Traditional America

[Rerun]

I've taken the notary class and you can end up in jail of you notarize something without looking at the identifications or actually know the person presenting paperwork.  So take it seriously.

Good, it actually makes me feel better that Marriage is no big deal, just a legal contract.  The gay ladies that moved in across from me won't be signing a contract because the one packed up and left.  They were domestic partners and signed on the house together.  Hmmm

[Willis]

I'm going strictly from memory, but if I remember correctly the idea of licensing marriages was a very late development and not a requirement in some states as late as the 1930s. The trend to license marriages had begun here and in England in colonial times in a few jurisdictions and it was always more of a taxation scheme than a cultural move. The real momentum for marriage licensing began after the post-Civil War Reconstruction Era as part of the many miscegenation laws passed to prevent "mixing of the races." Though that original purpose is long gone, no governmental agency is going to be willing to give up the income they derive from marriage licensing no matter how insignificant. Rather, they see same-sex marriages as a way of increasing the tax base incrementally. (Yes, I'm a cynic when it comes to government bureaucracies!)

Personally, I'd say do away with marriage licensing altogether and simply devise a system of civil union contracts that would allow ANY combination of adults to form a "family" for legal purposes. I do believe that marriage is between one man and one woman and anything else is not really marriage. But that is a religious point-of-view and men and women who want to get married can do so in whatever religious institution they wish without the need for government sanction.

 

[MooseMom]

Good, it actually makes me feel better that Marriage is no big deal, just a legal contract.  The gay ladies that moved in across from me won't be signing a contract because the one packed up and left.  They were domestic partners and signed on the house together.  Hmmm

I've never said that marriage is no big deal.  Actually, I believe it is a VERY big deal and is a very desireable societal institution.  THAT's why even gay people WANT to get married!  Marriage is important to them, too, you see.  There are plenty of heterosexual couples that don't bother getting married but still get into financial and legal trouble when they separate.  But at least THEY get the option to marry.  To THEM, marriage is no big deal.  The same can't be said for same-sex couples that WANT to marry.

[Hober Mallow]

Good, it actually makes me feel better that Marriage is no big deal, just a legal contract.

It's as big or small a deal as you make it. How big a deal it is has to do with the singular unique experience you and your spouse share, not the view of the supporting social institution which exists outside the union and is entirely secondary. And what others do doesn't "redefine" that singular experience. If the love of a couple is entirely dependent upon the shape of the social structure out of which the marriage was ritually recognized, then that love wasn't really all that strong in the first place.

[jbeany]

I've taken the notary class and you can end up in jail of you notarize something without looking at the identifications or actually know the person presenting paperwork.  So take it seriously.

Good, it actually makes me feel better that Marriage is no big deal, just a legal contract.  The gay ladies that moved in across from me won't be signing a contract because the one packed up and left.  They were domestic partners and signed on the house together.  Hmmm

I do check id's and sigs, and know what I'm signing.  I'm working with lawyers - it makes me overly cautious about lawsuits. 

The point I'm trying to make is that the marriage the religious right are fighting against is really only a legal contract.  No one is forcing them or their churches to perform any particular kind of marriage under their steeples.

[Hemodoc]

I feel traditional America means going to church and respecting what God put into place.  The change of "up yours" started in the 60's and I am fine with equal rights for all but Marriage is between one man and one woman.  Not one man and 3 woman, not one man and his cousin, and not same sex marriage.  WA passed same sex marriage and I'm just heartsick.

That's freedom. People are supposed to be free to live as they like. There are countries which don't value freedom at all which enforce religious ideology. I'll take freedom over that option.

Sadly, we are moving from Leave it to Beaver going onto Sodom and Gomorrah just as the Bible stated it would 2000 years ago.

America was never like Leave it to Beaver. That time in 50s that some look back on with nostalgia as an innocent time never actually existed. It certainly wasn't a better time for any minorities or women.

That which is good will be called bad and God will no longer be at the heart of this nation.

Part of living in a free country is accepting that everyone gets to make your own decisions about how they live. You may consider certain behaviors "bad," but we don't legislate morality.

