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Author Topic: Dealing with pain?  (Read 1869 times)
kristina
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« on: July 16, 2018, 06:17:52 AM »

Hello,
Chronic diseases involve - sooner or later - the necessity to take pain killers as and when in pain, but since we are in ESRF, chemical pain-killers would certainly damage our kidney function further and, furthermore, we could not even be sure, how chemical pain-killers would or could affect our intellectual capacities etc.
... I remember reading - many years ago - an article about how "in the old days" during the second world disaster, government-agents were trained how to deal with severe pain which could be inflicted either by enemy-agents or whilst getting injured during "a mission", when they were being forced to deal with severe pain until they were back in their own country again etc.
... I have tried to research and have also tried to ask doctors and specialists about any mental training to deal with pain. instead of chemical pain-killers, but so far I have not been lucky enough to get any answers. The question is now : does such a mental training to deal with pain really and truly exist or is it "only" government agent-folklore?
Many thanks from Kristina. :grouphug;
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iolaire
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« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2018, 06:56:50 AM »

Look into German pain management, if someone was researching mental preparation to pain management it would be them (I think).

I've read on Facebook how people go in for major surgery or birthing and they are told in advance that they will be sent home with Tylenol to manage the pain.  I think they are basically trying to get rid of the opioids and the like.

Here are some old journals talking about pain management but maybe more recent journals would give more details.
https://www.jpsmjournal.com/article/S0885-3924(02)00445-1/fulltext
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947845/
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« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2018, 07:40:39 AM »

Pain Centers provide techniques for managing pain that include several non-drug methods, including:

Accupressure
Accupuncture
Muscle relaxation (mental exercises)
Trigger Point Therapy and other massage techniques
Meditation
Hypnosis

And then there are steroid injections straight to the site of chronic pain.
I think that of all these, hypnosis is what you are thinking about: https://www.webmd.com/pain-management/hypnosis-meditation-and-relaxation-for-pain-treatment#1
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kristina
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« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2018, 07:50:19 AM »

Look into German pain management, if someone was researching mental preparation to pain management it would be them (I think).

I've read on Facebook how people go in for major surgery or birthing and they are told in advance that they will be sent home with Tylenol to manage the pain.  I think they are basically trying to get rid of the opioids and the like.

Here are some old journals talking about pain management but maybe more recent journals would give more details.
https://www.jpsmjournal.com/article/S0885-3924(02)00445-1/fulltext
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947845/

Many thanks iolaire for your kind answer and the links you provided to the German Medical Journal and the article about cancer pain-care, it is very much appreciated.
Perhaps it might be a good idea for me to send this question to the same Medical Journal ...
... On the other hand, it seems to be difficult to really figure out where exactly to send such a question, because on one hand it is without any doubt medical, but on the other hand it could also be an "agent-related" question ...
... Logic tells us that if agents were not fully prepared for the worst (i.e. mental pain management etc.), there would be no interest to work in such a field ?
Many thanks again from Kristina.
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  He was completion and fulfillment in itself, like a meteor which follows its own path.
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iolaire
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« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2018, 07:56:06 AM »

FYI This is one of the stories I read:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/27/opinion/sunday/surgery-germany-vicodin.html

also relevant to your post on another thread:
https://global.handelsblatt.com/politics/why-germans-love-medical-marijuana-876458
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kristina
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« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2018, 08:02:32 AM »

Pain Centers provide techniques for managing pain that include several non-drug methods, including:

Accupressure
Accupuncture
Muscle relaxation (mental exercises)
Trigger Point Therapy and other massage techniques
Meditation
Hypnosis

And then there are steroid injections straight to the site of chronic pain.
I think that of all these, hypnosis is what you are thinking about: https://www.webmd.com/pain-management/hypnosis-meditation-and-relaxation-for-pain-treatment#1

