Trump voters will go down in infamy

[Michael Murphy]

The insane reality is while it loudly coded American drone attacks most if not all drone strikes originate fron Paktstani air fields. The Pakistani government is involved in a war on the tribal territories for control.  American drone strikes remove people that oppose the government of Pakistan,  Each time the Pakistian government complains it is with a wink wink, they could stop the strikes by banning the drones from their airfields. 

[Bill Peckham]

Drone activity has moved to North Africa
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-has-secretly-expanded-its-global-network-of-drone-bases-to-north-africa/2016/10/26/ff19633c-9b7d-11e6-9980-50913d68eacb_story.html

[MooseMom]

Might doesn't make right, as we saw in Vietnam.

Actually, it did.  Might in a war is defined by who wins.

Well, that sounds very clever, so please define what you mean by "might".  I assumed you meant who had the greatest firepower.  The US had nukes.  The Viet Cong did not.  So it seems to follow that the US had "might".  However, if you mean that the definition of "might" includes who has the greatest guile, the best strategy, the superior tactics, the best knowledge of the conditions and territory and a clearer purpose, then obviously the Viet Cong had the "might" that made "right".

[MooseMom]

Bill, I can't access this article about expanded drone activity in N. Africa.  Can you tell us why our military has done this?  Thanks.

[Simon Dog]

Well, that sounds very clever, so please define what you mean by "might".

Who was better able to fight the war to win,. given the constraints (the fact that our opponents would give aid to our enemy).  It was the other side, not the US. 

I'll give you a perfect example of "might makes right", even when it is clearly wrong.   Major newspapers and magazines will not allow satirical cartoons of Mohammed because of the threats of violence brought my Islamacists.   Their "might" (willingness to enforce violence) has won the debate as to what publication of their prophet is permitted.    By "right" I mean "prevails in setting the agenda", not "morally correct".

Another example.  Left wing activists can speak at campuses and it's no big deal, because the right wingers aren't threatening violence.   Bring in a left wing speaker, and you aren't faced with an extra $500K or so in "security fees" because of the threat from the opposition.  On the other hand, if you bring in a right win speaker, there will be threats of violence from the left, and massive security costs - often to the point of shutting down someone speaking from a conservative viewpoint.   The "might" of being willing to threaten, and deliver, on violence once again is very effective at determining who will be permitted to speak.

[MooseMom]

Oh, that was genius, I grant you that.  Pretty convoluted, but that was the intention, right?

Some "right wing" speakers actually have something to say.  However, many do not ie, Ann Coulter and that Milo guy.  I've watched speeches by both of them, and they just have nothing to add to the conversation.  But to conclude that having to spend x amount of money in security costs constitutes "might" is pretty far out there.  Spend the damn money.  Or let Coulter et al start a gofundme page for their security costs.

[Bill Peckham]

Bill, I can't access this article about expanded drone activity in N. Africa.  Can you tell us why our military has done this?  Thanks.

National Security U.S. has secretly expanded its global network of drone bases to North Africa
By Adam Entous and Missy Ryan October 26, 2016

The Pentagon has secretly expanded its global network of drone bases to North Africa, deploying unmanned aircraft and U.S. military personnel to a facility in Tunisia to conduct spy missions in neighboring Libya.

The Air Force Reaper drones began flying out of the Tunisian base in late June and have played a key role in an extended U.S. air offensive against an Islamic State stronghold in neighboring Libya.

The Obama administration pressed for access to the Tunisian base as part of a security strategy for the broader Middle East that calls for placing drones and small Special Operations teams at a number of facilities within striking distance of militants who could pose a threat to the West.

U.S. officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss an operation that has not been acknowledged, said the drones being flown out of Tunisia were unarmed and were principally being used to collect intelligence on Islamic State targets in Sirte, Libya, where the United States has conducted more than 300 airstrikes since August.

U.S. officials said they sought access to the air base in Tunisia to close a critical “blind spot” for U.S. and Western intelligence services in North Africa, which has become the Islamic State’s largest base of operations outside of Syria and Iraq. The region is also home to al-Qaeda-linked fighters.

Obama administration officials say they have tried to shore up Tunisia’s fledgling democracy and position the country as a key counterterrorism partner in the region. Although the drones operating out of Tunisia conduct only surveillance missions, U.S. officials said they could be armed in the future if Tunisia gives the United States permission. The Tunisian Embassy in Washington declined to comment.

