I Hate Dialysis Message Board
Dialysis Discussion => Dialysis: Transplant Discussion => Topic started by: Sara on January 07, 2006, 09:44:34 PM
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I've read several posts now that mention you (the patient) are going to die from complications anyway even after the transplant. I always thought that once you had the transplant and you went through a period of time where your body was either going to reject it or accept it and once you got that "OK" you were going to have a normal rest of your life, unless something in your health (diabetes, etc.) caused your kidney to fail again later. I'm just confused and little upset because I don't understand what's really going to happen to my husband after going through all this. Is he only going to die just a few years later?
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I've read several posts now that mention you (the patient) are going to die from complications anyway even after the transplant. I always thought that once you had the transplant and you went through a period of time where your body was either going to reject it or accept it and once you got that "OK" you were going to have a normal rest of your life, unless something in your health (diabetes, etc.) caused your kidney to fail again later. I'm just confused and little upset because I don't understand what's really going to happen to my husband after going through all this. Is he only going to die just a few years later?
Bottom line is a transplant is NEVER a cure for Kidney failure it too is just a treatment. A transplanted kidney WILL eventually fail that is a fact. The transplanted kidney may last 1 hour to 30 years or more but there is NEVER a safe zone. It is true the longer you have the transplant the chances of survival get better. But remember it is NOT a cure. The anti-rejection drugs can cause several other medical problems and highly increase your risk for infections. I myself chose not to get a transplant due to risks associated with the process. Some people have really good results with a transplant and others wish they had never tried in the first place. I have met people from both sides. Some people have several transplants in their lifetime.
Sorry if this post was harsh but that is the truth, no sugar coating and that is what this place is all about. I wish your husband Joe all the luck in the world with his transplant.
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Epoman is right on! A Transplant is just another form of dialysis. I had mine for 17 years and did very well. Too well! When I was losing it I was a basket case! I felt like I was losing my best friend and there was nothing I could do. I'm having to move back home to Spokane from Sacramento and giving up a $70K a year job. Hey! It was great while it lasted, but the higher you are the harder you fall!
I'm trying to get back on the list just so I have the option for another one. But, to tell you the truth, I'm not ready to get back on that roller coaster ride again just yet.
The drugs that keep your transplant have HUGE side affects. It is a big decision.
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I had the same experience as rerun. But I only had my kidney three years. I lost it due to a drug interaction. I have been reluctant to try again until recently as my dialysis access clotted (a fistula) and I have had four procedures to try unclotting the oringinal fistula and then the graft they put in, which had to be done twice because the first surgeon screwed up the graft clotted before I left the OR and he "nicked" some nerves and caused damage to feeling, movement and strenth in my hand and wrist. So I have decided to give transplantation another try, the doctors have been trying to get me to do it since the first one failed. I have had the same experience as rerun financial ruin, move back home give up a 50K a year job it was a hard fall. I am really tired of dialysis and want to try to get back to some kind of normal life however, I do worry about the affects of the anti-rejection drugs... long term.
Geoff
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I haven't put up my transplant story yet, I haven't really had much time to sit and give the whole story. Most of the time when I go on line I'm not at home >:( seems I'm hardly ever at home these days. But I'm getting a new laptop soon so I will be able to go on and and give my story.
Any way I have had three transplants and would do it again. As a matter of fact I do hope to be able to do it again. :)
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Does anyone know if there is a difference in survival between a living donor, or a cadavric donor transplant.
We were also of the opinion that once you had a transplant, you could go back to living a normal life, unless you die from unrelated causes.
Thanks for this site where we get to hear the truth from those who knows best, without it being wrapped in cotton.
Hugs, Ulrika
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Does anyone know if there is a difference in survival between a living donor, or a cadavric donor transplant.
We were also of the opinion that once you had a transplant, you could go back to living a normal life, unless you die from unrelated causes.
Thanks for this site where we get to hear the truth from those who knows best, without it being wrapped in cotton.
Hugs, Ulrika
Below is what I wrote above in this thread:
Bottom line is a transplant is NEVER a cure for Kidney failure it too is just a treatment. A transplanted kidney WILL eventually fail that is a fact. The transplanted kidney may last 1 hour to 30 years or more but there is NEVER a safe zone. It is true the longer you have the transplant the chances of survival get better. But remember it is NOT a cure. The anti-rejection drugs can cause several other medical problems and highly increase your risk for infections. I myself chose not to get a transplant due to risks associated with the process. Some people have really good results with a transplant and others wish they had never tried in the first place. I have met people from both sides. Some people have several transplants in their lifetime.
Sorry if this post was harsh but that is the truth, no sugar coating and that is what this place is all about. I wish your husband Joe all the luck in the world with his transplant.
So bottomline is NO you won't live a normal life after a tranplant. Unless you consider having a lowered immune system normal? or living with knowing that the kidney can fail at any time and you will be back on dialysis all over again. Because he is the hard truth "The Kidney WILL fail eventually" It could last an hour or it could last 20 years, but it's going to fail. That's why you hear all these people talk about mulitple transplants. There will be side effects from the drugs you take, weight gain, possible steroid induced diabetes, greater risk of infection, a multitude of problems. BUT you may be the lucky one, every once in a while I hear about a PERFECT transplant experience. I'm not trying to scare you, just give you the facts.
- Epoman
Owner/Admin
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Yes there is a better survival rate with a living related donor. But, cadaveric transplants are not far behind in survival rate. I don't want a living related or living period donor. I would feel too guilty if something happened to the donor or my transplanted kidney. It is hard enough knowing someone died in order for me to live. But, they are not going to need it.
I signed my donor card in 1983 not knowing I'd be on the waiting list 4 years later. I was so glad I had made that choice to give before I received the gift of life.
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I was going to type may transplant story but thinking about it, I am not going to, just to say Had it in 1980 given new wonder drug to stop rejection my mum and dad had to sign for it. OD on it, so damaged Transplanted kidney. Kidney sort of worked till 88 never out of hospital for longer that 4 weeks. Went back on CAPD, felt 100% better than the Transplant. Used to go on holiday, play sports, walking and felt really well on CAPD. Now on haemo feel like I felt having the transplant. Maybe the transplant was just bad luck for me. If I had not been put on that trail for the new anti-rejection drug, and just gone on steroids. It my have been a lot different. I do know a lot of people who have had transplants and look and feel really well. One is even a nurse now. But the other side, I also know a lot of people who are back on dialysis. I feel some people feel that a transplant is the one answer, maybe for some it is, but not many.