Many thanks Marilee for your kind suggestions.
Some years ago I have tried to get some training in self-hypnosis as a pain-management and I have also tried to get hypnotized ... I tried very hard, but was told that I am one of the people where hypnosis does not have the desired effect, in short, it did not work for me ... I shall have a look into all of your suggestions and especially into muscle relaxation, that sounds really interesting and I have not heard of it before...
Many thanks again from Kristina. :grouphug;
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Bach was no pioneer; his style was not influenced by any past or contemporary century.
  He was completion and fulfillment in itself, like a meteor which follows its own path.
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kristina
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« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2018, 08:18:25 AM »

FYI This is one of the stories I read:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/27/opinion/sunday/surgery-germany-vicodin.html

also relevant to your post on another thread:
https://global.handelsblatt.com/politics/why-germans-love-medical-marijuana-876458

Many thanks again iolaire, that was a most interesting read !
Mind you, I am not sure I could ever be a candidate for that sort of pain-killers, because I would be concerned that it could compromise my thinking  ...
Many thanks again from Kristina. :grouphug;
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 08:23:04 AM by kristina » Logged

Bach was no pioneer; his style was not influenced by any past or contemporary century.
  He was completion and fulfillment in itself, like a meteor which follows its own path.
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                                          ...  Oportet Vivere ...
kickingandscreaming
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« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2018, 09:51:44 AM »

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I would be concerned that it could compromise my thinking  ...

I just posted in another thread that marijuana (cannabis) is available with no psychotropic qualities.  In other words, marijuana strains that predominate in CBD (cannabidiol) rather than THC (the psychotropic part) can be very useful for pain and seizures and many other conditions and they don't compromise thinking.  They also divide cannabis into two classes: Sativa and Indica.  The first is highly psychotropic and is best for daytime use--but it does make you high.  The Indica strain is for sleep and relaxation and pain control and has very little effect on the mind.  I personally use (legally) an Indica strain to help with insomnia--something that I no longer struggle with now that I use MMJ every night.
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kristina
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« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2018, 01:08:35 PM »

Many thanks K&S for your detailed explanation. It is very kind of you to take the time to explain and it is very much appreciated.
Mind you it still takes my serious "thinking it through" to find a way and understand details.
... There is one thing that still bothers me a bit because I don't quite understand it yet : here in the UK there were, over the years, quite a few newspaper articles describing, that taking drugs i.e. cannabis, marihuana etc. in whatever form "dims down" the ability of the mind to remain sharp, alert and as objective as possible...  Why would newspapers publish articles like that, if the reality of taking drugs seems different? ... And of course, there arrives - sooner of later - the point of addiction, which surely makes the whole experience very expensive in the long run ...
Another point is, that people like Sigmund Freud became completely addicted to cocaine and his psychoanalysis has been seriously questioned in recent years not only because of his cocaine-addiction, but other factors as well. Of course, Freud claimed at the time, that his constant taking cocaine in such great quantities and his complete cocaine-addiction was for a "good cause" i.e. for his own medical research on the matter ... whatever that may mean ... But : what really concerns me there is : if someone like Sigmund Freud can become a hopeless cocaine-addict, what chance has an ordinary person with pain-issues, if they start with any of it ? Isn't such a thought frightening?
Many thanks again from Kristina. :grouphug;
 
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 01:24:51 PM by kristina » Logged

Bach was no pioneer; his style was not influenced by any past or contemporary century.
  He was completion and fulfillment in itself, like a meteor which follows its own path.
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                                          ...  Oportet Vivere ...
MooseMom
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« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2018, 02:13:12 PM »

I hope these questions do not mean that you are experiencing a lot of pain, Kristina!  Are you having pain that paracetamol won't touch?  I take it when I have pain; I was never told it would harm my kidneys.  Ibuprofen, yes, but not acetaminophen.

