Sobering Info

[Alex C.]

The reality of sub-saharan Africa is that people die of all sorts of treatable diseases every single day. People still die from dysentery, measles, bubonic plague, polio, HIV, and a whole litany of other diseases which are curable or treatable in our part of the world. Sure, you could spend, say, $100/month to treat 1 ESRD patient in some African country, but that same amount of money could inoculate 1,000 children against polio or measles. Or buy much needed medical supplies to just fight infections. It's simply a matter of best usage of limited resources, and in a country where the average lifespan barely reaches 40 years, ESRD treatments are way down on the list.

[NDXUFan]

I agree with Frankswife!  All the bleeding hearts of America has drained us.  We MIGHT have a cure for failed kidneys or a protable wearable machine by now if not for bleeding hearts money going to other countries and then they could HAVE our flipping machines.

Medicare is almost broke people!  Then what.  No dialysis worker I know will show up to work without a paycheck. 

We need Medicare to stay afloat before we start giving things away.

ND:

Foreign aid is exactly 1 percent of the U.S. Federal Budget. 

[UkrainianTracksuit]

Maybe I can’t read well (obviously) but I think the whole point of this post wasn’t to discuss the geo-political socio-economic blah blah blah health conditions of Africa.  Obsidianom’s point was that we are to be grateful for the care we receive whether it is top notch or bottom of the barrel.  We still receive care if we are on here typing away and throwing around some good points.  Obsidianom brainstormed that maybe he can help in his own way.  If he can make some kind of difference, good for him.  Kidney disease is a global burden and I’m sure being on a forum where people pop up from all over should remind us of that.  Things are what they are and some things we can’t change.  No one is asking any of us to donate, lobby or get all NKVD on our personal opinions.  If you feel you can do something, great.  If this isn’t an issue that concerns you, that’s great too.  The point is that we here get care whether our systems have their ducks in a row or lack some sense.  Maybe your neighbour in the same state or a kid in Uzbekistan doesn’t… and that’s not cool.

I am a product of NGO donations as I lived through the total collapse of a health care system.  Total collapse.  I knew how happy I was to feel better when insulin or medications were allocated to me.  So, in that sense, I feel connected to people in Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan who aren’t so lucky.  Now that I am in a better situation, I can personally help.  And yes, while it does make me feel good, it makes me feel good that someone else feels better.  As people have said, we can’t tackle all the problems of a continent like Africa but it does allow us to be aware of strife.  We could have been born in the same situation as them easily.

I'll just shut up now but I wanted the original positive message of this post to be noticed. Alright, shutting up.

 

[NDXUFan]

Well since this became politicized despite my not wanting that , I have to answer as i started this thread.

Now ReRUN you called me and people who want to help bleeding hearts. Thats pretty funny. You obviously know NOTHING about me. Let me clarify the truth .

I live with my wife alone deep in the woods in the northeast.  I grow my own fruit on an orchard I cleared myself BY HAND with no help. I planted the trees, take care of them and do all the work myself. (19 trees)  . We heat our house with wood. I cut down the trees on our land myself, cut them up , bring them in with a wheelbarrow from the deep woods, stack them and split them BY HAND with a 16 pound maul. We are self sufficient for heat completely. Can you say that? I do this at age 60plus with my damaged body from cancer and while taking care of my wife . No one helps me take care of her. I do it myself.
Both my wife and i qualified for disability years ago with all our medical troubles. (she hasnt eaten in 7 years , using a feeding tube at night for food and water) (and dialyis at home).  Neither one of us applied or took disability. Instead we continue to eek out a living working together in our office part time . She is my only employee. I do all my own cleaning and prepping for my patients with NO help at all, including for surgery in the office. We refused to take a penny from the government despite our circumstances. Yes we are in debt, but never applied for any help or went bankrupt. We still pay all our bills . We are hard nosed self sufficient Yankees. (New Englanders). Even during my cancer treatment (chemo radiation and surgery) I never stopped working part time.
I can go on and on about how we are self sufficient and dont ask the government for anything.

So am I a bleeding heart I do care about others. I dont expect everyone to be able to do what i do. I know some have it tougher and need help. As Americans we are well off compared to most of the world. We take it for granted that we have access to food and shelter and medical care. Many people in the world dont . they are just trying to survive to the next day. Just because I have been able to make it self sufficiently IN AMERICA doesnt mean I believe eveyone else in the world has the same chances to succeed I did. By virtue of their birth they are doomed to limited lives of just barely hanging on.
I cant in good conscience ignore them just because they are not inside the borders of the US.
 People are people , wherever they are. We are all humans . If you are a Christian , then we are all made in Gods image. If you are non religious , then we still are all related through evolution and genetics. Borders of countries are just artificial bounderies. Disease and terrorism cross them regularly and always will . WE can shut the borders but we will still be connected through commerce , travel, polution etc. It is a small planet and we all either live together or die together.