Both Republicans and Democrats try to legislate morality. Liberals, for example, have in various states pushed through smoking bans. Yes, smoking is bad, but why should the government tell me what I can and can't do? Second hand smoke? No problem, I can exercise my freedom and stay away from smoking establishments like restaurants and stay away from people who smoke.

Freedom actually works.

But this was exactly what slaveowners were saying after the Civil War.  Those people claimed that God intended that black people not have a soul.

Not only that, but the Bible sanctions slavery.

Actually Hober, conservative American politics in many ways is based upon Judeo-Christian ethics. The fact that 51% of folks rejected a conservative administration in many ways is the same old story of man rebelling against God's laws since the garden of Eden.

You are certainly free to have your own opinions about what God is or isn't, but God Himself does not change. So be it, the hours of darkness are rapidly approaching this nation and this world and the most important comforts for me is God's unchanging nature. Simply because you and others have an opinion about how God should or shouldn't act in no matter affects His eternal, unchanging nature. But you will have the opportunity to stand before Him in person and make your complaints against him at your liking. I wish you luck on that day.

[MooseMom]

Actually Hober, conservative American politics in many ways is based upon Judeo-Christian ethics. The fact that 51% of folks rejected a conservative administration in many ways is the same old story of man rebelling against God's laws since the garden of Eden.

Hemodoc, you know that I've always respected you and your opinions, even when I might not agree with you, but to say that to "reject a conservative administration" is to rebel against God's laws is shocking.  Such a sweeping characterization of 51% of the American electorate is indefensible.  Liberal American politics, it can be argued, in many ways is based upon Judeo-Christian ethics, too, such as the desire to help people in need, to feed the hungry and lift up the downtrodden.  I don't see a lot in the Bible about, say, the right to carry or "self-deportation".

(BTW, how have you been?  I regularly check your blog for new entries, and I haven't seen any for a month or so.  Are you doing OK these days?)

[Hemodoc]

Actually Hober, conservative American politics in many ways is based upon Judeo-Christian ethics. The fact that 51% of folks rejected a conservative administration in many ways is the same old story of man rebelling against God's laws since the garden of Eden.

Hemodoc, you know that I've always respected you and your opinions, even when I might not agree with you, but to say that to "reject a conservative administration" is to rebel against God's laws is shocking.  Such a sweeping characterization of 51% of the American electorate is indefensible.  Liberal American politics, it can be argued, in many ways is based upon Judeo-Christian ethics, too, such as the desire to help people in need, to feed the hungry and lift up the downtrodden.  I don't see a lot in the Bible about, say, the right to carry or "self-deportation".

(BTW, how have you been?  I regularly check your blog for new entries, and I haven't seen any for a month or so.  Are you doing OK these days?)

Dear Moosemom,

I will simply agree to disagree. Liberal politics are NOT based on Judeo-Christian roots. That is patently false.

Here is a short summary from Wiki on the association of conservative American politics and the Judeo-Christian ethics. What you are failing to acknowledge is that there is a huge ideological gulf in America today.

Political conservatives

By the 1950s American conservatives were emphasizing the Judeo-Christian roots of their values.[21] As economist Elgin Groseclose explained in 1958, it was ideas "drawn from Judeo-Christian Scriptures that have made possible the economic strength and industrial power of this country."[22] Senator Barry Goldwater noted that Conservatives "believed the communist projection of man as a producing, consuming animal to be used and discarded was antithetical to all the Judeo-Christian understandings which are the foundations upon which the Republic stands."[23] Ronald Reagan frequently emphasized Judeo-Christian values as necessary ingredients in the fight against Communism. He argued that the Bible contains "all the answers to the problems that face us."[24] Belief in the superiority of Western Judeo-Christian traditions led Conservatives to downplay the aspirations of the non-Capitalist Third World to free themselves from colonial rule and to repudiate the value of foreign aid.[25][26]
The emergence of the "Christian right" as a political force and part of the Conservative coalition dates from the 1970s. As Wilcox and Robinson conclude:

The Christian Right is an attempt to restore Judeo-Christian values to a country that is in deep moral decline. …[They] believe that society suffers from the lack of a firm basis of Judeo-Christian values and they seek to write laws that embody those values.[27]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian

At this point, you folks won, go govern, rule and do your thing. You have the power in your hand to do what has been promised, although I don't recall much as far as promises for a new Obama administration, just trying to destroy a rationale, conservative approach to our financial difficulties.  The ball is in your court, you folks go and solve what 51% of the American electorate rejected. Sadly, they rejected the only way out of this mess. That being said, instead of continuing attacks against conservative politics, go and govern, it is your game, your outcome at your own hand. Please, go solve our problems with the liberal approach.