Are you OK?
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kristina
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« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2018, 02:35:10 PM »

Many thanks for your kind concern MooseMom, it is very sweet of you and very much appreciated.
I am asking those questions about mental pain-management, because my "two little fighters" are still functioning a bit and I still try very hard to keep them going for as long as is possible.
I have avoided pain-killers for many, many years, because I was told once by a doctor that whatever medicineI would take as a pain killer, it could compromise my kidney-function and I could not take the risk .
Sometimes I am in pain and have been wondering what to do, because I cannot take pain killers for obvious reasons. There is one "thing" that helps me a little sometimes and that is to "park" myself on the sofa and watch a favourite film to distract myself from the pain.
Since this method works already sometimes a little, I have been wondering whether or not there is a real professional mind-training in pain-management, which helps to "ignore" pain as best as is possible...

Thanks again from Kristina. :grouphug;
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Bach was no pioneer; his style was not influenced by any past or contemporary century.
  He was completion and fulfillment in itself, like a meteor which follows its own path.
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kickingandscreaming
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« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2018, 03:15:44 PM »

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Ibuprofen, yes, but not acetaminophen.

Acetaminophen (aka Tylenol) won't kill your kidneys but it will kill your liver.  Take your pick.  I religiously avoid both of them.  There are people who commit suicide by overdosing on acetaminophen.
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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2018, 03:22:14 PM »

Some temporary remedies that outsmart pain signals:

1. Temperature: either warmer or cooler works because a nerve can signal pain or temperature but not both at the same time. That's why a warm or cold compress can help - temporarily.
2. Accupressure: There are spots one can press that 'short-circuit' the pain signal. For example, there's a spot just between fore-finger and thumb that when squeezed can stop a headache in its tracks - temporarily.
3. Music (but you already know this one, eh?): And that goes for listening to music as well as making music.

My hubby says that if he feels a pain starting that he suspects will be getting worse, he takes Tylenol ASAP. It seems that sooner works better to stop it in its tracks and he can then take much less overall.
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MooseMom
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« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2018, 06:50:31 PM »

Quote
Ibuprofen, yes, but not acetaminophen.

Acetaminophen (aka Tylenol) won't kill your kidneys but it will kill your liver.  Take your pick.  I religiously avoid both of them.  There are people who commit suicide by overdosing on acetaminophen.

Absolutely!  Too much acetaminophen will certainly damage your liver! 

What do you take, if anything, for a simple headache, for example, k&s?
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Michael Murphy
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« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2018, 12:09:33 AM »

Years ago I suffered from migraines, while there was drugs to stop the migraine they were dispensed in limited numbers. What I took to doing is to embrace the pain and while laying down with my eyes closed,imagine the pain as a large pool that I was falling into, just me and the pain in a short time I would be asleep for several hours, when I awoke if still in pain I would repeat.   I have done this at the dentist office without Novocain and have had root canals done.  The dentist thought I was crazy but he just chocked my mouth and I would sleep through the procedure.
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kristina
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« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2018, 02:12:38 AM »

Many thanks again for your helpful comments, K&S, Marilee, MooseMom and Michael Murphy, your thoughts are very much appreciated.
Hello K&S, I did not know that the liver could be "killed" by Painkillers like Acetaminophen (aka Tylenol) and it is good to know this for the future; thanks again K&S.
Hello Marilee, that sounds interesting: a warm or cold compress to help with the pain temporarily and have an effect on the nerve, try Acupressure and of course listen to music... I often play the piano when I feel a bit unwell and it always lifts my spirits up and makes me feel a little better after a while and the idea about hot or cold compresses and learning about Acupressure sounds well worth looking into, so thanks again Marilee.
Hello MooseMom, to answer your question to K&S from my side : whenever I have a headache I always check my blood pressure first, because I have noticed in the past, that a headache can be a sign of raised blood pressure. I "usually" don't have to investigate any further and just take an extra BP-medication, which I always write down in my dialysis-diary, together with the raised BP, to keep an eye on it, just in case it indicates a new trend, which I would have to inform the nephrologist of.
Many thanks Michael Murphy for this wonderful new idea of pain management and I shall train myself on it straight away, to have it ready in my mind, whenever the next pain comes along and hopefully it works for me as well. Your method sounds very well thought out and I am very grateful for your detailed description of it.
Many thanks again to all from Kristina. :grouphug;
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 02:15:26 AM by kristina » Logged

Bach was no pioneer; his style was not influenced by any past or contemporary century.
  He was completion and fulfillment in itself, like a meteor which follows its own path.
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                                          ...  Oportet Vivere ...
kickingandscreaming
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« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2018, 03:18:21 AM »

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What do you take, if anything, for a simple headache, for example, k&s?

