Spring 2018 North Korea/US meeting

[MooseMom]

1.  Can anyone here who is celebrating the US backing out of the Iran deal tell us exactly WHY it was such a bad deal in the first place?  Trump keeps telling us how stupid it is but doesn't tell us why.  How much of this decision by the president was influenced by Israel?

2.  Does it really matter if the US has pulled out if all of the other signees are still in it?  Have we become irrelevant?

3.   Why is no one here giving any credit to South Korea's president?  He has already met with "Kimmy".

[Blake nighsonger]

Spoken like a true Gentleman, thanks  you are very kind.

I'm assuming you mean that sarcastically. If so, you are demonstrating the ostrich mentality that is far too common in America and is the main reason America is not the great power it used to be.

Hi Paul, your assumption is correct, " demonstrating the ostrich mentality that is far too common in America and is the main reason America is not a great power it used to be" I offer this to enhance your image and complete that opinion,  

[Simon Dog]

1.  Can anyone here who is celebrating the US backing out of the Iran deal tell us exactly WHY it was such a bad deal in the first place?  Trump keeps telling us how stupid it is but doesn't tell us why.  How much of this decision by the president was influenced by Israel?

2.  Does it really matter if the US has pulled out if all of the other signees are still in it?  Have we become irrelevant?

3.   Why is no one here giving any credit to South Korea's president?  He has already met with "Kimmy".

1.  Iran appears to have violated the deal by keeping an archive of its development activity to date.  There is only one reason to save that stuff - possible later startup.

2.  It matters because other signatories will have to choose to deal with the US or Iran.  One German company has already issued orders to wind down its Iranian operation because of the Trump decision.

If I were king, I would have kept the deal if only to preserve the "Credit rating" of the US.

[Paul]

Only if Iran has been cheating.....

There wasn't a single document from after the deal, all documents were from before, we knew about them. Only President Trump was unaware of them. Israel has a long term problem with Iran, like the America Russia cold war of years ago. They are constantly looking at ways of "getting one over" on Iran. Sadly they have realised that your president is a gullible fool and easy to lead. Basically this is Israel leading the idiot Trump by the nose and getting the US to do its dirty work for them, like an obedient little lap dog owned by the Jews. Don't that make you proud to be an American?

[Paul]

Hi Paul, your assumption is correct, " demonstrating the ostrich mentality that is far too common in America and is the main reason America is not a great power it used to be" I offer this to enhance your image and complete that opinion,

When I was a kid/teenager America was a great country. 90% of the kids at my school wanted to emigrate there when they grew up. Financially it was the greatest power in the world by a wide margin. Nowadays it is not. Not only is it no longer the world's greatest power, its significance is dropping year by year. The government is so much in debt to China that if it wants to, China could demand anything of the US and the US would have to capitulate. And to kids today, America is an insignificance. The only schoolkids who want to emigrate to the US are those who dream of being movie stars and want to move to Hollywood. The rest know America as "That country that their grandparents keep banging on about once being great -Yeah right!"

America 2018, is a mere shadow of America in the 1960s/1970s, history will regard then and now as being two different countries. People like Trump, and posts like your last post are the cause of this. If there was justice for America, you, Trump, and millions of others would be facing treason charges. But that ain't never gonna happen. And America will continue to be washed down the plughole. For those of us old enough to remember how great America used to be that is sad. But things change. Hey Britain used to own half the world (including USA), now look at us. At least I may live to see us becoming a greater power than the US if your countrymen keep their heads in the sand.

[kristina]

Hi Paul, your assumption is correct, " demonstrating the ostrich mentality that is far too common in America and is the main reason America is not a great power it used to be" I offer this to enhance your image and complete that opinion,

When I was a kid/teenager America was a great country. 90% of the kids at my school wanted to emigrate there when they grew up. Financially it was the greatest power in the world by a wide margin. Nowadays it is not. Not only is it no longer the world's greatest power, its significance is dropping year by year. The government is so much in debt to China that if it wants to, China could demand anything of the US and the US would have to capitulate. And to kids today, America is an insignificance. The only schoolkids who want to emigrate to the US are those who dream of being movie stars and want to move to Hollywood. The rest know America as "That country that their grandparents keep banging on about once being great -Yeah right!"

America 2018, is a mere shadow of America in the 1960s/1970s, history will regard then and now as being two different countries. People like Trump, and posts like your last post are the cause of this. If there was justice for America, you, Trump, and millions of others would be facing treason charges. But that ain't never gonna happen. And America will continue to be washed down the plughole. For those of us old enough to remember how great America used to be that is sad. But things change. Hey Britain used to own half the world (including USA), now look at us. At least I may live to see us becoming a greater power than the US if your countrymen keep their heads in the sand.