The drug is still being used now, but now with steroids, the levels are always being checked. Won't type the name of it, have not got a clue how to spell it.
Kevno
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If the question here is will you live a normal life after transplant there are several answers. The great majority of people do not have major complications these days particularly due to the advancement in immunosuppresive drugs. Speaking only from my own experience my quality of life is completely normal if you want to call it that. Yes the kidney could reject, yes treatment compliance is required, your immune system is not as effective as someone who is not on immunosuppresives etc. In 4 1/2 years I've had no major complications with the kidney, I've been around plenty of sick people, have had a few colds, and had a tiny patch of skin cancer(fixed in about 10 minutes). I never stopped working except for 3 months immediatly after the transplant that was handled very nicely by disability. So life is as it was before kidney disease and it isn't bad. Having been on dialysis for several years and having had the pleasure having it stop cold turkey with a good transplant I would always recommend transplant.
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If the question here is will you live a normal life after transplant there are several answers. The great majority of people do not have major complications these days particularly due to the advancement in immunosuppresive drugs. Speaking only from my own experience my quality of life is completely normal if you want to call it that. Yes the kidney could reject, yes treatment compliance is required, your immune system is not as effective as someone who is not on immunosuppresives etc. In 4 1/2 years I've had no major complications with the kidney, I've been around plenty of sick people, have had a few colds, and had a tiny patch of skin cancer(fixed in about 10 minutes). I never stopped working except for 3 months immediatly after the transplant that was handled very nicely by disability. So life is as it was before kidney disease and it isn't bad. Having been on dialysis for several years and having had the pleasure having it stop cold turkey with a good transplant I would always recommend transplant.
Awesome, it's nice to read about some success stories. I hope your kidney lasts you for the rest of your life. The more the drugs/technology advance the more success stories will be reading.
- Epoman
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I am out of touch with Transplant drugs now. Do now a couple of my friends who have had their Transplanted kidney for over 25years. They only come to the hospital once every 6 months for a blood test. Both look great, have children. One is even a Granny now >:D ( she does not like me calling her Granny >:D So I call he it all the time when I she her ;D)
I think when I had my transplant the odds of you keeping it was not that good. Then if you kept the tansplanted kidney for 5 years is was a success. So in on sense mine would have been called a success. (But not from my point of view). But all things move on, the success rate is a lot better now because of the new drugs.
I am happy for you livecam that you transplant as work so well, and may it carry on.
Kevno
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I am a little offended that people have said life isnt normal after a transplant. If you have never had one, how would you know? Its true that some people have alot of trouble afterwards, BUT thats not EVERYONE. You can lead a normal life with a healthy transplant. And YES, it does happen. I had an excellent transplant, and know many others who have too.The only main out of the normthings were - you must take all your pills, stay well hydrated, and generally look after yourself. Saying you cant lead a normal life is misleading and wrong. You will not know how it is going to be until you go through with it if you so choose.
Its no comparison to dialysis, its the opposite. You have to drink alot, your diet is not restricted (you do need to be careful about weight gain), and you arent sitting on your arse 3-4 days a week for hours at a time hooked up to a dialysis machine!
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I am a little offended that people have said life isnt normal after a transplant. If you have never had one, how would you know? Its true that some people have alot of trouble afterwards, BUT thats not EVERYONE. You can lead a normal life with a healthy transplant. And YES, it does happen. I had an excellent transplant, and know many others who have too.The only main out of the normthings were - you must take all your pills, stay well hydrated, and generally look after yourself. Saying you cant lead a normal life is misleading and wrong. You will not know how it is going to be until you go through with it if you so choose.
Its no comparison to dialysis, its the opposite. You have to drink alot, your diet is not restricted (you do need to be careful about weight gain), and you arent sitting on your arse 3-4 days a week for hours at a time hooked up to a dialysis machine!
I'll repeat what I said:
So bottom line is NO you won't live a normal life after a transplant. Unless you consider having a lowered immune system normal? or living with knowing that the kidney can fail at any time and you will be back on dialysis all over again. Because he is the hard truth "The Kidney WILL fail eventually" It could last an hour or it could last 20 years, but it's going to fail. That's why you hear all these people talk about multiple transplants. There will be side effects from the drugs you take, weight gain, possible steroid induced diabetes, greater risk of infection, a multitude of problems. BUT you may be the lucky one, every once in a while I hear about a PERFECT transplant experience. I'm not trying to scare you, just give you the facts.
aMbEr_79, many people here have had transplant and most of them FAILED!. When I say you won't live a normal life that is very true, you may live a better life but it is different than having a NORMAL HEALTHY body/life. Some of our members here have had MULTIPLE transplants in their life. You ask ANY doctor and they will tell you the transplanted kidney will eventually fail. It is true there are success stories but the sad stories far out weigh the happy ones.
Let me quote you:
The transplant worked perfectly for 7 years. Then I started to get very tired all the time, but it took 2 years before I was showing signs of the transplant failing. It failed completely after 9.5 years.
That's great that your kidney lasted almost 10 years and I glad it lasted so long for you, however when it happened, you had to go through all the emotions that you went through when you first started dialysis. And now you're back on dialysis, that's not living normal. I think you need to read the introduce yourself section again to read our members bio. You said:
I am a little offended that people have said life isn't normal after a transplant. If you have never had one, how would you know?
Well I'm a little offended to, that you made assumptions about the members here. Many who have posted here have had a transplant. It's true I have never had a transplant, I always choose not to, however I have seen many people get a transplant then get back on dialysis and some (a few) are now dead.
A transplant can be a blessing or it can cause you to come out of it worse off. It's a gamble some are willing to take, I choose not to get a transplant almost 12 years ago, technology/drugs has improved so it's less of a gamble now-a-days. But it's still a crap shoot.
- Epoman
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Every patient has his/her experience and many try to project it on others.
But no one can tell others what's good for them.
That's true for treatment modality, diet, labs, treatment time, and transplant.
I left the brumley board because of a bunch of PD cheerleaders that persistently tried to convince every newcomer that PD was the best thing in the world. Trouble was, sometimes they hit on a person that had a bad experience with PD, like our Martian friend here (hi DMC). 8)
A good example about useless experience is my transplants.
