Tragedy in Texas

[Rerun]

What do you say?  Texas Strong....   Prayers..... Healing....  There are just no words for Evil.   We can't make guns just evaporate!

You can say "Thank God for the Neighbor good Guy with a gun"

This Idiot was not supposed to buy a gun.  The laws were there.  Do we tatoo them on the nose.  Big red dot?

Would he then go rent a Home Depot truck and plow then down when they were at the Pot Luck?

Is this our new Normal... when the crazies take over ?

[Jean]

It is indeed a horrible tragedy when people can not even go to church without something like this happening. Please people, please dont blame the gun laws on this one. He bought it undercover. He was just evil and that is it!!

[Simon Dog]

This Idiot was not supposed to buy a gun.  The laws were there.  Do we tatoo them on the nose.  Big red dot?

He apparently bought the gun at a dealer.  The feds run NICS (National Instant Check System) in WV.   If the military had reported the dishonorable discharge to NICS, the dealer would have received a rejection on the sale as he was a prohibited person under 18 USC 922(g).

Did you notice it was an ordinary, unimportant, unconnected (i.e., person with no special privileges) who stopped the guy with two rounds from an AR15?

It is indeed a horrible tragedy when people can not even go to church without something like this happening.

Believe it or not, many TX churches require parishioners to be unarmed (an option allowed under TX code 30.06 and 30.07)

[MooseMom]

Oh, my God.  Think about that post...is it really unbelievable that many Texas churches require their parishoners to put away their weapons before they enter their place of worship?  Is there any other civilized country in which that would even be a question?  In which other nation is it just assumed that worshippers would be armed?

Is there anyone on this board who takes a firearm to church?

God is trying to tell us something.  Babies have been killed in Sandy Hook.  People in Las Vegas have been shot dead from a murderer shooting down from a hotel room like shooting fish in a barrel.  Twice, people have have been massacred in their Christian places of worship.  But we do nothing but pander to those who need to have their own private arsenal for their sad hobby.  God is telling us that we must stop this insanity, but we deliberately choose to ignore Him.

If it is indeed true that guns don't kill people but that it is people who kill people, then we need to do something about those people.  Since it is mostly men who kill with guns, then men should not have guns.  The are inherently violent and cannot be trusted.  Statistically, most white men who go on these shooting sprees are also domestic abusers.

The guy who shot the murderer was too late.  I would much rather the killer be taken alive so that he could rot in jail.  Death is too good and merciful.

Congress is never going to appropriate funding for better and more accessible health care for those who need it, so for Trump and Congress to warble on about this being a mental health issue is completely bs.

The US has a big domestic terrorism problem with white male extremists.  We need to call it what it is.

[Michael Murphy]

The problem is the second admendment when it was written a well trained rifleman could fire a shot a minute.  The ar15 with a bumpstock fires a 100 round magazine in 12 seconds.  Equipped with one of theses military grade weapons on idiot today has the fire power of several hundred shooters from the time the second admendment was written.  The NRA has stopped any tightening of controls on gun purchases.  They even stopped the attempt to ban fire arm sales to people on the terror watch list.  If I lived next door to you and I collected explosives and had several hundred pounds of military grade explosives would you want me living next to you.  I personally am not against guns, but I object to two types of weapons, Saturday Night Specials and Military grade rifles. It's time for appropriate weapon restrictions.  I can't buy a switch blade but I can buy a automatic rifle capable of killing 58 people in minutes.  This year the gun massacres appear to be happening in states with few restrictions on who can buy a gun.  To tell the truth  my attitude is you want to allow loose gun laws in your state you will have to live with the bodies that will pile up.  What I really object to is the Presidunce and his boot licking Republican congressmen and Senators trying to force states to allow visitors to have the same carry rights as they have in their home states. 

[iolaire]

I partially support this tweet - I'm not against guns, but do want sound gun control.

Erica Buist‏ @ericabuist 
Why not just ban guns and when people are upset about it, just send them thoughts and prayers?

[Michael Murphy]

That is the best argument about gun control I have ever read? Thank you for sharing iolaire.

[smartcookie]

I know of churches in my area (I can confirm at least three) who form security teams that carry concealed weapons to church just in case something like this happens.  The people who are allowed to carry are carefully selected to help protect the congregation.  You can't go anywhere anymore without fear.  It is a scary world. 

[MooseMom]

I know of churches in my area (I can confirm at least three) who form security teams that carry concealed weapons to church just in case something like this happens.  The people who are allowed to carry are carefully selected to help protect the congregation.  You can't go anywhere anymore without fear.  It is a scary world.

Oh my goodness!  Where in the world do you live?  Is your town so violent that you can't go anywhere anymore without fear?  Is your town a scary place?

