First Amendment Under Attack

[Hemodoc]

I've gone back and read quite a few past and more recent articles about Sweet Cakes, and in none of the statements by the owners have they said anything at all about their religious beliefs including "GO AND SIN NO MORE."  When they explain just what their religious beliefs are, they state that they are not against gays but are, rather, against same sex marriage...that marriage should be between a man and a woman.  The owner, Aaron Klein, stated that he believed that a man should leave his mother and father and cling to his wife.  No where is he quoted as explaining that the message he was trying to convey to this same sex couple was, in fact, "Go and sin no more."  He further explained that he did not want his kids to see him backing down from his religious beliefs, which, again, doesn't really seem to include the "Go and sin no more" entreaty.  He acted pridefully.

This may be a small quibble, but the same sex couple in question were lesbian, and I am not sure that the Bible addresses lesbian relationships.  The Bible is pretty much all about men, and while a certain passage may forbid a man from laying with a man as he may with a woman, it doesn't seem to place any such restrictions on women.  So if one takes the Bible literally, lesbians get a pass...and should get a cake.

I have to wonder if the bakery owners care that, in their exertion of their religious freedom, made someone feel bad.  Is there such a thing as "justified unkindness"?

Dear Moosemom,

Your views of the Bible are not in line at all with what the Bible teaches.

1) Aaron Klein pointed out that, like the majority of practicing Christians, he and Melissa hold no animosity toward homosexuals. He told Fox News that their refusal boils down to their faith in God. “I believe marriage is between a man and a woman,” he said. “I don’t want to help somebody celebrate a commitment to a lifetime of sin.”

http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/faith-and-morals/item/16469-oregon-bakery-closes-over-owners-refusal-to-serve-gay-wedding

Yes, you are in part correct that they never used the words that I did, but in fact, the sentiment is the same. They serve gays and others, but participating in a gay wedding is a form of endorsement of that practice. Refusing to participate is in line with go and sin no more. They expressed it as: “I don’t want to help somebody celebrate a commitment to a lifetime of sin.”

Is it more kind to say nothing giving tacit support to the gay marriage and then watch as God judges those people at a later time? Is that a kind act? No, the kind act is to warn all that there is a judgement day.

2) Lesbians in the Bible. Well, actually yes, they are mentioned. Here is one passage:

Romans 1:22     Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23     And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24     Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25     Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26     For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Not sure where you are learning about the Bible, but NO ONE gets a pass as you say, we shall all give account for everything we have done in our bodies, whether good or bad.

Once again, this is a thread on the loss of first amendment rights, not on Bible doctrines. Funny how all these threads turn into a diatribe against the Bible.

[MooseMom]

I do not agree that "the sentiment is the same."  You put words into Mr. Klein's mouth.  While I understand YOUR motivations, I think you are overvaluing HIS.  I do not think he had any purpose at all in trying to teach that couple to "go and sin no more".  Again, this was all about HIS moral righteousness and HIS desire to portray a certain image to his children.  It was all about HIM.  So no, I do NOT think the sentiment is the same because he proclaimed an entirely different one, based in his pride on how well he perceives he is following the word of God.

Mine is not a diatribe against the Bible, rather, it is one against those who use the word of God to cloak unkindness.  If you want to call this practice "asserting first amendment rights", then so be it.  They got to have their say, and so did their previous customers.  The place is now closed because people didn't want to give their business to Sweet Cakes any more.  The public asserted their first amendment rights with their feet and with their wallets.

[Hemodoc]

I do not agree that "the sentiment is the same."  You put words into Mr. Klein's mouth.  While I understand YOUR motivations, I think you are overvaluing HIS.  I do not think he had any purpose at all in trying to teach that couple to "go and sin no more".  Again, this was all about HIS moral righteousness and HIS desire to portray a certain image to his children.  It was all about HIM.  So no, I do NOT think the sentiment is the same because he proclaimed an entirely different one, based in his pride on how well he perceives he is following the word of God.

Mine is not a diatribe against the Bible, rather, it is one against those who use the word of God to cloak unkindness.  If you want to call this practice "asserting first amendment rights", then so be it.  They got to have their say, and so did their previous customers.  The place is now closed because people didn't want to give their business to Sweet Cakes any more.  The public asserted their first amendment rights with their feet and with their wallets.