[lunadatura]

A college professor of mine wrote a book called "the way we never were" which basically says that we have had this ideal about america circa the 1950s as being a kinder, gentler, more family centric and wealthier time. But as someone else pointed out just beineath that well polished veneer was domestic violence, pill popping mommies with mothers little helper, alcoholism, child abuse etc. Never mind how we treated minorities and women back in the day.

The 30 percent of americans that are white men of middle age or older that constituted 85 percent of romney's votes are running angry and scared. They used to run and own this country and could abuse women and minority what ever way they chose. Now its in some ways similar to the end of Aparthied in south Africa. The demographics have sihfited not in their favor. They will try to hang onto their privilege and they have the resources to attempt to do it so it will remain to be seen as to what actually happens in the next 4 years.

at least for now we have health care reform ready to be fully enacted in the next 14 months

[Hemodoc]

A college professor of mine wrote a book called "the way we never were" which basically says that we have had this ideal about america circa the 1950s as being a kinder, gentler, more family centric and wealthier time. But as someone else pointed out just beineath that well polished veneer was domestic violence, pill popping mommies with mothers little helper, alcoholism, child abuse etc. Never mind how we treated minorities and women back in the day.

The 30 percent of americans that are white men of middle age or older that constituted 85 percent of romney's votes are running angry and scared. They used to run and own this country and could abuse women and minority what ever way they chose. Now its in some ways similar to the end of Aparthied in south Africa. The demographics have sihfited not in their favor. They will try to hang onto their privilege and they have the resources to attempt to do it so it will remain to be seen as to what actually happens in the next 4 years.

at least for now we have health care reform ready to be fully enacted in the next 14 months

Sorry, that is a ridiculous and insulting and factually bereft, ignorant statement. I am a white male and I have NEVER ONCE abused any women at any time.   You folks are absurd. YOU WON THE ELECTION.  Get busy solving the problems, you own them now. I am not the least bit scared, I am quite secure thank you, but I am saddened.

I invite you to come back in four years and gloat once again after America has felt the full impact of Obama's regulations and laws. Today, I paid $373.00 to put my snow tires on my truck. They were already mounted and really all it was was a tire rotation. But due to a new Obama regulation, I had to install tire pressure sensors that by themselves was over $270.00. Sorry, I know how to check my own tire pressure without a government regulation making it mandatory. Just one more regulation in the face of many more to come that will cost us more and more money with what benefit? I check my tires on a regular basis, Obama doesn't help me do what I already do myself.

Yes, yes, yes, sore winners you are indeed, but time is on our side. Our best friend for 2016 is the full impact of Obama on this nation in the next four years. That is, what ever will be left of it in four years. So please, take your moment and gloat all you want, but seriously, I am not angry nor am I scared. I am quite sad knowing where we are heading. Good luck folks, you own this country for the next four years. Let's see what you leave by 2016. I have very little hope that the hope and change going forward will produce the results you folks state it will. 

[MooseMom]

Hemodoc, I ask this with all good will and with a true heart.  I am worried about you.  Are you OK?

[Zach]

My friends at the Heritage Foundation recently put out this video:
http://heritageaction.com/

 

Nice video Zach.  So, Zach, tell us how Obama did during the Sandy disaster?   

Well, I got a tee shirt.
 

[Zach]

This is an interesting article written by the late William F. Buckley:

June 29, 2004, 12:07 p.m.

Free Weeds
The marijuana debate.

http://old.nationalreview.com/buckley/buckley200406291207.asp

[Hemodoc]

This is an interesting article written by the late William F. Buckley:

June 29, 2004, 12:07 p.m.