Are your dialysis clinics patrolled by carefully selected security teams?  How about your concert venues?  Your schools?  Your local stores?  Your cinemas? 

Which came first, the violence or the guns?  Maybe everyone is so scared because everyone is armed? 

[iolaire]

And in other Texas news today:
http://www.syracuse.com/us-news/index.ssf/2017/11/texas_christian_university_shooting.html
Texas Christian University was placed on lockdown after a reported shooting on campus in Fort Worth, Texas.

NBC reports a shuttle bus driver at TCU opened fire on another bus driver after an argument around 7:30 a.m. Police say the suspected gunman missed the other driver, but bumped into the other driver while trying to drive a shuttle bus away from the scene.

[Simon Dog]

Think about that post...is it really unbelievable that many Texas churches require their parishoners to put away their weapons before they enter their place of worship?

It is unbelievable, especially when you consider the fact that a disproportionate number of mass shootings occur in "gun free zones".

The US has a big domestic terrorism problem with white male extremists.  We need to call it what it is.

Terrorism is generally the attempt to effect political or public policy change through the terrorization of innocents.  What political or public policy change are these white males attempting to accomplish?    Calling it what it is would be "mass murder".

I know of churches in my area (I can confirm at least three) who form security teams that carry concealed weapons to church

A Jewish friend was discretely requested by the temple leadership to carry when he attended services.

The problem is the second admendment when it was written a well trained rifleman could fire a shot a minute.

The same logic could be used to regulate internet and broadcast speech, while allowing persons with Guttenberg style presses to print without censorship.

[Michael Murphy]

I have yet to see a news report kill over 50 people.  The content is protected but today the delivery systems are probably licensed and have other reasonable controls placed on them.  It would take hundreds of trained soilders from back them to equal the fire power in that church.  CNN is reporting that so much damage occurred in the church that it may need to be torn down.  They limit duck hunters to 5 shot magazines in most states but we allow people to walk around with almost unlimited fire power.

[Rerun]

A million babies are killed before they have a chance to live (in a year) in this country.  Maybe God is mad at that...  Ya think?  Women....

My church also has a team who has concealed weapons.  Mostly State Patrol members.

Churches, schools, movie theaters are called Soft Targets for a reason. 

There is on the news right now that a 2 year old is fighting for her life because Mom's boyfriend smacked her in the head and in the stomach for interrupting his video games....   He should be shot before he can go buy a gun.

 

[kickingandscreaming]

What an incredibly misogynistic thing to think/say  So somehow women are to blame for what men do!  And men aren't accountable at all.  Blame it all on God.

[iolaire]

This is a long twitter thread re trained killers, domestic threats, violence twords women and yes guns. It's very worth a read.  The quote is a Facebook friend's comment on the thread.  Make sure you expand the thread to see all 59 tweets.

"Excellent thread on guns,  the military,  and our national blind spots. "
https://mobile.twitter.com/cmclymer/status/927757855113011200

[Michael Murphy]

Concealed weapons would be all but useless against someone in body armor, equipped with a assault rifle firing a circular 100round magazine in 12 seconds.  Not only did the moron kill 27 people he also had so much fire power the local building inspector  is considering condemning the building.

[smartcookie]

I know of churches in my area (I can confirm at least three) who form security teams that carry concealed weapons to church just in case something like this happens.  The people who are allowed to carry are carefully selected to help protect the congregation.  You can't go anywhere anymore without fear.  It is a scary world.

Oh my goodness!  Where in the world do you live?  Is your town so violent that you can't go anywhere anymore without fear?  Is your town a scary place?

Are your dialysis clinics patrolled by carefully selected security teams?  How about your concert venues?  Your schools?  Your local stores?  Your cinemas? 

Which came first, the violence or the guns?  Maybe everyone is so scared because everyone is armed?

I live in South Carolina.  Hunting and guns are a way of life here.  It is not that there is more crime here then other places, most people just feel more comfortable having protection.  I haven't heard anyone complain, though, when told they cannot bring a weapon somewhere like a movie theater or government building.  Like I said, the security team is hush hush... the common church goer would not know that people carry.

[iolaire]

I live in South Carolina.  Hunting and guns are a way of life here.  It is not that there is more crime here then other places, most people just feel more comfortable having protection.

But your state has the corresponding (to higher gun ownership) higher than average gun death rate, once you factor in accidents, suicide and the like at 15.60 deaths/year per 100,000 population.  Not as bad as Alaska my home state at 19.59 but much higher than the national average of 10.64 deaths/year per 100,000 population.

Stats 2013: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_death_rates_in_the_United_States_by_state

This "opinion" piece has informative charts showing the relationship to high gun ownership and death rates, plus the relationship to stronger gun regulations and lower death rates:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/06/opinion/how-to-reduce-shootings.html

I recommend reading it.

