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Rerun
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« on: October 18, 2018, 05:36:01 AM »

Why is this guy so important?  No one got this upset over our Benghazi murders and Christoper Stevens was an American Diplomat.

This guy, bless his soul, is a Saudi Citizen.  This happened over in Turkey. I get it is horrible.  That is what happens when we don't hear about all the murders they do everyday.  We are shocked!!  If the media reported all the murders in those countries we would be desensitized by now.  Sad but true.

I just don't see how this is Trump's fault.  I know we have an expensive arms deal.  Do we put a stop to that because the Saudi's kill one of their citizens?  In their world this is nothing. 

I'm glad it is not our world.   
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Cowdog
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« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2018, 06:38:42 AM »

If you are the subject of a kingdom or a dictator and you write and publish things that pizz the king or dictator off there is a very good chance something will happen to you.
 Happens every day. It's none of the USA's business.
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UkrainianTracksuit
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« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2018, 06:46:29 AM »

Dare I enter the den of fire and fury?

You are correct that the death of Jamal Khashoggi is one of many (MANY!) to occur in the Kingdom. It was a brutal death according to whatís been released.

It is the context of his death that has American media very tuned in.

America is supposed to represent a series of values to the world. This does not change according to shifts in presidential administrations but rather, what America represents to the world.

That is usually rule of law, freedom and democracy. That is what administrations package and sell typically in foreign policy and the NSS.

But in this era of America First and ďwe are not the world policeĒ, this mindset has got to change. (Iím not saying I want the US in this role either, just to be clear.)

So, when an American president doesnít stand up for these values, the US media gets into an uproar. Especially when the journalist is an American resident and a contributor at the Washington Post.

Doesnít mainstream media in the USA highly respect the WashPo? Anyway, Khashoggi had numerous American contacts and colleagues. He studied in the US too.

Further, the US media constantly presents the current American president as friendly to dictators but always shunning traditional Western allies. This is yet another example in that portfolio. Trump would rather defend and side with the Saudi Crown Prince than treat Western allies with respect at summits.

They present Trump as naive in accepting the Saudiís denial just as the media went cuckoo over Putinís denial in Helsinki. Heís supposed to trust the intelligence agencies first over crooked leaders with agendas, remember? US intelligence said it had intercepts in regard to this case but that doesnít enter current decision making.

Itís bad optics that the media can build into a bigger picture. For example, Pompeo smiling with MBS in his ďfact finding tripĒ didnít look good.

And then thereís the money trail. Trump says he canít pull out of an arms deal in regard to American jobs. He is not alone there. The Canadian PM Trudeau has not canceled a military contract even though Canada and Saudi Arabia are currently in another human rights diplomatic flap.

But, itís the personal money that the media likes to focus on. The connections between Trump, Kushner and the Saudis. Trump states openly they spend a lot of money at his investments while MBS brags he has Jared in his pocket.

Thatís what happens though when you leave important diplomatic portfolios to those with little diplomatic experience. This canít be a cut or dry case because the Saudis have leverage.

If this was a Bolivian journalist, who resided in the US, and worked for an American paper, the story would be different due to their lack of leverage.

All of this builds into the narrative that Trump has bungled his foreign policy and that heís crooked. This extends to the accusation that he has no moral compass. Thus, heís a disaster president . . . which you hear everywhere!

Trump is not the only one to be considered weak in diplomatic crisis, though. While he has not made strong statements against the Kingdom (he threatened sanctions, once, and the Saudis threatened back, saying theyíll up the price of oil), Obama took flack for not enforcing his red line in Syria, since Iran wouldnít have gone along with the nuclear deal, apparently. Well, that wasnít a win-win, obviously now!

In a big picture, Western nations have turned a blind eye to Saudi infractions for a long time because of business and security. Now, that this latest operation went to pot, thereís additional public scrutiny. Itís a sensational story and everyone loves a good mystery, as morbid as that sounds. It just so happens that the current US president is portrayed as cozying up to authoritarians at a time, in a situation, where the US is to be voice of reason.