Free Weeds
The marijuana debate.

http://old.nationalreview.com/buckley/buckley200406291207.asp

Dear Zach,

Since I am opposed to any chemical dependencies in my personal life, I would not and will not vote for such a measure.  Sadly, Zach, what is the problem with having moral values and holding to them? If the nation wishes to go to pot, so be it, I cannot prevent such an issue, but I do and will oppose that myself. Because the majority of folks now wish to go in that direction, must I also go along and approve behavior I oppose? If that means the GOP dies out as a political group, so be it, I have a higher authority I report to and will give an account of everything I have done in my body whether good or bad. Our choices in this life do matter.

[Rerun]

Zach, tell us how Obama did in NY with Sandy.  Can't believe FOX news who keep showing people with still no power, or food or clean warm clothes.

[Ricksters]

I think that Bill O'Reilly's comment about "traditional" America refers to a U.S. where the vast majority of citizens had real values, and didn't look upon our government to solve  problems for us from cradle to grave.   I was watching a you tube video today from election day, where college students in South Boston were asked questions about who they were voting for and why, and how many congressman/senators we had, the amendments to the constitution, etc.  These young adults, and I use that term loosely, were absolutely ignorant!  I know I was self-centered at that age, but I was educated!  I understand why they want the government to look after them...they certainly can't do it themselves!  Just disgraceful!

Ricki

[jbeany]

I think that Bill O'Reilly's comment about "traditional" America refers to a U.S. where the vast majority of citizens had real values, and didn't look upon our government to solve  problems for us from cradle to grave.   I was watching a you tube video today from election day, where college students in South Boston were asked questions about who they were voting for and why, and how many congressman/senators we had, the amendments to the constitution, etc.  These young adults, and I use that term loosely, were absolutely ignorant!  I know I was self-centered at that age, but I was educated!  I understand why they want the government to look after them...they certainly can't do it themselves!  Just disgraceful!

Ricki

But if they had answered the questions correctly, would they have made it on the net?  Leno does the same thing, and has been focused on the elections and political things lately.  I doubt any of the people who knew the answers made it on TV.

And then there's the thought that if you think the next generation are idiots - you need to take a look at who raised them....

[Hemodoc]

I think that Bill O'Reilly's comment about "traditional" America refers to a U.S. where the vast majority of citizens had real values, and didn't look upon our government to solve  problems for us from cradle to grave.   I was watching a you tube video today from election day, where college students in South Boston were asked questions about who they were voting for and why, and how many congressman/senators we had, the amendments to the constitution, etc.  These young adults, and I use that term loosely, were absolutely ignorant!  I know I was self-centered at that age, but I was educated!  I understand why they want the government to look after them...they certainly can't do it themselves!  Just disgraceful!

Ricki

Well said Rickster. I ask my 16 yo grand son questions for which he has no clue about issues that he should. Their social media and public schools no longer teach what we were taught. I will take it one step further noting how my own children look to us even though they are in their 30's for so many things. I never expected to have my parents financially responsible for me my entire life. In such, I worked as hard as I could when I was in college to be able to provide for my own family. I have spoken with some of my friends who have the same experience. The lottery mentality and welfare mentality is widespread. Self reliance and standing on your own two feet truly are obsolete traditions here in the US any longer.

[cassandra]

I'm sorry Hemodoc, but what jbeany says is true. Those grandchildren, and students of 'today' are raised, and educated by the 'traditional' 50s generation.
And don't worry, that 'mentality' is spotted by a lot of the 'traditional' 50s generation in the developed world. I dare say that your own grandfather thought those same thoughts about the now 50s generation?

[KarenInWA]

I am at the end of my 30's, do not have a college degree, have ESRD that is currently being treated by a transplant, am a liberal daughter of very conservative parents. I have never depended on or asked my parents for any money, even when I was unemployed for a few months back in 2007. I now have a job where I make a very good wage, better than some out there who have college degrees. I have no credit card debt, own my car free and clear, and have only an upside-down mortgage to pay.

