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Rerun
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« on: January 30, 2014, 03:28:27 PM »

Amanda Knox lives in Seattle.  She is the one accused of killing her female roommate in Italy in 2007.

If you have kept up with this story, do you think she is guilty?
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obsidianom
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« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2014, 08:12:49 AM »

I dont know whether she is guilty or not but I think the Italian justice system is horrible . What a fiasco this whole thing has been. I do beleive in the concept of "double jeopardy" . Since she was set free and the original verdict thrown out for lack of evidence, that should be it. In this country she could NOT even be tried again . The Italian system is quite bizarre.       
 Let her go . She has been through enough. After what I have seen I wouldnt want to ever visit Italy.
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« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2014, 08:31:35 AM »

I've never been able to quite suss out what forensic evidence they have that specifically links her and her boyfriend to the murder, so the conviction seems to be unsafe.  Before, the prosecutor claimed that they were having some sort of bizarre sex party and that the convicted murderer, Guede, was persuaded by them to kill Ms. Kercher.  But now the prosecutor has changed the story, so that leaves more questions than answers.

I don't think the Italians really believe that there is any chance Knox will be extradited, especially un such an unsafe conviction, so I believe they are engaging in legal theatrics.

While it is true that in the beginning Knox's statements were all over the place, and while she did falsely accuse that bartender, that's not enough evidence for a conviction.  Again, I haven't seen any forensic evidence.  Maybe I've missed something, though.
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« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2014, 09:35:22 AM »

There was a case a few years ago where CIA agents (who have since been convicted in abstentia in Italian courts) kidnapped a subject in Italy and transferred him to Egypt to be tortured on behalf of the US.

Knox should be very concerned about Italy doing a similar snatch and grab as payback for the US operation.
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galvo
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« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2014, 07:53:02 PM »

Guilty as sin! Should have to do everyone of her 28 years. What a grubby story and what a grubby individual.
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« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2014, 09:55:57 PM »

There was a case a few years ago where CIA agents (who have since been convicted in abstentia in Italian courts) kidnapped a subject in Italy and transferred him to Egypt to be tortured on behalf of the US.

Knox should be very concerned about Italy doing a similar snatch and grab as payback for the US operation.

Bit of a false analogy, don't you think?  What do you think the political outcry would be if a girl who has been very much in the public eye was kidnapped by Italian secret agents off the streets of Seattle?
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« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2014, 09:58:22 PM »

Guilty as sin! Should have to do everyone of her 28 years. What a grubby story and what a grubby individual.

What is the forensic evidence?  That's what I want to see.
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« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2014, 10:00:06 PM »

Oh, wait a minute.  Why is this in the "Political Debates" forum?  I don't want to be here; I just now noticed.  Can I delete my posts?  Sorry.
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« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2014, 11:19:08 PM »

Amanda Knox lives in Seattle.  She is the one accused of killing her female roommate in Italy in 2007.

If you have kept up with this story, do you think she is guilty?

No, they already have the killer, a known burglar Rudy Guede. He was found at one time with an 11 inch knife during a home invasion. He is the only person with any physical evidence linking him to the crime. There is no physical evidence linking Amanda Knox. I believe you would have to find Knox not guilty if I was on a jury, but the Italian system is quite different.

http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/merediths-killer-rudy-guede/
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« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2014, 03:30:11 AM »

It is difficult to say whether or not she is guilty or not...

She said she wanted to study the Italian language and culture ...
but she seems to have overseen the fact that Italy has many “unwritten social laws” of how young girls should behave,
especially young girls who live/travel without their parents... or family...

She is “guilty” of many “social mishaps” which made her guilty in the eyes of many Italian/Continental people...
First of all: despite the fact that she was in Italy, her behaviour (according to Italian standards) was rather the behaviour of a “lady of the night” ... 
certainly not the behaviour of a “respectable girl” according to Italian “social etiqette” ...

She also lived (as a girl) in a disrespectable area and only seems to have used her own room to change her clothes ...

After the body of her dead flat-mate was discovered, she passionately kissed her current boyfriend publicly.
 She could not give the dead girl at least one minute of respectful silent thought....
such a gesture would have been an absolute “humanitarian gesture”...
 