The U.S. military has other drone bases on the African continent, from Niger to Djibouti. But officials said they were too far from populous areas on the Libyan coast to be useful in day-to-day counter terrorism operations there. The longer drones have to travel to reach their destinations, the less time they have to “loiter” over their targets.

For lethal strikes in Libya, the U.S. military has relied on manned U.S. aircraft based in Europe and armed drones flown out of Naval Air Station Sigonella on the Italian island of Sicily.

Sigonella is relatively close to Sirte, but flights from the base are routinely canceled because of cloud cover over the Mediterranean and other weather-related issues, officials said.

U.S. logistical concerns about using Sigonella and other bases in Europe for operations in North Africa prompted the Pentagon’s push for a facility on Tunisian soil.

The Obama administration has kept its negotiations over access to the base secret for more than a year because of concerns that Tunisia’s young democracy, worried about being closely associated with an outside military power, would pull out of the talks, or that militants would step up attacks in the North African country.

The Islamic State has already claimed a number of attacks in Tunisia over the past two years, including the killing of dozens of foreign tourists at a beach resort in 2015.

Defense officials said the Pentagon has deployed about 70 military personnel to Tunisia to oversee drone operations there.

Tunisia was the Obama administration’s first choice of countries in North Africa to host U.S. drones because of its proximity to Libya and Washington’s interest in rapidly expanding security ties with the government.

But U.S. officials said the negotiations came at a particularly delicate time. Five years after their uprising against dictator Zine el-Abidine Ben Ali, Tunisians have grown increasingly frustrated with many of their post-revolution leaders. In the summer, disaffection over the economy and security boiled over, leading to the premier’s ouster.

Tunisian officials negotiating the drone deal were particularly concerned about a public backlash over cooperation with a foreign power and wanted to avoid the appearance that they were a party to U.S. military operations in a neighboring country.

At the same time, Tunisian officials were eager to secure additional U.S. support for their counter terrorism fight at home. Tunisian officials were especially worried that an eventual assault on Islamic State hideouts in Libya could send militants streaming across the border into Tunisia.

The United States was already conducting manned surveillance flights over Tunisia, providing the country’s security forces with intelligence about extremist threats. That program helped smooth the way in Tunis for Washington’s request to base drones there.

U.S. military officials in Washington and Stuttgart, Germany, where Africa Command is based, grew increasingly eager to strike a deal with Tunisia this past spring.

Opening a drone base there would help clear the way for the long-awaited Sirte operation, they said.

A brazen attack in March on a town near the Libyan border provided proof for some Tunisian officials of why more U.S. help might be required.

Under the memorandum of understanding giving the Pentagon access to the base, the Americans committed to helping build up Tunisia’s intelligence-collection capabilities.

While Tunisia is racing to grow its own aerial surveillance program, with U.S.-manufactured ScanEagles and other light manned surveillance aircraft, the country remains reliant on the United States and other allies for intelligence about militants.

As part of the new arrangements, the Obama administration agreed to share intelligence from the Reapers with Tunisian security forces to help them improve border security. But so far, the United States has made drone flights inside Libya the priority and officials said that is unlikely to change at least until the campaign in Sirte winds down. The battle in Sirte has already lasted far longer than U.S. officials had expected, as effective Islamic State defenses and repercussions from Libya’s political crisis slow the advance of local forces backed by U.S. air power.

The United States’ second military intervention in Libya in five years has underscored the challenge that the Obama administration has faced getting even close NATO allies such as Italy to open their bases to armed U.S. drones.

While U.S. surveillance drones have been based in Sigonella since 2011, the Italian government refused to give the U.S. military permission to fly armed drones out of the base until earlier this year, citing concerns about sparking an anti war backlash at home.

Desperate to fill the intelligence void over Libya, the United States briefly had to use drones based in faraway Jordan.

The Obama administration had considered opening backup talks with Egypt about putting a drone base there to support operations in Libya. But U.S. officials said those talks were never initiated.


Note the article was published before the current administration, I think it is likely that the area of operation has expanded.

[Simon Dog]

Oh, that was genius, I grant you that.  Pretty convoluted, but that was the intention, right?