Medicare is not going broke due to any foreign aid . It is simply taking care of more and more Americans. So linking that was a ridiculous argument.

So I ask again, since I care about people outside the US and at home am I a knee jerk liberal ??  If I am then I am proud to be one just as i am proud to be self sufficient . Can you say the same??

ND:
Outstanding post, I could not agree more.  I worked for Reagan in '80 and '84 and I think that President Reagan would agree.  Everyone, regardless of race is made in the image of God.  We have an obligation to help those who did not get the breaks in life.  "As you have done to the very least of my brother, you have done unto me." -Jesus Christ

[kit78]

I don't object to helping others, however, we need to help out our own country first and get EVERYTHING under control. Children need to be fed. Our elderly need better care. We need to teach women to STOP getting pregnant unless you can financially take care of a child without assistance.  And most of all..... we need to take care of out service people when they come home in any way they need. 

[Rerun]

Obsid...  Yes, you are the one who pees on the trees.  Holding your wife hostage out in the woods.  Give all you want to others.  Just how low do you go before you keep for yourself.  I don't think I'm selfish.  I can pray for those people.  I will start doing that.  On 60 minutes this ship goes around Africa and treats people doing like 400 cataract surgeries a week.  I could not get an eye surgeon to touch me.  I guess if I moved to Africa they would do it for free.  I finally got my eye surgery and doing well.  Geez!

I think your thoughts are well and good.  Now let's see you act.  You can send food or you can teach how to plant food.  We have been trying for decades to teach.  Now, we are importing food and our farms are dying.  I don't know .... maybe that is progress.

I worked for 20 years so I do pay for my heat.  And don't leave wood smoke pollution.  Medicare is going broke!  It should be for those over 65 period!  None if us dialysis, transplant people under 65 should be on it.  Political or not we CAN talk the truth on this site.  I did not know "bleeding heart" was a politically charged word.  I'm sorry if I hurt anybodies wittle feewings!

[NDXUFan]

Obsid...  Yes, you are the one who pees on the trees.  Holding your wife hostage out in the woods.  Give all you want to others.  Just how low do you go before you keep for yourself.  I don't think I'm selfish.  I can pray for those people.  I will start doing that.  On 60 minutes this ship goes around Africa and treats people doing like 400 cataract surgeries a week.  I could not get an eye surgeon to touch me.  I guess if I moved to Africa they would do it for free.  I finally got my eye surgery and doing well.  Geez!

I think your thoughts are well and good.  Now let's see you act.  You can send food or you can teach how to plant food.  We have been trying for decades to teach.  Now, we are importing food and our farms are dying.  I don't know .... maybe that is progress.

I worked for 20 years so I do pay for my heat.  And don't leave wood smoke pollution.  Medicare is going broke!  It should be for those over 65 period!  None if us dialysis, transplant people under 65 should be on it.  Political or not we CAN talk the truth on this site.  I did not know "bleeding heart" was a politically charged word.  I'm sorry if I hurt anybodies wittle feewings!

ND:

I am curious what entitles those over 65 to have Medicare, taking the money from younger people who on average have a net worth of around $3,600.00 dollars?  The average couple pays $500,000 into Medicare and receives $1,000,000 from Medicare(taxpayers)(Stanford Department of Economics) is that truly fair?  What entitles these people to have Medicare when they are wealthy enough to afford a home in Florida?  The vast majority of people over 65 have money to burn, why are they entitled to the money earned by a younger working individual?  Why should the youger generation be forced to pay the over 65 crowd's medical bills, Comrade?

EDITED:  Fixed Quote - Rerun, Moderator

[MooseMom]

I don't object to helping others, however, we need to help out our own country first and get EVERYTHING under control. Children need to be fed. Our elderly need better care. We need to teach women to STOP getting pregnant unless you can financially take care of a child without assistance.  And most of all..... we need to take care of out service people when they come home in any way they need.

When we have people getting paid millions and millions of dollars to entertain us (movie stars, athletes, etc), and when 1% of the population in this country holds the vast majority of this nation's wealth, no one can tell me that the US is running out of money and that we don't have enough to feed our kids, look after our elderly and make sure our vets get the care they need.  What is needed is a good look into our collective soul and figure out our priorities.  When a billion dollars has been spent on a presidential election, our financial problem isn't the inability to stop financially insecure women from getting pregnant.  US citizens and companies shouldn't be able to hide their profits from the taxman; that money could be used for all of those things you have called for.  If you want to call that "redistribution of wealth", then you are spot on.  But I will stop here since this is not a political thread.   