It is not as if other Western national governments covering the story have done much better but they donít have the ďTrumpian opticsĒ like the US. Hence, further scrutiny. Politicians are crooked in general....

Another element is that Trump routinely calls journalists ďthe enemy of the people.Ē Yeah, heís using his typical showman flare but there are parts of the world where those words are true! And if the state that is the bastion of good values (that all other states should model itself after) regards free press in this way, other less palatable states will agree. In my home country, you can be jailed for sharing a meme critical of the government! Imagine that!

So, ReRun, youíre right. One can ask why is everyone so focused on this one death. Itís not just the gruesome death of Khashoggi but rather, its context and framing of a much larger zeitgeist.

(As a foreign person, I neither support or dislike Trump. I did vote for Putin though so I am inherently evil.)
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Rerun
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« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2018, 08:12:54 AM »

Yes!  UT We appreciate your input.  You are quite knowledgeable being from another country.  Just saying that because I really don't know what politics go on in Russia.

Yet, Seth Rich, from the DNC was shot dead in the streets of Washington DC and police labeled it a robbery.  Yet, nothing was missing.  He had his cell phone, his wallet, his jewelry.  They won't investigate.  Theory has it, Seth is the one that leaked the DNC emails to Wikileaks.  They had him killed by 2 thugs and then the thugs were killed too.  AND this is in America!  Under Obama's watch.  Nothing happened.  Obama told Putin's minion "Tell Putin that I'll be more flexible after the election"....  Talk about sucking up.   

I think Trump needs to stay out of this.  Iran has human rights issues too.  Obama did the deal anyway. 

Heck, we have human rights issues too.  I saw today that in the movie Sleeping Beauty... Prince Charming doesn't ASK her permission before he kisses her.  Crisis! 

 :urcrazy;   He better never run for Supreme Court! 
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iolaire
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« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2018, 08:29:35 AM »

A big reason its serious to Americans is Trump is vocal about how he hates the press and probably would like to do the same to the press in the US.  If he (and his supporters) are ok with the Saudi's killing journalist in their consulate in Turkey do we have to worry that the US will start doing the same? 

Not to mention that the press generally is supportive of people in their own field of work who are miss treated.

PS did you notice how that pastor was suddenly released by Turkey as soon as they wanted Trump's support on the Saudi killing?

PS #2, this story was just posted "How One Journalistís Death Provoked a Backlash That Thousands Dead in Yemen Did Not" on the topic, there was another good story in the Atlantic I'll try to find.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/17/world/middleeast/jamal-khashoggi-saudi-arabia.html

PS #3 I think this is the Atlantic story:
A Fatal Abandonment of American Leadership
The disappearance of Jamal Khashoggi drives home the consequences of the Trump administrationís refusal to champion democratic values around the globe.
Ben Rhodes
Former deputy national-security adviser to Barack Obama
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/jamal-khashoggi-and-us-saudi-relationship/572905/
« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 08:34:04 AM by iolaire » Logged

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Michael Murphy
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« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2018, 09:45:09 AM »

Well said Iolaire.
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Rerun
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« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2018, 11:54:06 AM »

The Pastor was an American Citizen.  5 people were shot in June at the Maryland's Capital Gazette (AKA Media).  That guy wasn't hung on the spot.  I think he should have been, but he will probably get off because he was bullied as a child.   :P

No, this is a last ditch effort to make Trump look bad right before the mid-terms. 

This is none of our beeswax.  If he was an American Citizen, then yes, get involved. Although, when Otto came home from N. Korea all we did was cry.  But, do we start WWIII over one life?

We murder thousands of unborn babies everyday.

Hey, I almost said "babies"  That would be like you saying 3,000 immigrants are coming instead of "Illegal" Immigrants.....   Unborn babies vs babies.  thinking out loud.....

