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hyperlite
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« on: June 06, 2006, 08:48:27 PM »

I was watching the Daily Show with John Stewart today and he was talking about George Bush's idea to ban gay marriages by amending the constitution. Wow. I still can't believe that in this day and age we can be so narrow-minded. How is allowing Gay's to get married, a problem? Its not going to stop them from being gay. Its not going to affect our marriages. So how is it a problem? I see no difference between saying that gays shouldn't be married, and saying that Blacks should not get married. Or even low-income couples should not be married. The second and third statements sound ridiculous, but why don't politicians find the first one as such? It really infuriates me that we live in a country that defines itself as being free, and allowing every citizen equal rights, yet this same country is trying to set up walls to divide the rights of it's citizens. If only we look back in history to learn from our mistakes, we would see that separating the rights of citizens will have very serious negative results. At one time women were not allowed to vote, in fact they weren't even defined as people, and anyone who thought otherwise was a "liberal idiot". We have overcome these, for a lack of a better word, crimes against humanity, hopefully we can overcome this one as well.
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« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2006, 09:36:34 PM »

I was watching the Daily Show with John Stewart today and he was talking about George Bush's idea to ban gay marriages by amending the constitution. Wow. I still can't believe that in this day and age we can be so narrow-minded. How is allowing Gay's to get married, a problem? Its not going to stop them from being gay. Its not going to affect our marriages. So how is it a problem? I see no difference between saying that gays shouldn't be married, and saying that Blacks should not get married. Or even low-income couples should not be married. The second and third statements sound ridiculous, but why don't politicians find the first one as such? It really infuriates me that we live in a country that defines itself as being free, and allowing every citizen equal rights, yet this same country is trying to set up walls to divide the rights of it's citizens. If only we look back in history to learn from our mistakes, we would see that separating the rights of citizens will have very serious negative results. At one time women were not allowed to vote, in fact they weren't even defined as people, and anyone who thought otherwise was a "liberal idiot". We have overcome these, for a lack of a better word, crimes against humanity, hopefully we can overcome this one as well.

I thought you lived in Canada, if not fix your profile  >:(




 ;D
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« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2006, 12:28:17 AM »

Its a delicate issue but here's my take.........

Why is polygamy outlawed? There has to be a reason for that.......the same question arises with gay marriages.....why is it beeing banned? What kinda of implications does Polygamy and gay marriages have on our society?

However, if I look at the books of history and religion it states that marriage is the union of a man and woman. Though regardless whether the laws are there people are doing whatever they wish.

What do you think? Should gay marriages be a norm? Why? If you oppose gay marriages why are you against it? How do you define marriage? What is marriage to you?
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hyperlite
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« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2006, 05:47:34 AM »

Polygamy is a completely different issue. Homosexuality is not a choice. Saying that I want to have 10 wives is. Gus you asked what kind of implications does polygamy and gay marriages have on our society. Well polygamy can have a very negative impact. Many times the wives of polygamists are neglected and abused. There are also situations, such as the current one involving an extremist who is on the run from authorities (I can't remember his name...), where young girls have been "given" to men as presents. However gay marriages have no implications on our society, except maybe positive ones. Such as we live in society that accepts the rights of all citizens. And yes if you look in the Bible it might say marriage is the union between a man and a woman ( I doubt it actually says it that directly), but there are a million other things in the Bible. Many of which we do not right into the constitution, and quite rightly, seeing as how there are millions of citizens that live in the USA that are not christian. So why should they have to follow christian rules? It says in the Bible that people should wait until marriage to have sex. Why not put that in the constitution? We need to separate the Church from the State, because in today's society, one church does not govern an entire nation....

Heres how I would define marriage: The union of two adults.
Marriage to me is the creation of a family by bringing two people who are in love, together.

And Epoman, yes I'm from Canada, I'm just talking from a "North American" point of view...
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Len
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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2006, 06:02:17 AM »

Good posts Hyper...
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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2006, 06:12:40 AM »

I'm not threatened by gay marriage or gay people in general. As long as they keep it to themselves, I would rather see two people that love eachother regardless of their sex, than to see people full of hate for oneanother. As for the religious aspect Christ died for our sins and loves us all.

I think we need to leave religion out of it though because we all sin, and we all have our own views (beliefs) on religion.
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hyperlite
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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2006, 09:07:06 AM »

I'm not threatened by gay marriage or gay people in general. As long as they keep it to themselves, I would rather see two people that love eachother regardless of their sex, than to see people full of hate for oneanother. As for the religious aspect Christ died for our sins and loves us all.

