Tragedy in Texas

[kristina]

It is indeed a horrible tragedy when people can not even go to church without something like this happening. Please people, please dont blame the gun laws on this one. He bought it undercover. He was just evil and that is it!!

Here in England it is illegal to have a gun and ordinary citizens would not even know where to buy a gun, even if they feel endangered ...
We don't have any less crime and more and more often it is being reported in newspapers, radio etc., that criminals are having a gun or two ...
In short, thinking about it, it would almost appear as if criminals here have a better chance to protect themselves ... ?

[Simon Dog]

Here in England it is illegal to have a gun and ordinary citizens would not even know where to buy a gun, even if they feel endangered ...

England has lost its mind.  I recently read of a contractor who was convicted of having "too many" utility knife blades attached to his toolbox.  There is a big problem with knife crime, and even governmental efforts to get people to turn in knives.   One person was ordered to remove a barb wire fence around his property as criminals could get hurt, and self defense of pretty much any kind is prohibited.

[MooseMom]

I recently read of a contractor who was convicted of having "too many" utility knife blades attached to his toolbox. 

People in England recently read of a gunman in the United States who shot, killed and wounded a group of worshippers in their church in Texas.

People in England recently read of a gunman in the United States who, from a hotel window, shot, killed and wounded a group of concertgoers in Las Vegas. 

Which country has "lost its mind"?

There is a big problem with knife crime in the UK?  How do you define "big problem"?  Any "problem" with knife crime doesn't compare with the carnage caused by guns in the United States. 

[Michael Murphy]

/a knife is a single kill at a time weapon comparing them to a weapon capable oshooting 100 people in 12 seconds is just a attempt to deflect attention away from the insane gun laws in the US.  I am not a ban all guns person just military grade weapons.  What the opponents of rational gun laws dont understand is sooner or later the carnage is going to keep getting worse then the voters will demand so protection and the net result could be banning all guns.  Remember the 2 admendment can be admended out of the constitution.  And at least once in our history a Supreme Court decision has been over turned pressed vs Ferguson, was replaced by the Little Rock school case,

[Simon Dog]

Consider the following:

Who is safer?  Me when I go into Boston for dinner with the wife and am legally armed, or a Londener who goes into his city unarmed?   

If you answered "You may be the safer, but society in London is generally safer because commoners are unarmed", it illustrates that you subscribe to a collectivist rather than an individualist view regarding the relationship of this individual to society at large.    I personally am an individualist, but I respect that others may have equally sincerely held collectivist views.

And at least once in our history a Supreme Court decision has been over turned pressed vs Ferguson, was replaced by the Little Rock school case,

Don't forget the 3/5th compromise.

There is a big problem with knife crime in the UK?  How do you define "big problem"?

People cannot got out at night in London without fearing attack by knife armed criminals.   Remember the representative of a religion on peace who stabbed that guy in full view of helpless spectators?   In many parts of the US, the consequences of doing that would be ballistically induced subcutaneous apertures and the problem would be solved before the police could even get to the scene.

London now has "turn in your knife" boxes on streets with the slogan "Surrender you knife, save a life".

[Michael Murphy]

In every thing in life context is important.  Europe has been the scene of knife wielding jihadis attacking people and police,  the British ban is to allow the police to react at the sight of a knife,  this is caused by the unfortunate fact of discrimination against Moslems.  In the US the local Moslem community has been quietly informing on potential jihadis and all but a few have been stopped.  Remember the NRA has put a stop to the ban of weapon sales to people on the Terrorist Watch list.  I personally don’t fancy my chances against a nut with a AR15 and body armor and  me with a concealed carry permitted semi.    This doesn’t even include  the open sale of tannerite which means even if you hit the moron he or she could have a suiside vest on full of legal tannerite and blow the whole place to hell.  How much blood has to flow down the streets before sanity begins,  plus Romberg I have no problem with licemced gun carriers, again I am against 2 types of weapons, military grade rifles and cheap (Saturday Night) pistols.

[MooseMom]

Simon Dog, mate, what are you on about?  I spend three weeks every year in London and all over the southeast of England,  and I can tell you for a bloody fact that I feel safer walking around in London than I would sitting next to you with your weapon!  What if you got drunk?  Got mad?  Didn't get good service, or your food was cold?  How do I know that you won't go all postal?  Or, what if the guy sitting at the table next to you got drunk, mad or unhappy with the service and decided to grab your gun and take it out on me?  Are you seriously asking that question?

People walk about at night all the time in London!  It's the greatest city in the world!  I don't know anyone who goes to the West End and fears getting gunned down at the theatre. 