 :pray;
« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 11:57:36 AM by Rerun » Logged

iolaire
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« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2018, 12:00:48 PM »

No, this is a last ditch effort to make Trump look bad right before the mid-terms. 
The only way Trump looks bad (or good) is by his own actions or inactions.
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« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2018, 12:08:01 PM »

One thing I find interesting in this whole thing is how Turkey is going after Saudi for this murder on their soil, yet last year Turkish staff were involved in an attack on demonstrators here in Washington DC:
https://www.newsweek.com/turkish-president-erdogans-bodyguards-attack-protesters-after-trump-meeting-dc-610662

Now Turkey has experienced a very brutal attack on their soil - much more brutal than the one Turkey perpetrated on American soil.

Also I'm surprised that Turkey has had access to the Saudi consulate and the consulate's home for the investigation.  From what I know foreign embassies and consulates are considered part of that owners own country.  For example the US would not have access to the Croatian embassy or consulate here in DC.  And Israel would not have access to the US Embassy in Israel.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 12:10:07 PM by iolaire » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2018, 12:34:12 PM »

It is like the pot calling the kettle silver.  They are both killers. (Turkey and Saudi) but now they must be starting to get a conscience. They feel the need to hide and make excuses. Turkey is supposed to have gruesome audio of this guy getting killed.  How would Turkey have audio in an Saudi Consulate.  Did they wire the place and now the whole world knows? 

Lots of questions.  But, I have lots of questions about Seth Rich too.   :secret;
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« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2018, 12:37:28 PM »

You are quite knowledgeable being from another country.  Just saying that because I really don't know what politics go on in Russia.
Iím in Canada now so I get a lot of US news. My husband is a former military guy in Russia and he works in international business/security stuff so there are always these discussions at home.

The Saudis obviously gave permission to the Turks to enter the embassy. Article 22 of the Convention on Diplomatic Relations, which both countries are signatories, states only permission lets the host nation enter. As well, searches cannot be conducted on the premises, so, itís rather obvious.

This permission and entrance was only granted days after the journalist went missing.. with cleaning crews in and out... Make your own conclusion. 

Iím just too jaded to think a change of party or political figurehead would change any relations with the Saudis. Weíve known what theyíve done for a long time but turn a blind eye.

This is the case where a national leader will be sharp in their words and promoted policy but, at the diplomatic level, itís how can we compromise?

Saudis have too much leverage and use to put them into the cold.

It is obviously a different situation but I think back when Turkey shot a Russian jet for being 2 km over their airspace. One pilot died, from being shot at on the ground. We made a big stink: sanctions, cancelation of military deal, gas pipeline threats, regulations on trade and travel.

But now, itís all good, because they are beneficial economically and strategically.

So, I expect this Saudi case to be a diplomatic nightmare and headache for Trump but, it will pass.

I hope Iím wrong.

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« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2018, 01:14:14 PM »

Why is this guy so important?

It is not so much him as the fact that he was (allegedly) killed in an embassy in a foreign country at the orders of the Crown Prince for writing news reports in an American newspaper.

I just don't see how this is Trump's fault.

It isn't. The criticism of Trump is over his attitude after the event. Sort of "Don't care, they are always doing this sort of thing." Considering that he was killed for reporting in an American newspaper (NY Times) the least Trump could do is be apoplectic about it, even if he actually does nothing useful. His attitude basically gives the impression that Trump thinks it is OK to kill reporters who piss you off.
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« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2018, 02:06:38 PM »

Why is this guy so important?
I personally think that you asked this question in bad faith and are not interesting in the answers. It seems you wanted use the question to make a few statements on the subject and many other subjects.
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« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2018, 02:27:41 PM »

He was murdered for the work he did for a American newspaper.  He lived in the US and was there to obtain paper work to Marry his Turkish girl friend.  The Saudis flew into Turkey with a bone saw.  Clearly equipped t deal with a body the weíre planning on dealing with after they killed the journalist.   It appears that t Presidunce closest allies deal with the opposition the same way Putin sent a hit squad to England with nerve agent to kill a opposition man and daughter, the Crown Prince sent a torture squad to kill and dismember his opposition.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 11:15:25 AM by Michael Murphy » Logged
MooseMom
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« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2018, 02:49:56 PM »

Ukrainian Tracksuit pretty much sums it up.  This is more about how we define American values and whether or not they are for sale.  It looks like they are.