I think we need to leave religion out of it though because we all sin, and we all have our own views (beliefs) on religion.

What do you mean by "keep it to themselves"? Yes I agree that they should not be "jumping around waving it in the faces" of people who do not agree with it, however I dont think thats the case here. I think that these people want to get married to 1) allow them to have the same commitments that straight married couples have and 2) have the same rights that married couples have (ie tax benefits, health care coverage...etc).
 I also think it should be up to the individual churches to allow the marriage (if the couple wants to go through the church) or not. But by writing it into the constitution that gay marriage is illegal, then this doesnt give people the right to choose, and takes away their rights.

But yeah I completely agree with you that we need to separate this issue from religion, because there are two many religions out there and we can't please them all. Plus what about people who are not religious?
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Sara
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« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2006, 03:23:07 PM »

I don't have a problem with legalizing their union, so they get equal protection as far as inheritance and right to make medical decisions, etc.  I think the major hang up is wording it as a "marriage."  I don't see why they don't just call it a civil union or whatever and be done with it.  Seems like they (the gay community) would get more accomplished by starting with that.

As far as homosexuality not being a choice, well, that's up for debate.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 03:24:56 PM by Sara » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2006, 07:55:37 PM »

I have a very good male friend who use to be gay.  Through the power of our Lord Jesus Christ he has been released from that sin.  It is wonderful to hear his testimony.  Many boys who do not bond with their father are always searching for same sex acceptance.  Same with a little girl.  If she doesn't bond with her mother or is pushed away by other women then she is always seeking same sex acceptance.  Kids that are molested also have issues that turn them towards "same sex" attraction.  Homosexuality is a choice.  God created us and there is NO proof that genetically you are born that way.  Just like ther is no proof of "global warming."

1 Corenthins 7 talks about "Marriage" and the way it ought to be.  But first God said it is better to stay single! (Amen to that)  ;D
Marriage is rough and you are held accountable. 

Yes, you are right, Any sexual immorality is a sin.  Homosexuality is no worse than Adultery, which is no worse than sex before marriage.

Marriage is a covenant under God.  God does NOT approve of Homosexuality why would we legalize it.  Next men will be wanting to marry sheep.  Up in Washington State they got caught screwing horses! 

« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 07:57:28 PM by Rerun » Logged

hyperlite
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« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2006, 08:26:28 PM »

I have a very good male friend who use to be gay.  Through the power of our Lord Jesus Christ he has been released from that sin.  It is wonderful to hear his testimony.  Many boys who do not bond with their father are always searching for same sex acceptance.  Same with a little girl.  If she doesn't bond with her mother or is pushed away by other women then she is always seeking same sex acceptance.  Kids that are molested also have issues that turn them towards "same sex" attraction.  Homosexuality is a choice.  God created us and there is NO proof that genetically you are born that way.  Just like ther is no proof of "global warming."

1 Corenthins 7 talks about "Marriage" and the way it ought to be.  But first God said it is better to stay single! (Amen to that)  ;D
Marriage is rough and you are held accountable. 

Yes, you are right, Any sexual immorality is a sin.  Homosexuality is no worse than Adultery, which is no worse than sex before marriage.

Marriage is a covenant under God.  God does NOT approve of Homosexuality why would we legalize it.  Next men will be wanting to marry sheep.  Up in Washington State they got caught screwing horses! 



Wow, I am blown away by this post. Absolutely blown away.

What struck me first after reading that, was your statement about there not being any proof for homosexuality being "genetic", but then you go on to say that God created us. Where's the proof of that? I hate to be the one to tell you this, but not everything in the Bible is factual. A woman was not made from a man's rib. And there IS proof of that.

To say that "next men will want to marry sheep" is completely ridiculous. We're talking about human rights here...and the freedom to choose.

Your statement about kids that are molested, end up being gay, well there are millions of gay people out there and i would bet a lot of money that the vast majority of them were not molested as children. And how do you know if God approves of homosexuality or not? Does he talk to you? has he told you this?

You can't use ONE religion to govern a country! Especially Christianity, seeing as how there are a hundred different forms of it. The protestant church does not prohibit safe-sex, yet the catholic church does.

And as for homosexuality not being a choice, its the same as how some men like women with big breasts, some dont. Some women like muscular men, some dont. The human brain is so complex and there is so much about it that we do not understand, that to say that "because there is no direct proof" of something (and I'm not an expert here...maybe they have found a "gay gene" or a "gay centre" in the brain), is ridiculous. At one point in time there was no proof that the world was round, but now we all know the truth.