The fact that her friend was murdered in such a beastly way in the same flat did not seem to touch her in the least...

At first she was only asked to stay as a friend of the dead girl but her own strange behaviour implicated her...
she only seems to have started to be interested in the murder of her friend and flat-mate,
when she was being investigated herself ... but not before...
She can’t have studied or understood much of the Italian culture ...
and did not seem to have bothered either...

That reminds me of an observation I made once in Casablanca:
I saw three American girls walking in hot-pants and very tight t-shirts through the old market talking to each other.
They ignored completely, that a huge male crowd of Arabs followed them...
I would not like to know what happened to those three girls in one of those little dark side-roads...
There was nothing anyone could do, not even “go to the Police” because in Casablanca no one goes to the Police...

I myself was protected because I covered myself with a huge Jelabba and was hiding my long blond hair behind a scarf ...
I was wearing huge sunglasses and all that protected me well enough...
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 03:33:43 AM by kristina » Logged

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obsidianom
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« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2014, 06:01:39 AM »

It is difficult to say whether or not she is guilty or not...

She said she wanted to study the Italian language and culture ...
but she seems to have overseen the fact that Italy has many “unwritten social laws” of how young girls should behave,
especially young girls who live/travel without their parents... or family...

She is “guilty” of many “social mishaps” which made her guilty in the eyes of many Italian/Continental people...
First of all: despite the fact that she was in Italy, her behaviour (according to Italian standards) was rather the behaviour of a “lady of the night” ... 
certainly not the behaviour of a “respectable girl” according to Italian “social etiqette” ...

She also lived (as a girl) in a disrespectable area and only seems to have used her own room to change her clothes ...

After the body of her dead flat-mate was discovered, she passionately kissed her current boyfriend publicly.
 She could not give the dead girl at least one minute of respectful silent thought....
such a gesture would have been an absolute “humanitarian gesture”...
 
The fact that her friend was murdered in such a beastly way in the same flat did not seem to touch her in the least...

At first she was only asked to stay as a friend of the dead girl but her own strange behaviour implicated her...
she only seems to have started to be interested in the murder of her friend and flat-mate,
when she was being investigated herself ... but not before...
She can’t have studied or understood much of the Italian culture ...
and did not seem to have bothered either...

That reminds me of an observation I made once in Casablanca:
I saw three American girls walking in hot-pants and very tight t-shirts through the old market talking to each other.
They ignored completely, that a huge male crowd of Arabs followed them...
I would not like to know what happened to those three girls in one of those little dark side-roads...
There was nothing anyone could do, not even “go to the Police” because in Casablanca no one goes to the Police...

I myself was protected because I covered myself with a huge Jelabba and was hiding my long blond hair behind a scarf ...
I was wearing huge sunglasses and all that protected me well enough...
Lets not get into a "Blame the Victim " mentality. Women should not have to act a certain way or dress a certain way toi be "respectable" and not be harrassed. I realize other cultures see it differently but that still doesnt make it right. No one asks for harrassment just because they are living or dressing a certain way. The problem is the people who think they are entitled to harrass these women(or sometimes men) just because they are"asking for it".
Amanda Knox is not perfect or even someone I care about, but that still deosnt make the harrassment by the Italian presecutors right. 
Also the reason we have the double jeopardy concept is to avoid presecutors being able to harass someone with constant retrials if they cant prove thier case the first time. Can you imagine our system if prosecutors could retry anyone over and over if they lost? Who could afford to pay lawyers over and over while the state has virtually unlimited resources to keep up th prosecution. Eventually anyone could be convicted of anything if the prosecutors had enough retries. Our system may not be perfect but it sure beats the moronic Italian system. (Maybe there is a reason they had fascists run the country when Musellini was in charge. Their justice system" smacks of fascism .)
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kristina
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« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2014, 07:52:12 AM »

 
I only tried to explain the Italian mentality ... and I  only mentioned it because “when in Rome do as the Romans do”...