The first one worked fine and looked like a success. In 13 days I was back to work. But after 6 weeks it was out because of CMV. :(
The second never started and left me with 3 years of a deadly infection. :(
The third caught up after a months, for about a year I had to go to the tx clinic a few times a week, and now, after almost 5 years I see my doc once every 6 months. :)
Conclusion: none.
Do I live normal life? Not even in my dreams. (Still have nightmares about going back on dialysis).
Was it better to stay on dialysis? Not for me! (And dialysis was easy on me).
Will I go for a fourth? Before the third I said that it would be the last one, but now, who knows? :-\ Past experience means nothing.
My recommendation to everyone is to learn his/her options but to remember that whatever you choose might not work for you. If you don't try you don't know, but that's nobody's business.
Everyone has to make his/her own decision and shouldn't apologize or feel ashamed for that.
Gil
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I agree with you Gil. Noone can tell you what you can do in your own treatment plans.
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I don't think anyone is "telling" anyone they have to do anything. We are stating our opinions and other members can take it or leave it. But, that is one reason to be a member of this site. Gather the information presented and go from there. 8)
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What I am trying to say is....while my transplant was working, my life was normal. It was worth it. If I had of chose not to get a transplant I would probly be up shit creek by now, because we all know the risks of being on long term dialysis. I agree that everyone has their own opinion, but I find you Epoman, to be very rude and focus on the negative.
My transplant gave me 7 years of normal life, that I could never have on dialysis. Yes, there are downsides to a transplant, but any I had, were worth it. Like I have said, its your choice if you want to do it. And you can never tell if it is going to be good or bad for you. Technologies are improving all the time, and I am going to give it another go. I dont want to live a pathetic life of being on dialysis and not being able to work. Living on one income is a bitch! I am a qualified nurse, I should be looking after others, not just myself :)
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aMbEr_79
I have only had a bad experience with a transplanted kidney. It hang on for nearly seven years, last two were hell. Always in and out of Hospital, with rejections. Felt so ill with the kidney. I was happy to go back on CAPD felt 100% better, than having the transplant, but after 12 years CAPD nearly killed me. Been on haemo for 6 years now. Still on the transplant list. Would try another one. Just to get out of haemodialysis.
Kevno
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Hey Kevno;
My daughter just finished her pd training, and is now on her 4th day of doing it at home. So far it has gone very well, she is a real trooper.
We were told at the clinic that you cannot be on pd indefinitely as the membranes will wear out.
Could you tell me what happened to you after 12 years of capd?
As you know, I have created a blog in desperation to find a kidney for Sandra. However, I also want to use my blog to educate others on what it is like to live with end stage renal failure.
I want to be 100% accurate on what I publish, and the best way to get the truth is through those who are going through it. I appreciate any feedback the people on this board can give me. Even tell your story in my guestbook, or in the comment section under my (almost) daily entries.
http://kidneytransplantforkyliesmom.blogspot.com/
Hugs, Christina (ulrika)
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What I am trying to say is....while my transplant was working, my life was normal. It was worth it. If I had of chose not to get a transplant I would probly be up shit creek by now, because we all know the risks of being on long term dialysis. I agree that everyone has their own opinion, but I find you Epoman, to be very rude and focus on the negative.
My transplant gave me 7 years of normal life, that I could never have on dialysis. Yes, there are downsides to a transplant, but any I had, were worth it. Like I have said, its your choice if you want to do it. And you can never tell if it is going to be good or bad for you. Technologies are improving all the time, and I am going to give it another go. I dont want to live a pathetic life of being on dialysis and not being able to work. Living on one income is a bitch! I am a qualified nurse, I should be looking after others, not just myself :)
WHERE/WHAT did you find about my post "very rude"? However I find your comment "live a pathetic life of being on dialysis" VERY RUDE and hurtful to the many people who live on dialysis. Whether they choose to have a transplant or not and those who are not eligible for a transplant. I do NOT find my life PATHETIC one bit, yes I hate dialysis and I wish I was not on dialysis, BUT I would do it all over again if it meant I would be able to have the loving wife I have, the wonderful son I have and being able to have the skill to create this website which has helped many. So if you consider me pathetic well that's VERY RUDE/HURTFULL. Your comment is VERY insulting, There are numerous people who are on dialysis who have become great advocates for this disease and have made great progress for patients, do you find their life PATHETIC?
I am not focusing on the negative, I look at the facts and make my decisions on the facts. And the fact is, that a transplanted kidney WILL FAIL, whether it be 20 years or 20 minutes. Can you understand that? It is my choice to make and no one Else's. I wish the BEST and may GOD himself shine on a transplanted kidney for someone who is willing to take that path. And I wish that person the best.
You said "My transplant gave me 7 years of normal life, that I could never have on dialysis." Do me a favor and DEFINE Normal? in my life I done many normal things, while on dialysis, I have self taught myself computers, I can build a computer from scratch, I can build websites, I am raising a son who is top of his class and in the gifted program at school, I supported my with in her finishing college, supported my wife in her goal of having a job she loves and cherishes, and according to some of the members here they thank GOD for this site. Because of Kidney Failure I have a opportunity MOST men do not, I am a stay-at-home dad, I am VERY active in my sons school, I am currently one of the Vice-Presidents of my sons PTA, I am the Yearbook chairman, volunteer in the class every Thursday, all morning, and now I'm the schools Historian. I LOVE being a stay-home dad and would not give that up for the WORLD. If given a choice to go back in time and change my fate, if it meant losing what I have now, the answer would be a undisputed NO! and I have been on hemo for almost 13 years STRAIGHT! I HATE my illness but I love my life.
And I most definitely don't think (as you do) my life is PATHETIC. This is my life, to me, it's what I know and to me that's Normal.
So please point out where I was "very rude" and "focused on the negative".
- Epoman
Owner/Admin
ihatedialysis.com
ihatedialysis.net
ihatedialysis.org
Father
Husband
Dialysis Patient
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What I am trying to say is....while my transplant was working, my life was normal. It was worth it. If I had of chose not to get a transplant I would probly be up shit creek by now, because we all know the risks of being on long term dialysis. I agree that everyone has their own opinion, but I find you Epoman, to be very rude and focus on the negative.