The way you talk about homosexuals, you would think they all come from broken homes. This is not the case. The majority of homosexuals come from normal families like you and I.

You say "God does not approve of homosexuality, why would we legalize it". Wow. I'm sure "your God" does not approve of smoking, or drinking in excess, or masturbation, or believing in other gods, why dont we make these things illegal as well?

How does two gay people getting married affect you? It has no affect on me. I can still marry a woman.
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« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2006, 08:43:23 PM »

Ya know Hyper, all I can say is I hope I'm right about God and I hope You're right about God.  I hope we both get what we believe.

To say that "next men will want to marry sheep" is completely ridiculous. We're talking about human rights here...and the freedom to choose.

Leviticus 20:13-15 - If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable.  They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked.  Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.

If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and your must kill the animal.

All I'm saying here is "it happens."  We as a society need to draw the line and Same Sex Marriage is just one step away from sex with animals.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 09:34:13 PM by Rerun » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2006, 11:02:57 PM »

Grabs lawn chair and popcorn, getting ready to watch the fireworks.
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« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2006, 11:05:32 PM »

*Joining Epoman with my own lawn chair and popcorn*
Turns to Epoman: "This should be very interesting!"

Katherine
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« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2006, 11:07:02 PM »

*Joining Epoman with my own lwan chair and popcorn*
Turns to Epoman: "This should be very interesting!"

Katherine

Indeed.  ;D
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« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2006, 05:54:14 AM »

First of all, to your statement about God (just to clarify), I do believe in God...I just don't believe in religion.

And 2nd of all, just because it says it in the Bible (a book written by a man) does not make it true! You're treating the Bible as if it is a law, and as if as though you dont follow it's direct orders God will strike you down. The Sixth commandment says "Thou shalt not kill", so according to your beliefs that "what the Bible says goes", how can we "put gays to death" if we shouldnt kill people?

You say we need to draw the line, well the line should be drawn AT gays getting married...not before it. There is a reason that "a man can't marry his mother" because of the possibility of having inbred children (one of the leading causes of hereditary diseases). It would be impossible to say "you can marry your mother but no sex". This makes sense!

If a man married an animal, the animal's rights have been violated. The animal had no choice in the matter.

We're talking about PEOPLE here...the fact that you are comparing two human beings to animals, sickens me.

Exodus 20 vs 3.

Enjoins that God must be known and acknowledged to be the only true God, and our God; and, to worship him and to make him known as he has been made known to us
Forbids not worshiping and glorifying the true God as God, and as our God; and forbids giving worship and glory to any other, which is due to him alone

so because it says in the Bible that we must worship the Christian God, should we therefore make it illegal to worship any other God??

The only reason people like you want to make gay marriages illegal, is because youre afraid that if they get married, then maybe God accepts them the way they are, and maybe you should to.

I wish people would open their eyes, think for themselves, and maybe be "released from the horrible sin" of bigotry.

Next thing I know, you'll try to tell me that the Apocalypse is coming and Jesus is coming back to Earth to save us all.
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« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2006, 09:33:40 AM »

Hyperlite, might I remind you, you are the one that brought this subject up so you have to be prepared for the responses.  Not everyone is going to agree with you on this as you will see from my response!

When I saw the name of this thread, I thought, oh no, someone is fixing to open Pandora's box, and sure enough here we are.  I deliberately didn't respond, and had hoped no one else would either because this is a sticky subject matter at best, but since this debate has taken on a new direction I guess it is only right that I now weigh in.

Homosexuality is WRONG!  Plain and simple!  You can say anything you like about me being threatened by them, or being closed mind, or whatever else you would like to spew, but the fact still remains, and will always remain, that homosexuality is sick, and the ones that are engaged in this form of activity are sick individuals and need counseling.  Two grown men doing each other in the rectum.  That is just plain SICK!  I am not in favor of helping destroy what moral fiber we have left in this country by allowing queers to get married to each other.  What they need to do is go and get counseling and find out what drove them to another man and figure out a way to quit that gross behavior and rejoin the heterosexuals.

