Amanda Knox Convicted in retrial:

[Hemodoc]

Hmmm, a little Helter Skelter or Lizzy Borden perhaps. Yes, women have indeed committed violent crimes with and without drugs or other influences.

It is interesting that Alan Dershowitz,  one of the leading advocates for the underdog wouldn't want his son dating Amanda. It is clear that she is the beneficiary of slanted American media. I had long heard that there was no evidence at all against her. Looking at European sources on this case, that may not be true at all. Nevertheless, it appears that getting rid of the American slant and looking at what the evidence really was against her presents a totally different side of this tragedy.

[kristina]

Message was - by accident - "clicked twice" ... sorry...

[kristina]

I agree with you hemodoc... and if by any chance Amanda Knox is innocent she certainly confused the issue by constantly contradicting herself ...

... and I would like to add that the behaviour of many females has deteriorated over the years ....
and many "traditional behaving females" are not respected any longer either...
whenever a gentleman opens a car- or an entrance door for me, I never forget to say “thank you” ... many females don’t bother to say “thank you” anymore...

There were always impressive scientists like Madame Curie who worked with her husband as a scientific team ...
...or Mileva Maric-Einstein who assisted in developing ground breaking theories in physics and is often portrayed as “Einstein’s student”
but she was an excellent student in physics and mathematics in her own right at the Zuerich Polytechnic (ETH)...
...or sculptresses like Camille Claudel whose sculptures were sold by Rodin as his own...

Whilst at University I came across “The Feminine Mystique” by Betty Friedan, “The Female Eunuch” by Germaine Greer or “The Second Sex” by Simone de Beauvoir...
...these authors left a rather confusing idea and I would like to know if they had a “hidden agenda”...

...that reminds me that many males - not bothering about females - and many females - not bothering about males - get married and “produce messed up” children ...
...I did not comprehend until I heard about their IVF treatment...

Whilst volunteering for a Charity I noticed how many females “picked my brains” or the "brains of the Charity" to get help to pass their exams...
...they did not appreciate the time and results of our studies we shared with them ... or the work of the Charity...
...and they did not donate a penny to the telephone costs of the Charity to make it easier and help many others with the same problem...
...mind you, I did not expect anything, but it would have been nice if they could have managed to let the Charity know the results of their exams...
 
Another fact is that in Britain males die much earlier and but is hardly ever mentioned ... and there is not much real practical help for males either...
... the suicide rate of males is also much higher in Britain ...

... People avoid coming across divorced fathers when they take their child/children for a walk, usually very early on Sunday mornings...
...sometimes these fathers can be heard on the phone begging for a little more time with their child/children...

... Some women can also be observed to walk “their Passport in a Pram” ... “
...producing” a "pram-result "(as it is generally known) grants them... not only the Passport but also a permamemt chance to settle in their "own house" ...
...without going out to work... whilst their ex-husband usually works unsocial hours to pay not only for the mortgage of the ex-wife's house ...
...and a heavy financial alimony... but he also has to rent a cheap little bedsit for himself ... and look after himself on his own...

Some women leave their husband and child/children for new adventures and often give Western females a terrible reputation...
...“whilst freeing themselves” ... not only during their holidays in Mediterranean climates, where people often take great care to observe more traditional relationships ...

...I am fully aware that there are terrible bruisers and nasty examples to be found amongst males as well...

...but the behaviour of many females has changed unrecognizably over the years...
 
...The question is: was it really worth it or has it gone too far?
The alcohol- and drug-consummation of many single females shows a different picture of many "modern females"...

...That is why I still have a big question mark over the “Amanda Knox case” ...
not only because of her many documented contradictions ...
...but also because so many people are “judging her” according to a very "traditional female image" ...
whereas she has not been known to behave in any "traditional female manner" of the “very olden days”...

Kristina.

[Sugarlump]

I don't think her contradictions or contrary behaviour necessarily make her guilty.
I guess we were all a little wilder when we were young or had spells of thinking we were cutting a new groove for ourselves!
But I still see a lot of examples of traditional female behavior around me ... and examples of gentlemanly behavior.
I value a lot of our traditional values and morals ... in fact, I do know people who live their (married) lives in what is termed the 1950 style.
Man goes out to work, woman keeps house, looks after children and man makes the decisions ....
I digress ... but the point is at 18 I believed in female equality and being independent, challenging traditional values.
Now i am (a little) older I no longer feel the same, I like living with a man who protects me, cares for me and makes the decisions when needed.
I like doors to be opened for me and being respected. I prefer to do the female things whilst a man does the other stuff because I am
physically more suited to them.
Some women will go on to equal men in various fields ... but not many remain so.

[MooseMom]

Oh wow, so this thread has gone from discussing Amanda Knox to defining "female equality"?  Really?  OK, I can play that game.

I protect my husband, I care for him and I make the decisions when needed, while at the same time, my husband protects me, he cares for me and he makes the decisions when needed.  Since when does it have to be and either/or proposition?

I like having doors opened for me, but I ALWAYS open the door for anyone who might be directly behind me.  I have opened doors for many men; not many say "thank you".  Just because a man opens a door for you doesn't mean you're "respected". 