Moosemom, you seem ready to castigate folks that simply believe participating in a gay marriage is wrong, and you do so in a very strong manner. Why so angry Moosemom? Yes, it is a diatribe against the Bible in that you are always questioning it over and over and over again.

In any case, this is a first amendment rights issue.

The fact that the place is closed is not just because folks asserted their first amendment rights, it was on the threat of boycotting other businesses that did business with them as well. All this in a state where gay marriage is not even legalized. Go figure.

The LGBT protestors then turned on other wedding vendors around the community. They threatened to boycott any florists, wedding planners or other vendors that did business with Sweet Cakes By Melissa.

“That tipped the scales,” Klein said. “The LGBT activists inundated them with phone calls and threatened them. They would tell our vendors, ‘If you don’t stop doing business with Sweet Cakes By Melissa, we will shut you down.’”

Here is one more quote from the Kleins on why they didn't participate:

The Bible tells us to flee from sin,” she said. “I don’t think making a cake for it helps.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/09/03/todd-american-dispatch-christian-bakery-closes-after-lgbt-threats-protests/#ixzz2f5cnFtkQ

Yes, you are quite wrong that the sentiment involved is not exactly the same as go and sin no more.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/09/03/todd-american-dispatch-christian-bakery-closes-after-lgbt-threats-protests/#ixzz2f5ccZZWQ

[willowtreewren]

I'm not sure I would be comfortable with everyone using  WWJD as their ethical compass as Jesus did and said some pretty reprehensible things.

On the other hand, this guy has a refreshing take on the question that seems to reflect the gist of Monrien's comments about judging others. http://johnshore.com/2013/05/07/wwjd-if-invited-to-a-gay-wedding/

[Hemodoc]

I'm not sure I would be comfortable with everyone using  WWJD as their ethical compass as Jesus did and said some pretty reprehensible things.

On the other hand, this guy has a refreshing take on the question that seems to reflect the gist of Monrien's comments about judging others. http://johnshore.com/2013/05/07/wwjd-if-invited-to-a-gay-wedding/

Wow, Jesus did some pretty reprehensible things?

I have heard lots of folks attack Jesus on many different levels, but you take it to a level that I have never heard. Did you not know that when they brought Jesus before the Jews in his trials, that no one could truthfully accuse Him of ANY sin whatsoever and they had to send someone with false accusations to bring Him before the Sanhedrin?

In any case, believe as you wish and please feel free to take up all of the Lord's alleged reprehensible actions when you stand before Him. But on that day, it won't be you accusing the Lord of anything I am afraid, quite the opposite.

[MooseMom]

I don't doubt for a minute that the Kleins got all kinds of horrible emails and facebook rants.  This is the way Americans communicate these days, with hostile diatribes and juvenile name calling and unveiled threats.  It's too bad that the Kleins were faced with that, and I wish this were a kinder and gentler nation, but that's the way of social media nowadays.  I've read all of the articles you've provided links to, but I've also read the comments that follow, and they are decidedly un-Christian, not to mention "militant".

If God approves of the Kleins, I'm sure He will reward them. 

[Hemodoc]

Where is the proof of all of these supposed threats?  Where are the facebook postings or phone messages or any other concrete evidence of threats from "militant" LGBT people?  Were the police contacted?  Did Fox News exercise due diligence?  It sounds to me like the Kleins are just saying a lot of stuff to Fox News, and Fox News is reporting it without doing any research.  Has any news organization actually heard recording of these threats?  Or is everyone just going to their word?

Yes, yes, yes, of course, the Kleins are liars as well. Where have I heard that accusation before?

[willowtreewren]

Sigh, I just lost another reply and this is rather wearing on my post-op body, so I'll make it brief.

In Matthew Jesus advocates lying. I'm not sure I can agree with that. He also admits to breaking the sabbath. I don't find that reprehensible, but it does give grounds for claiming that he sinned. I had compiled many more instances in the lost post, but my energy is not up to recreating that....

In any case, believe as you wish and please feel free to take up all of the Lord's alleged reprehensible actions when you stand before Him. But on that day, it won't be you accusing the Lord of anything I am afraid, quite the opposite.