My transplant gave me 7 years of normal life, that I could never have on dialysis. Yes, there are downsides to a transplant, but any I had, were worth it. Like I have said, its your choice if you want to do it. And you can never tell if it is going to be good or bad for you. Technologies are improving all the time, and I am going to give it another go. I dont want to live a pathetic life of being on dialysis and not being able to work. Living on one income is a bitch! I am a qualified nurse, I should be looking after others, not just myself :)
WHERE/WHAT did you find about my post "very rude"? However I find your comment "live a pathetic life of being on dialysis" VERY RUDE and hurtful to the many people who live on dialysis. Whether they choose to have a transplant or not and those who are not eligible for a transplant. I do NOT find my life PATHETIC one bit, yes I hate dialysis and I wish I was not on dialysis, BUT I would do it all over again if it meant I would be able to have the loving wife I have, the wonderful son I have and being able to have the skill to create this website which has helped many. So if you consider me pathetic well that's VERY RUDE/HURTFULL. Your comment is VERY insulting, There are numerous people who are on dialysis who have become great advocates for this disease and have made great progress for patients, do you find their life PATHETIC?
I am not focusing on the negative, I look at the facts and make my decisions on the facts. And the fact is, that a transplanted kidney WILL FAIL, whether it be 20 years or 20 minutes. Can you understand that? It is my choice to make and no one Else's. I wish the BEST and may GOD himself shine on a transplanted kidney for someone who is willing to take that path. And I wish that person the best.
You said "My transplant gave me 7 years of normal life, that I could never have on dialysis." Do me a favor and DEFINE Normal? in my life I done many normal things, while on dialysis, I have self taught myself computers, I can build a computer from scratch, I can build websites, I am raising a son who is top of his class and in the gifted program at school, I supported my with in her finishing college, supported my wife in her goal of having a job she loves and cherishes, and according to some of the members here they thank GOD for this site. Because of Kidney Failure I have a opportunity MOST men do not, I am a stay-at-home dad, I am VERY active in my sons school, I am currently one of the Vice-Presidents of my sons PTA, I am the Yearbook chairman, volunteer in the class every Thursday, all morning, and now I'm the schools Historian. I LOVE being a stay-home dad and would not give that up for the WORLD. If given a choice to go back in time and change my fate, if it meant losing what I have now, the answer would be a undisputed NO! and I have been on hemo for almost 13 years STRAIGHT! I HATE my illness but I love my life.
And I most definitely don't think (as you do) my life is PATHETIC. This is my life, to me, it's what I know and to me that's Normal.
So please point out where I was "very rude" and "focused on the negative".
- Epoman
Owner/Admin
ihatedialysis.com
ihatedialysis.net
ihatedialysis.org
Father
Husband
Dialysis Patient
No comments, ??? I'm very surprised.
- Epoman
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No comments, ??? I'm very surprised.
- Epoman
Here's one...I'm very glad to see your outlook has changed. I remember how it was when I first joined the site. I'm happy for you.
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No comments, ??? I'm very surprised.
- Epoman
Here's one...I'm very glad to see your outlook has changed. I remember how it was when I first joined the site. I'm happy for you.
??? ::) what are you talking about ::) ??? Nothing has changed. What gives you that idea? Dialysis sucks, and I hate it. I do wish I was dead sometimes and I can't stand the fact that I live this way. But it is ME and I do what I do to survive. I have ALWAYS loved my wife and my son, and I have ALWAYS loved being a dad, and I always will. However, my outlook has not changed one bit, I know kidney disease is going to chip away at any strength I have left until it finally beats me. And then I will finally have peace. So please explain to me some examples of how my outlook has changed since you first joined. It's true I have done some good things with my life, and I have excepted my fate (no matter how much I hate it) many years ago, however I still do and ALWAYS will hate dialysis. Which is why I named this site the way I did. But please show me where I have changed my attitude since I first started this site? You said "you remember my outlook when you first joined" please elaborate how was my attitude different than now?
- Epoman
P.S. I mean no disrespect to you in this post, I am just curious. :)
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Because back then I remember you talking about ending it as soon as your son was done with school. I've noticed a difference pretty much since you started posting about the at-home dialysis - that new machine.
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Because back then I remember you talking about ending it as soon as your son was done with school. I've noticed a difference pretty much since you started posting about the at-home dialysis - that new machine.
Oh I still think about that, believe me. In fact I was telling a patient that very thing today after dialysis. I was telling him how I have 10 years to go until my son turns 18. Yeah the NxStage (portable home dialysis machine) is nice but I'll still be on dialysis. Like I had said before "I'll still hate dialysis, I'll just hate it from home" :-\
- Epoman
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Well, whether you think so or not, I have noticed a difference in your "attitude" and I noticed it change around the time you posted about the NxStage.
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Well, whether you think so or not, I have noticed a difference in your "attitude" and I noticed it change around the time you posted about the NxStage.
Honestly I resent the fact that you think you know me and suddenly after 13 years of living hooked to a machine you think that a NxStage machine would change my outlook on life, a machine that I have not even begun training on yet. Here let me explain it again.
I Hate Dialysis, and I will seriously consider stopping dialysis when my son goes off to college. By then I would be on for 24 years (STRAIGHT no transplant) :-\
I Hate Davita, I think they are a uncaring corporation. >:D
I Hate the fact that worthless gang-bangers who murder and steal have perfectly good kidneys. >:(
I Hate the fact that I have not taken a piss in 12 years >:(
I Hate the fact that I am in a WHEELCHAIR due to dialysis. >:(
The list can go on and on......
Honestly I am not trying to put up this negative persona. On some things I am negative and somethings I am positive. I have the same feelings that I have when I first started this site. So show me the reason/proof of me having a change of attitude, please share with the rest of the members. Show me my posts that made you think I'm less negative now.
Seriously you offended me. You offended me by telling me I have a better attitude about dialysis because of NxStage. It offends me that you think all my suffering (past and present) is now better and I'm in a "happy" place because of NxStage ??? I have gone through so much shit in my life that GOD himself would have to come down and give me a brand new body to make me truly happy again.
- Epoman
Offended Admin
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Amen to that Epoman! I want a new body, anyone got one to trade? You can have the old worn out one with the lousy kidneys! Here is the want ad I would place if I could.
Will trade for new body, one broken down older model body. 43 years on it. Bad kidneys. Scars. Want new model with working kidneys, and good heart. Must be strong.
Katherine
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Well, whether you think so or not, I have noticed a difference in your "attitude" and I noticed it change around the time you posted about the NxStage.
Honestly I resent the fact that you think you know me and suddenly after 13 years of living hooked to a machine you think that a NxStage machine would change my outlook on life, a machine that I have not even begun training on yet. Here let me explain it again.