You mentioned Mussolini... Before Mussolini Italy (like Germany and Spain) was riddled with unemployment and corruption...
one of the results was that many children and people were starving in the streets...  they had lost their homes long ago ...
you don’t need an imagination to get the idea what these people (and children) went through.
It was very difficult for them to think rationally or logically in this situation...
Mussolini (like Hitler and Franco) promised to stop all that... they promised work and food for everyone...
... They also promised that there would be no more corruption...

Of course, as soon as people realized their fatal error, it was much too late
and these dictators had their secret police in every street everywhere and
anyone who said anything against the system was hardly ever seen again...

How sure can we all be that we would do “the right thing”
and that we would be in the right frame of mind to vote for the” right” party
if we had not been able to feed children or eat ourselves for a long time
and we had no home to go to and no hope to get any work ?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 08:03:13 AM by kristina » Logged

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MooseMom
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« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2014, 09:50:53 AM »

If Amanda Knox lived in a disrespectable area, and if Amanda Knox was Meredith Kerchner's flatmate, then it follows that Kerchner lived in a disrespectable area, too.  Has anyone in the Italian press, obviously the monitor of Italian social etiquette, ever examined the behavior of Miss Kerchner?

I've read much of the coverage of this case by the British tabloids, and just because they take glee in labeling Knox as a vixen doesn't make it true.  What it does do, however, is make considered discussion of this case nearly impossible.

When I was around Knox's age, I joined a program put together by St. Louis University and studied in Madrid.  Part of the fee I paid went toward room and board with a Spanish family, which was to be a valuable part of the experience.  We were to have a roommate who was also part of the program, and we were to live with a family.  For some reason, I was deemed to be "independent", and since there was an odd number of female students, I ended up living alone with an elderly widow.  I was pretty much on my own, and I ended up being fair game for every horny Spanish male I came into even passing contact with.  Riding to class on the Metro was a nightmare.  One Saturday I was walking with the grandchildren of the lady who lived one building over.  I was taking them for ice cream.  I spied a group of young men walking toward us down the wide boulevard, and sure enough, as they got close to us, one of them reached out a hand to grab me.  I grabbed him by the wrist and scratched his arm.  I couldn't understand why I was so constantly molested.  Even the adult son (who had a daughter only about 7 years younger than myself) of the woman I lived with would come up from Ciudad Real and pester me.

It wasn't until a few months passed that I realized what the problem was.  It was the color of my clothing.  Women in Madrid dressed in muted colors.  Being from a hot climate like the American South, I wore lighter colors, and sometimes even bright colors.  So I went shopping and bought a lot of dreadfully dull clothes, and I was then left in peace.

My point is that it is hard to study a culture unless you've spent some time there.  Moroccan culture is so different from British culture that it seems to be a bit easier to be prepared before you leave the white cliffs of Dover. 

OK. so let's say that Amanda Knox was not the pure virgin of Italian tabloid dreams.  Perhaps she did indeed "seem" to feel this or "seem" to not feel that.  I'm not sure that means she should be extradited to Italy to spend 28 years in prison.

The only forensic evidence that could possibly be used against her is the knife.  Italian experts have said that the knife in question could not have made the wounds on the body.  No other knife has been found.  All evidence leads to the murderer who is already in prison due to a safe conviction.

The way the forensic material was handled means that an unsafe conviction is highly likely.  No American court would convict her based on such evidence, and I highly doubt that any British court would convict her, either.

There is no chance that Amanda Knox will EVER be extradited from the US.  I doubt that she would ever be willing to leave these shores, given what has happened to her abroad.  So the Italian taxpayers can continue to fund the investigation and the case's journey to the Supreme Court, but it won't matter.  However, if prosecutors can find physical evidence that actually links her to the murder, then that's another story entirely.
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« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2014, 10:18:03 AM »

I thought this article was kind of interesting.  Just a different perspective and putting other perspectives into perspective.  LOL!

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/31/opinion/burleigh-amanda-knox-verdict/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
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"Eggs are so inadequate, don't you think?  I mean, they ought to be able to become anything, but instead you always get a chicken.  Or a duck.  Or whatever they're programmed to be.  You never get anything interesting, like regret, or the middle of last week."
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« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2014, 01:36:48 PM »

Well, it is really quite simple. Looking at direct evidence forensically linking Knox, the answer is NONE. On the other hand, if you think someone has questionable behavior, instead of knocking "foxy Knoxy," who did indeed take great liberties of morality apparently on her trip, she did not have a habit of breaking into other people's homes armed with an 11 inch knife.

