Trump voters will go down in infamy

[Simon Dog]

Oh and Clinton is a private citizen so why is she still a point of debate?

People are talking about Trump being corrupt while completely ignoring the fact that he beat an opponent who was at least as corrupt, perhaps more so.

[kickingandscreaming]

Can you document Hillary Clinton's corruption?  Not just with garbage from Fox or Breitbart.  But with real facts.

[MooseMom]

Can you document Hillary Clinton's corruption?  Not just with garbage from Fox or Breitbart.  But with real facts.

Not gonna happen.

[Simon Dog]

Can you document Hillary Clinton's corruption?  Not just with garbage from Fox or Breitbart.  But with real facts.

Does the NY Times qualify as a source of real facts?

The acceptance of donations by the Clinton Foundation from people or entities who need access to, or favorable action from, the department of state during here tenure as secretary is well documented.   Examples include donations by middle east potentates, as well as the cash flow to the foundation during the Uranium One deal.   The later is documented in a NY Times article https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html

This was all structured legally, so I would refer to it as "soft corruption" or "failure to maintain even the appearance of a lack of conflict of interest".  It's not in the same category as stuffing cash in the bra (Shades of MA Senator Dianne Wilkerson) or selling a senate seat (Illinois governor) but is still corruption in my opinion.

The beauty of "soft corruption" is that political supporters can claim "perfectly legal"; opponents can claim "obvious corruption"; and both would be right.

[Rerun]

Hillary claims to support women, yet took money from these Eastern Countries who openly abuse women.  I don't get that one.  Oh, wait, women in Saudi Arabia can drive now....

I would have had more respect for Hillary if she would have divorced Bill's ass when he cheated on her.  Like Huma did Anthony (finally) and like Harvey Weinstein's wife is doing. 

[Jean]

If you would take the time to go back and read your horrible ranting and raving in regard to Hillary and then far worse the insults and demeaning posts about our SITTING POTUS and sit and think about it you will see exactly what is wrong with our country you will see the big deal. HATE!!!! All you do is hate Trump and since he won the election he is our POTUS. You dont want to even give him a break. From the day he was elected, all the loud mouths have criticized him and his family no matter what they did. Not even 6 months to start off with which is surely what Obama got and God knows the man is crooked. (Obama). What happened to the loyalty Obama got? He slowly worked his way into corruptness and hid it all. Obamacare is the biggest joke ever. Hillary Clinton is under investigation by Trey Gowdy. If any one can find it, he will, but most of you will just ignore the truth when it comes out. The country is in an uproar in regard to Colin, also a hate job. Had he announced his method of getting respect, maybe things would be different. I dont know. I do feel he had no right to disprespect our POTUS. DJT has a temper, no doubt about it, but he is a good man and prays every day in our White House. I stand behind him.

[Michael Murphy]

Go back and read 8 years of posts about Obama’s.  Now the people who so viciously attacked Obama, including the current potus cry over evert joke and comment.  Trump with his birthed attacks started a trend and created the environment he has to govern in,  If you want me to treat him like a president let him act like a president.  Personally I think he is a low life quisling a secret member of the Russian oligarchy.  Instead of Pence it seems he wants Putin to help run the country just as he let Putin help elect him.  Mean while as his polls drop he responds by slandering Obama and Clinton.  But it you make jokes about him you are unAmerican.

[Simon Dog]

Where was the outrage when the US was sending funds to Israel to try to tip their election?  I'm talking Washington Times reports, not Brietbart.  http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/12/obama-admin-sent-taxpayer-money-oust-netanyahu/

Or is it an acceptable practice when the US does it, but unacceptable meddling when another nation does it to us?

[kickingandscreaming]

Oh.  You mean that "reputable" rag, the Washington Times?  Sun Myong Moon's lunytoon newspaper?

[Jean]

Jokes, jokes??? Jokes are fine, bashing is not and it has been vile since the day of his iinaugaration. Obama had 4 , no probably 3 and 1/2 years of idolatry. You cant deny it Michael, I mean his face was on the cover of Time magazine about a couple of months after inaugaration. I personally hoped he would do well, even tho I did not vote for him, I gave him the respect he deserved, and then starting his second term, almost immediately he went down the tubes with all of his "Executive" signings, most of which were designed to make our lives harder. And the dislike for him grew and then it became hate, because we couldnt start out with hate, since then we would all be racists. If Trump owed anything to Putin, surely it would have showed up by now, wouldnt it?? Well, go ahead and bash him if you think that is the right thing to do. I simply do not.