I Hate Dialysis, and I will seriously consider stopping dialysis when my son goes off to college. By then I would be on for 24 years (STRAIGHT no transplant) :-\
I Hate Davita, I think they are a uncaring corporation. >:D
I Hate the fact that worthless gang-bangers who murder and steal have perfectly good kidneys. >:(
I Hate the fact that I have not taken a piss in 12 years >:(
I Hate the fact that I am in a WHEELCHAIR due to dialysis. >:(
The list can go on and on......
Honestly I am not trying to put up this negative persona. On some things I am negative and somethings I am positive. I have the same feelings that I have when I first started this site. So show me the reason/proof of me having a change of attitude, please share with the rest of the members. Show me my posts that made you think I'm less negative now.
Seriously you offended me. You offended me by telling me I have a better attitude about dialysis because of NxStage. It offends me that you think all my suffering (past and present) is now better and I'm in a "happy" place because of NxStage ??? I have gone through so much shit in my life that GOD himself would have to come down and give me a brand new body to make me truly happy again.
- Epoman
Offended Admin
Oh please. You are reading way more into that than was intended. I thought it was a good thing. Where did I say "all is better, forget all your past troubles"? Please, point it out. And also, please forgive me for "thinking I know you." I just made a casual observation based on my spending the last several months on this site, reading just about every post you've made. You've offended me by jumping all over me for nothing. Thanks so much. :(
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In case you were wondering, these are 2 of your posts that made me think that...
This will change my world and I can't express the feelings I have right now. Lately I have been getting really down going to the clinic and rightfully...
Before I used to dream of seeing my son graduate high school and I would be content in knowing that I raised him and turned him into a man before my kidney failure finally got the best of me. But then a company like NxStage comes along and gives me hope and the very possibility of seeing my own son become a father himself. NxStage did not invent a new dialysis machine, they found a way to keep a father alive longer for his son.
I am sorry if you are truly offended. I hate to offend anyone. But I don't appreciate my head being bitten off for a friendly observation.
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Well, whether you think so or not, I have noticed a difference in your "attitude" and I noticed it change around the time you posted about the NxStage.
Honestly I resent the fact that you think you know me and suddenly after 13 years of living hooked to a machine you think that a NxStage machine would change my outlook on life, a machine that I have not even begun training on yet. Here let me explain it again.
I Hate Dialysis, and I will seriously consider stopping dialysis when my son goes off to college. By then I would be on for 24 years (STRAIGHT no transplant) :-\
I Hate Davita, I think they are a uncaring corporation. >:D
I Hate the fact that worthless gang-bangers who murder and steal have perfectly good kidneys. >:(
I Hate the fact that I have not taken a piss in 12 years >:(
I Hate the fact that I am in a WHEELCHAIR due to dialysis. >:(
The list can go on and on......
Honestly I am not trying to put up this negative persona. On some things I am negative and somethings I am positive. I have the same feelings that I have when I first started this site. So show me the reason/proof of me having a change of attitude, please share with the rest of the members. Show me my posts that made you think I'm less negative now.
Seriously you offended me. You offended me by telling me I have a better attitude about dialysis because of NxStage. It offends me that you think all my suffering (past and present) is now better and I'm in a "happy" place because of NxStage ??? I have gone through so much shit in my life that GOD himself would have to come down and give me a brand new body to make me truly happy again.
- Epoman
Offended Admin
Oh please. You are reading way more into that than was intended. I thought it was a good thing. Where did I say "all is better, forget all your past troubles"? Please, point it out. And also, please forgive me for "thinking I know you." I just made a casual observation based on my spending the last several months on this site, reading just about every post you've made. You've offended me by jumping all over me for nothing. Thanks so much. :(
No It wasn't a "good thing" and believe me I was not jumping on you. You said: Well, whether you think so or not, I have noticed a difference in your "attitude" that is the comment that pissed me off, you make it sound like I do not even know myself.
Also you said: I'm very glad to see your outlook has changed. I remember how it was when I first joined the site. I'm happy for you.
I'm very glad to see your outlook has changed ??? ::)
I remember how it was when I first joined the site. ??? ::)
Try to understand I am a dialysis patient, you are not, so I am a little touchy when someone not on dialysis, tries to tell me they know me, or has seen a difference in my attitude. But please don't let that comment upset you or think you are not welcome on this site, you are welcome and you are a valuable member to the site. I am just speaking the way I always do, it's nothing personal. That is what this site is all about, being able to speak your mind. So if I offended you, I apoligize.
- Epoman
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In case you were wondering, these are 2 of your posts that made me think that...
This will change my world and I can't express the feelings I have right now. Lately I have been getting really down going to the clinic and rightfully...
Before I used to dream of seeing my son graduate high school and I would be content in knowing that I raised him and turned him into a man before my kidney failure finally got the best of me. But then a company like NxStage comes along and gives me hope and the very possibility of seeing my own son become a father himself. NxStage did not invent a new dialysis machine, they found a way to keep a father alive longer for his son.
I am sorry if you are truly offended. I hate to offend anyone. But I don't appreciate my head being bitten off for a friendly observation.
Well notice in that first quote, it says "will" well I haven't even started yet, plus yeah it will make me feel better but remember I will be going from 3 times a week to 6 times a week. :o and for the time being, I still go in-clinic, and I am still really sick of it. So nothing has changed.
As to the second quote, it's true they did invent a miraculous machine, and it may give me the possibility of seeing my son become a father himself, however that would mean.... let's say for example, my son becomes a father at 25, that means I will be on dialysis for over 30 years straight NO transplant. Now that's a long ass time. And a lot of suffering along the way. And I will hate every minute of it.
And about the comment you made: But I don't appreciate my head being bitten off let me quote you for a reply to that statement Oh please. You are reading way more into that than was intended.
- Epoman
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Fist of all Epoman and Sara calm down >:( >:(
If you two want to agrue can't you just send each other a PM. You two of gone miles of the tread of this post. You are just backward and forwards with the same Quotes. I thought the idea of this site was to help each other, give advise and have a rant about dialysis. Not have a RANT at each other.
Now you two can have a RANT at me.
Kevno.
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Fist of all Epoman and Sara calm down >:( >:(
If you two want to agree can't you just send each other a PM. You two of gone miles of the tread of this post. You are just backward and forwards with the same Quotes. I thought the idea of this site was to help each other, give advise and have a rant about dialysis. Not have a RANT at each other.