I do all of the "physical stuff" because I'm the one at home.  I'm the one hauling broken limbs up the hill onto the curb so that the City picks them up.  I'm the one dragging bags of mulch into the garden.  I'm the one shoveling snow every other damn day because I'm the one "at home".

As for when I was younger, I was the first woman on the broking floor at the the insurance brokerage for which I worked.  This was 1990 in the City of London, which was about the most macho environment in all of the UK at the time.  So while it's true that I voluntarily gave up that job so that I could care for my son after he was born, I cut a new groove for other women who followed in my footsteps.

I truly despise that word "traditional" because it invokes this faux nostalgia, implying that somehow things were better when we were young.  In the 1950s, I would have NEVER had the opportunity to work where I did.  I would NEVER have had access to special educational services for my autistic child.  In fact, autism wasn't even recognized in 1950; instead, I would have been deemed a "refrigerator mother".

As for Amanda Knox, if there is physical evidence that links her to the crime, and if the prosecution can build a case against her that proves her guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt (if that counts for anything in Italian jurisprudence), then fair enough.  But if her "behavior" is all they have to go on, then convicting her would be ghastly.  People who behave as if it were 1950 can still be guilty, just as people who don't behave like it's 1950 can still be innocent.

I am reading an awful lot of vast generalizations here on this thread!  LOL!

[MooseMom]

It is interesting that Alan Dershowitz,  one of the leading advocates for the underdog wouldn't want his son dating Amanda.

So what? 

Does anyone here remember the Louise Woodward trial?  She was the young British nanny accused of killing the baby of the American couple she worked for.  I was living in England at the time, and oh boy, did the Brits drag the entire US legal system AND Americans in general well and truly over the proverbial coals.  Remember the linguistic palaver over how she had testified that she had "popped him up onto the bed"?  Well, I knew what she meant, but the American defense did not.  There was all sorts of microscopic examination of her "morals" and behavior.  I was on a bus in Croydon when I overheard two couples talking about the trial (it was in its final day), and one man made a sweeping and derogatory comment about how the Americans want to convict her just because she was British.  What is it about cases like these that make people go a bit loopy?

[Hemodoc]

It is interesting that Alan Dershowitz,  one of the leading advocates for the underdog wouldn't want his son dating Amanda.

So what? 

Does anyone here remember the Louise Woodward trial?  She was the young British nanny accused of killing the baby of the American couple she worked for.  I was living in England at the time, and oh boy, did the Brits drag the entire US legal system AND Americans in general well and truly over the proverbial coals.  Remember the linguistic palaver over how she had testified that she had "popped him up onto the bed"?  Well, I knew what she meant, but the American defense did not.  There was all sorts of microscopic examination of her "morals" and behavior.  I was on a bus in Croydon when I overheard two couples talking about the trial (it was in its final day), and one man made a sweeping and derogatory comment about how the Americans want to convict her just because she was British.  What is it about cases like these that make people go a bit loopy?

Well shucks, you mean we don't agree on this one?

My initial impression from casually hearing about the case without doing a lot of digging into it was what I had heard, there is no evidence. I looked at some other sources after starting to discuss her case on this thread and it is clear that she is the beneficiary of very slanted and positive bias in the American media.

Yes, there actually is quite  a bit of forensic evidence against her and her boyfriend including his DNA on the victims bra clasp and the victims DNA on a kitchen knife in his apartment.  Then their bizarre behavior, her confession of "being there during the murder" and all of the contradictory statements. Then buying cleaning agents at 7 am the next morning when she claimed to be sleeping until 10 am or so. Well, shucks, that changes things a bit doesn't it. Maybe Italy did really get it right the last time around and the first time around. Just sayin, but I think there is some eye opening evidence and very biased American reporting.

[Sugarlump]

I love a good debate!
I don't think we have (or ever will) true equality.
But I don't hanker after it anymore.
Trying to have equality brings it's own problems...

All I would like to see is worldwide respect for women, particularly in The Middle East and India, and the black holes in our own country
where vulnerable young girls were abused for fun. Respect doesn't necessarily mean opening doors but just holding them in higher esteem.

[kristina]

... Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized:
    In the first, it is ridiculed,
    in the second, it is opposed,
    in the third, it is accepted as self-evident...
... and if we suspect that a man is lying, we should pretend to believe him;
    for then he becomes bold and assured, lies more vigorously, and is unmasked

    - Arthur Schopenhauer –

[MooseMom]

I love a good debate!
I don't think we have (or ever will) true equality.
But I don't hanker after it anymore.
Trying to have equality brings it's own problems...

All I would like to see is worldwide respect for women, particularly in The Middle East and India, and the black holes in our own country
where vulnerable young girls were abused for fun. Respect doesn't necessarily mean opening doors but just holding them in higher esteem.

Sure, I'd love to see worldwide respect for women, but I'd like to see worldwide respect for everyone, for children, for immigrants, for people of different religious beliefs, for the poor, for the ill, for the unemployed, for dialysis patients.  The list goes on and on.  I'm not sure that men are respected any more than women, if you are talking in general terms. I don't have a blanket respect for men just because they are men.  Men sure don't respect each other men just because they are men!