[Michael Murphy]

Then why has the entire Trump circus lied about his Russian contacts.  As the new digs they find more and more Russian contacts.  His entire group has lied and hidden his attempts to build in Moscow and his attempts to do business with  Putin oligarchs.  I don’t fault Russia for meddling but the Traitors in the USA who aided  the plot deserve to spend the rest of their lives in a Federal prison.  I quote the traitor Mike Flynn, Lock them up.  The hacking was a crime and helping the hackers is a conspiracy.  It’s time for Americans to stand up for our laws and Constitution and stop worrying about NFL players and begin worrying about traitors in our government.

[Jean]

Michael, you and I have both been around long enough that we are No longer naive about much of anything. Do you seriously think that all of the campaign managers and backers have been as pure as the driven snow?? HUH, Come on Michael. I know you are smarter than that. As far as the rest of your post, I agree with you completely!!!

[Michael Murphy]

No I know that dirty tricks have been a historical reality in our politics since the beginning, but in the 70s they reached the point after watergate they were made a federal crime.  This law made the parties at least back down on the games they were playing but to involve a foreign government that is hostile to the US is a new low, not only against the law but just plain unpatriotic.  The Trump regime despite its flag waving smoke screen is being investigated for consorting with a government that has been a enemy of the US for almost 100 years.  Their contacts have been denied, proven, down played by the entire administration.  We are supposed to respect a man I consider a traitor.  The fact he is a moron, who brands every thing he doesn’t like fake news, the fact is he is a fake president.  During the election he attacked Obama for playing a occasional game of golf.  Then after the election every weekend he can be found at a golf course, which costs the tax payers a fortune for every round he plays.  He’s been President for 10 months and the only thing he has done is side with the nazis, Russians, the NRA, against the interest of the people who elected him.

[Simon Dog]

Oh.  You mean that "reputable" rag, the Washington Times?  Sun Myong Moon's lunytoon newspaper?

Ooops, got the Times and Post mixed up.

here are articles from some mainstream sources about the US attempting to meddle in other nation's elections:

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-us-intervention-foreign-elections-20161213-story.html

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/state-dept-350k-group-built-campaign-structure-used-against-election-israels

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/29/opinions/hillary-clinton-donald-trump-illegal-electoral-interference-ariel-dorfman/index.html

[kristina]

Hillary claims to support women, yet took money from these Eastern Countries who openly abuse women.  I don't get that one.

Hello Rerun, I don't get that one either and thanks for mentioning it.
It is interesting to observe, that so many politicians stumble over "little details"... and then they wonder why we won't trust them !!!

[Bill Peckham]

here are articles from some mainstream sources about the US attempting to meddle in other nation's elections:

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-us-intervention-foreign-elections-20161213-story.html

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/state-dept-350k-group-built-campaign-structure-used-against-election-israels

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/29/opinions/hillary-clinton-donald-trump-illegal-electoral-interference-ariel-dorfman/index.html

We fly killer drones over other countries too ... does your argument mean if the Turks want to fly a Predator-like drone over the Adirondacks to kill someone they consider a terrorist we should not complain?

[MooseMom]

Simon Dog, you are truly the expert in drawing false equivalencies!!     It is no secret that the US has been meddling in the affairs of other nations for a long time, and I am sure that other countries have done the same.  We all know that Israel has been faffing about in our foreign policy, for instance.  But in this day and age of cyber attacks and the manipulation of social media messaging, do you honestly believe that the US has ever meddled in Russia's elections in the way they have done in ours?  Are you really drawing that equation?

Rerun, I don't like the fact that the Clinton Foundation took money from the leaders of nations that have a history of treating women poorly, but at least they took that money and used it to help women which is more than can be said for Donald Trump who is a sexual predator.  She has done more for the advancement of women's rights around the world than Trump could ever dream of.  His interest in women is singleminded.  Trump used Russian money to finance some of his real estate projects because no other banks would lend him money, he was such a high risk.  Now the Russian puppet is in the White House.  There is a link there, and Robert Muller is going to find it.   

Jean, Trump does not deserve "a break".  He bullied his way to the Presidency, helped by Putin.  He demeaned all of his GOP opponents and had the gall to demean John McCain because he had been captured in Vietnam.  He is a terrible human being and deserves the hatred and ridicule headed his way.  He in no way deserves respect and has done nothing to change anyone's mind.  If his iddy biddy feewings are hurting, he holds campaign rallies with his base so that he can get some love.  He is leading this nation to war because he thinks that will make him a bigger "man".  He is the joke of the modern world.  He doesn't care one little bit about you or anyone like you, so he is a big con.

[Simon Dog]

Simon Dog, you are truly the expert in drawing false equivalencies!!     It is no secret that the US has been meddling in the affairs of other nations for a long time, and I am sure that other countries have done the same.  We all know that Israel has been faffing about in our foreign policy, for instance.  But in this day and age of cyber attacks and the manipulation of social media messaging, do you honestly believe that the US has ever meddled in Russia's elections in the way they have done in ours?  Are you really drawing that equation?

