Traditional America

[MooseMom]

Actually, having spent a lot of time when I was a kid with my dad's family who grew up on a farm in Kansas, the nature of my own childhood growing up in Alaska had much in common with my father's father and his father's father. In other words, there were many common themes to my traditional childhood with those of the last 3-4 generations. I truly had a traditional childhood sheltered in many ways from the craziness of the 1960's in the lower 48. Being isolated in Alaska was by far a blessing.

In any case, back to traditional America. My kids did not grow up in traditional America. First of all, you cannot just let your kids run wild like we did as kids. Those days are long gone which in many ways is a distinct separation from the connection I have with my father's father and his father's father. The traditional values that they had is what I grew up with as well. I can't say the same for my kids sadly.  Yes, it is more than just nostalgia Bill, we have lost something very dear and cherished in America, that is traditional America. Once again, that is not speaking at all of politics since I grew up in a democratic household where they spoke often of the New Deal and Roosevelt and Truman. Traditional America has nothing at all to do with politics.

You know, Hemodoc, you bring up a very good point, or at least an idea that brings up a very good point.  I suspect that the pace of change is so accelerated that we as a society are finding it hard to keep up.  We had centuries and centuries that did not bring about a lot of change;  I doubt much changed between the years 1400 and 1475.  But think about how much has happened...how much has changed...in the world in the past 75 years!  We communicate so much faster and so much efficiently, and we can fly from one end of the globe to another in just a day.  You couldn't do these things 75 years ago.

So it makes me think that "traditional America" is still within our memory.  I don't thing that someone in France in 1400 pined for "traditional France".  There are a lot of societies that right now are experiencing massive change in a short amount of time.  America is in flux just like most parts of the world, and again, it is happening quickly.  Furthermore, as more time passes, the faster the rate of change.  At least that's how I perceive it.  So, the result is this pining for a way of life that existed not that long ago but yet is so very different from the way we live now, and it is very disconcerting.

What are your thoughts in this regard, Hemodoc?  Would you agree that the rate of change has created this "discombobulation"?  LOL!

[justjen321]

@Peter - I appreciate the invitation. As someone who grew up Southern Baptist, and finally wound up at a Christian Church in my early adulthood, who taught Sunday School, and who spent several days each week at the church, leading youth/teen groups, I assure you, I've had the opportunity. I've been baptized, I accepted Christ as my savior, all in my younger years.

In the intervening years, I've moved completely away from any organized religion, and I've moved away from specificities into what I believe to be 'the bigger picture'. If I had to label myself (which I try to avoid) I would simply say I'm a spiritual person, and possibly a 'Humanist' by it's definition. But neither of those fully encapsulates who I am, and what I believe.

At the base of what I believe is that all humans have a right to their own faith, or non faith. And that in each of those sectors, there are good people, and bad people. We live in a country that literally came to be out of the desire to worship or not worship as one sees fit, without the fear of the persecution that has caused so very much bloodshed.

Which brings me right back to the opinion that we cannot have God involved in our government. Regardless of what you believe, there are millions and millions who believe something different. I wonder how it would make those who believe in and pray to God if we said 'Okay. Let's put religion back into our country. We'll go with Buddhism.' I feel it would be an outrage.

What we need to put back in our government is common sense, human decency, and a desire to work together for the common good. An understanding that we are all in this together. Currently, our government is held by a minority of the peoples, run by the minority of the peoples, and working almost solely for the good of those in charge of it.

[Hemodoc]

Actually, having spent a lot of time when I was a kid with my dad's family who grew up on a farm in Kansas, the nature of my own childhood growing up in Alaska had much in common with my father's father and his father's father. In other words, there were many common themes to my traditional childhood with those of the last 3-4 generations. I truly had a traditional childhood sheltered in many ways from the craziness of the 1960's in the lower 48. Being isolated in Alaska was by far a blessing.

In any case, back to traditional America. My kids did not grow up in traditional America. First of all, you cannot just let your kids run wild like we did as kids. Those days are long gone which in many ways is a distinct separation from the connection I have with my father's father and his father's father. The traditional values that they had is what I grew up with as well. I can't say the same for my kids sadly.  Yes, it is more than just nostalgia Bill, we have lost something very dear and cherished in America, that is traditional America. Once again, that is not speaking at all of politics since I grew up in a democratic household where they spoke often of the New Deal and Roosevelt and Truman. Traditional America has nothing at all to do with politics.

