Talker on Bioelectrical Impedance Analysis (BIA).

[talker]

Purposely deleted the names, and source, from my out going emails

Still looking for a better way to determine my 'dry weight'.
Did inquire of a scale manufacturer that measures Bioelectrical Impedance Analysis (BIA).
Basically a scale to measure body fat and water content.
Didn't actually expect to get any answer, as things of this nature, are places manufacturer's really don't want to go for valid reasons,
May still get one of these to further experiment with.
------------------------------------
Subject: measuring body water

Hello,

Wondering if these scales are sensitive enough to
measure water retentions variations, as in dialysis patients!
Under certain conditions, one can have from .5 to 2.2 pounds of excess water.
Would such minor variations be registered on the scale?
  Thank you
-----------------------------
(Got back this response:)

Water function using BIA is an estimated value.
We cannot recommend it for use with dialysis patients.

Thank you
-----------------------------

[noahvale]

^

[talker]

A Crit-line is an extremely reliable gauge.  However, since dialysis centers put profit ahead of patient outcomes, you'll very rarely see them utilized.

http://www.esrdnetwork.org/assets/pdf/patients/patient-edu/2012/Patient_Booklet_Critline.pdf

Thank you.
Did have a nasty first use way back in time, and forced a 'don't use on me'.
Will need to re-look at the whole situation again.

[talker]

Well now, did get one to experiment with.
There was a problem with the way the numbers showed up.
They flashed 'by' to rapidly on the small screen.
The scale itself, is a nice looking device, that showed pounds or kilos, depending on how it was setup.
Had it also had a 'recall' button, I would have kept the scale to further experiment with.

Did an Amazon review:
 
 Lacking a 'Recall' Function, July 22, 2015

By The Talker

This review is from: EatSmart Precision GetFit Digital Body Fat Scale w/ 400 lb. Capacity & Auto Recognition Technology (Health and Beauty)

Received this as a gift for my birthday.
All was well until I endeavored to capture the numbers that flashed by showing the various functions.
Those numbers did flash by a couple time.
But not long enough to write them down with special attention to where the decimal point was in the number.
So for me it became a scale that showed what I was looking to experiment with, but without that decimal point, it was essentially useless.
What would perhaps have saved the day, would be a 'Recall' function. Some thing that I could read and positively place that decimal point.
The decimal point is highly relevant to be able to distinguish between the upper limits of some functions. Like is it 54.2 or 5.42, etc.
Did call the support number, and they confirmed that there was no 'Recall' function.

[talker]

Purposely deleted the names, and source, from my out going emails

Still looking for a better way to determine my 'dry weight'.
Did inquire of a scale manufacturer that measures ).Bioelectrical Impedance Analysis (BIA
Basically a scale to measure body fat and water content.
Didn't actually expect to get any answer, as things of this nature, are places manufacturer's really don't want to go for valid reasons,
May still get one of these to further experiment with.
------------------------------------
Subject: measuring body water

Hello,

Wondering if these scales are sensitive enough to
measure water retentions variations, as in dialysis patients!
Under certain conditions, one can have from .5 to 2.2 pounds of excess water.
Would such minor variations be registered on the scale?
  Thank you
-----------------------------
(Got back this response:)

Water function using BIA is an estimated value.
We cannot recommend it for use with dialysis patients.

Thank you
-----------------------------

It was topics like this :

http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=21059.0

http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=31461.msg486385#msg486385

http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=27052.msg486373#msg486373

http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=32738.0

that prompted me to check out a scale, like this one for Bioelectrical Impedance Analysis (BIA).
While I do pay attention and mark down my daily weight, (this is my  gold standard) for 'how much to take off' at each dialysis session, it is still a guessing game.
Not everyone pays attention to keeping a record of each weigh session, and often I see how they suffer from cramping, with too much , too fast.
I insist that the Center use the Ultrafiltration Phases (mostly #1) that removes fluid in various incremental 'step' modes.
Overall. I do quite well, but will always dislike doing dialysis, so do push my protocols toward nutritional support and kidney healing. 

[PrimeTimer]

I don't know if this will help or not but the Navy has an on-line body fat calculator.

Google  US Navy Calculator -Body Fat Calculator   

I admire your willing participation towards your own healthcare. Sounds like you are doing well and one of the reasons why is probably because of your own effort to stay on-top of things. My husband does home hemo (which is irrelevant) but is required to keep a record of his weight and dry weight calculations every treatment (among other things). He says he was told that dry weight is a dark art because it's a moving target. Most days he gets it right but some treatments he is disappointed if he finds even slight edema in his ankles and his BP up. So...he "challenges" his dry weight the next go around or until he's satisfied that he's found his "new" dry weight. Keep up the good work and interesting helpful posts! 

[talker]

I don't know if this will help or not but the Navy has an on-line body fat calculator.