What is "false" about comparing the US attempting to influence foreign elections to our nation's benefit, and Russia doing the same?   It is because the US is morally superior, and we are doing good when engaged in this behavior, but other countries are morally beneath us so it is bad when they do it?

We fly killer drones over other countries too ... does your argument mean if the Turks want to fly a Predator-like drone over the Adirondacks to kill someone they consider a terrorist we should not complain?

This is a prefect example of "might makes right".   We have the power to do drone other countries.  They do not have the power to drone us.   It is a perfect example of the Mao doctrine (political power comes from the barrel of a gun).   

A great example is Turkey.   The US is harboring someone our country does not feel qualifies for extradition, but Turkey wants.   If Turkey had the power to drone him on US soil and not face the wrath of a superior military and a president willing to use it, they very well might.  Would that be any more or less right than the US droning our enemies in other nations?   Once again, might makes right.

[MooseMom]

Oh, Lordy.  I've never thought of the US as being morally superior!  Just the fact that you believe that might makes right proves my point!

I've always hated the drone program and even wrote to President Obama to complain about it.  Turkey may not have the military might to drone someone on US soil, but they are certainly in a geopolitical position to far more damage to us than by using a silly drone.

[Rerun]

Because we ALL hope Hillary runs for President again....

                

[Simon Dog]

Just the fact that you believe that might makes right proves my point!

It is not a matter of "believing" that might makes right, but rather "observing" how the world works.

The US is refining its ability to destroy NK, while NK tries to develop the ability to destroy us.  Both governments do it to maintain their power and sovereignty.   It's "guns for me but not for thee" on a very, very large scale.  The difference is that NK is saying "we both should have the ultimate tool of sovereignty" but the US is saying "Nope, you should exist at our pleasure, and remain unable to resist the US if we decide to terminate your system of government".   Yes, the NK leadership are scumbags... but the principle is one in which the morally right winner will be determined by power, as the winners write the history books.
 
In fact, one of the obstacles to a two-state solution with the Palestenians would be Israel's insistence that the Palestinian state exist at their pleasure, and not be a "power peer".

Read the preamble to The Price by Machiavelli.   He states that the book is an observation about how the world and politics actually works, not a statement on how he thinks should work.  Similarly, do not confuse my observation that might makes right with my belief that it is a morally valid concept.

My point was actually that the US may not be morally superior, and pointing out the irony of condemning Russia trying to influence our election for their benefit while Obama and his minions did exactly the same think to try to unseat Netanyahu in Israel.

Turkey and Pakistan are perfect examples.  We have the power to kill a most wanted person in Pakistan, ignoring that nation's borders, sovereignty and judicial process.   So, we do it.   There is a "most wanted by Turkey" person in the US, but Turkey does not have the power to ignore US borders, come in and kill him, and tell the world "We did it, it was right, and we offer no apologies for ignoring the territorial integrity of the US".   Clearly where as a practical matter (not a moral one) might makes right.

[MooseMom]

Might doesn't make right, as we saw in Vietnam.  It also hasn't worked well in our efforts in the Middle East.  It's an outdated concept.  "Might" has served only to obliterate and no longer seems to be able to create anything stable or workable in its wake.  "Might" is shortsighted.

The arguments posed to support this theory are simplistic as they ignore the restraints put upon us by our allies.  And while we may have more "might", China and Russia have more "say".

Did Obama and his minions release millions of bots onto social media and recruit trolls to tell people that Netanyahu maintained pedophile rings in pizza parlors?  Can you tell me how exactly he and his minions worked to accomplish this goal?  Even if what you say is true, doesn't the fact that it didn't work in Israel but that Russia's attacks on our election DID work tell you something about the gullibility and the general ignorance of those who voted for Trump?

Turkey does not need to kill its "most wanted man" because that country is quickly becoming a dictatorship AND an Islamist state.  His supposed followers (and these are spurious claims by Erdogan) have all been jailed and no longer pose a threat.  Why risk military escalation to come to the US to kill a man who no longer poses a threat?  Erdogan has been given ultimate power via democratic means.  The Turks aren't stupid.  "Might" can be wielded with stupidity, and the US has become pretty well versed in that.

[Simon Dog]

Might doesn't make right, as we saw in Vietnam.

Actually, it did.  Might in a war is defined by who wins.

[Jean]

 Absolutely!!!!

[Bill Peckham]

Each time you think the 45th President has hit bottom, he goes deeper:


https://youtu.be/6sMCqznZBoc


When I unreservedly agree with Bill Crystal it is not a ordinary political situation. This is not an ordinary situation, whataboutism does not hold up to explain it.