I don't get ssimple headaches or any headaches.  If I did, I would investigate why rather than mask the discomfort.  I think pain is a message from the body that I'm doing something wrong.  I often have pain in one of my knees.  If it's bad, and persistent I'll ice it or take the weight off of it for a while or check my posture,etc.  But I see the pain as a signal to change something in my behavior.   More complicated pain demands more complicated responses. I rarely reach for the Tylenol  (I'm not even sure I have any.)
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Charlie B53
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« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2018, 06:27:08 AM »


Pain isn't the same for everyone.  What some may be able to shrug off may completely disable another.

There are many different types and causes of pain.  Not all will respond to the same treatment.  I should rephrase that as Opiate meds can make huge differences in some people. Not for me.  Opiate meds just make me stupid so I don't care so much about the pain.  They do NOT relieve the pain.

Depending on the location and cause of pain I've found ICE to be near magic.  An ice bag on localized damaged/injured area can numb the area, greatly relieving the pain. That first 24 hours are critical as the reduced circulation using ice also prevents much of the swelling, greatly speeding recovery as the body won't have to remove those excess fluids of the swelling.

Chronic pain is a whole different problem.  Nerve paths can get sensitized from the constant signals.  Breaking this cycle can be tough.  I have a couple of TENS units that have made some difference in disrupting the nerve signals.

I also have 5% Lidocaine patches that I can place directly on an affected area that do make a difference.  They work great on mad muscles, not at all on a pinched nerve.

Chiropractic adjustment of impinged nerves can help.

Learning the root cause of the pain will make the biggest difference as treatment of that root cause is necessary.

Pain itself raises blood pressure.  It is the bodies natural defense to protect and provide healing blood flow to the affected area.

Currently I am taking Methadone for chronic pain.  I love it.  NO Brain cloud, NO Constipation.  Other than the diminished pain I haven't notice any negative side effects.

I hope I've helped.

Take Care,

Charlie B53
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« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2018, 09:02:25 PM »

We ALL know what is a cheap and effective way to control chronic pain. The trouble is the politicians are fine with people drinking but not using pot.
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« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2018, 11:51:10 PM »

A Serotonin reuptake inhibitor may help. Sometimes adding natural flax seed to foods help take the edge off.
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« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2018, 02:16:44 AM »

Many thanks for your kind replies, K&S, Charlie, GA_DAWG and PrimeTimer, I very much appreciate your kind thoughts.
I have tried to use some ice on a pain-spot in the past, but have noticed that a hot water-bottle on a pain-spot helps a little more.
For example, I had for many years - on and off - pain in my right kidney and I was always told by many different doctors that there cannot be any pain in the kidneys as kidney-pain supposedly does not even exist. But in my case it did exist and so I searched about what to do and found a way to "park myself" on the sofa and put a hot (not too hot) water bottle over my right kidney and after a while the pain disappeared, until the next episode...
I suppose right now I try to find out more ways of how to deal with pain in case "my number comes up" for a transplant and I can well imagine that life after a transplant can be very painful because of the operation etc. and I also want to avoid painkillers in the future in order to protect the new kidney if and when it comes along...
Many thanks again from Kristina. :grouphug;
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  He was completion and fulfillment in itself, like a meteor which follows its own path.
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                                          ...  Oportet Vivere ...
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« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2018, 09:30:19 AM »

For example, I had for many years - on and off - pain in my right kidney and I was always told by many different doctors that there cannot be any pain in the kidneys as kidney-pain supposedly does not even exist. But in my case it did exist and so I searched about what to do and found a way to "park myself" on the sofa and put a hot (not too hot) water bottle over my right kidney and after a while the pain disappeared, until the next episode...