Thank you. I will believe as I wish and sincerely hope that you will feel free to believe as you wish. The difference is, though, that my belief does not include a vengeful god who would sentence me and other guiltless people to an eternity of torture simply for not believing in him. That, to me, IS reprehensible. I thought your god was supposed to be a god of love, not a god of fear. So, I guess in some ways I consider myself nicer than your god.

I consider myself nicer than your god because I don't think it is kind to discriminate against others for their sexual orientation, or their religion, or their color, or their nationality, or their intelligence, or their stature, or for what ever reason some people find to discriminate.

I also don't veil my wishes for you to hold true with your beliefs with scare tactics. In no way do I try to send the message that if you choose a belief different from mine you will "live" to regret it. That borders on bullying and I don't consider that an altogether nice way to treat others. I have noticed that it IS rather accepted as a way to communicate with those who disagree with Christian beliefs. Oddly, my Christian friends often tell me that I am a better "Christian" than they are. I don't know what to make of that since I am in no way a Christian and think Jesus, if a true individual, was in no way divine. But I am a Humanist, which means that I try to be kind and do good works. I want to leave the world a better place than it was when I entered it.

You seem hold Humanism in disdain, viewing it as a movement that wants to eradicate religion. That is a false assumption. Humanism does hope to remove religion from government, though.

[MooseMom]

Where is the proof of all of these supposed threats?  Where are the facebook postings or phone messages or any other concrete evidence of threats from "militant" LGBT people?  Were the police contacted?  Did Fox News exercise due diligence?  It sounds to me like the Kleins are just saying a lot of stuff to Fox News, and Fox News is reporting it without doing any research.  Has any news organization actually heard recording of these threats?  Or is everyone just going to their word?

Yes, yes, yes, of course, the Kleins are liars as well. Where have I heard that accusation before?

Well, as you see, I deleted that post because I DO believe they received threats, actually, as I noted in my edited post.

But I've been wondering why Christians who supported their business practices didn't come to their aid with their support.  And where were the Christians who supported the Klein's vendors?  Surely gay couples are not the most profitable of these people's customers.  Why didn't Christians go all Chick-fil-A?  I just find it very hard to believe that same-sex couples really have so much economic power that they can effectively shut down all businesses that supply Christian bakeries.  I think there are more people at work here than just "LGBT militants".  I suspect that most Americans find discrimination tarted up as "religious freedom" to be disingenuous, and THAT's the real reason behind the Klein's business difficulties.

[Hemodoc]

Sigh, I just lost another reply and this is rather wearing on my post-op body, so I'll make it brief.

In Matthew Jesus advocates lying. I'm not sure I can agree with that. He also admits to breaking the sabbath. I don't find that reprehensible, but it does give grounds for claiming that he sinned. I had compiled many more instances in the lost post, but my energy is not up to recreating that....

In any case, believe as you wish and please feel free to take up all of the Lord's alleged reprehensible actions when you stand before Him. But on that day, it won't be you accusing the Lord of anything I am afraid, quite the opposite.

Thank you. I will believe as I wish and sincerely hope that you will feel free to believe as you wish. The difference is, though, that my belief does not include a vengeful god who would sentence me and other guiltless people to an eternity of torture simply for not believing in him. That, to me, IS reprehensible. I thought your god was supposed to be a god of love, not a god of fear. So, I guess in some ways I consider myself nicer than your god.

I consider myself nicer than your god because I don't think it is kind to discriminate against others for their sexual orientation, or their religion, or their color, or their nationality, or their intelligence, or their stature, or for what ever reason some people find to discriminate.

I also don't veil my wishes for you to hold true with your beliefs with scare tactics. In no way do I try to send the message that if you choose a belief different from mine you will "live" to regret it. That borders on bullying and I don't consider that an altogether nice way to treat others. I have noticed that it IS rather accepted as a way to communicate with those who disagree with Christian beliefs. Oddly, my Christian friends often tell me that I am a better "Christian" than they are. I don't know what to make of that since I am in no way a Christian and think Jesus, if a true individual, was in no way divine. But I am a Humanist, which means that I try to be kind and do good works. I want to leave the world a better place than it was when I entered it.

You seem hold Humanism in disdain, viewing it as a movement that wants to eradicate religion. That is a false assumption. Humanism does hope to remove religion from government, though.