[smartcookie]

That is a very interesting article, Iolaire!  Thank you for bringing that to my attention.  I would like to see more research in the area of making guns safer and what restricting guns to certain individuals would look like.  I do wonder if the type of population in my state has some to do with the higher than average gun rate death.  In many places in South Carolina, there is very real racial tension.  When the population is 50/50 black to white in many areas, people can clash and racial tendencies can be more apparent.  Also, SC is a poorer state with not as many opportunities for education and growth as say New York.  Funding for programs that help low income are hard to come by.  Pair these things with guns, and it can be a deadly combination.  Most people I know have guns, and many conceal carry with no issue whatsoever.  However, my clinic is in a bad part of town.  In the four years I have been here, I have been verbally harassed in the parking lot dozens of times (I am not talking about people asking for money or just saying hello... I have had people try to put curses on me for not giving them money or yelling at my patients).  There have been at least two shootings across the street during business hours.  For a while, one of the houses across the street was a crack house.  Of course, I am not allowed to carry any weapons or chemicals to defend myself, and that makes me wary.  This summer, we had a guy coming into our lobby and yelling at staff and patients.  He was arrested for exposing himself and we have trespassing warrant on this guy.  And he is not the first!  I don't even pretend to know what the answer is.  This is such a hard topic to discuss and I am torn in so many ways about gun control.

[Simon Dog]

I do wonder if the type of population in my state has some to do with the higher than average gun rate death.

This is a politically incorrect question that is racist to even ask 

Most people I know have guns, and many conceal carry with no issue whatsoever.

About 5% of the adult population in MA has a gun license, and slightly over 90% of those allow concealed carry almost everywhere except federally prohibited places and schools/colleges, and unlike some states, a "no guns" sign at the entrance to a private business does not make carry a crime.  In fact, we have fewer restrictions on where a licensee may carry than in most "shall issue" southern states.

That being said, crime by carry license holders in MA is pretty much non-existent.

higher than average gun death rate, once you factor in accidents, suicide

I don't believe suicide should be a factor in the comparison, as it is the result of a choice, not a societal risk.

[Michael Murphy]

I have yet to see a news report kill over 50 people.  The content is protected but today the delivery systems are probably licensed and have other reasonable controls placed on them.  It would take hundreds of trained soilders from back then to equal the fire power in that church.  CNN is reporting that so much damage occurred in the church that it may need to be torn down.  They limit duck hunters to 5 shot magazines in most states but we allow people to walk around with almost unlimited fire power.

Edited corrected back them to back then.

[Michael Murphy]

Hunting is not just a right but a necessity.  We have killed off or reduced large predators on the east cost. The best example I know of is New Jersey where the deer and bear populatuion has exploded is the sate is having problem controlling the animal population cause when ever they schedule a hunt the tree hugger arive and interrupt the hunt.  Since I don’t know anyone hunting with a military grade weapon hunters need to be incuragedto keep the bears and deer numbers in check.

[Simon Dog]

It would take hundreds of trained soilders from back them to equal the fire power in that church.

SCOTUS has addressed this in Caetano vs. MA.   A woman was caught with an electric stun gun in a supermaket parking lot near me.    The defense appealed on 2A grounds, and the state of MA argued "stun guns did not exist at the time the 2A was drafted so they are not covered".  SCOTUS issued a GVR (Grant, Vacate and Remand) stating that the 2A did apply to stun guns, directing the case to be returned to state court for a decision consistent with that reasoning.   

I was particularly pleased with the ruling, since I was involved in hiring and paying the attorney who filed an amicus in this case.

It shows the extent of the anti-self defense mind set that they would use the resources of the state to argue before the Supreme Court to try to maintain a ban on a self defense device specifically designed to be non-lethal and a substitute, in some cases, for firepower.  In fact, the state argued that the woman could have simply obtained a license and carried a firearm instead of a stun gun.  (stun guns are still illegal in MA, even if you are licensed to carry a loaded .357 ... go figure)

[Michael Murphy]

Do you need a 100 round in 12 seconds gun for self protection who are you protecting from the invading Russian army.  Personally I prefer a shotgun.

[Charlie B53]

I believe it all boils down to individual RESPONSIBILITY.

Those of us raised with weapons, guns, hunting, have very deep seated sense of responsibility.  Many of us are also Veterans.  We take guns seriously.  No joke.

A lot of these younger people today don't seem to have much sense of RESPONSIBILITY.  Blaming anyone and everyone other than themselves for whatever happens.

Making the determination who is responsible and who isn't can be difficult. 

Rerun's idea of a red dot on the nose is pretty good.  How to decide WHO gets those dots is another question.  Our school system has a number of problems.

How can we assess everyone's mental health, sense of responsibility, and make a determination as to who can be trusted?