You know, Hemodoc, you bring up a very good point, or at least an idea that brings up a very good point.  I suspect that the pace of change is so accelerated that we as a society are finding it hard to keep up.  We had centuries and centuries that did not bring about a lot of change;  I doubt much changed between the years 1400 and 1475.  But think about how much has happened...how much has changed...in the world in the past 75 years!  We communicate so much faster and so much efficiently, and we can fly from one end of the globe to another in just a day.  You couldn't do these things 75 years ago.

So it makes me think that "traditional America" is still within our memory.  I don't thing that someone in France in 1400 pined for "traditional France".  There are a lot of societies that right now are experiencing massive change in a short amount of time.  America is in flux just like most parts of the world, and again, it is happening quickly.  Furthermore, as more time passes, the faster the rate of change.  At least that's how I perceive it.  So, the result is this pining for a way of life that existed not that long ago but yet is so very different from the way we live now, and it is very disconcerting.

What are your thoughts in this regard, Hemodoc?  Would you agree that the rate of change has created this "discombobulation"?  LOL!

Dear Moosemom,

I can't separate this rate of change as you call it from what I know about Bible prophecy that told us over 2000 years ago of these things that are coming to pass before our eyes. That is one of the things that separates the God of the Bible from all of the "religions." Only the Bible has thousands of literally fulfilled prophecies, both in the past and many more to come. Israel for instance. You can read the entire history of Israel over the last 3000 years spoken by Moses around 1400 B.C. for instance in Leviticus chapter 26. The diaspora was prophesied by Moses and many of the OT prophets and their regathering is shown in dozens of OT prophecies as well. So, as I am indeed saddened by the changes we see today, I am not completely surprised by them since we have known what is to come for those of us that do believe the truth of the Bible.

[Hemodoc]

@Peter - I appreciate the invitation. As someone who grew up Southern Baptist, and finally wound up at a Christian Church in my early adulthood, who taught Sunday School, and who spent several days each week at the church, leading youth/teen groups, I assure you, I've had the opportunity. I've been baptized, I accepted Christ as my savior, all in my younger years.

In the intervening years, I've moved completely away from any organized religion, and I've moved away from specificities into what I believe to be 'the bigger picture'. If I had to label myself (which I try to avoid) I would simply say I'm a spiritual person, and possibly a 'Humanist' by it's definition. But neither of those fully encapsulates who I am, and what I believe.

At the base of what I believe is that all humans have a right to their own faith, or non faith. And that in each of those sectors, there are good people, and bad people. We live in a country that literally came to be out of the desire to worship or not worship as one sees fit, without the fear of the persecution that has caused so very much bloodshed.

Which brings me right back to the opinion that we cannot have God involved in our government. Regardless of what you believe, there are millions and millions who believe something different. I wonder how it would make those who believe in and pray to God if we said 'Okay. Let's put religion back into our country. We'll go with Buddhism.' I feel it would be an outrage.

What we need to put back in our government is common sense, human decency, and a desire to work together for the common good. An understanding that we are all in this together. Currently, our government is held by a minority of the peoples, run by the minority of the peoples, and working almost solely for the good of those in charge of it.

Actually, a little known fact is that separation of church and state is a Baptist doctrine set forth in America first by Roger Williams, the founder of Rhode Island.

http://www.wallofseparation.us/the-origins-of-wall-of-separation/

However, this wall of separation was a one way wall preventing government from establishing a denomination like in Europe and in some of the states in the early colonies, but it did not in any manner prevent Christian influences over the government. The original intent of the "wall of separation" is exactly opposite to how it is interpreted today. In fact, look up many of the original state constitutions that required an oath of allegiance to th Christian faith for elected officials. The constitution did not at all prohibit those things at the state and local governments. Here is one example.

CHAPTER II.--EXECUTIVE POWER

Section I,--Governor

Article I. There shall be a supreme executive magistrate, who shall be styled "The governor of the commonwealth of Massachusetts;" and whose title shall be "His Excellency."