But it's irrelevant because your post is classic "whataboutism".  "Oh, a bunch of worshippers got massacred by a gunman in Texas, but what about knife crime in London!"  Really?

I don't care about anyone's "sincerely held views" if those views make MY life scarier, and that's MY "individualist view".  I could go all "whatabout" here and point out that slaveowners had "sincerely held views", but then we'd be going around in circles.  Just because certain views are "sincerely held" does not make them worthy of respect.  I will ACKNOWLEDGE that someone has a sincerely held view, but if I think that view is dangerous or irresponsible, I'm not going to ignore it.

After school children were murdered in Dunblane, the UK cracked down on gun ownership.  When American schoolchildren are murdered, more people buy guns.  Why is that?

[Simon Dog]

But it's irrelevant because your post is classic "whataboutism".

Funny thing, your entire speculation about me was "whataboutism".    If you knew me, you would know I don't get drunk, don't get into fights, and have a spotless record.  I did have a neighbor complain to the police about it once (simply because he knew I owned guns), and the cop who responded told the neighbor that the police wished they had more people like me in town.  Oh, and that cop had no problems with me being armed when we were out on social occasions.

There is no "whataboutism" that people in England are defenseless, and no "whataboutism" that a lifelong law abiding citizen stopped the TX cretin with his AR15.   (Only Foxnews headlined that; the other news orgs buried that inconvenient truth deep in the article, and did not mention the type of gun used by the good guy).

What if you got drunk?  Got mad?  Didn't get good service, or your food was cold?  How do I know that you won't go all postal?  Or, what if the guy sitting at the table next to you got drunk, mad or unhappy with the service and decided to grab your gun and take it out on me?  Are you seriously asking that question?

Let's see .... owned guns my entire life, had one brush with the law earlier this year when I overstayed the meter, but I paid the parking ticket and moved on.

My comment about "sincerely held views" was in reference to my respecting your right to a view point different than mine.

Funny thing about school shootings - in many (probably most) states schools are one of the few areas where civilian carry permits are invalid.  Schools in my state (MA) are one place you can be sure no legal gun owner will be carrying.   I guess that must make them the safest places in the state.

Remember the NRA has put a stop to the ban of weapon sales to people on the Terrorist Watch list.

The NRA has no objection to people adjudicated to be violent being denied firearms.  The problem is when the government starts maintaining a list of people who are denied a right, have no right to see the evidence against them, cannot confront their accuser in court, and no right to an appeal before an independent finder of fact.  Imagine if the police could revoke the driver's license of "known drunks" with no OUI arrest, trial or conviction... or if they were arrested, tried and found not guilty.

We sort of have what you seem to advocate in MA.    I recently reviewed a case where someone lost his gun rights because he was charged with a crime but not convicted.   He was a citizen with a spotless record; his accuser refused to testify since he (the accuser) was in jail awaiting trial for a drive-by shooting.   He had been charged with defending himself against an assailant with a record of assault with a deadly weapon.   There is another case where someone had the right taken away because be exercised his right to remain silent when quesitoned by police.

When American schoolchildren are murdered, more people buy guns.  Why is that?

Because people are afraid the govt will crack down and take the kind of guns they are buying off the market.  That is a serious answer, and explains why this happens.   When there was one day notice of a de-facto ban on sale of new AWs in MA, the line to even get into a gunshop after the end of the 9-5 workday was several hours long, and the shops stayed open until midnight when the ban took effect.

[Michael Murphy]

Two things if charged with a crime conditions of bond require you to turn over your weapons, if found innocent they should be returned.  The cops are not always right, innocent people are over charged, every day.  A law suit after a innocent verdict will teach them to sop that practice.

[Simon Dog]

Two things if charged with a crime conditions of bond require you to turn over your weapons, if found innocent they should be returned.  The cops are not always right, innocent people are over charged, every day.  A law suit after a innocent verdict will teach them to sop that practice.

1.   That is already the case in the Democratik People's Republic of MA, however, the police may keep the guns (more technically, not allow you to get them back) even if you are found not guilty.  The courts have held that the police need only "feel they had a reason".  Our state appellate court even upheld a decision that the right to own a firearm may be revoked for lifetime if one exercises their right to remain silent.   I know of what I speak, and write out about $100K in checks a year to fight this sort of thing.

2.   Absent overt fabrication of evidence, the police enjoy almost total protection against suits from innocent people who are charged.  Overcharging is a routine tool used to coerce a plea bargain.

[smartcookie]

I do wonder if the type of population in my state has some to do with the higher than average gun rate death.