Seriously, there is NOT one shred of physical evidence even remotely suggesting that Knox was involved in any manner.  On the other hand, there is overwhelming evidence that Rudy Guede perpetrated this murder alone during a burglary that turned into an opportunistic sexual assault and murder.

I would hate to have to go on trial and defend my bizarre behavior during a bad dialysis day. Shucks, there is not a jury in the US that would convict and if they did, the judge would throw out the verdict. This appears to be more of political gamesmanship between Italy and the US after Italy got such terrible media coverage of all the trials. If anyone should be indicted, it is the Italian jurisprudence system itself. Thank the Lord we have a vestige of justice remaining here in the US where you are innocent until proven guilty. What evidence is there whatsoever that proves her guilt? The answer is none whatsoever.
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Incenter Dialysis starting 2-1-2007
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Started  Home Care with NxStage 6-2-2009 (Qb 370, FF 45%, 40L)

All clinical and treatment related issues discussed on this forum are for informational purposes only.  You must always secure your own medical teams approval for all treatment options before applying any discussions on this site to your own circumstances.
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« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2014, 04:30:03 PM »

I never believed she was guilty, or her ex-boyfriend.  Meredith has (rightly or wrongly, I obviously didn't know the girl) been painted as a perfectly innocent young lady whilst Amanda has been painted as the kinkily seductive tramp who must have been repsonible ... look at how she brazenly kissed her boyfriend in front of the world's media when she should have been sobbing her heart out and banging her fists on the ground in a fit of grief ... 

A friend of mine is Italian and she's very open about her dislike of Amanda and her belief that she's guilty. Her take on it is that Amanda seduced a good, solid, dependable Italian boy and made him help her kill her flatmate. Motive? She has no idea, but thinks it might have been jealousy. We've had a lot of interesting discussions about it when we should have been working hard.  ;D
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« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2014, 12:40:28 AM »

Hmmm,

Here is a very interesting site that looks like it is from the victims family. Much information I have never heard before reported in the US media. Looks like there is DNA evidence and other aspects of this case glossed over by the US media. Well, shucks, opens up a can of worms to say the least for Amanda Knox if all is a factual representation.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/harvard_professor_alan_dershowitz_and_philly_lawyer_ted_simon/
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Peter Laird, MD
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Incenter Dialysis starting 2-1-2007
Self Care in Center from 4-15-2008 to 6-2-2009
Started  Home Care with NxStage 6-2-2009 (Qb 370, FF 45%, 40L)

All clinical and treatment related issues discussed on this forum are for informational purposes only.  You must always secure your own medical teams approval for all treatment options before applying any discussions on this site to your own circumstances.
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« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2014, 04:48:04 AM »

I never believed she was guilty, or her ex-boyfriend.  Meredith has (rightly or wrongly, I obviously didn't know the girl) been painted as a perfectly innocent young lady whilst Amanda has been painted as the kinkily seductive tramp who must have been repsonible ... look at how she brazenly kissed her boyfriend in front of the world's media when she should have been sobbing her heart out and banging her fists on the ground in a fit of grief ... 

;D



... No one asked her to display “operatic histrionics” because she happened to be in Italy...
As I have mentioned before, I have no idea whether or not she is guilty ... or not...
... but I would not dare to satirize of how she should or should not have behaved ...
... it would have been reassuring to see her showing some human emotions...
for example she could have spent a moment of thought for her murdered friend and flat-mate...
find out more what happened to her flat-mate... 
asking how quickly she could get her belongings out of there and move to a secure place...
phone and ask the Embassy for assistance...
assist the police and other authorities with all the information etc. about everything she could remember ... etc.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 04:51:01 AM by kristina » Logged

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  He was completion and fulfillment in itself, like a meteor which follows its own path.
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« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2014, 09:16:04 AM »

No MM you cannot delete your posts!