Some "right wing" speakers actually have something to say.  However, many do not ie, Ann Coulter and that Milo guy.  I've watched speeches by both of them, and they just have nothing to add to the conversation.  But to conclude that having to spend x amount of money in security costs constitutes "might" is pretty far out there.  Spend the damn money.  Or let Coulter et al start a gofundme page for their security costs.

The security cost is necessary because left wingers threaten violence.

Would you be telling a liberal speaker to pay for their security costs if the conservatives were threatening violence?

Seems to me that one side is more violent when someone they disagree with speaks.

And it is not for you, or me, to determine which speakers "have something to say".  I personally feel Rachael Maddow has nothing to add to the conversation, but it is not my place to imply that she should not be speaking.

But to conclude that having to spend x amount of money in security costs constitutes "might" is pretty far out there. 

You missed my point.  My point was that threatening violence, to the point where the other side constrains what may be said in public, is an example of might.

The Muslims have enforced a speech code on the media through the use of force or threatened force.   Making someone behave in a way they do not want to by use of violence is the definition of might.

[MooseMom]

Sure!  If a "liberal speaker" couldn't speak at some location because of the threat of violence, I certainly WOULD suggest they start a gofundme page to cover security costs!

Just because it "seems to you" that "left wingers" threaten violence doesn't make that the reality.  But I do agree that it seems that these days, any kind of peaceful protest is more likely to be infiltrated by people who have no core beliefs other than to stir up trouble wherever they can. I personally would prefer that conservative speakers speak freely on campus because that's the only way they will be exposed for what they truly are.

Rachel Maddow is certainly very liberal, but to claim that she has nothing to add to the conversation means you are not listening.  You can vehemently disagree with every single thing she believes or has to say, but to so casually dismiss her journalism is rather facile.  We all know that Ann Coulter and Milo Y. are mere provocateurs.  They are hardly investigative journalists as is Maddow.  I have seen them and listened to them very closely, and I have yet to figure out what they actually believe in.  Milo fascinates me.  I love listening to him speak because he IS a provocateur, and I find him to be entertaining.  But when he is questioned by thoughtful people, his act crumbles and he is left looking rather silly, and I find myself feeling sorry for him.

I most certainly can determine if certain speakers "have something to say"!  That's what critical thinking is for.

As for threatening violence being an example of "might", OK, whatever.  I suppose Harvey Weinstein would be a better judge of that.  I also suppose one could say the same for an abusive husband.

[MooseMom]

Thanks for the whole article, Bill. 

[Simon Dog]

I most certainly can determine if certain speakers "have something to say"!  That's what critical thinking is for.

It is an opinion, not a judgement.  Stating it as an objective fact implies that there are not other equally sincerely held viewpoints.

Did you notice that Coulter was one of the few (maybe only) people who said that Trump was the only Republican running (out of a then huge field) with any chance of winning?    Seems like that was "something to say".

As for threatening violence being an example of "might", OK, whatever.  I suppose Harvey Weinstein would be a better judge of that.  I also suppose one could say the same for an abusive husband.

Yup, but might has turned on him and he no longer has it.   PSGWSP.

[Jean]

It is indeed a sad day when Leftists can peacefully talk and poison the minds of other leftists, but a "Right Winger" Should pay for protection when they speak. How is that equal or fair? It isnt, but that is the way it is.
Donald Trump was more than likely the most honest man on the stage of the debates, other than Mike Huckabee. You can stand there and call DJT any thing you want. This is a free country. You can also choose to listen too Rachel Maddow    altho I do wonder who does the cooking and cleaning at your house, since you spend most of your days researching and complaining. And you do know everything about everything. I think you and K&S should get together more often. The negativity from you two could blow the entire world apart. Now, there is " might" No doubt about it.

[Michael Murphy]

I just heard that trump said  to the widow of the fallen green beret killed in Africa.  This man has the nerve to cast aspersions on black football players for kneeling during the anthem saying it disrespects service men.  Then the moron tells the widow that he knew what he was signing up for.  Then he accuses the widow and congress women of living even though he was heard on a speaker phone and there were other witnesses.  He says something stupid then lies about it.  One of the major news organizations has been tracking his lies since he became president, last count well over a thousand lies or exaggerations.  He takes every opportunity to congratulate himself on his limited achievements.  A bully, braggart, and a moron it’s some president the people choose.