I was told that "kidneys don't have nerves, therefore, you can't be having kidney pain".  I disagree!

I had regularly occurring UTIs for a while; my first and often only symptom would be sharp, stabbing kidney pain right over my transplanted kidney.  I'd call the doctor, give a urine sample, and sure enough - UTI. 
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April 2007 - Myself and sister also diagnosed with Senior-Loken Syndrome (Juvenile Nephronophthisis and Retintis Pigmentosa)

Since then, I've tried PD three times unsuccessfully, done In-Center hemo, NxStage short daily, Nocturnal NxStage, and had two transplants.  Currently doing NxStage short daily while waiting for a third transplant.

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« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2018, 11:20:35 AM »

The Mayo Clinic lists several causes for Kidney Pain:
https://www.mayoclinic.org/symptoms/kidney-pain/basics/causes/sym-20050902

If none of these problems applies to you, I reckon that's a possible reason your doc said, "no, your kidney doesn't hurt" but if that's the case, perhaps the pain is radiating from elsewhere: In any case, pain means there's a problem SOMEWHERE.

When I had undiagnosed endometriosis I complained of pain, first to parents who took me to the doctor who said I was exaggerating ("don't indulge her, just let her outgrow it."). After a decade of tolerating it, the pain got worse so tried again going through 4 different doctors: They looked for all kinds of reasons that were wrong (at least 2 doctors said I was making it up) but FINALLY it was found! By then there was extensive damage to several organs and required major surgery making it impossible for me to have children. The gynecologist said, "I don't see how you were able to walk around like that. Why did you wait so long?" and I nearly punched him in the nose.

It turns out that the reason they failed to diagnose it sooner is that my pain tolerance was so high that my complaint wasn't BIG enough.
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« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2018, 12:10:28 PM »

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What do you take, if anything, for a simple headache, for example, k&s?

I don't get ssimple headaches or any headaches.  If I did, I would investigate why rather than mask the discomfort.  I think pain is a message from the body that I'm doing something wrong.  I often have pain in one of my knees.  If it's bad, and persistent I'll ice it or take the weight off of it for a while or check my posture,etc.  But I see the pain as a signal to change something in my behavior.   More complicated pain demands more complicated responses. I rarely reach for the Tylenol  (I'm not even sure I have any.)

I guess I'm a very headachy person, then.  I get a headache if I am too hot, too hungry, too thirsty or too nervous.  I get a headache if I've not had enough exercise in a day (if I've sat in my chair binge-watching something, which is rare, but it has been known to happen).  I get a headache if I've not slept well.  I will get a headache if I've had an afternoon nap.  I suppose I indulge in all sorts of behaviours that may result in a headache, but all too often a headache will set in before I get the chance to change the behavior.  I will wait as long as I can before taking a Tylenol, but I don't like to suffer for too long.  So, I can certainly understand not wanting to have to resort to any sort of medicine for pain management!  Sometimes a hot cup of tea will work for me!  Must be due to those years I spent living in England!  LOL!

Marilee, I'm so sorry that you had to endure that sort of pain for that long.  The docs that said you were making it up...were they male?

Kristina, as Charlie has said, pain is different for everyone.  My post tx pain was well managed after my tx.  When I was sent home, I was given a script for painkillers that I ended up not needing.  I never had pain that the occasional paracetamol wouldn't take care of.  You should be given a list of over the counter and/or prescription meds a tx patient should avoid.  When it comes to pain, paracetamol is acceptable while an NSAID (ibuprophen) is not.
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« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2018, 12:25:52 PM »

Moosemom - yes, they were male. It was a female GP who finally said, "It sounds like endometriosis" and sent me for the ultrasound test to confirm and from there to a male gynecologist who did the exploratory and final surgeries.
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As my hubby would say, "Don't let what you can't do get in the way of what you can."
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