Hello Paul ... What a strange statement you make there about America !!! America insignificant? You must be joking ! First of all, look at the wonderful music American composers have produced over the years ! Furthermore, please have a look at the wonderful mentality of the Americans ! Their mentality has always proved to be completely and utterly reliable. Whenever there was a "hiccup", politically or otherwise, the American people have always found their way to sort it out in their wonderfully relaxed and calm way and us here in Europe, we have always admired them for it... and that will never change, ever ...
Just my "thrown in" ...

[Simon Dog]

The only schoolkids who want to emigrate to the US are those who dream of being movie stars and want to move to Hollywood.

When I was in India about 12 years ago, one of the engineers told me that "every software developer in India wants to get a job in the US and move there".

[kristina]

The only schoolkids who want to emigrate to the US are those who dream of being movie stars and want to move to Hollywood.

When I was in India about 12 years ago, one of the engineers told me that "every software developer in India wants to get a job in the US and move there".

... Why ? Because American citizens like, for example Mr. Bill Gates and many other American citizens like him, can always teach interested engineers a thing or two about computers and other engineering matters ... and they don't ever mind to give their time to teach others ... and there again: that's to do with their wonderful mentality which I have already mentioned ...
Just my  thrown in ... again ...

[Michael Murphy]

North Korea is capable of inflicting huge casualties on the South Koreans without going nuclear.  The North has a huge amount of tube artillery and rockets emplaned within range of Soul. 

[Paul]

America insignificant?

I didn't say it was "insignificant", I said it was less significant than it was, and is getting less significant all the time. You cannot argue with that, just look at the stats. Or look how America's average GDP has dropped, and is still dropping. Or look how often minor countries simply ignore what America demands, compared with a few decades ago when America said "jump" and the world jumped - now they simply blow a raspberry. Or look how deeply in debt the country is today - compare that to when it used to be the world's money lender. Look how less seriously American TV is taken, when I was a kid American shows were prime time BBC1 or ITV, now they are mostly relegated to Channel Five or the high number channels, or are broadcast late at night, because no one cares about the US anymore outside the US. But most importantly speak to people outside the US. Most consider America a joke nowadays, but forty years ago America was considered important, very important. As I said in my previous post, forty to fifty years ago, nearly all kids outside the USA wished they lived in America. Today they are glad they don't.

I don't know how old you are, but to anyone as old as me who can remember growing up in the 60s and 70s it seems like there are two USAs. The important, influential USA of the 60s/70s and the joke USA of today.

[Paul]

American citizens like, for example Mr. Bill Gates and many other American citizens like him, can always teach interested engineers a thing or two about computers and other engineering matters ... and they don't ever mind to give their time to teach others ...

Sorry, when did Gates ever do this? I know he helps with the malaria problem, but giving his time to teach engineers? Never heard about that. As to "other Americans" doing this. Do you mean "school teachers"? Because we have those in other countries too, you know.

[kickingandscreaming]

As an American  (and one who remembers the 40's, 50's etc. I find myself struggling with my "country-self-image" as a no-longer-superpower.  I'm torn.  It hurts to see my country fall from the heights (thanks to DJ Trump and his accomplices in congress.).  On the other hand, it's nice not to be a superpower and the world's policeman.  But it's a mixed bag.

I'm very idealistic and I value the principles and values that once characterized this nation.  It's deeply painful to live through this devastation of our democracy--especially as an old person with a life-threatening disease.

[kristina]

America insignificant?

I didn't say it was "insignificant", I said it was less significant than it was, and is getting less significant all the time. You cannot argue with that, just look at the stats. Or look how America's average GDP has dropped, and is still dropping. Or look how often minor countries simply ignore what America demands, compared with a few decades ago when America said "jump" and the world jumped - now they simply blow a raspberry. Or look how deeply in debt the country is today - compare that to when it used to be the world's money lender. Look how less seriously American TV is taken, when I was a kid American shows were prime time BBC1 or ITV, now they are mostly relegated to Channel Five or the high number channels, or are broadcast late at night, because no one cares about the US anymore outside the US. But most importantly speak to people outside the US. Most consider America a joke nowadays, but forty years ago America was considered important, very important. As I said in my previous post, forty to fifty years ago, nearly all kids outside the USA wished they lived in America. Today they are glad they don't.