This is a politically incorrect question that is racist to even ask 

I was talking about socioeconomic status.  Yes race is included in that, but not the only factor.  I was speaking from a sociological point of view.  If I was racist, I would not be able to do my job effectively. 

[MooseMom]

But Simon Dog, I DON'T know you.  When you take your gun and go out to dinner, your fellow diners don't know you, either.  Why do you assume that everyone would feel safe around you if they knew you were armed?  That's the core of your argument that I can't wrap my head around.

Yeah, I've heard your story about how your local police have told everyone that you're the good guy with a gun.  How many people in your neighborhood have you kept from being attacked or killed by an armed assailant?

The "good guy with a gun" in Texas didn't stop anyone from being killed.  His role in this incident has been inflated.  He shot the guy while he was getting away.  A lot of good THAT did.  And I saw MANY interviews with him and his gun on just about every media outlet I saw, and I don't watch Fox News.

How many "good guys" who were not policemen have stopped the armed "bad guys"?  How many armed citizens have been effective in stopping mass shootings?  Are there any published stats for that?

People in England aren't defenseless.  Good grief.

Do you honestly think that the US government is going to come around and take away everyone's guns?  Really?  THAT's your rationale for having an arsenal at your disposal?  This is fearmongering at its finest.  What is it about Americans that make them so prone to falling for this NRA yelling point?  Why do you buy into that sort of NRA propaganda that makes people buy MORE guns when babies have been gunned down?  What IS it with you people?  You all are not buying more guns because you want to be more able to defend babies, rather, as you have helpfully explained, people want to buy more guns because you think "the government" is going to come take your arsenals away.  That is just warped thinking, and it is very sad.  Furthermore, it's not making our country any safer.

And no, none of my post was anything close to "whataboutism" since I was the one sticking to the point, which is gun violence in the US.  I didn't attempt to deflect attention to knife crime in the UK.

[MooseMom]

I would like to see more research in the area of making guns safer and what restricting guns to certain individuals would look like.

That would be a good idea, but the funding for more research probably would not be appropriated by this current Congress.  That's where the NRA's power comes into play; the NRA will fight any effort to restrict access to guns or to the types of guns that may be deemed illegal.

I do wonder if the type of population in my state has some to do with the higher than average gun rate death.  In many places in South Carolina, there is very real racial tension.  When the population is 50/50 black to white in many areas, people can clash and racial tendencies can be more apparent.  Also, SC is a poorer state with not as many opportunities for education and growth as say New York.  Funding for programs that help low income are hard to come by.  Pair these things with guns, and it can be a deadly combination.

I don't think this question is "politically incorrect" at all.  It's a very valid question, and thanks for asking it, smartcookie!  I don't know as much about your part of SC as you do, so what do YOU think?  Is there a lot of shootings in your state that are racially motivated?  When it comes to armed murder, do you think that racial tensions or socioeconomic hardship is the bigger motivation behind shootings?

[smartcookie]

I think race can be a factor, whether you are white or black.  You can't look at all the racially motivated shootings that have happened in the past two years and not think that.  More then that, though, I think economic status can be to blame.  People who do not have educational and financial opportunities are more likely to exhibit criminal behavior, no matter what race, ethnicity or whatever.  Not to say all poor and uneducated people become criminals, but when you need something essential for life, like say food, you might be more likely to steal just to survive.  Guns can be a way to make that survival happen.  The dialysis clinic I work at is located in a very poor section of town.  It can be a very scary area.  My manager had to call the police this morning because a mentally disturbed gentleman kept trespassing onto the property, peeping in windows and announcing loudly in the lobby that everyone needs to stop parking in his driveway (he lives across the street and thinks the parking lot is his driveway).  In the four years I have worked here, we have had two shootings in some apartments across the street during business hours and several outside of business hours.  I have never had that at other places I have worked.  It is just a scary world we live in.   

[Simon Dog]

Why do you assume that everyone would feel safe around you if they knew you were armed?

If you don't know me fairly well, you will not know I am armed.   I'll just be a nondescript, non-violent person, getting lost in a crowd of one.

I think race can be a factor, whether you are white or black.

It is a huge factor.   I once had a cop say "any weapons" at a traffic stop.  I answered, he politely asked for my carry license, and concluded the stop with "You are exercising your right as an American to be armed and that is a good thing".    I was never nervous, or worried about getting perforated.   I certainly would have been in tremendous fear under the same situation if I were black.  Unfortunately, race and stereotypes remain a HUGE problem in this country.

[Rerun]

Any reasons..... that you can think of???

  

[cassandra]

867 people killed by police in '17 (sofar)


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