          :rofl; 
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« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2014, 01:15:17 PM »

There was a case a few years ago where CIA agents (who have since been convicted in abstentia in Italian courts) kidnapped a subject in Italy and transferred him to Egypt to be tortured on behalf of the US.

Knox should be very concerned about Italy doing a similar snatch and grab as payback for the US operation.

Bit of a false analogy, don't you think?  What do you think the political outcry would be if a girl who has been very much in the public eye was kidnapped by Italian secret agents off the streets of Seattle?
Nothing about it is at all false.

1.  The issue is national sovereignty.   The US has a habit of ignoring the sovereignty of other nations when we have the firepower to do so.

2.  The US ignored the sovereignty of Italy when our three letter boys did a snatch & grab in violation of Italy's laws.  Although Italy went through the show of trying the CIA agents in absentia, it was not sufficiently annoyed to expel the US embassy, or close its US embassy.

3.   Unlike Italy, the US did not afford those it grabbed in Italy any due process other than a govt official declaring them guilty (some offenses are so serious that pesky things like trials are not required).

4.   The US is not alone in bypassing the extradition process.   Israel grabbed the person who disclosed some its nuke secrets from Italy and dragged him back for trial via kidnapping rather than extradition.  It is also not exclusively a govt thing - there was the case of the rapist who fled to Mexico and was kidnapped by Dog the bounty hunter.

Sure, there would be a public outcry - but not much the US could do if Italy did pull off a snatch and grab operation.

This woman should also be looking at the Canada extradition situation.  If she is extraditeable from Canada, she should be worried about a trunk job.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 01:21:07 PM by Simon Dog » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2014, 03:51:52 PM »

If Italy says she's guilty, then she just doesn't go to any of the European commonwealth countries, right?
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« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2014, 04:43:00 PM »

Here is an interesting interview with Alan Dershowitz. He didn't go so far as say he believes she is absolutely guilty, but he wouldn't want his son going out with her either. I think reading between the lines, he probably believes she is guilty.

http://www.newsmax.com/NewsmaxTv/alan-dershowitz-amanda-knox-murder-trial/2014/01/31/id/550244
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Peter Laird, MD
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Diagnosed with IgA nephropathy 1998
Incenter Dialysis starting 2-1-2007
Self Care in Center from 4-15-2008 to 6-2-2009
Started  Home Care with NxStage 6-2-2009 (Qb 370, FF 45%, 40L)

All clinical and treatment related issues discussed on this forum are for informational purposes only.  You must always secure your own medical teams approval for all treatment options before applying any discussions on this site to your own circumstances.
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« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2014, 03:48:51 AM »

When I was around Knox's age, I joined a program put together by St. Louis University and studied in Madrid.  Part of the fee I paid went toward room and board with a Spanish family, which was to be a valuable part of the experience.  We were to have a roommate who was also part of the program, and we were to live with a family.  For some reason, I was deemed to be "independent", and since there was an odd number of female students, I ended up living alone with an elderly widow.  I was pretty much on my own, and I ended up being fair game for every horny Spanish male I came into even passing contact with.  Riding to class on the Metro was a nightmare.  One Saturday I was walking with the grandchildren of the lady who lived one building over.  I was taking them for ice cream.  I spied a group of young men walking toward us down the wide boulevard, and sure enough, as they got close to us, one of them reached out a hand to grab me.  I grabbed him by the wrist and scratched his arm.  I couldn't understand why I was so constantly molested.  Even the adult son (who had a daughter only about 7 years younger than myself) of the woman I lived with would come up from Ciudad Real and pester me.

It wasn't until a few months passed that I realized what the problem was.  It was the color of my clothing.  Women in Madrid dressed in muted colors.  Being from a hot climate like the American South, I wore lighter colors, and sometimes even bright colors.  So I went shopping and bought a lot of dreadfully dull clothes, and I was then left in peace.

My point is that it is hard to study a culture unless you've spent some time there.  Moroccan culture is so different from British culture that it seems to be a bit easier to be prepared before you leave the white cliffs of Dover. 