I don't know how old you are, but to anyone as old as me who can remember growing up in the 60s and 70s it seems like there are two USAs. The important, influential USA of the 60s/70s and the joke USA of today.

... Here we go again...  and hello again Paul... I don't really want to "find fault" as such, but there seems to be a little pattern, where it appears to me as if you sometimes take words and meanings out of context - and then, just as it fits a fancy, the criticism starts from there ...   I don't want to sound disappointing by mentioning, that - in my personal opinion -  it does not work like that, when people try to communicate with each other in a positive way ... Of course, we are at a disadvantage here by not talking face to face, but even there it does not work out by just taking a few words out of context and "hammering on" to criticize ...
Sorry, but that is all I can say about this and I would like to point out again, that hopefully one day I might be able to visit America and learn more about the culture, meet interesting people, inventors, find out more about their literature, music and unsurpassed landscapes ... 

[Paul]

... Here we go again...  and hello again Paul... I don't really want to "find fault" as such, but there seems to be a little pattern, where it appears to me as if you sometimes take words and meanings out of context - and then, just as it fits a fancy, the criticism starts from there ...   I don't want to sound disappointing by mentioning, that - in my personal opinion -  it does not work like that, when people try to communicate with each other in a positive way ... Of course, we are at a disadvantage here by not talking face to face, but even there it does not work out by just taking a few words out of context and "hammering on" to criticize ...
Sorry, but that is all I can say about this and I would like to point out again, that hopefully one day I might be able to visit America and learn more about the culture, meet interesting people, inventors, find out more about their literature, music and unsurpassed landscapes ... 

I genuinely have no idea what you are talking about. I posted to say I had not said America is "insignificant" but "less significant that it used to be" and posted examples to show why I think this. Your reply quotes that post, but does not actually put an opinion about this, just says a lot of words that seem to have no connection with my post, or this thread in general. Could you re-word your post in a way that will make your point clearer. Thanks.

[MooseMom]

As an American  (and one who remembers the 40's, 50's etc. I find myself struggling with my "country-self-image" as a no-longer-superpower.  I'm torn.  It hurts to see my country fall from the heights (thanks to DJ Trump and his accomplices in congress.).  On the other hand, it's nice not to be a superpower and the world's policeman.  But it's a mixed bag.

I'm very idealistic and I value the principles and values that once characterized this nation.  It's deeply painful to live through this devastation of our democracy--especially as an old person with a life-threatening disease.

America's position in the world has always been a central struggle, just as you've described.  I can certainly understand being resentful being seen as the world's policeman, but on the other hand, great power brings great responsibility, especially if your goal is to export your way of governance as a way of deterring the spread of communism, fascism, dictatorships and theocracies.

I don't know what it is exactly that Trump and/or Kim actually want.  I don't know what it is feasible to hope for.  Is it merely complete denuclearization of the peninsula?

As for k&s's value for the principles and values of America, what made/makes America unique is that anyone can become an American because being American means holding a set of principles and values, rather than being of the "blood and soil" mindset that seems to be becoming more prevalent today, just as we are seeing in Europe.  I agree that what we are seeing now, the erosion of liberal democracy, is painful.  There does seem to be a growing affinity for a more strongman head of government.  Democracy is hard and requires work, dedication and engagement.  Upholding democracy requires an educated electorate, so when Trump declared that he "loves the poorly educated", he naturally made a lot of us fearful.  Having a strongman as head of government feels like the easy way out, like there's someone up there who will take care of us so that we don't have to.  It's big government at its most lethal.

But back to the topic, does anyone here know exactly what the US and N. Korea are bargaining for?  What will each side demand, and what will each side agree to negotiate away?  Anyone know?

[Rerun]

We got our Korean Americans home without paying a huge ransom.  I'm thinking Trump wants total denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula.  He wants Peace for the world without N. Korea threatening our allies.

Then Trump will work out a "better" Deal with Iran.   

[Jean]

 I agree with rerun and am very thankful for Kristina's views. I am not much of a poster, obviously, but Paul you now go too far. It is not just saying whether or not you said America is in More of a mess or Less of a mess. I am fed up with you constantly bashing my country. If you live here and dont like it then go back to wherever you came from. If any one needs to be bashed it is the "leaders" or rather future ones in England. What a joke the new group is. Dont go blaming Trump for all of America's problems he has only been in office a year and a half. I notice you have not griped about Obama at all. Trump is a master deal negotiator and I have all the confidence in the world in him.