[obsidianom]

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[Rerun]

I believe... when we were YOUNG we paid into Medicare and now that my siblings are turning 65 they expect to draw. (I'm only 52)  So, that is why the young ones are paying into it now so that when they turn 65 they can draw.  But, it may not be there and ONE reason is dialysis patients.

If you or your spouse is on dialysis you ARE relying on the Government.  Unless you pay the $58K a month to the "Company" to get your supplies.

I rely on Medicare to pay DaVita so I can live 3 days at a time.  Fact Jack

[Rerun]

Ob... I guess I was just thinking if I were your wife living that way .... it would be against my will.  But you do pee on trees you told us.  So, I apologize to your wife.  Just say'in... I would not live like that. 

Please don't tell the Moderators!     

[MooseMom]

I'm expecting Bill to post here any moment now...

[MooseMom]

Rerun, obsidianom doesn't pee on trees.  C'mon!   

[Rerun]

Rerun, obsidianom doesn't pee on trees.  C'mon!   

Maybe I have the wrong person then?  I would have to look but some guy with fruit trees dumped the waste from his wife's dialisate on the fruit trees .... and they produced wonderfully.  And I joked about him peeing on his fruit trees.  If I run across it I'll PM you.

Okay.. I'm sorry OB... if you do not do that.

   

[MooseMom]

No, my mistake, Rerun.  Yes, Ob does dump the waste from his wife's dialysate on his "peech trees", but that's different from someone peeing on trees..  I thought you were being sarcastic when it now looks like you were just going along with a long-running joke.  My apologies! 

[Bill Peckham]

I am curious what entitles those over 65 to have Medicare, taking the money from younger people who on average have a net worth of around $3,600.00 dollars?  The average couple pays $500,000 into Medicare and receives $1,000,000 from Medicare(taxpayers)(Stanford Department of Economics) is that truly fair?  What entitles these people to have Medicare when they are wealthy enough to afford a home in Florida?  The vast majority of people over 65 have money to burn, why are they entitled to the money earned by a younger working individual?  Why should the youger generation be forced to pay the over 65 crowd's medical bills, Comrade?

Your numbers are way off - it would be hard to pay more than $130,000 lifetime into Medicare, whether you're a dual income couple or not. And average lifetime Medicare benefits are on the order of $200,000 -$250,000 per person or $400,000 to $500,000 per couple. (see attached charts, from the Urban Institute via politifact)

The reality of sub-saharan Africa is that people die of all sorts of treatable diseases every single day. People still die from dysentery, measles, bubonic plague, polio, HIV, and a whole litany of other diseases which are curable or treatable in our part of the world. Sure, you could spend, say, $100/month to treat 1 ESRD patient in some African country, but that same amount of money could inoculate 1,000 children against polio or measles. Or buy much needed medical supplies to just fight infections. It's simply a matter of best usage of limited resources, and in a country where the average lifespan barely reaches 40 years, ESRD treatments are way down on the list.

Alex C is right. There are many ways to alleviate more human misery than by providing dialysis, when people don't have access to drinking water providing dialysis can't be a priority.

I'm expecting Bill to post here any moment now...

 

[Rerun]

So... up above when he said to me "You don't know me" ... I thought to myself, yes I do he is the one who...... remembering his past posts.

Obviously a long running joke only to me.   

[Rerun]

Well since this became politicized despite my not wanting that , I have to answer as i started this thread.

Now ReRUN you called me and people who want to help bleeding hearts. Thats pretty funny. You obviously know NOTHING about me. Let me clarify the truth .

I live with my wife alone deep in the woods in the northeast.  I grow my own fruit on an orchard I cleared myself BY HAND with no help. I planted the trees, take care of them and do all the work myself. (19 trees)  . We heat our house with wood. I cut down the trees on our land myself, cut them up , bring them in with a wheelbarrow from the deep woods, stack them and split them BY HAND with a 16 pound maul. We are self sufficient for heat completely. Can you say that? I do this at age 60plus with my damaged body from cancer and while taking care of my wife . No one helps me take care of her. I do it myself.
Both my wife and i qualified for disability years ago with all our medical troubles. (she hasnt eaten in 7 years , using a feeding tube at night for food and water) (and dialyis at home).  Neither one of us applied or took disability. Instead we continue to eek out a living working together in our office part time . She is my only employee. I do all my own cleaning and prepping for my patients with NO help at all, including for surgery in the office. We refused to take a penny from the government despite our circumstances. Yes we are in debt, but never applied for any help or went bankrupt. We still pay all our bills . We are hard nosed self sufficient Yankees. (New Englanders). Even during my cancer treatment (chemo radiation and surgery) I never stopped working part time.
I can go on and on about how we are self sufficient and dont ask the government for anything.