Now you two can have a RANT at me.
Kevno.
Can I, pretty please. ::)
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I got enough anger rightnow. I will rant at everyone!
Rant Rant Rant!
There!
Katherine
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Fist of all Epoman and Sara calm down >:( >:(
If you two want to agrue can't you just send each other a PM. You two of gone miles of the tread of this post. You are just backward and forwards with the same Quotes. I thought the idea of this site was to help each other, give advise and have a rant about dialysis. Not have a RANT at each other.
Now you two can have a RANT at me.
Kevno.
I'm calm now. ;D
Epoman, I will accept that you have the right to be a little touchy about things if you think that I, not being a dialysis patient, am trying to tell you how you are feeling. Again, I apologize since that's the way you took it.
I'm not going to comment on the other things you said because I'll just get mad again. It's over, it's done with, it's a new day.
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Looks like I came on this too late. Darn, I'm not doing my job! >:D
Rerun~ Moderator..
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I am a little offended that people have said life isnt normal after a transplant. If you have never had one, how would you know? Its true that some people have alot of trouble afterwards, BUT thats not EVERYONE. You can lead a normal life with a healthy transplant. And YES, it does happen. I had an excellent transplant, and know many others who have too.The only main out of the normthings were - you must take all your pills, stay well hydrated, and generally look after yourself. Saying you cant lead a normal life is misleading and wrong. You will not know how it is going to be until you go through with it if you so choose.
Its no comparison to dialysis, its the opposite. You have to drink alot, your diet is not restricted (you do need to be careful about weight gain), and you arent sitting on your arse 3-4 days a week for hours at a time hooked up to a dialysis machine!
I'll repeat what I said:
So bottom line is NO you won't live a normal life after a transplant. Unless you consider having a lowered immune system normal? or living with knowing that the kidney can fail at any time and you will be back on dialysis all over again. Because he is the hard truth "The Kidney WILL fail eventually" It could last an hour or it could last 20 years, but it's going to fail. That's why you hear all these people talk about multiple transplants. There will be side effects from the drugs you take, weight gain, possible steroid induced diabetes, greater risk of infection, a multitude of problems. BUT you may be the lucky one, every once in a while I hear about a PERFECT transplant experience. I'm not trying to scare you, just give you the facts.
aMbEr_79, many people here have had transplant and most of them FAILED!. When I say you won't live a normal life that is very true, you may live a better life but it is different than having a NORMAL HEALTHY body/life. Some of our members here have had MULTIPLE transplants in their life. You ask ANY doctor and they will tell you the transplanted kidney will eventually fail. It is true there are success stories but the sad stories far out weigh the happy ones.
Let me quote you:
The transplant worked perfectly for 7 years. Then I started to get very tired all the time, but it took 2 years before I was showing signs of the transplant failing. It failed completely after 9.5 years.
That's great that your kidney lasted almost 10 years and I glad it lasted so long for you, however when it happened, you had to go through all the emotions that you went through when you first started dialysis. And now you're back on dialysis, that's not living normal. I think you need to read the introduce yourself section again to read our members bio. You said:
I am a little offended that people have said life isn't normal after a transplant. If you have never had one, how would you know?
Well I'm a little offended to, that you made assumptions about the members here. Many who have posted here have had a transplant. It's true I have never had a transplant, I always choose not to, however I have seen many people get a transplant then get back on dialysis and some (a few) are now dead.
A transplant can be a blessing or it can cause you to come out of it worse off. It's a gamble some are willing to take, I choose not to get a transplant almost 12 years ago, technology/drugs has improved so it's less of a gamble now-a-days. But it's still a crap shoot.
- Epoman
I honestly couldnt be bothered replying, Im not on here to argue. I was referring to my own dialysis life, at no point did I mention your life, or anyone elses. I wont go into my life details, and why I think this, as its my private life. I dont like things to be sugar coated either, but theres a time and a place.
You say
" many people here have had transplant and most of them FAILED!." - Where is here? How many?
" It is true there are success stories but the sad stories far out weigh the happy ones." - What statistics is this based on?
" you had to go through all the emotions that you went through when you first started dialysis. And now you're back on dialysis, that's not living normal." - I'll repeat something you said in another post....."you dont know me".... - When I first started dialysis it was a completely different experience to what Im experiencing now. I still stand by my comment that the transplant was worth it 110%. I have been through worse emotions not even related to this. Of course having a failed transplant is not living normal, I dont even understand why you would say such a comment.
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aMvEr 79
If you are a fully qualified Nurse, why should Epoman need to get you the stats on failed Kidney Transplant,being an qualified nurse and on dialysis yourself YOU SHOULD KNOW THE STATS >:( I know them. A so called successful transplant is one that lasts for five years. How can that be a success :-\ It has failed, mine never really worked properly from the beginning, but because It hang on for nearly sever years it was classed as a success. How is that :-\ It is the Specialists who make up these decisions, when a kidney is a success or failure, you own kidney you had it for over nine years. It still failed. There are only four of use left from when I was a child on dialysis two have had transplants with have lasted for twenty five years, one as had three transplants two so called successful ones. He is now back on haemo. The rest, I have a photo which shows seventeen of them have died. Nearly everyone of them had had a transplant are two that I know of. Not nice but that is the way it is.
To put it another way stats stink >:( I have noticed that you write the nurses way, the nurse is right the patient wrong. Many times I have shown a nurse how to deal with patients. Plus listen, not just jump in head first thinking what you think you know is right every time. I respect nurses, will always respect nurses. But you must respect what we have to say. You seen hell bent on trying to argue. If you feel you had a normal life with you transplant. Fair enough, no argument there. That is the way you feel. After being on dialysis. It would feel like a normal life to me, But I could never accept it as normal. Being on all those tablets, always at the back of your mind is the kidney going to fail. That is always at the back of your mind every time you have a blood test, are should I say it was when I had the blood tests for my transplanted kidney.
Put another way chill out aMbEr_79 we all have our own views, leave it at that ;)
Kevno
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aMvEr 79
If you are a fully qualified Nurse, why should Epoman need to get you the stats on failed Kidney Transplant,being an qualified nurse and on dialysis yourself YOU SHOULD KNOW THE STATS >:( I know them. A so called successful transplant is one that lasts for five years. How can that be a success :-\ It has failed, mine never really worked properly from the beginning, but because It hang on for nearly sever years it was classed as a success. How is that :-\ It is the Specialists who make up these decisions, when a kidney is a success or failure, you own kidney you had it for over nine years. It still failed. There are only four of use left from when I was a child on dialysis two have had transplants with have lasted for twenty five years, one as had three transplants two so called successful ones. He is now back on haemo. The rest, I have a photo which shows seventeen of them have died. Nearly everyone of them had had a transplant are two that I know of. Not nice but that is the way it is.
