexuality from the Bible in some manner. That is not going to happen since the Bible condemns that behavior. In any case, it is unlikely I can provide you the answers that you want since the Bible does not in any manner condone homosexuality in any manner at all. Sorry, but I don't have the answers to your questions.

Take care,

Peter

No, I'm not trying to get you to justify homosexuality from the Bible in any manner.  If you don't have the answers to my questions, that's certainly fair enough.

@jbeany, yes, that's what I was getting at.  Yes, like you, I'd guess that "sin no more" in this case would mean "remain celibate".  Difficult, but doable.

[MooseMom]

@Rerun, yes, autistic people might marry, but it depends upon whether or not there is anyone out there who will have them.  It also depends on how disabled they are.  I never thought my son would learn to drive, but he did.  I doubt he will ever marry because I don't know if anyone else could accept him as he is, but I may be wrong.  I hope I am because he is my only child and I have no brothers or sisters, and it would be really nice to have a grandchild.  I think I'd feel less lonely in this world.  I know he wants to get married.  He has told me that he doesn't want to be alone, and that has always been my greatest fear for him, that he will end up alone.  Because of my kidney disease, I could not have any other children, so he has no siblings.  I fear for him.  I hope God will look out for him once his dad and I are dead.

I agree that childhood experiences can shape who you are.  As another poster commented, it's the old "nature vs nurture" debate.  One could look at all of the children in one family, brought up in the same way, and yet marvel at how different they are.  Or one could look at identical twins, separated at birth, and marvel how identical they really are despite their different upbringings.  All part of the mystery of life.

Celibacy is the preferred "sexual orientation" for more people than you might think.  Frees up a lot of energy for the enjoyment of the many other things that life has to offer.

[cariad]

@ cariad, I didn't mean to say that there was no evidence of a biological reason for homosexuality.  I just meant that to my knowledge, a specific "gay gene" has not yet been found, just as an "autism gene" has not yet been identified.

There are always suspects but it will probably, as I've said, be linked to a complex of genes and environmental influences (much of which could be biological in nature). The term "gay gene" is just pop science shorthand for "genetic involvement", at least that is how I read it. It is going to take much longer to properly unravel a genetic link to homosexuality since it presents such a political minefield, funding is almost non-existent.

@jbeany, I know that there are some studies that have been done on the environment in the womb while a male fetus is developing.  There were some thoughts that if the first born child was a boy, a second male child has a higher risk of being homosexual because the first male child rendered the womb more inhospitable to a subsequent male child.  Evolutionary biologic theory opines that in the early days of mankind, females were more valuable than males.

Females ARE more valuable than males from an evolutionary perspective, from the early days of mankind right up to today, and across most if not all mammalian species. Hormones and reproduction are quite amazing when you really get into the study of it, so I think that hormones will be implicated in complex traits like homosexuality far more than genetics. In rodents for example, (I believe it's rats, perhaps mice?) females will spontaneously abort only male fetuses under certain conditions (exposure to adult males for example). There are some amazing phenomena out there - I have a fantastic biological anthro text that I would love to reread.... someday!

[Willis]

I am a little puzzled, are you implying that the Jewish laws came from the people the Jews and were xenophobic, or are they instead God's Holy commandments as Moses testified and God's word alone?

Yes, and I will suppose many will consider me a heretic, but I believe that significant portions of the Old Testament were what the priests of the Hebrew nation (i.e., its government) wanted to represent AS God's position when it was really THEIR view of God's position. I sincerely believe that God inspired the history as it was written. But that He allowed the history to be written with all of its ugliness. Compare that to the ancient literature of almost all other cultures in which everything is sanitized. To me, the strongest evidence for this is that those who claimed to practice the Law most sincerely with all its added precepts from the Talmud and Mishna were the very ones who rejected the Messiah and had him crucified as a criminal by the Romans.

When the Hebrew history "says" that God told them to enter some land and kill every man, woman, and child how is that different from some modern guy who says he killed his family because "God told me to do it"? We call men like that crazy.

No, I think this is what I will call the Hebrew "Bad Ass" God. The leaders of Israel had a vested interest in promoting such a God to not only keep their own people in control but as a warning of bad consequences for their enemies. When they attacked Jericho and probably due to a timely earthquake the walls fell and they took the city it was to their benefit to depict the victory as miraculous intervention by their Bad Ass God. The interesting things to me is that I do believe God allowed their xenophobic depiction of God and everyone else as an example of how depraved a legalistic approach to religion can actually become. In the Middle Ages and beyond we saw this same sort of depiction of God when governmental and religious leadership were synonymous. Just to cite one example, take mandatory confession to a local priest. In an age when people rarely traveled, just imagine the power the "church" had when one man in the village knew all the "secrets" and had the power of banishment over transgressors who failed to toe-the-line.

The Old Testament narratives can be compared to other parts of the Hebrew Scriptures such as those of the various Prophets who spent most of their time CONDEMNING those who were writing the history. The truly miraculous part, in my opinion, is that God allowed such unfiltered and immoral religiosity to survive all these thousands of years as an example of what NOT to do.