I am very sorry MooseMum for your Spanish experiences and perhaps your College should have prepared you a little...
I don’t know in which year you went to Spain, but during the 1960’s, 1970’s and 1980’s Spain was still in trauma and mourning because of the thousands of victims of the Spanish Civil War... Everyone in Spain had lost relatives during the European political conflict which was “fought out” in Spain...

...there was the side of the fascists (Franco) and there was the side of the Anarchists (Buenaventura Durruti). The Anarchists who were led by Durruti were joined by many democrats, communists, socialists and thousands of exiles travelling to Spain as a last chance to “do something” against the fascists.
...Some of the most famous writers like George Orwell took part and he wrote his tribute in “My Catalonia”;
...Hemingway also wanted to “do his part” but he was not quite accepted because he was known to have betrayed his former mentor Gertrude Stein and that made him politically unreliable... Another important historian and writer who took active part was Augustin Souchy who worked for many papers and wrote books and many tributes to Spain... and there were many others...

Durruti and his men wanted to achieve for Spanish people/workers/farmers to be able to get work and food again...
...they wanted to set up communities in every village to give every village a chance to farm their land with proper agricultural equipment...
Durruti wanted to stop further exploitation of the poor and he wanted to achieve a democracy where everyone was able to make up their own mind 
and assist to make decisions and no more dictatorship and exploitation as suggested by Franco...

After Durruti’s assassination things began to fall apart but many Spanish men had lost their life already...
...most of the exiles made a fatal mistake and went to the Sowjet Union, never to been seen again...
...it had become too difficult for them to travel to America... and most of the other borders were closed already... 
...one of the only ways was over the lake of Constance to Switzerland, but Switzerland was too small for all these people with not enough work to be had...

Franco’s gunmen assassinated many of the remaining Spanish men who had survived the Spanish Civil War,
...especially the men who dared to disagree with anything Franco said ...
...Spain was in mourning from then on and most of the females were widows and – despite being very poor financially – they had to bring up their children without any help,
...without any father for the children, without provider, without grandfather, without uncles and many families were still split between “Francoists” and followers of Durruti...

...All the females were wearing as you say “dreadfully dull clothes” because they were still in trauma and mourning. They had never any help to get over this...
Even after Franco’s death in 1975 his many “underlings” were still lurking through Spanish police and official Spanish authorities for many years to come
... and for the Spanish population there was not much to celebrate about...
...they were wearing these dull colours as a respect for their many thousand dead and many of the dead soldiers were considered as martyrs
...because they never had a real chance to succeed, but they tried very hard all the same... 
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Bach was no pioneer; his style was not influenced by any past or contemporary century.
  He was completion and fulfillment in itself, like a meteor which follows its own path.
                                        -   Robert Schumann  -

                                          ...  Oportet Vivere ...
Sugarlump
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10 years on and off dialysis

« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2014, 03:01:43 AM »

I have never believed she was guilty of murder and there was no real evidence to prove it.
And slitting someone's throat is not a very female act... we tend to do things that are less bloodthirsty and distance us from the act.
I find the Italian legal system very strange that she can be re-convicted after winning an appeal on lack of evidence. There is a lot to be
said for the jury system (rather than the three judges) and i hope, if they do press for extradition that America refuses to hand her over.

That's my threepence worth...
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10 years of half a life
3 years HD 1st transplant Feb 08 failed after 3 months
Back to HD 2nd transplant Dec 10 failed after 11 months
Difficult times with a femoral line and catching MSSA (Thank you Plymouth Hospital)
Back on HD (not easy to do that third time around)
Fighting hard (two years on) to do home HD ... watch this space!
Oh and I am am getting married 1/08/15 to my wonderful partner Drew!!!
The power of optimism over common sense :)
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« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2014, 05:10:15 AM »


I agree with you, females have not been known for such ferocious attacks and murders...
...except when they acted under the influence of certain drugs...
... she admitted herself that she was taking drugs on a regular basis ...
and we don’t know what sort of drugs she really took on that particular night...
...we also don’t know what these drugs “did to her mind” on that particular occasion...
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Bach was no pioneer; his style was not influenced by any past or contemporary century.
  He was completion and fulfillment in itself, like a meteor which follows its own path.
                                        -   Robert Schumann  -

                                          ...  Oportet Vivere ...
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