[MooseMom]

It is great news that we got our people back from N. Korea.  We also have American citizens who are being held by Iran, and I am not sure that pulling out of the Iran deal will help their situation.  I hope their families are being briefed by the White House and are being kept as informed as possible about the state of their loved ones.

We don't know what the "price" will be for the return of our people and for giving up nuclear weapons.  While it is true that N. Korea has agreed to suspend any new testing, no one has seriously talked to them about nuclear disarming altogether.  They still can easily destroy Seoul. 

Speaking of our allies, is our State Department talking to Japan and South Korea, or are those two countries going to negotiate a separate peace with N. Korea?  If we want to keep threats away from our allies, don't we need to consult them at some point?  Are we aiming to "talk" to Kimmy unilaterally?  Does anyone know?

Jean, who in Britain deserves "bashing"?  I can think of loads of contenders on both sides of the Brexit divide, but I am not aware of any group that is "new".  Can you explain what you mean because I'm not sure I've understood correctly. 

As for working out a "better" deal with Iran, that's not going to happen because the US will no longer have a moderate Iranian with whom to negotiate.  The hardline Islamic clerics see the US pullout as a massive "I told you so", and as a result, President Rouhani has lost his political clout, and we have lost our Iranian ally.  We have also lost the support of our European allies and the other countries participating in the deal.  They will all continue working together, and we will be on the outside looking in.  President Trump has not indicated what he would like to see in a "better" deal and how he would negotiate that deal unilaterally, at least, I have not seen any information on this subject.  If anyone can give me further information, I'd be grateful.

[Jean]

 Okay, for the first time, I am asking for some consideration. Kidney's are hanging in there, but, now, I have Neuropathy. This disease was made by Satan. My hands shake, I drop things, I would forget my own last name if it wasn't on my Drivers License.

Now then, the newest little bride to be finally revealed last week that she is half black. I have no idea how the British feel about that, but I know it would be acceptable here in the US. However, if the Queen is not happy about it this could cause all kinds of problems
 
That is all i meant. In other words, they are no more perfect than we are and the bashing of America needs to stop.

[MooseMom]

Jean, I am happy that your kidneys are hanging in there, but I am very sorry to hear that you are suffering from neuropathy.     Is there anything your doctor has suggested that might help alleviate your symptoms?  I wish there was something I could do to help you. 

As you may know, I lived in the UK for quite some time, and while that does not make me a loyal royal watcher, I admit to being interested in this particular wedding because Ms. Markle is definitely not what we would define as a "typical" royal wife.  Not only is she bi-racial, but she is American AND, even most importantly, she has been married before and has divorced from a man who is still living.  But the public has known all along that she is bi-racial.  She didn't "finally reveal" anything we didn't already know.

Unless the Queen and the British media are flat out lying, the Queen is very happy about the impending marriage.  In fact, and someone correct me if I am wrong, Ms. Markle was invited to spend Christmas with the royal family BEFORE her marriage to Prince Harry, which is a sign of the Queen's approval because this made Ms. Markle the first fiancée to spend the holiday with the Queen.  Even Kate Middleton was not invited to this event until AFTER her marriage.  I am confident that if the Queen did not approve of this marriage, Meghan Markle would never have been issued such an invitation. 

I can also confidently tell you that the Brits are experts in whingeing about Britain!  But like most other people in the world, they think it's fine to criticize their own country yet do not appreciate the same criticism from foreigners!  LOL!

I hope you are feeling OK today.  I am really sorry to hear about your neuropathy and hope you can find something to make your day better.

[MooseMom]

N. Korea.  Not fun, but on topic.

The Royal Wedding.  Not on topic, but much more fun.

Neuropathy.  Never fun. 

[MooseMom]

Wait a minute.  Why aren't we sending Jared to fix N. Korea?  I thought he was supposed to fix everything.  Or was that only the Middle East?

[lulu836]

But back to the topic, does anyone here know exactly what the US and N. Korea are bargaining for?  What will each side demand, and what will each side agree to negotiate away?  Anyone know?

The way I understand it the US wants N Korea to have absolutely no nukes (nothing that requires fissionable material to complete its job), cease and desist all research and testing on said equipment (more on that later), a much smaller or even non-existent military and a signed agreement to never, ever possess, desire or use nuclear material again.

NK will probably agree to the "no research" part because they have already declared that no more testing is necessary because they have perfected their version of a nuclear defense solution.

NK price is recognition and respect as a nuclear power, a seat at the UN and a face-to-face meeting with POTUS.

The most common reason for  meeting is Singapore is that NK doesn't have a military plane nor the distance capability to reach any other "neutral" country.