I am sure I have totally offended you with my response and I am truly sorry. But, as you, I have an opinion on this matter and, although we have  two different opinions, it doesn't mean they are any less important to us.  You see it one way, and I see it the other.  No disrespect intended towards you; this is just the way I feel, as you feel the other way.
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hyperlite
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« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2006, 09:42:23 AM »

hahaha just to be clear, I respect everyone's opinion...thats why I started the thread in the first place. I was obviously looking for a debate, and have thoroughly enjoyed this one!  ;D
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hyperlite
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« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2006, 09:55:03 AM »

Homosexuality is WRONG!  Plain and simple!  You can say anything you like about me being threatened by them, or being closed mind, or whatever else you would like to spew, but the fact still remains, and will always remain, that homosexuality is sick, and the ones that are engaged in this form of activity are sick individuals and need counseling.  Two grown men doing each other in the rectum.  That is just plain SICK!  I am not in favor of helping destroy what moral fiber we have left in this country by allowing queers to get married to each other.  What they need to do is go and get counseling and find out what drove them to another man and figure out a way to quit that gross behavior and rejoin the heterosexuals.

You haven't offended me at all with this post, as I'm not gay. I agree with you, two men having anal sex sickens me, however it does not affect me whatsoever. I'm also sickened by an obese woman having sex with an old man covered in hair, but I don't think that it should be illegal! What two people do in their own bedroom is their own business, as long as it does not violate another person's human rights.

Just because two men decide to get married, does not throw their morals out the door. They aren't murderers or rapists. They don't steal. They don't harm others in any way whatsoever. Let them get married and mind your own business. "Turn the other cheek". For all I know, my neighboors could be into dressing up in leather and chaining each other to the bed. But from what I've seen of them, they are hard working honest people. People look down upon gays because they know what they are doing in the bedroom because of the superficiality of their relationship. You know what two who are in love are going to do. Its gross yeah I'll agree with you there, but it's their right. Just like a man would have the right to have sex with a one-eyed, bald, no-toothed obese woman.

haha this has been a pretty graphic post, and I'm considering not posting it...nah I'll post it.

But yeah my point:     What people do in their own bedrooms is their own business. If they are hard working citizens who do not harm others, whats the big deal. If you are afraid that your children will grow up to be gay, then tell them: "being gay is wrong. you will go to Hell if you're gay". You have the right to tell your children whatever you want. But don't try to stop another person from living their own lives if they do not harm you whatsoever. There are more pressing issues that are affecting our society's moral fibre, such as the increase in gun violence, unemployment and crime in general.
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« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2006, 10:48:28 AM »

hyperlite wrote:
Quote
You haven't offended me at all with this post, as I'm not gay. I agree with you, two men having anal sex sickens me, however it does not affect me whatsoever. I'm also sickened by an obese woman having sex with an old man covered in hair, but I don't think that it should be illegal!

I have to admit, I was prepared for the fourth of July because I know how a subject like this has the potential of becoming very personal and explosive in nature.

I respect you, and I can see you point of view clearly.  I guess besides from the mental image that I have, which as you stated is none of my affairs, I can concede that what two grown adults do in the privacy of their own home is their busy only.

However that does not mean that I have to endorse their said behavior.  I also don't condone murder, rape, or bigamy, and I certainly wouldn't endorse any of them either.

As I stated, I respect your position and therefore I will leave it at previously stated.

Quote
There are more pressing issues that are affecting our society's moral fibre, such as the increase in gun violence, unemployment and crime in general.

This, we agree on. :)

Have a good one!
Richard
« Last Edit: June 08, 2006, 10:52:55 AM by RichnStacy » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2006, 11:35:43 AM »

Exodus 20 vs 3.

Enjoins that God must be known and acknowledged to be the only true God, and our God; and, to worship him and to make him known as he has been made known to us
Forbids not worshiping and glorifying the true God as God, and as our God; and forbids giving worship and glory to any other, which is due to him alone

so because it says in the Bible that we must worship the Christian God, should we therefore make it illegal to worship any other God??

My bible says:  Exodus 20:3  "You shall have no other gods before me" Plain and simple.  You can worship any "god" you want to, but when your heart has its last beat, you will know the truth.  Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess.  AND there will be a test!    Joking on that one, at least I hope.

Guys doing it to each other and guys doing it to a sheep?  They both sicken me, and guess what "both are happening."  You can see through history what has happened by having tolerance.  Our Moral Absolutes are gone.  Is says thou shalt not kill yet a day before a baby is born, it is legal to kill it.  What's the hell with that?  I believe life begins at conception, but abortion is legal. 

Like EPOMAN, God set down some basic rules to keep some order.  If you don't abide by them you are gone.   

« Last Edit: June 08, 2006, 11:39:43 AM by Rerun » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2006, 12:40:25 PM »

 >:D This is so wrong but I have to do it.  ;D
« Last Edit: June 08, 2006, 12:42:54 PM by Epoman » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2006, 02:15:19 PM »

hahaha Epoman, pretty offensive to some, but the message is so true!