To put it another way stats stink >:( I have noticed that you write the nurses way, the nurse is right the patient wrong. Many times I have shown a nurse how to deal with patients. Plus listen, not just jump in head first thinking what you think you know is right every time. I respect nurses, will always respect nurses. But you must respect what we have to say. You seen hell bent on trying to argue. If you feel you had a normal life with you transplant. Fair enough, no argument there. That is the way you feel. After being on dialysis. It would feel like a normal life to me, But I could never accept it as normal. Being on all those tablets, always at the back of your mind is the kidney going to fail. That is always at the back of your mind every time you have a blood test, are should I say it was when I had the blood tests for my transplanted kidney.
Put another way chill out aMbEr_79 we all have our own views, leave it at that ;)
Kevno
Thank you Kevno, well said. Stats are bullshit! You and I are talking about real life experiences, from what you have seen with our own eyes.
aMbEr_79, You said: I honestly couldnt be bothered replying You couldn't be bothered? You don't have the respect to reply to the Admin/Owner of the site which you use. ???
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Epoman is right on! A Transplant is just another form of dialysis. I had mine for 17 years and did very well. Too well! When I was losing it I was a basket case! I felt like I was losing my best friend and there was nothing I could do. I'm having to move back home to Spokane from Sacramento and giving up a $70K a year job. Hey! It was great while it lasted, but the higher you are the harder you fall!
I'm trying to get back on the list just so I have the option for another one. But, to tell you the truth, I'm not ready to get back on that roller coaster ride again just yet.
The drugs that keep your transplant have HUGE side affects. It is a big decision.
Of all your years with a kidney transplant what were/was the worsest side effects from the medication? How did the transplant affect your job duties?
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Of all your years with a kidney transplant what were/was the worsest side effects from the medication? How did the transplant affect your job duties?
The worst side effects are the slow silent ones like thinning of the skin and skin cancers, thinning of the veins and bones. I credit this mostly to 18 years of Prednisone.
The transplant only "enhanced" my job duties. I had energy and felt great. It was when I started losing my kidney, and eventually ended up back on Hemo that my job went to hell.
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aMvEr 79
If you are a fully qualified Nurse, why should Epoman need to get you the stats on failed Kidney Transplant,being an qualified nurse and on dialysis yourself YOU SHOULD KNOW THE STATS >:( I know them. A so called successful transplant is one that lasts for five years. How can that be a success :-\ It has failed, mine never really worked properly from the beginning, but because It hang on for nearly sever years it was classed as a success. How is that :-\ It is the Specialists who make up these decisions, when a kidney is a success or failure, you own kidney you had it for over nine years. It still failed. There are only four of use left from when I was a child on dialysis two have had transplants with have lasted for twenty five years, one as had three transplants two so called successful ones. He is now back on haemo. The rest, I have a photo which shows seventeen of them have died. Nearly everyone of them had had a transplant are two that I know of. Not nice but that is the way it is.
To put it another way stats stink >:( I have noticed that you write the nurses way, the nurse is right the patient wrong. Many times I have shown a nurse how to deal with patients. Plus listen, not just jump in head first thinking what you think you know is right every time. I respect nurses, will always respect nurses. But you must respect what we have to say. You seen hell bent on trying to argue. If you feel you had a normal life with you transplant. Fair enough, no argument there. That is the way you feel. After being on dialysis. It would feel like a normal life to me, But I could never accept it as normal. Being on all those tablets, always at the back of your mind is the kidney going to fail. That is always at the back of your mind every time you have a blood test, are should I say it was when I had the blood tests for my transplanted kidney.
Put another way chill out aMbEr_79 we all have our own views, leave it at that ;)
Kevno
I was actually asking epoman where he got the stats/info from. For your information, we did not learn about transplants in my study, and very very minimal study on dialysis. success could mean a different thing to each person. While I am quite dissapointed and angry that my kidney failed, I have learned to accept it. And I have also learnt to be greatful that it lasted as long as it did. In 7 of those 9.5 years I had a great life. I actually did not think it would fail, as when I had it done, I was only 15, so you dont take much notice of these things. My bloods were perfect the entire time, and even when it started to fail, it took 2 years to actually get any indication after having 3 biopsies. I can get arguementive at times, as this is a subject I feel very strongly about, and I am more than willing to listen to other patients, BUT I really dislike negativity.
I accepted it as a normal life, as it was the only normality I could ever have. The only thing in the back of my mind was "dont forget to take tablets" "shit I hope I pass uni" and so on. I was on no more medications as what I am now, and the best thing was no dialysis! I dont think the nurse is always right, because they arent. Alot of renal patients are very well educated about their condition, and I think thats really important. I knew my kidney was rejecting 2 years before I got a diagnosis, but no one could tell me anything was wrong. I knew what was wrong, because I know my body. I self diagnosed myself last week when I stumbled over to emergency with high potassium. And to my surprise, they didnt stuff arse around and got straight to work on me.
And I have had my chill pills yesterday thanks, but Im off to dialyse them off so look out ;)
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I hope one day they can get rid of prednisone!
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BUT I really dislike negativity.
aMbEr_79 then why did you join a site named I HATE Dialysis? The name sounds negative doesn't it? but why am I even asking you a question, you'll just ignore me, like you did when I asked you:
aMbEr_79, You said: I honestly couldnt be bothered replying You couldn't be bothered? You don't have the respect to reply to the Admin/Owner of the site which you use.
But why should you reply, right? you'll just ignore me like you did this thread: http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=584.0 ::)
AND just like you didn't bother to reply to this thread: http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=411.0 ::)
Both of those threads are forum rules threads, and in BOTH of those threads I asked that the member reply stating they indeed have read the thread.You have posted in several other threads, but I guess you couldn't be bothered, well that needs to change! I hate to be the "Prick" Admin, but you and I need to come to an understanding ASAP, and one thing you need to learn is you don't ignore the administrator of ANY site.
- Epoman
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I stumbled over to emergency with high potassium. And to my surprise, they didnt stuff arse around and got straight to work on me.