In the sermon on the mount, the Lord stated, let your yes be a yes and your no a no. I have no idea what you believe Jesus stated to advocate lying.

As far as the Sabbath. The only "law" that Jesus broke were man made laws added to the Sabbath.  He showed the Pharisees who confronted Him on this issue the true spirit of the Sabbath.

No, no sins on what He did more than once on the Sabbath.

Lastly, I have no doubt that the God of the Bible will judge all. Yes, He is a God of love, He sent His son, but He is also a God of justice, He sent His son. One act demonstrated His love and His justice. I would continue to reconsider your views on just who God is, but you are certainly free to believe as you wish. After all, for love to be real, you must have the right to choose.

[Hemodoc]

Where is the proof of all of these supposed threats?  Where are the facebook postings or phone messages or any other concrete evidence of threats from "militant" LGBT people?  Were the police contacted?  Did Fox News exercise due diligence?  It sounds to me like the Kleins are just saying a lot of stuff to Fox News, and Fox News is reporting it without doing any research.  Has any news organization actually heard recording of these threats?  Or is everyone just going to their word?

Yes, yes, yes, of course, the Kleins are liars as well. Where have I heard that accusation before?

Well, as you see, I deleted that post because I DO believe they received threats, actually, as I noted in my edited post.

But I've been wondering why Christians who supported their business practices didn't come to their aid with their support.  And where were the Christians who supported the Klein's vendors?  Surely gay couples are not the most profitable of these people's customers.  Why didn't Christians go all Chick-fil-A?  I just find it very hard to believe that same-sex couples really have so much economic power that they can effectively shut down all businesses that supply Christian bakeries.  I think there are more people at work here than just "LGBT militants".  I suspect that most Americans find discrimination tarted up as "religious freedom" to be disingenuous, and THAT's the real reason behind the Klein's business difficulties.

You are underestimating the effects of decades of the Humanist movement and other influences on the US population where gay rights especially among the young is considered a civil right. There were many that did support them, however, the attack against these people succeeded by threatening action against other businesses that were a major referral source for them.  In addition, the Chick Fil A incident had a national broadcaster helping to arrange a day of protest in support of them. The OR bakers had their issues over several months which finally made the business no longer viable. I find that no surprise given the changing values of the US population.

[willowtreewren]

I find that no surprise given the changing values of the US population.

Then good for the population of the US. They seem to be more tolerant than the god of the Bible.

[Hemodoc]

I find that no surprise given the changing values of the US population.

Then good for the population of the US. They seem to be more tolerant than the god of the Bible.

Yes, we now are in full agreement throughout most of the sectors of our nation with the people who were in Sodom and Gomorrah. That didn't turn out well for them, it won't for us either.  Your arguments are all predicated on the assumption that God is not real. How will you respond when you face Him yourself? Demand answers from Him? Accuse Him of being unjust? Sadly, that will not be a good day for a growing number of people who reject His holy word.

[Dman73]

This affirms that we are never going to get along, wars will never end, peace is unobtainable.

[Hemodoc]

Catholic priests were threatened with arrest if they gave their time and volunteered to offer mass on military posts. Many in the military do not consider religious services unessential. Looks like Obama does. I wonder if he also did the same to the Islamic services as well?  Looks like the House just voted to force them to re-open the services.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/10/04/catholic-priests-in-military-face-arrest-for-celebrating-mass/?intcmp=latestnews

[Jean]

And that, Hemodoc is the absolute pits. What a horrible and mean spirited government we have in office now. Pray hard, our country needs it.

[Hemodoc]

The US military is at it again by labeling a Christian organization as a hate group that the soldiers must not associate with.

Several dozen U.S. Army active duty and reserve troops were told last week that the American Family Association, a well-respected Christian ministry, should be classified as a domestic hate group because the group advocates for traditional family values.

The briefing was held at Camp Shelby in Mississippi and listed the AFA alongside domestic hate groups like the Ku Klux Klan, Neo-Nazis, the Black Panthers and the Nation of Islam.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/10/14/us-army-defines-christian-ministry-as-domestic-hate-group/?intcmp=latestnews&intcmp=latestnews

[Hemodoc]

Well, it didn't take long for gay rights to trump religious liberty in Colorado. Bakers in Denver ordered by judge to bake wedding cakes for gay couples. How long before they are ordering churches to perform gay marriages?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/12/06/judge-orders-baker-to-serve-gay-couples-despite-his-religious-beliefs/

[Hober Mallow]

Your arguments are all predicated on the assumption that God is not real. How will you respond when you face Him yourself? Demand answers from Him? Accuse Him of being unjust? Sadly, that will not be a good day for a growing number of people who reject His holy word.