Anyone "trying to have equality" will endure obstacles, but is that reason to become lazy and try no more?  You are able to vote because other women overcame the problems of "trying to have equality".

[Hemodoc]

Hmmm, is this the Amanda Knox thread or did I get lost?

[MooseMom]

Hmmm, is this the Amanda Knox thread or did I get lost?

It's a typical IHD thread where we veer wildly off topic!  I think it went from Amanda Knox's re-conviction to how she didn't behave as a traditional Italian woman to the perceived decline of women's behavior in general and then to how women have never been and never will be equal to men because to demand equality is just too much like hard work.  Or something like that...  LOL!

[Sugarlump]

Hmmm, is this the Amanda Knox thread or did I get lost?

It's a typical IHD thread where we veer wildly off topic!  I think it went from Amanda Knox's re-conviction to how she didn't behave as a traditional Italian woman to the perceived decline of women's behavior in general and then to how women have never been and never will be equal to men because to demand equality is just too much like hard work.  Or something like that...  LOL!

I don't think demanding equality is too much hard work
I think when we are young we believe in it (I remember wearing a sweatshirt at 18 with the slogan "Anything boys can do, girls can do better"... )
I had a career and I happily worked long hours. Made some money.
Then....
along came a baby. And this is where inequality starts. As well as a change in mindset.
We are genetically programmed to care for our young and this affects our future decisions. And our inability to continue the same lifestyle.
Some women manage it, but at a price.

[Simon Dog]

along came a baby. And this is where inequality starts. As well as a change in mindset.

In my case, it was along came dialysis and then a change in mindset.

[MooseMom]

)
I had a career and I happily worked long hours. Made some money.
Then....
along came a baby. And this is where inequality starts. As well as a change in mindset.
We are genetically programmed to care for our young and this affects our future decisions. And our inability to continue the same lifestyle.
Some women manage it, but at a price.

I guess this is true if you do not believe that caring for a baby has value.  I suppose you are right if you feel that making money is what makes you "equal".

Sure, caring for a child affects our future decisions, but for men, having a child affects THEIR decisions, too.  Suddenly, they become the sole breadwinner.  Suddenly, they lose a large portion of totally family income.  They may not be able to continue the same lifestyle, either, because income is slashed and costs suddenly skyrocket.

My mom worked when I was little, and it was during a time when women with young children traditionally stayed at home.  I, on the other hand, cut short my career and stayed at home.  Doing so never made me feel "unequal".  I don't understand that mindset.

I am not sure if you are talking about social inequality or income inequality, or if, in fact, the two actually dovetail.

One thing is for sure...Amanda Knox's lifestyle sure has some enormous limits nowadays! 

[MooseMom]

along came a baby. And this is where inequality starts. As well as a change in mindset.

In my case, it was along came dialysis and then a change in mindset.

And there it is...putting things into perspective. 

[Sugarlump]

Very true
I guess what I was trying to say was that my lifestyle, work,business, etc was suddenly irrelevant ...and of lesser importance.
My daughter became my focus. The one that I put first before anything.
I had 4 children and I never regret being a stay at home mum because I believe it matters to children, to have a parent there for them.
If they're lucky two parents!!!

I guess I expected to pick up my career once they were all in their teens but life had a final twist to play first.
Kidney failure, dialysis and failed transplants...

Oh the best laid plans of mice and men...

[kristina]

Hmmm, is this the Amanda Knox thread or did I get lost?

Thank you Hemodoc and thanks for the information above...

...I mentioned  Schopenhauer because he studied the logic not only of the French philosophers,
but also the thoughts of many Italian philosophers like Giordano Bruno before he developed and wrote down his own theories...
(...and there are many Italian philosophers worth studying ...and many Italians study part of the thoughts of their philosophers as common knowledge...

...I mentioned Schopenhauer’s thoughts on  “and if we suspect that a man is lying, we should pretend to believe him;
for then he becomes bold and assured, lies more vigorously, and is unmasked”... because that is how the Italian police
approached Amanda Knox and her current boyfriend during the interviews (they pretended to believe everything) ...
... whilst they recorded every single word of the interviews and slowly unmasked the contradictions and lies...

[Simon Dog]

because that is how the Italian police approached Amanda Knox and her current boyfriend during the interviews (they pretended to believe everything) ... whilst they recorded every single word of the interviews and slowly unmasked the contradictions and lies...

Anyone who is going to be questioned (in addition to retaining legal counsel) should first read the classic works by Inbau and Reid on police interrogation techniques.   Fascinating material, and it gives a bit of insight as to what techniques will be used against you, the suspect.

As to her guilt or innocence - I have no idea.   It is interesting how people who hear news summaries can be certain that they can arrive at a more accurate conclusion than a court that has heard a weeks long trial.

[kristina]

     

 ... if you tell the truth,

you don’t have to remember anything...

             
         Mark Twain

[Sugarlump]

But sometimes the truth sounds more guilty than fiction ...

[kristina]

... only very rarely....