Art. II. The governor shall be chosen annually; and no person shall be eligible to this office, unless, at the time of his election, he shall have been an inhabitant of this commonwealth for seven years next preceding; and unless he shall, at the same time, be seized, in his own right, of a freehold, within the commonwealth, of the value of one thousand pounds; and unless he shall declare himself to be of the Christian religion.

Article I. Any person chosen governor, lieutenant-governor, councillor, senator, or representative, and accepting the trust, shall, before he proceed to execute the duties of his place or office, make and subscribe the following declaration, viz:

"I, A.B., do declare that I believe the Christian religion, and have a firm persuasion of its truth; and that I am seized and possessed, in my own right, of the property required by the constitution, as one qualification for the office or place to which I am elected."

Which conservative state held these and more "Christian" prerequisites, Massachusetts of course:

http://www.nhinet.org/ccs/docs/ma-1780.htm

Once again, the current understanding of the separation of church and state is quite foreign to the original founding fathers concept of separation of church and state. That is part of traditional America that has fallen to the wayside as well.

[KarenInWA]

In such, your link is a political discourse on post election analysis by some fat cat GOP politicians. That really is not at all in line with traditional America. I would note that history was against the GOP from the start. If you exclude Gerald Ford since he never won any Presidential election, but was instead appointed, Jimmy Carter is the ONLY sitting president to lose reelection in about 90 years. History shows that the incumbent except in one case wins their second term.  Don't forget the soul searching the Dems did after Kerry lost in 2004.

Color me confused, but wasn't George H.W. Bush a Republican, and did he not run for re-election in 1992 and lost to Bill Clinton?  I thought he was President from Jan 20, 1989 to Jan 20, 1993. Am I mistaken? If memory serves me correct, we had a 3rd Party candidate who participated in the debates for that eleciton as well, one Mr. Ross Perot, who ran as an Independent.  This all happened well within the last 90 years.

KarenInWA

[Hemodoc]

In such, your link is a political discourse on post election analysis by some fat cat GOP politicians. That really is not at all in line with traditional America. I would note that history was against the GOP from the start. If you exclude Gerald Ford since he never won any Presidential election, but was instead appointed, Jimmy Carter is the ONLY sitting president to lose reelection in about 90 years. History shows that the incumbent except in one case wins their second term.  Don't forget the soul searching the Dems did after Kerry lost in 2004.

Color me confused, but wasn't George H.W. Bush a Republican, and did he not run for re-election in 1992 and lost to Bill Clinton?  I thought he was President from Jan 20, 1989 to Jan 20, 1993. Am I mistaken? If memory serves me correct, we had a 3rd Party candidate who participated in the debates for that eleciton as well, one Mr. Ross Perot, who ran as an Independent.  This all happened well within the last 90 years.

KarenInWA

Sorry, that is correct, Bush and Carter broke the mold of what the usual historic reelection rate is for second terms. But without Ross Perot, Bush would have easily won reelection making that a bit of anomaly as well.

[MooseMom]

Dear Moosemom,

I can't separate this rate of change as you call it from what I know about Bible prophecy that told us over 2000 years ago of these things that are coming to pass before our eyes. That is one of the things that separates the God of the Bible from all of the "religions." Only the Bible has thousands of literally fulfilled prophecies, both in the past and many more to come. Israel for instance. You can read the entire history of Israel over the last 3000 years spoken by Moses around 1400 B.C. for instance in Leviticus chapter 26. The diaspora was prophesied by Moses and many of the OT prophets and their regathering is shown in dozens of OT prophecies as well. So, as I am indeed saddened by the changes we see today, I am not completely surprised by them since we have known what is to come for those of us that do believe the truth of the Bible.

What saddens me is the dearth of kindness and compassion that Jesus Christ wanted us to show to our fellow human beings.  Big corporations taking advantage of the chronically ill.  Using drones to kill people in far off lands just because we can and because we now seem to lack the courage to put our own people in harm's way for what we've defined is a righteous cause.  Killing machines from the sky...how horrible is that? 

I thought that in "traditional America", we were kind to one another and were eager to help.  But it's not that way anymore, is it, particularly if your neighbor happens to speak a different language or doesn't look like you.