Your argument is predicated on the assumption that God is literally historically real. God is a symbol for a mystery which transcends all human thought. Concretizing God as a personality or a father figure closes you off from that transcendent mystery and you're merely stuck with the symbol, as Job found out for himself when his experience of God was entirely at odds with his own projected image of God. My concretizing God as an old man in the clouds, one misses the entire point of religion, which is not supposed to be history or science. Religion is supposed to psychologically break one past the diversity of the world to the imminent unity within.

Most people who call themselves religious are at the point Job was at the beginning of his story, stuck with an image of God he simply couldn't reconcile with his own experience.

[Hemodoc]

Your arguments are all predicated on the assumption that God is not real. How will you respond when you face Him yourself? Demand answers from Him? Accuse Him of being unjust? Sadly, that will not be a good day for a growing number of people who reject His holy word.

Your argument is predicated on the assumption that God is literally historically real. God is a symbol for a mystery which transcends all human thought. Concretizing God as a personality or a father figure closes you off from that transcendent mystery and you're merely stuck with the symbol, as Job found out for himself when his experience of God was entirely at odds with his own projected image of God. My concretizing God as an old man in the clouds, one misses the entire point of religion, which is not supposed to be history or science. Religion is supposed to psychologically break one past the diversity of the world to the imminent unity within.

Most people who call themselves religious are at the point Job was at the beginning of his story, stuck with an image of God he simply couldn't reconcile with his own experience.

Hmmm, once again, not much I can debate with you to convince you of what the Bible really is all about, but just a strong disagreement with your private interpretation of all these things. Your experience is not at all what I have experienced. Have a great day.

[G.Lively]

1st Amendment rights.  Yep!  I have something to say . . . . . Damn, I forgot what it was I wanted to say.

[Rerun]

God is real.  Every knee shall bow....at some point we will know the truth.  We don't get out of Judgment.

[Jean]

That is the bottom line Rerun. On that day we will all be judged. I don't know about you, but I pray daily for forgiveness. I want to go and be with God when I die, not in the pit of fire.

[G.Lively]

Although I was raised and schooled to be a Catholic, further study of the Bible revealed conflicts, controversy, and some hypocrisy. My own genealogy website shows that one of the three principal translators of the KJB was Edward Lively.  He translated Greek and Hebrew manuscript versions of the KJB.  He said, “Interpretations can alter meaning”.  Catholicism teaches that the Bible is the “word of God”. This cannot be.  Men have reinterpreted the Bible many times. That is the reason we have so many religions that call themselves Christians. Yes, men wrote the Bible.  At the two Councils of Nicaea, so-called church officials selected the gospels in the New Testament from over 200 differing versions.  Those testaments were nothing more than teaching lessons.
Further, the God in the Old Testament is a grumbling, vindictive, coercive God, and has no qualms about slaughtering human beings.  Not so in the New Testament. One must ask, what accounts for the difference in the description of a God in the two Testaments?  The answer; Men.
The continuing argument about homosexuals and same sex marriage is almost beside the point.  Pope Francis recently developed a consistency of biblical interpretation on this matter when he said, “Who are we to judge?”  That’s like saying, mind your own damn business.  I’ll go with that. What could possibly be wrong with “treat others as you would have them treat you?” 
Anyone’s salvation, assuming there is a Heaven and Hell, is a very personal concept.  Individuals engaged in same sex marriage or even homosexual sex, may be repulsive to you, but it is not your business to judge.  Live and let live.  Let the Bible be your guide to living.  Taking the Bible literally is a path filled with pitfalls.

Gerald Lively

[monrein]

Thanks Gerald for articulating much of how I feel about things.  I have great respect for those who choose to live in particular ways according to their belief that they will eventually face judgment  but I struggle mightily and am driven crazy by those who feel that the judging is somehow within their realm.  If we are indeed to be judged at the end it will surely be in our favour to have treated all  with kindness, including those with whom we disagree.