[Jean]

He SAID, the soldier knew what he was signing up for and did it any way. He is a real Hero. ( meaning the deceased Soldier ) Are you people going deef? Dont take what the alleged news prints for truth. Hear what DJT actually said.

[Bill Peckham]

I found this Rachel Maddow segment to be very informative, https://youtu.be/gXJi1-y5_GA

No one asked the president about condolence calls/letters, this whole thing was manufactured by the president. What is unclear about that? And why is nothing being said around the circumstances of these deaths not the presidential contact after the fact. The circumstances in Africa not those in DC. Rachel Maddow does a good job reporting here credit where credit is due.

FYI this segment builds on the previous segment which is also good https://youtu.be/dfMtXl10g-A

And this Morning Joe also gives well reported context of the call https://youtu.be/aTz04Vxhr0s

I'd welcome any links to similarly well reported segments from sources the president's supporters find informative.

[Michael Murphy]

Unfortunately for LYIN Donald the call was taken in the Widows car, on a speaker phone, with witnesses other than the congresswoman.  Trump insulted the widow and defamed the memory of one of America’s best.  And his claim the democrats were politically biased and should not be using the death for political gain when the moron said Bus and Obama never called families and at least he did.  Obama called and Bush called family members even though it took a considerable amount of time due to the increased amount of casualties during theiir presidencies.  One more time trump talks like he is a hero.and anyone else is a shumck  the trump supporters need to pull their heads  out of their butts and recognize what they have made president.

[willowtreewren]

Bill said:

I'd welcome any links to similarly well reported segments from sources the president's supporters find informative.

Therein lies the problem. Both sides consider the sources from the other side "fake news." Having said that, those on the right tend to disparage fact checking, while those on the left are more likely to fact check. Studies have shown this to be true:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2017/06/09/study-conservatives-despise-the-fact-checking-industry/?utm_term=.f000964dde76

So, how do we bridge this gap in verifying our sources?

I also welcome links that back up the claims made by supporters of the *president.* But then, the fact-checking should commence on both sides.

Aleta

[MooseMom]

altho I do wonder who does the cooking and cleaning at your house, since you spend most of your days researching and complaining.

Okey dokey!  Here's my activity schedule from yesterday!

Awakened at 7:20 AM and jiggled my husband awake as his alarm clock is on the fritz.

7:30AM emptied the dishwasher as my tea was brewing.  Then ate breakfast consisting of cereal with banana slices and Michigan blueberries.  Reloaded dishwasher.  Made the bed.

8:00 AM  Started laundry.  It was a "whites and lights" day, so laundered hubby's dress shirts.

8:20 AM  Shifted newly washed clothes to dryer.

8:45 AM  Took dress shirts out of dryer and hung them up while still hot so that they wouldn't wrinkle.  Took said shirts upstairs and hung them in hubby's closet, and then went back downstairs to retrieve other dried clothes.  Hauled them back upstairs, folded them and put them away.

9:15 AM  It was still a little cool outside, so while the day was still warming up, I remained indoors to clean the hardwood flooring upstairs.  I recommend Bona products for this particular chore!  Their microfiber sweepers and mops are outstanding.

9:39 AM  My husband is one of those men who leaves "trails", so I always need to take some time in the mornings to clean up after whatever it was that he ate or did the previous evening.  I like to go to bed a bit early to get in some reading time as I am generally too busy during the day to sit down and read.  This means retrieving the various remotes, fluffing pillows and folding blankets (he gets cold easily).

10:00 AM It's a bit warmer now outside; a perfect fall day.  Our city has a brush collection every month, and as I've been away for so long over the past couple of months, there is plenty of yard work to do.  My husband likes having a nice garden but doesn't like doing what it takes to make and keep it that way.  Brush collection is tomorrow, so yesterday I spent 3 hours in the front and back gardens.  The first leaf pick up of the year is coming up, so there was a lot of raking AND brush hauling to do.  My back garden is on a decline, so the brush I have to have disposed of has to be hauled from the bottom of the garden, along the side path next to our house and then along the driveway and onto the curb.  There were 2 small "trash trees" that I wanted to get rid of because they just looked, well, trashy, so I sawed them down and then sawed those into several manageable pieces.  There were many other sizeable branches that had blown down from my yard and also from our neighbors' yards, so I gathered those and made about 5 trips to the curb to add them to my growing pile of brush.