And I have had my chill pills yesterday thanks, but Im off to dialyse them off so look out ;)
What? Is that English? ???
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I was referred to this site from my HD unit website. The name is negative, but according to the heading up the top, its not.
I haven't replied to certain threads because I forget to click on notify, its not intentional. It might take me a while to find that thread again. I don't spend all day on here.
I did read both the rule threads and I thought I had replied. I usually leave webpages open to get back to later, but sometimes my other half closes them, so I forget about it. I apologise about that. As you may know, renal failure also causes memory failure :-\ And for your info, I do use spellcheck since reading the rules. I didn't notice it was there until I had read about it.
To be honest I do think you are a bit of a prick on here. I respect that you own this website, but I have at times found you to be a bit overly controlling, as alot of forum owners are. Enough said I think. I would like to get on with interacting with other members and helping them anyway I can. I don't want to spend my time on here arguing with people.
Rerun, what don't you understand about what I said? If you knew any Australian's, thats pretty good English!
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I stumbled over to emergency with high potassium. And to my surprise, they didnt stuff arse around and got straight to work on me.
And I have had my chill pills yesterday thanks, but Im off to dialyse them off so look out ;)
What? Is that English? ???
How is that not english? I'm assuming you're talking about "stuff arse around"...but its probably an australian saying...just like "piss around" or "screw around" or well I'm sure you get the idea...Other than maybe starting a sentance with "And" or maybe a few missing commas, I'd have to say that Amber's post was pretty grammaticaly correct, and in plain english. Let's stop "snapping out on each other"...
-Rerun if you were not (quoting myself here) "snapping out" then maybe next time add a little joking face ( ;D ;) :D :P >:D ) something along those lines...but since you didn't put one of these, I'm assuming that a joke was not your intention here. This site is really great, but when people start attacking others for really silly things (especially cultural differences) you're going to see a major decline in return posters. Myself included.
Sorry if I came off a little hostile with this post/rant, I'm just getting sick of this not so playful banter between members.
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I was referred to this site from my HD unit website. The name is negative, but according to the heading up the top, its not.
I haven't replied to certain threads because I forget to click on notify, its not intentional. It might take me a while to find that thread again. I don't spend all day on here.
I did read both the rule threads and I thought I had replied. I usually leave webpages open to get back to later, but sometimes my other half closes them, so I forget about it. I apologise about that. As you may know, renal failure also causes memory failure :-\ And for your info, I do use spellcheck since reading the rules. I didn't notice it was there until I had read about it.
To be honest I do think you are a bit of a prick on here. I respect that you own this website, but I have at times found you to be a bit overly controlling, as alot of forum owners are. Enough said I think. I would like to get on with interacting with other members and helping them anyway I can. I don't want to spend my time on here arguing with people.
Rerun, what don't you understand about what I said? If you knew any Australian's, thats pretty good English!
You have the audacity to call me a "Prick" on my own website. I have not once resorted to calling you names, you are now crossing the line. And for your information, it takes a "prick" sometimes to keep a site like this up. Since it has been online, I have had to deal with many, many emails from people saying how negative this site is, spammers selling kidneys and registering multiple accounts, and people like you who call the Owner/Admin a "prick", someone who puts MANY hours a day working on this site to make it better for YOU. Just because I am the Admin doesn't mean I'll sit here and be spoken to that way. I expect an apology for the name calling.
- Epoman
P.S. You still have not replied to these two threads, yet you have time to call me a "Prick":
http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=584.0
http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=411.0
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OMG get off my back, Im not discussing this any further. I will reply to threads in my own good time, if and when I come across them. I appologise for calling you that, but your really yanking my chain. Please give it a rest aye.
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OMG get off my back, Im not discussing this any further. I will reply to threads in my own good time, if and when I come across them. I appologise for calling you that, but your really yanking my chain. Please give it a rest aye.
Ok, I'll get off your back and you can get off my site. You need a 1 month vaction (temp ban) from this site. During that time off, go learn some respect. See you in a month.
-Epoman
To all Members: I am not giving aMbEr_79 a vacation because she called "ME" a name, I would give a vacation to any member who treats another member with disrespect. She disrespected me in a couple of ways:
1) She called me a prick.
2) She told me "I will reply to threads in my own good time" I asked all members to reply to the "Spell Check" and "Gender/Location" thread, which she did not, but she had time to call me a prick, but not to do 2 simple things I asked of her. (which she finally did, after the fact.)
I am sorry if anyone thinks the vacation (31 day ban) was extreme but I put to much heart and soul into this site to have someone disrespect me.
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To all members, and especially Epoman, I apologise for any offense and disrespect I have caused with some of my recent posts on this thread. Everything I have said about transplants was and still is my opinion. I am very passionate about this topic and I am sorry for offending everyone by getting carried away. I would however like people to know I actually was offended by some comments, which is why I retaliated. I do now realise I shouldn't of said certain things.
To rerun, I found your "is that english" comment to be rude and unnecessary. If you have a problem with my language skills please PM me. I am a typical Aussie, so at times our vocabulary is hard to understand.
I'm not on here to argue, so I hope we can all get along, and voice all our own opinions. This is so far the most interesting dialysis forum I have come across, I definitely do not disrespect it, or any of the members here.
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To all members, and especially Epoman, I apologise for any offense and disrespect I have caused with some of my recent posts on this thread. Everything I have said about transplants was and still is my opinion. I am very passionate about this topic and I am sorry for offending everyone by getting carried away. I would however like people to know I actually was offended by some comments, which is why I retaliated. I do now realise I shouldn't of said certain things.
To rerun, I found your "is that english" comment to be rude and unnecessary. If you have a problem with my language skills please PM me. I am a typical Aussie, so at times our vocabulary is hard to understand.
I'm not on here to argue, so I hope we can all get along, and voice all our own opinions. This is so far the most interesting dialysis forum I have come across, I definitely do not disrespect it, or any of the members here.
To all members "aMbEr_79" and I am came to an understanding and after discussing the matter with her via email, I decided to lift her 31 day ban. I feel she is a valuable addition to the site and we have worked out our differences. I am LOCKING this thread, to put it to rest. I too apologize to my members I am very passionate about this site and I took certain comments to heart. I am leaving this thread on the board however because it does have some good information and debate, and it will benefit future members/visitors.
THREAD LOCKED
- Epoman
Owner/Admin