Jesus rejected the prevailing views of the Hebrew priests and called them hypocrites, blind, and a "brood of vipers"! What Scriptures did they follow and what God did they project to keep the population under control? It wasn't the God represented in the flesh by Jesus Christ because that is the God they crucified.

 

[MooseMom]

What a fascinating post, Willis.  Actually, I find all of your posts to be really interesting.  They give me much food for thought.

[Hemodoc]

I am a little puzzled, are you implying that the Jewish laws came from the people the Jews and were xenophobic, or are they instead God's Holy commandments as Moses testified and God's word alone?

Yes, and I will suppose many will consider me a heretic, but I believe that significant portions of the Old Testament were what the priests of the Hebrew nation (i.e., its government) wanted to represent AS God's position when it was really THEIR view of God's position. I sincerely believe that God inspired the history as it was written. But that He allowed the history to be written with all of its ugliness. Compare that to the ancient literature of almost all other cultures in which everything is sanitized. To me, the strongest evidence for this is that those who claimed to practice the Law most sincerely with all its added precepts from the Talmud and Mishna were the very ones who rejected the Messiah and had him crucified as a criminal by the Romans.

When the Hebrew history "says" that God told them to enter some land and kill every man, woman, and child how is that different from some modern guy who says he killed his family because "God told me to do it"? We call men like that crazy.

No, I think this is what I will call the Hebrew "Bad Ass" God. The leaders of Israel had a vested interest in promoting such a God to not only keep their own people in control but as a warning of bad consequences for their enemies. When they attacked Jericho and probably due to a timely earthquake the walls fell and they took the city it was to their benefit to depict the victory as miraculous intervention by their Bad Ass God. The interesting things to me is that I do believe God allowed their xenophobic depiction of God and everyone else as an example of how depraved a legalistic approach to religion can actually become. In the Middle Ages and beyond we saw this same sort of depiction of God when governmental and religious leadership were synonymous. Just to cite one example, take mandatory confession to a local priest. In an age when people rarely traveled, just imagine the power the "church" had when one man in the village knew all the "secrets" and had the power of banishment over transgressors who failed to toe-the-line.

The Old Testament narratives can be compared to other parts of the Hebrew Scriptures such as those of the various Prophets who spent most of their time CONDEMNING those who were writing the history. The truly miraculous part, in my opinion, is that God allowed such unfiltered and immoral religiosity to survive all these thousands of years as an example of what NOT to do.

Jesus rejected the prevailing views of the Hebrew priests and called them hypocrites, blind, and a "brood of vipers"! What Scriptures did they follow and what God did they project to keep the population under control? It wasn't the God represented in the flesh by Jesus Christ because that is the God they crucified.

 

Wow, then the God of the Old Testament in your opinion is not God. Wow. In any case, to each his own.

[MooseMom]

If I have understood correctly, and forgive me if I have not, one definition of "traditional America" has its underpinings in the Judeo-Christian tradition.  I think I've also understood that to understand "traditional America", one should look to evangelical Christianity to understand the traditional American steadfastness with Israel.

I have an acquaintance who defines himself as a born-again Christian, but I have in the past observed some comments/behaviours from him that I would consider to be anti-Semitic.  So as a general question, is it possible to be an evangelical Christian AND be anti-Semitic?  Or is that an oxymoron?

[cariad]

@Rerun, yes, autistic people might marry, but it depends upon whether or not there is anyone out there who will have them. 

MM, there is someone out there for your son if he will just accept that he has much to offer a partner. Have you asked if he's been attracted to anyone or dated anyone? I read this article about a year ago and if you haven't already, you should have a look as well. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/26/us/navigating-love-and-autism.html?pagewanted=all I hope he does not view himself as 'damaged goods' or similar, because I do believe that will serve to drive away any love interests, and really all sorts of people find love every single day.

It also depends on how disabled they are.  I never thought my son would learn to drive, but he did.  I doubt he will ever marry because I don't know if anyone else could accept him as he is, but I may be wrong.  I hope I am because he is my only child and I have no brothers or sisters, and it would be really nice to have a grandchild.  I think I'd feel less lonely in this world.  I know he wants to get married.  He has told me that he doesn't want to be alone, and that has always been my greatest fear for him, that he will end up alone.

One thing i have noticed about England is that disabled people of all stripes are more visible here. I think it's the government's and society's refusal to just cast them aside to fend for themselves that makes them able to participate in life more fully here than I've ever seen in the US. There is a local couple (I think they are a couple) with Down's Syndrome that frequently ride the bus that I take each day. I once watched a documentary where a person with Down Syndrome guided parents and their children with DS through life with this condition, and I remember the mother asking 'will he be able to get married?' and the response from this man being 'If you want to get married, you can get married. The only reason I am not married is because I don't want to be right now.' I think for the higher-functioning people like this man and your son, that is absolutely true.