We can talk about the lack of personal responsibility, the lack of morality, gay marriage being at the root of all of our evils or whatever else the OT prophesied, but in my mind, this lack of care for one another and this refusal to treat others as you would have them treat you is the true cause of our eventual doom.

About eight years ago, my husband and I stopped to help a young woman who had been booted out of our local Baker's Square because she lacked the money to pay for more than a cup of coffee.  She was homeless but was living at a local shelter which happened to be run by and located in the basement of a neighborhood church.  This shelter does a lot of good work, and my husband and I had attended several of their fund-raising functions.  But since it was a Sunday morning and services were being conducted, the residents of this shelter were kicked out for reasons that I do not even WANT to understand.  They were allowed back in once services were over.  And to top it all off, the reason Baker's Square made this young lady leave was because they wanted her table to be free for all of the people who normally came in for lunch after...church.

So Hemodoc, while I can understand that you believe that God will punish us all for advocating for gay marriage or for whatever else we will be sent to hell for, I respectfully submit that we will all be condemned for our inhumanity to man.  We all seem to be at each other's throats, and of course it is always someone else's fault. 

And btw, Baker's Square went bankrupt.  Call it God's Will.  I rejoice in the Lord every time I see that now-vacant lot!

[Hemodoc]

Dear Moosemom,

I can't separate this rate of change as you call it from what I know about Bible prophecy that told us over 2000 years ago of these things that are coming to pass before our eyes. That is one of the things that separates the God of the Bible from all of the "religions." Only the Bible has thousands of literally fulfilled prophecies, both in the past and many more to come. Israel for instance. You can read the entire history of Israel over the last 3000 years spoken by Moses around 1400 B.C. for instance in Leviticus chapter 26. The diaspora was prophesied by Moses and many of the OT prophets and their regathering is shown in dozens of OT prophecies as well. So, as I am indeed saddened by the changes we see today, I am not completely surprised by them since we have known what is to come for those of us that do believe the truth of the Bible.

What saddens me is the dearth of kindness and compassion that Jesus Christ wanted us to show to our fellow human beings.  Big corporations taking advantage of the chronically ill.  Using drones to kill people in far off lands just because we can and because we now seem to lack the courage to put our own people in harm's way for what we've defined is a righteous cause.  Killing machines from the sky...how horrible is that? 

I thought that in "traditional America", we were kind to one another and were eager to help.  But it's not that way anymore, is it, particularly if your neighbor happens to speak a different language or doesn't look like you.

We can talk about the lack of personal responsibility, the lack of morality, gay marriage being at the root of all of our evils or whatever else the OT prophesied, but in my mind, this lack of care for one another and this refusal to treat others as you would have them treat you is the true cause of our eventual doom.

About eight years ago, my husband and I stopped to help a young woman who had been booted out of our local Baker's Square because she lacked the money to pay for more than a cup of coffee.  She was homeless but was living at a local shelter which happened to be run by and located in the basement of a neighborhood church.  This shelter does a lot of good work, and my husband and I had attended several of their fund-raising functions.  But since it was a Sunday morning and services were being conducted, the residents of this shelter were kicked out for reasons that I do not even WANT to understand.  They were allowed back in once services were over.  And to top it all off, the reason Baker's Square made this young lady leave was because they wanted her table to be free for all of the people who normally came in for lunch after...church.

So Hemodoc, while I can understand that you believe that God will punish us all for advocating for gay marriage or for whatever else we will be sent to hell for, I respectfully submit that we will all be condemned for our inhumanity to man.  We all seem to be at each other's throats, and of course it is always someone else's fault. 

And btw, Baker's Square went bankrupt.  Call it God's Will.  I rejoice in the Lord every time I see that now-vacant lot!

We live in a nation that is loudly and decisively rejecting Jesus Christ in all aspects of our society which is one of the prophecies we knew would come as well. Because man has rejected God in this nation in the last few decades in no manner diminishes his teachings or Him in any way. I give money to homeless folks all the time. We are all actually condemned when we refuse His Son. That is what the Scriptures state.