Remember that the murderers of 9/11 were Saudis.  The United States literally lets Saudi Arabia get away with murder.
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« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2018, 02:45:05 AM »

What I don't understand is how Christians like Pat Robertson gives the Saudis a pass just because the y buy weapons from us which they then use to kill people in Yemen,.  Not exactly a pro life, pro American Values position.

If you want to ask what business it is of ours whether or not the Saudis killed this journalist, you should also ask what business it is of ours having our military men and women in Yemen backing the Saudis in what is essentially a Muslim regional war.

It is always about money.  Ultimately, the "dead Said i guy's" death is about money.
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« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2018, 02:58:32 AM »

What is also very disturbing is the fact that MBS flatly denied any knowledge of this murder, and this is just the latest in a string of erratic behaviour.  He clearly had lied.  Someone with that amount of power knows everything.  But we are helping him in the cover up.  Why?  Oh yeah.  Money.  That's the new American Value.
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« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2018, 03:35:19 AM »

And why is Jared Kushner the head of our Middle East foreign policy?

And why is there suddenly a bunch of opinion pieces in the media disparaging this journalist?  Seems to be a coordinated effort with in the G O P to blame the victim. 
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« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2018, 04:45:51 AM »

Stranger still is one of the 15 killer saudis has been killed is car crash in Riyad.
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kristina
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« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2018, 10:07:00 AM »

Why is this guy so important? 
The Royal Saudis seem to try very hard to appear democratic and humanitarian, but at the same time they still seem to be overly sensitive about anyone who dares to criticize them and he criticized them a lot and then all of a sudden he was heard no more...
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Rerun
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« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2018, 11:05:16 AM »

Why is this guy so important?
I personally think that you asked this question in bad faith and are not interesting in the answers. It seems you wanted use the question to make a few statements on the subject and many other subjects.

Yes!  I want to create dialogue.  Is that okay with YOU??  Don't comment if you don't want to. 
That would be welcome also!!! 
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iolaire
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« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2018, 11:47:27 AM »

Why is this guy so important?
I personally think that you asked this question in bad faith and are not interesting in the answers. It seems you wanted use the question to make a few statements on the subject and many other subjects.

Yes!  I want to create dialogue.  Is that okay with YOU??  Don't comment if you don't want to. 
That would be welcome also!!!

I get offended when I try to provide a real response and then the response to me is but what about XXXX, ZZZZ etc... that has nothing to do with the topic.  Usually the response rarely addresses any of the issues that I take time to try to explain to you as important to me and many others.  The constant changing of the subject makes me feel like you don't care what people say in response to your questions, and really that you perhaps don't even want to read them - but rather to use them to talk about some other un related topic.  I makes me feel like I've been tricked into allowing you to rant on other topics.
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« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2018, 12:42:00 PM »

Iolaire,  the rest of us care about your responses because they are always well thought out.

By now we know there is access, and then there is "access" when it comes to consulates!

Btw, I happened to walk past the Equadorean embassy in London  a few weeks ago and was hoping to see Mr. Assange.  Apparently he has been ordered to make sure to clean up after his cat or risk being thrown out.  Let's hope there are no kitty hit squads out there!
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« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2018, 02:21:27 PM »

I would characterize your responses that they are on point, well written, and thought provoking. Many time in the past I have read your posts and marveled at your ability to cut right to the heart of the matter.  You should know I at least look forward to reading your posts. 
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Rerun
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« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2018, 02:33:58 PM »

I do have questions and want to hear your well thought out responses.  Going after me because I ask a question, and that brings up other of my questions and accusing me hijacking the thread is ridiculous. 

My feelings are hurt now.  This page should make people feel free to say what is on their mind.  No wonder no one wants to come here. 

Oh, and so I keep on topic.  The Saudi guy is dead.  And so is free speech! 



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