12:30 PM  I started doing some raking and added to my impressively large pile of leaves for pick up, but then it started getting windy, which meant that the leaves I'd gathered started blowing around.  I decided to wait for calmer conditions on another day.  By this time, I realized I was getting hungry.

1:00 PM  Lunch, and then after lunch clean up.

1:45 PM  The weather has been so nice for quite a while now, so I've been keeping the kitchen windows open so that I can see my trees turning colors!  I have an oblong copper table along the wall beneath the windows, and I noticed that the items I keep on that table (my grandmother's clock and a beautiful wooden bowl in which I keep chocolate) needed cleaning.  I removed said items and used a special wood cleaner that I have and polished them up.  I cleaned the copper table and replaced the clock and bowl.

2:15 PM  This is probably the time when I need a bit of a sit down.  I went online to retrieve emails, get lab results, check various sports scores (not good ones, it transpired) and, as it happened, look at IHD.  This is my researchin' and complainin' time!  Yay, right?  Mind you, I may well have been researchin' and complainin' at a different time during yesterday (just as I'm doing now).  I don't remember the exact times, but I'm sure you can check that out.

Sometime later in the afternoon:  I noticed that my stairs needed dusting, so I got out my handy vac and did that.

Since it was meant to be a chilly evening, I brought some of my potted plants indoors for the evening.  I noticed that my some of my sedums were looking a bit messy, so I spend the next half hour cutting them back and getting rid of the dead stems.  I also cut back my peonies and hibiscus and added the spent stems to the brush pile.

At 5:15 I sat down and watched a bit of the news until hubby came home.  I watched that sad interview with the gold star family.  Made me cry.

Hubby is battling type 2 diabetes and has lost over 70 lbs.  He has a treadmill and walks every evening, but when the weather is nice, we like to walk outside.  We did just that at around 6PM.

Dinner!  Actually, because of his diabetes, I've pretty much handed the kitchen over to him.  So yes, he DOES do most of the cooking mostly because he's a bit of a fusspot.  I want him to be comfortable with his meals, and as he is fastidious about counting carbs, and since there are specific meals he likes, he is quite happy to do the cooking.  He's not so thrilled about cleaning up afterwards, so I do that.  We had tacos last night made with buffalo meat cooked with adobo sauce.  An easy meal to make, but my goodness, there were a lot of bowls and pots to clean up.  I put the leftovers away and loaded and ran the dishwasher.

I was pretty tired after all of that, so I decided to take an early shower.  I had washed my hair the evening before and had used a new conditioner.  As I got into the shower last night, I could feel that there was residue from it and it felt gross and slippery, so I scrubbed down the tub.

And that was the end of a typical day for me.

[Michael Murphy]

Trump just claimed the democrats, FBI, and Russians conspired to fix the 2016 election.  He just troughs crap hoping something will stick.

[iolaire]

Trump just claimed the democrats, FBI, and Russians conspired to fix the 2016 election.  He just troughs crap hoping something will stick.

Call a lie a lie...

[iolaire]

This quote from a random commenter on a WaPo article The security bill is for protection from disrupters. The left wing disrupters should foot the bill.... seems to be the sentiment of most conservatives who post on the internet. 

Yet I ask did you suggest the same thing when anti abortion activists (and murders) protested in front of abortion clinics?  Those protesters did their best to prevent people and providers from accessing abortion clinics and the clinics or landlords were stuck footing the bill to protect the providers and clients from bodily harm and general harassment...

[Simon Dog]

Yet I ask did you suggest the same thing when anti abortion activists (and murders) protested in front of abortion clinics?

I most certainly would.  The  solution is to arrest and prosecute those unlawfully interfering with movement, not shutdown the clinic.   (which is what is done when enough liberals shout down and threaten a conservative speaker).

This is the kind of thing I was referring to: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/19/uc-santa-cruz-college-republicans-meeting-disrupted-by-leftist-protesters-three-arrested.html

Some on the left feel their position is so righteous that they actually have the right to demand that opposing viewpoints be shut down rather than allow them to participate in the marketplace of thought and ideas.

[Michael Murphy]

Simon dog as a card carrying liberal I completely agree with your last post. Freedom of speech means just that. Every one has a right to express there opinions in a free society.  The bizarre Antifa movement (anti fascists). Are what they oppose a little group of fascists trying to dictate thought and speech.  They should move to China or Iran where they would fit in perfectly.