John 3:16      ¶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17     For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18      ¶ He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19     And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20     For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21     But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Actually, I still live in an area where folks still reach out and help folks when they are in need. No traditional America is still alive and well but indeed under attack. If you want to live in traditional America, you can still find it today.

[MooseMom]

OK, I had more questions for you, Hemodoc, but I have promised not to ask any more, so I deleted them.  LOL!

[Bill Peckham]

Actually, having spent a lot of time when I was a kid with my dad's family who grew up on a farm in Kansas, the nature of my own childhood growing up in Alaska had much in common with my father's father and his father's father. In other words, there were many common themes to my traditional childhood with those of the last 3-4 generations. I truly had a traditional childhood sheltered in many ways from the craziness of the 1960's in the lower 48. Being isolated in Alaska was by far a blessing.

In such, your link is a political discourse on post election analysis by some fat cat GOP politicians. That really is not at all in line with traditional America. I would note that history was against the GOP from the start. If you exclude Gerald Ford since he never won any Presidential election, but was instead appointed, Jimmy Carter is the ONLY sitting president to lose reelection in about 90 years. History shows that the incumbent except in one case wins their second term.  Don't forget the soul searching the Dems did after Kerry lost in 2004.

In any case, back to traditional America. My kids did not grow up in traditional America. First of all, you cannot just let your kids run wild like we did as kids. Those days are long gone which in many ways is a distinct separation from the connection I have with my father's father and his father's father. The traditional values that they had is what I grew up with as well. I can't say the same for my kids sadly.  Yes, it is more than just nostalgia Bill, we have lost something very dear and cherished in America, that is traditional America. Once again, that is not speaking at all of politics since I grew up in a democratic household where they spoke often of the New Deal and Roosevelt and Truman. Traditional America has nothing at all to do with politics.

Peter, what you are describing really is ordinary nostalgia once you strip away the politics.  Kids today have fun in different ways from you and your forefathers, but they''re still having fun. I don't think that is the defining characteristic of traditional America O'Reilly was referencing. If Mitt Romney had won do you think O'Reilly would have had a segment on the end of traditional America? Regardless of your personal position Peter, the original question was what the hell was Bill O'Reilly talking about and to answer that you can not strip away the politics. The people on the cruise are all Bill O'Reilly avatars; their anxiety is the anxiety Bill O'Reilly was expressing.

[Bill Peckham]

In such, your link is a political discourse on post election analysis by some fat cat GOP politicians. That really is not at all in line with traditional America. I would note that history was against the GOP from the start. If you exclude Gerald Ford since he never won any Presidential election, but was instead appointed, Jimmy Carter is the ONLY sitting president to lose reelection in about 90 years. History shows that the incumbent except in one case wins their second term.  Don't forget the soul searching the Dems did after Kerry lost in 2004.

Color me confused, but wasn't George H.W. Bush a Republican, and did he not run for re-election in 1992 and lost to Bill Clinton?  I thought he was President from Jan 20, 1989 to Jan 20, 1993. Am I mistaken? If memory serves me correct, we had a 3rd Party candidate who participated in the debates for that eleciton as well, one Mr. Ross Perot, who ran as an Independent.  This all happened well within the last 90 years.

KarenInWA

Sorry, that is correct, Bush and Carter broke the mold of what the usual historic reelection rate is for second terms. But without Ross Perot, Bush would have easily won reelection making that a bit of anomaly as well.

You'd have to talk about John Anderson too, but what did in Carter was the primary challenge by Kennedy from his left.

[Hemodoc]

Bill, all discussions morph as the posts come in, but if you wish, back to the OP.  White America is NOT a minority. The 2010 census notes 72% are "white." The white race is still the majority but it is at the lowest point in our history.

As far as traditional America, that would I assume is the WASP we have heard of before. That is white anglo-saxon protestants.  I confess that I grew up as a WASP in all definable terms, after all, my dad was a Methodist minister. You can't get much more WASP than that. That cultural dominance began to change in the 1960's but once again, we are still a 72% caucasion nation.