And Rerun, the difference in our Bibles is probably due to the fact that mine is a Protestant Bible, which I would wager yours is not.  ;D

And it wasnt  God that set down rules...it was a bunch of men who "could hear God talking to them" who set down the rules...  ;D

But yeah we've had a good debate, I think both sides argued their point very well, and just for anyone who might have thought this whole debate got a little heated, it was all in good fun, and we're all still friends here!  ;D Because as the Chinese guy who got the boot from this site said: "we've all been punished by God by having our kidneys fail"! so I guess we're all in God's bad books whether we agree with gays getting married or not! hahaha  ;D ;D
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« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2006, 02:20:20 PM »

Most people are very tolerant and accepting of children born with genetic physical and/or mental anomalies.  But if the genes for some reason involve or relate in anyway to the child's sexuality it suddenly becomes a big deal for some people.  Can you imagine what it's like for a child to be born w/sexual organs of both sexes?  (Sometimes they don't know it until months or even years later.)  Can you imagine the life of a baby born which appears to be male, but is actually female?  Or vice versa?  Life is usually difficult for them, and for their entire extended family.  All of the children born w/ those defects grow up and become adults w/ gender identity in doubt to much of the rest of the world, sometimes to their physicians and sometimes even to themselves -- but many of them know from a very early age who they are, and sometimes it is different from their physical appearance.  We have no way of knowing why homosexuals are the way they are, but we certainly should not judge those unfortunate enough to be born with those problems.  They deserve the same rights, respect, sympathy, and empathy we have for those born with any other birth defect.

All that being said, I don't worry much about those who choose to lead a promiscuous, deviant, immoral lifestyle as long as they are with other consenting adults, regardless of their sexual orientation.  If they take advantage of, seduce, use or abuse any other adults or children, then I do have a HUGE problem with them --whether they are heterosexual or homosexual is irrelevant to me.

My personal opinion is that "marriage" is a religious event/commitment between a man and a woman; civil unions should be legal for anyone who wants to enter into one.  In fact, if my sister and I were to out live our disabled husbands, which is likely, it would be great if we could have a civil union as a short cut to handling all of our legal needs -- as sisters we'd have to have all kinds of legal documents to give each other the rights which we could share in a civil union after a 2 minute civil ceremony.

BTW, interesting posts -- and thank to Epoman for giving us the opportunity to something so waaaaay of topic ;D.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2006, 02:30:29 PM by Epoman » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2006, 02:27:57 PM »

Great post Black! I never thought about hermaphrodites, and how a very religious person would view them. Because many times these people will have stages in their lives where they live as a man or a woman...and at those times they will be with partners of the "opposite" sex...very interesting point!
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« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2006, 02:31:02 PM »

Most people are very tolerant and accepting of children born with genetic physical and/or mental anomalies.  But if the genes for some reason involve or relate in anyway to the child's sexuality it suddenly becomes a big deal for some people.  Can you imagine what it's like for a child to be born w/sexual organs of both sexes?  (Sometimes they don't know it until months or even years later.)  Can you imagine the life of a baby born which appears to be male, but is actually female?  Or vice versa?  Life is usually difficult for them, and for their entire extended family.  All of the children born w/ those defects grow up and become adults w/ gender identity in doubt to much of the rest of the world, sometimes to their physicians and sometimes even to themselves -- but many of them know from a very early age who they are, and sometimes it is different from their physical appearance.  We have no way of knowing why homosexuals are the way they are, but we certainly should not judge those unfortunate enough to be born with those problems.  They deserve the same rights, respect, sympathy, and empathy we have for those born with any other birth defect.

All that being said, I don't worry much about those who choose to lead a promiscuous, deviant, immoral lifestyle as long as they are with other consenting adults, regardless of their sexual orientation.  If they take advantage of, seduce, use or abuse any other adults or children, then I do have a HUGE problem with them --whether they are heterosexual or homosexual is irrelevant to me.

My personal opinion is that "marriage" is a religious event/commitment between a man and a woman; civil unions should be legal for anyone who wants to enter into one.  In fact, if my sister and I were to out live our disabled husbands, which is likely, it would be great if we could have a civil union as a short cut to handling all of our legal needs -- as sisters we'd have to have all kinds of legal documents to give each other the rights which we could share in a civil union after a 2 minute civil ceremony.

BTW, interesting posts -- and thank to Epoman for giving us the opportunity to something so waaaaay of topic ;D.

My pleasure.  ;)
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- Epoman
Owner/Administrator
13+ Years In-Center Hemo-Dialysis. (NO Transplant)
Current NxStage & PureFlow User.

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