Google  US Navy Calculator -Body Fat Calculator   

I admire your willing participation towards your own healthcare. Sounds like you are doing well and one of the reasons why is probably because of your own effort to stay on-top of things. My husband does home hemo (which is irrelevant) but is required to keep a record of his weight and dry weight calculations every treatment (among other things). He says he was told that dry weight is a dark art because it's a moving target. Most days he gets it right but some treatments he is disappointed if he finds even slight edema in his ankles and his BP up. So...he "challenges" his dry weight the next go around or until he's satisfied that he's found his "new" dry weight. Keep up the good work and interesting helpful posts!

The unit I had looked at, did have a 'Body Fat' and a 'water' reading , but the real problem was reading the decimal point placement as mentioned above.   

[talker]

Good article to read.
There is more, but did find these words interesting:

I have long wondered if the high rate of death in the first 90-120 days of U.S. in-center HD (35%!)1 is caused—at least in part—by overly harsh ultrafiltration. Could pulling too much water or pulling it too quickly be the root cause of sudden cardiac death and of newbies choosing to stop dialysis? I can’t prove this. But, hear me out.

But, 20 years later, we still “challenge” fluid in people starting dialysis. There is technology to measure water levels in the blood. Critline. Bioimpedance. None of this is yet universally accepted—but in-center HD torment is still considered a “normal” aspect of treatment. It’s not normal for dialyzors, though:

http://homedialysis.org/news-and-research/blog/142-dying-for-improvement-the-not-so-hidden-cost-of-harsh-in-center-hd

[Charlie B53]

I don't know how to distinguish the difference in weight, but on PD i weigh morning and night so I can see pretty much exactly how much I gained that day.

It shouldn't be too difficult to locate an accurate scale and record these daily reads and know pretty well how much needs to come off.

Wife does laundry for a few of the older guys around ton so got a business license and want me to find her a baby scale large enough to set a clothes basket on.   I knew better.  Any business that uses a scale must have that scale certified.  I got lucky and found her a platform load cell.  About 2' X 2'   1000 pound capacity,  accurate to less than 1/10 pound.

There are a couple of really big 'boys' around town,  sad to say by they are mentally impaired, Even the Dr's office scale cannot handle their weight, occasionally Patsy will get a call to make an appt to weight one of these big guys.

The State sends a guy around every year to retest and certify the scale, adds the new sticker that it passed.

While I doubt the cost effectiveness of a large scale like this one, my point is there4 are some very accurate electronic scale available that can be trusted to help determine your water weight gain, and help you figure with more accuracy how much weight to pull off.  You just have to do the math to figure weight to volume.

[PrimeTimer]

Thank you for sharing that article, talker. I know very little about critlines and after reading the article, I seriously wonder why their use is not "standard". More and more I am convinced that dialysis patients are left to fend for themselves in the way of education. Clinic staff are always shocked by the detailed questions my husband and I ask and how much that we do know...as if they weren't expecting us to ever really "find things out". Sadly (and obviously), many patients do not or, for various reasons, are simply unable to on their own and for this reason, I can't help but think many are being taken advantage of.

As for palliative care, this article opened my eyes to the subject. Just as it read, I thought palliative care meant "hospice". Boy was I wrong! And now I think palliative care should be "standard".

Again, thanks for posting the article! 

[talker]

Thank you for sharing that article, talker. I know very little about critlines and after reading the article, I seriously wonder why their use is not "standard". More and more I am convinced that dialysis patients are left to fend for themselves in the way of education. Clinic staff are always shocked by the detailed questions my husband and I ask and how much that we do know...as if they weren't expecting us to ever really "find things out". Sadly (and obviously), many patients do not or, for various reasons, are simply unable to on their own and for this reason, I can't help but think many are being taken advantage of.

As for palliative care, this article opened my eyes to the subject. Just as it read, I thought palliative care meant "hospice". Boy was I wrong! And now I think palliative care should be "standard".

Again, thanks for posting the article!

You are most welcome PrimeTimer .
In that I no longer go sky diving, flying the Lear jet or do any more deep sea diving, I do go through the many old posts here, seeking to broaden my dialysis knowledge. (note please,  that my above statement of 'sky diving, flying the Lear jet or do any more deep sea diving,' is mind action to prevent boredom, and not true. Wish it were though.) 

As I find old posts, I do tend to gather the interesting URL links and post them. I figure that as long as I've looked for and have read them, maybe some one else might find that trail of value.       

http://fmcna-hd.com/indications.html

http://fmcna-hd.com/critline_monitor.html

http://www.freseniusmedicalcare.us/en/home/healthcare-professionals/renal-products/dialysis/product-support-services/

http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=6280.msg93124#msg93124

http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=32426.msg502386#msg502386

http://homedialysis.org/news-and-research/blog/142-dying-for-improvement-the-not-so-hidden-cost-of-harsh-in-center-hd

http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=31623.msg488083;topicseen#msg488083

http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=17552.msg305936;topicseen#msg305936

http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=31024.msg480151;topicseen#msg480151

http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=1939.msg28170;topicseen#msg28170

http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=16791.msg291916;topicseen#msg291916

http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=15078.msg266070;topicseen#msg266070

http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=21494.msg355585;topicseen#msg355585

(Minor grammatical thing)