If I am then I am proud to be one just as i am proud to be self sufficient . Can you say the same??

So how do you pay for your wife's dialysis?  Medicare pays for mine.  So I guess I'm reliant on the government.  I'm glad you are not.  Please tell us?  Will DaVita take small payments?

[Riki]

Obsid...  Yes, you are the one who pees on the trees.  Holding your wife hostage out in the woods.  Give all you want to others.  Just how low do you go before you keep for yourself.  I don't think I'm selfish.  I can pray for those people.  I will start doing that.  On 60 minutes this ship goes around Africa and treats people doing like 400 cataract surgeries a week.  I could not get an eye surgeon to touch me.  I guess if I moved to Africa they would do it for free.  I finally got my eye surgery and doing well.  Geez!

I think your thoughts are well and good.  Now let's see you act.  You can send food or you can teach how to plant food.  We have been trying for decades to teach.  Now, we are importing food and our farms are dying.  I don't know .... maybe that is progress.

I worked for 20 years so I do pay for my heat.  And don't leave wood smoke pollution.  Medicare is going broke!  It should be for those over 65 period!  None if us dialysis, transplant people under 65 should be on it.  Political or not we CAN talk the truth on this site.  I did not know "bleeding heart" was a politically charged word.  I'm sorry if I hurt anybodies wittle feewings!

I found this post offensive, and it wasn't even directed at me.  Rerun, as a moderator, you're supposed to be an example.  You should know better than to be so incredibly condescending.. especially with the "wittle feewings" comment

[frankswife]

Can we move this to the political debate section so we can continue? I am finding it highly illuminating!

[obsidianom]

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[obsidianom]

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[obsidianom]

I pulled all my posts on this subject. I never intended my simple musings to become a political argument.  What occurred was exactly why I avoid the political areas here. It got into personal attacks . I have no interest in that.
I am involved in another site with different interests and one rule they have is NO PERSONAL ATTACKS ALLOWED. The moderaters will take those posts out and stop it immediatly . I dont see that occurring here unfortunatly. Its too bad as persoanal attacks are counter productive.  We are all dealing with a common enemy, kidney disease /dialysis  and should be trying to get along .
I came here to give support , offer medical info from my 25 years of medical -surgical  practice and 2 years of dialysis involvement, and perhasps get some support and even learn myself.   I give my time here to try to help out anyone I can and bring info I glean from my medical reading . Many of the articles I bring here are freshly published, cutting edge. I will continue to do this.  I will discuss medical facts and even argue them as long as there is no personal attacking. But I will not argue politics . Please respect that.
This site has 2 doctors giving their time.  Hemodoc(Peter) is far more experienced in dialysis than I am. I have some dialysis experience and am gaining more all the time. I do have a 25 years of doing surgeries and wound care and treating diabetics. So I can be of use here also. Take advantage of that. Ask anything you wish about medicine and I will try to answer the best I can. If I dont know immediatly I will try to find answers if I can. That is my way of giving back.
Hemodoc does venture into the political areas. He is probably tougher than I am. I dont go there and never will .  If I post something that is inadvertantly controversial and ever sets off this kind of debate again I will pull it immediatly. My life is too busy and stressful to waste arguing . I want to enjoy my time here, not hate it. And frankly the last day or 2 of this thread made me not want to be here.

[Rerun]

Ok enough said.

I'm here to help dialysis people too, and to tell the truth and if I see fit, to hammer someone, which I do.  Epoman and I were a lot alike and it was His website and if he were still alive this site would be run more crazy then it is now.  Pretty tame compaired to when he was running it.  I seem to be the only one left who just shoots straight. My deal with the Admins is I get to be myself or I won't be a Moderator.  I was the first Mod that Epoman picked and I realize it was only because Life On Hold (my dear friend) died so I was the only one interested.  This was when we had maybe 200 members. 

I have 28 years of experience with dialysis, transplantation, fistulas, PD, catheters, surgeries, healing, needles, etc., so I'm qualified.  I have a degree in Advertising and business.  And I worked for USDA (FED Govt) for 20 years..... all while dealing with ESRD. 

I'm not trying to match arrogance; but just to not feel beneath. 

This thread started with someone wanting to give machines to Africa which just didn't sit quite straight with me and I said so which is legal with this site.  If I offended someone I'm sorry, but that is what I do.  Plus it builds the post count.... cha ching!  That is my job too.

   

[MaryD]

I have 28 years of experience with dialysis, transplantation, fistulas, PD, catheters, surgeries, healing, needles, etc., so I'm qualified.  I have a degree in Advertising and business.  And I worked for USDA (FED Govt) for 20 years..... all while dealing with ESRD. 

A little tact, too, would go a long way.  I thought your post was offensive.