I know there are more and  better explanations so somebody else jump in here is you feel it is necessary.  No trolls please.

[Paul]

Paul you now go too far....... the bashing of America needs to stop

You misunderstand my point. Firstly, although I have a very low opinion of Trump and his ability to run the country, the points you are arguing about have only a little to do with Trump. You will note that I talk of the decline of America from the 1980s onwards, Trump has only been president for the last two years of that thirty eight year period. Secondly my point is that America can be saved, my posts are about saving America from itself, not degrading it.

If you are not aware as to how great America was four/five decades ago compared to today, you have not studied American history enough to call yourself a patriot. And if you do not want those glory days back, you are as much good to your country as Putin! The point I was making was that the reason America has slid so far, and is continuing to slide, is that most Americans prefer to adopt an ostrich mentality, burying their heads in the sand while shouting "America is still great, shut up you doubters, shut up, shut up, shut up." and letting America slide further into the poop, instead of accepting the problem and doing something about it. Those who are not part of the solution are part of the problem. They are traitors against America ensuring that every day America gets worse and worse, until eventually it becomes a minor non-entity, begging foreign aid from more successful countries. A perfect example of this treason is in your last two posts. Rather than argue for a better America you find it easier to simply complain about what I am saying, stop me talking bad about your country in the hope that if no one says anything about it, reality will go away. That is your right, even though the spoke out against me, I would argue for your right to say what you said. However don't exercise that right and also call yourself a patriotic American, because your posts demonstrate that ostrich mentality that is pulling down America, that has done more harm to your country since my childhood than all Muslim terrorists put together. The twin Towers event was a mere blip compared to the tsunami that your ostrich attitude has thrown at America. Decide now, do you want to continue to be part of the problem and pull the USA further down, or do you want to be part of the solution making America great again? I'm British, so it is not my problem, but you are American, so I would argue that it is your duty.

If any one needs to be bashed it is the "leaders" or rather future ones in England........However, if the Queen is not happy about it this could cause all kinds of problems

I think you thoroughly misunderstand who runs Britain. We have an elected parliament lead by a prime minister. This is roughly (but not exactly) similar to the way you have a senate and a president. The parliament runs the country, most of the decisions are made by the prime minister, but have to be voted on by parliament. Unlike America, the person who is prime minister is always from the party with the most politicians voted into parliament, and almost always (but not at the moment) has a majority in the House of Commons, so what he/she says usually passes the vote. We also have a House Of Lords, but their power has been diluted so much that all they can do is force the House of Commons to vote again on a law, and hope they change their minds. Although people get very heated about the House of Lords (they are not elected) they are really an irrelevance, a lot of noise but no real powers.

The Queen however is not in any way political. We have several traditions that go back to the days when the king or queen really ran the country, but they are nothing but ceremony. For example, all laws have to be signed by the Queen and in theory she can refuse to sign. But if she did, she would have to abdicate (resign) and her successor would then be given the law to sign. And when a prime minister wants to call an election he has to ask the Queen for permission, but if she refused she would again have to abdicate.

The Queen's job is basically as a figurehead. Think of her as being to Britain as Ronald McDonald is to McDonald's. She brings in the tourists and travels the world trying to make Britain look important. But she does not run the country in the same way that the clown does not run the burger chain.

Oh, and if you want to be entirely accurate, where I said "Britain" when referring to the Queen, I should more accurately said "The United Kingdom and her dependencies", but "Britain" is neater.

I am not much of a poster

? It says "Posts: 6025", I think that qualifies you as a major poster!

[Paul]

The Royal Wedding.  Not on topic, but much more fun.

No it is not more fun. It is next weekend, and if I could do so I would go on holiday to a country where they hate Britain and have no interest in our Royal Family, just to get away from that damned wedding. He is fifth in line for the throne which pretty much means he will never get it, so they are "minor royals" destined to hang around on the edge of the news, doing nothing really important but getting enough media interest to make everyonme think they matter. And even if the wedding was of a "major royal" it would be a boring event.

Of course weddings are important to those getting married, to their family, to their friends. But why inflict them on the rest of us? None of us are ever going to even meet the happy couple, so why the interest? If they were "random strangers" no one would give a damn, so why does the fact that they are "royal strangers" make a difference?

If anyone at my clinic has Saturday dialysis and wants to swap with a Friday person, so that they can watch the damn wedding then they can talk to me. "Watching a royal wedding" is one of the few things where I can say "Actually, I'd rather be on dialysis that sit through that."