Culture attributed to WASPs

The original WASP elite established the United States, its social structure and significant institutions, existing as the dominant social group beginning in the 17th century when the country's social hierarchy took shape, and lasting into the 1960s, when WASP society gradually began to relinquish national control and retreating amongst themselves, growing reminiscent of a cloistered Aristocracy, in what has been termed the Leisure class. Many scholars, including researcher Anthony Smith, argue that nations tend to be formed on the basis of a pre-modern ethnic core that provides the myths, symbols, and memories for the modern nation and that WASPs were indeed that core.[15]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Anglo-Saxon_Protestant

The Christian nature of the WASP heritage is certainly under siege throughout our entire society, but that is what Bill was referring to as traditional America in the OP that was quoted.

[jbeany]

The Christian nature of the WASP heritage is certainly under siege

The WASPs themselves are no longer the majority, though.  A huge portion of those listing themselves as white are no longer religious at all, and they don't identify with those "core values" the WASPs believe in.  And the birth rate trends show that whites will not even be the majority much longer.

I find the use of the phrase "under siege" quite telling.  It shows a perception that this is a battle - and a losing one at that.  I was raised in that same WASP environment, but I don't see it as a war at all.  More of a natural adaption to a changing environment.  Some of us are going to adapt easily and calmly.  Some aren't. 
Biology 101 - Adapt or Die.

[justjen321]

I dig you, jbeany.

That is all.

[Hemodoc]

The Christian nature of the WASP heritage is certainly under siege

The WASPs themselves are no longer the majority, though.  A huge portion of those listing themselves as white are no longer religious at all, and they don't identify with those "core values" the WASPs believe in.  And the birth rate trends show that whites will not even be the majority much longer.

I find the use of the phrase "under siege" quite telling.  It shows a perception that this is a battle - and a losing one at that.  I was raised in that same WASP environment, but I don't see it as a war at all.  More of a natural adaption to a changing environment.  Some of us are going to adapt easily and calmly.  Some aren't. 
Biology 101 - Adapt or Die.

Dear jbeany,

What part of Christianity is not under siege in America today?  I didn't say WASP's were under siege, I stated that for Christianity. That is a fact as more and more aspects of Christianity are attacked in our society, in our governments, state, local and federal. No, that is still true and siege is very much what is coming against Christianity and Christian values.

Since I don't believe in evolution, I guess I will just continue to believe in my Saviour and the truth of the Bible thank you.

[Gerald Lively]

A siege against Christianity?  Are you making yourself a victim?

In an era where information is exchanged at light-speed, the average American is asking questions like never before.  For instance; where is this God Christianity talks about?  One can chase the concept of God in circles until you have narrowed it down to a belief system.  Simply put, this is “faith” and nothing more.

There is no evidence of a God or Jesus Christ.  None?  Not even a little bit.

This is not a condemnation; people all over the world have used faith as a crutch when suffer.  It helps; and so does Santa Claus to little kids.  Yes HemoDoc, values are created and enforced by humans as is faith.  There are many religions and faiths. 

If someone asks you a question about Christianity that you cannot factually answer, you are not under siege, you are facing changing values – the values of intellectual Ideas.

gl

[Hemodoc]

A siege against Christianity?  Are you making yourself a victim?

In an era where information is exchanged at light-speed, the average American is asking questions like never before.  For instance; where is this God Christianity talks about?  One can chase the concept of God in circles until you have narrowed it down to a belief system.  Simply put, this is “faith” and nothing more.

There is no evidence of a God or Jesus Christ.  None?  Not even a little bit.

This is not a condemnation; people all over the world have used faith as a crutch when suffer.  It helps; and so does Santa Claus to little kids.  Yes HemoDoc, values are created and enforced by humans as is faith.  There are many religions and faiths. 

If someone asks you a question about Christianity that you cannot factually answer, you are not under siege, you are facing changing values – the values of intellectual Ideas.

gl

Hey Gerald, great to hear from you again. Funny how so many folks that don't believe in Jesus are so quick to state that there is no evidence when in fact that is not true at all. Believe what you wish my friend. However, I am not the least bit afraid to answer any question about Christianity folks wish to know.

If folks want to believe that traditional Christian values are not under attack, so be it.  All of you shall indeed have your time to explain that at a later time.

Fortunately, as a Christian, I have the Rock of Jesus Christ who is the same yesterday, today and forever. I am glad that God reached out and found me  18 year ago. No evidence, sorry you are so wrong my friend but I hope you find out before it is too late.  Good luck with all of your changing values and intellectual ideas folks. All I can say is good luck.

[Hemodoc]

We are indeed facing the loss of basic freedoms here in America. Thomas Jefferson made a very interesting statement which is preserved among other places in the D.C. Jefferson Memorial from panel three:

“God, who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that those liberties are the gift of God?”

America is once again embarking on a great social experiment of throwing away the traditional Judeo-Christian values that are at the heart of the founding of our nation. Jefferson stated well that relationship even though one may question how much he believed in the God of the Bible himself. Nevertheless, his words ring true for our time.

When we question the existence of the God of the Bible as a nation, it is no wonder indeed that our liberties are vanishing before our eyes and people willingly give up our constitutional liberties gladly. The entire understanding of what freedom really is has changed in only one generation. Yes, the WASP roots of our traditional American culture and their connection to Christianity is indeed under attack.  Adapt or Die jbeany. Really, who is going to make me die?  Yes, yes, Darwinistic social evolution is alive and well in America. Sadly, America is no longer a Christian nation. That in the end will not be to our benefit.

In any case, Jefferson also has another quote in his memorial:

Almighty God hath created the mind free...All attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens...are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion...No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship or ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion. I know but one code of morality for men whether acting singly or collectively.

All are free to their own opinions on religion including me.  Sadly, those that hold fast to the truth of the Bible are vilified in our culture today. Just the way it is, we have cast aside the ideals and values that our founding fathers set forth in their documents. Traditional America, no longer. It is actually under attack on many levels.

Have a great day Gerald.

[Hemodoc]

CNN’s Piers Morgan Says Bible is ‘Flawed’

“It’s flawed,” Morgan said during an interview with evangelical pastor and author Rick Warren. “Both the Bible and the Constitution were well-intentioned, but they are basically, inherently flawed – hence the need to amend it.

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/cnns-piers-morgan-says-bible-is-flawed.html

I would venture to state that a greater majority of folks agree with CNN's Piers Morgan than with Rick Warren on the merits of the Bible. Despite Gerald's rejection of the truth of the Bible, there is a reason why so many today understand that God's word is the truth. In any case, it is very common to see comments and opinions exactly as Piers Morgan and in fact, that is the growing trend. No, to deny that traditional American Judeo-Christian values are not under attack is to truly have your head buried in the sand.

[MooseMom]

I always find it fascinating when people quote Thomas Jefferson in regard to freedom and liberty.  He meant those words only for white, landowning males.  I don't see him telling us that God gave liberty to slaves and to women.

I do think that here in the US we strive to adhere to Judeo-Christian ideals.  Even those who have no faith or those who have a different faith generally agree that it is wrong to murder, that it is wrong to steal and that it is good to be kind and to treat others as you would want to be treated.  I don't think anyone who reads the Ten Commandments would say that any one of them is unfounded.  We may not all be what is generally understood as "evangelical", but that doesn't make us bad people. 

I do believe in evolution, but that doesn't mean that I don't think God didn't have a hand in it.  There's a reason that the Higgs Boson was nicknamed "the God particle."

[Hemodoc]

I always find it fascinating when people quote Thomas Jefferson in regard to freedom and liberty.  He meant those words only for white, landowning males.  I don't see him telling us that God gave liberty to slaves and to women.

I do think that here in the US we strive to adhere to Judeo-Christian ideals.  Even those who have no faith or those who have a different faith generally agree that it is wrong to murder, that it is wrong to steal and that it is good to be kind and to treat others as you would want to be treated.  I don't think anyone who reads the Ten Commandments would say that any one of them is unfounded.  We may not all be what is generally understood as "evangelical", but that doesn't make us bad people. 

I do believe in evolution, but that doesn't mean that I don't think God didn't have a hand in it.  There's a reason that the Higgs Boson was nicknamed "the God particle."

Dear Moosemom,  I take your statement at face value, but I suspect that you don't really agree with all of the 10 commandments. Most people agree with commandments 5-10, but they reject the first four:

Exodus 20:3     Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4     Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5     Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6     And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7     Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8     Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9     Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10     But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11     For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Do you keep the Sabbath, have no other gods before you, not take the name of the Lord in vain and not worship any graven images? Do you believe that the world was created in six days and God rested on the 7th? If you believe in evolution then you reject the 4th commandment since I suspect you reject the notion that God created the earth in 6 days.

Strive is a very strong word that truly does not fit the complete rejection the Judeo-Christian heritage by a majority of people in our US society today. Is support of gay marriage striving for Judeo-Christian ideals? Is abortion, or legalizing pot, or free sexual manifestations throughout our society? No, America openly and defiantly rejects these ideals today that traditional America founding on the WASP society embraced.

[jbeany]

  I take your statement at face value, but I suspect that you don't really agree with all of the 10 commandments.

I think plenty of Americans believe in God - but not the Bible.  Or only bits and pieces of it.  More and more Americans identify themselves as religious or spiritual, but not Christian.  I don't see an attack or a siege on Christianity - I see a retreat from harsh doctrines written by men who claim to be receiving the word of God but more often were - and are - acting in their own best interests.  So I'd have to say I'm in agreement with Piers Morgan - although I'd actually have to track down to the entire conversation that one line is quoted from to see just how far out of context it might be.

  All of you shall indeed have your time to explain that at a later time.

... but I hope you find out before it is too late... All I can say is good luck.

 I, like Gerald, think that lots of people get comfort from religion, and that it has done good things for those who need it and find strength from it.  I respect that power and I'm glad it works for them.
 
However, I'm always entertained by the threats of eternal doom aimed at those who don't believe.  I keep my childhood Bible on the same shelf I keep the rest of the fiction I saved from when I was a kid.  The threat of hell to non-believers is a bit like telling Christians that the Red Queen is going to order their heads chopped off when they fall through the looking glass.

Hey, as a kid, I believed in fairies so Tinkerbell wouldn't die, too.   

[Hemodoc]

  I take your statement at face value, but I suspect that you don't really agree with all of the 10 commandments.

I think plenty of Americans believe in God - but not the Bible.  Or only bits and pieces of it.  More and more Americans identify themselves as religious or spiritual, but not Christian.  I don't see an attack or a siege on Christianity - I see a retreat from harsh doctrines written by men who claim to be receiving the word of God but more often were - and are - acting in their own best interests.  So I'd have to say I'm in agreement with Piers Morgan - although I'd actually have to track down to the entire conversation that one line is quoted from to see just how far out of context it might be.

  All of you shall indeed have your time to explain that at a later time.

... but I hope you find out before it is too late... All I can say is good luck.

 I, like Gerald, think that lots of people get comfort from religion, and that it has done good things for those who need it and find strength from it.  I respect that power and I'm glad it works for them.
 
However, I'm always entertained by the threats of eternal doom aimed at those who don't believe.  I keep my childhood Bible on the same shelf I keep the rest of the fiction I saved from when I was a kid.  The threat of hell to non-believers is a bit like telling Christians that the Red Queen is going to order their heads chopped off when they fall through the looking glass.

Hey, as a kid, I believed in fairies so Tinkerbell wouldn't die, too.

Sorry that you believe the Bible is fiction. Not my take on that at all. I was saved through the study of Bible prophecy, those already fulfilled and those yet to be fulfilled. Sorry, but there is more than ample proof of the truth of the Bible, hopefully you will take another look at it again in the future. As far as heaven and hell, I have no doubt both are real.

[Bill Peckham]

Dear jbeany,

What part of Christianity is not under siege in America today?  I didn't say WASP's were under siege, I stated that for Christianity. That is a fact as more and more aspects of Christianity are attacked in our society, in our governments, state, local and federal. No, that is still true and siege is very much what is coming against Christianity and Christian values.

Since I don't believe in evolution, I guess I will just continue to believe in my Saviour and the truth of the Bible thank you.

What part of Christianity is not under siege?  How about the part where you can believe anything you want? And the part where you can freely gather in groups to profess your religion? And the part where you can conduct your life however you like? I don't understand the panic. Would you feel the same way if Romney had won?

[Bill Peckham]

I do believe in evolution, but that doesn't mean that I don't think God didn't have a hand in it.

I no not know if I no agree with this.