All that being said, if my company decides they don't want to pay my dept to be in WA anymore, and cut us all off or force us to move, I will be up a creek that looks muddy. Will that be my fault?? I will then be a non-degreed individual with ESRD that is currently being treated by a transplant that was injured during a biopsy, most likely permanently, which has left me with a creatinine of 3.3-3.6 and a GFR of 15. Was that my fault??? How do I go about being hired when I have that baggage to carry around? The job I have now is a union job, and with that union protection, and the support of my management team, I am able to work FT and they work with me on my schedule to let me go to needed dr and lab appts. My FMLA tapped out earlier this year due to the emergency surgery I had to have a few days after that biopsy. Thank God they were willing to work with me after I came back from being out for a month. I  had weekly dr appts, and for a while in Sept, I had twice-weekly appts at the Tx Center due to neutropenia. Thankfully, that has been resolved. 

My dept is unique in what it does for my company, and we have a Dept Manager who moved his life from RI to here in WA just to run our department. I know he has a lot at stake in keeping our department here in WA, and people in the company like him and listen to him. His goal is to work here  in our dept for the rest of his career until he retires, and he says he isn't retiring until he's 70! So, in his spirit, I look forward to continuing to work at my job, for my company for many years to come. It is a good job to have when having a condition like ESRD. I sit at a desk, and we're open long enough each day to where I can have a flexible schedule as needed for dr's appointments.

All that to say, if the horrible happens, yes, I need a system in place to help me. I've worked and payed into the system since the age of 18. I have consistently moved up in the kinds of jobs I've held. I am good at showing up on time, rarely call in, and stay for my entire shift. I am a good employee, who happens to have the bad luck of having bum kidneys, and a transplanted kidney that was badly injured as a result of a biopsy. This is NOT my fault!!!

KarenInWA

[noahvale]

*

[Hemodoc]

I'm sorry Hemodoc, but what jbeany says is true. Those grandchildren, and students of 'today' are raised, and educated by the 'traditional' 50s generation.
And don't worry, that 'mentality' is spotted by a lot of the 'traditional' 50s generation in the developed world. I dare say that your own grandfather thought those same thoughts about the now 50s generation?

Actually, you are dismissing the entire cultural aspects of this generation starting with the public education system which is markedly different than when I went to school.

As far as my grandparents, I painted their entire house by myself when I was 19 during the summer. No, they appreciated the work I did for them free of charge and they encouraged hard work. I did no less with my own children. I also did the garden work for my aunt across the street more often than not simply accepting sauerbraten and hot popover rolls right out of the oven as my reward. She had a very large yard to mow that took about 45 minutes to finish. My aunt also loved the fish we caught and the occasional eel. We spear fished with mask and goggles with a poll and sharp tongs. Flounder is abundant on Cape Cod and the occasional eel. Once again, I have always worked hard and played hard. I am glad I didn't grow up instead with video games as the chief entertainment. It is a very different time in only one generation. I grew up in much the same fashion as my parents, my kids grew up in a totally different world.

I started working as a paper boy when I was 11 years old. My wife went to work at 11 as well as a live in housekeeper in the Philippines. Even today, hard work doesn't bother us at all. Truly, I have much more in common with my grandfather's and father's generation than I do with my kids. In general, there is a much different work ethic evident. Just the way it is. I see that with my own grand children and their friends at our church.

I took my grandson swimming in our pool with one of his friends a couple of months ago. They swam for about 5-10 minutes and then went and sat in the hot tub for about an hour. Since I had to be at the pool with my guests, I got tired of watching them sit in the hot tub and said let's go after one hour. Sorry, not the way we did it when we were kids. 10 mile bike rides or more were nothing at the same age. Chopping wood just for fun and other outdoor activities filled many of our days. We played hard as kids and that translated into working hard as adults. Sorry, I don't see that today in many of the kids I know. Just the way it is.

[Zach]

Zach, tell us how Obama did in NY with Sandy.  Can't believe FOX news who keep showing people with still no power, or food or clean warm clothes.

He did fine. He was able to fly away on Air Force One.

But many folks in NY & NJ are still having problems.
The beach communities in both states were the hardest hit.

Outside of our region, many people have forgotten about us and have moved on to the next story.

The NYTimes has and continues to cover the story:
http://www.nytimes.com/pages/nyregion/index.html

[Rerun]

Thanks Zach.  That is what I thought.  Fox had it right.

Cape Cod?  My father was born in 1919 and had to ride his horse to a one room school house 8 miles in 5 feet of snow or at least that is what he told us as we ran to the bus in rural Washington State.  I'll take the 60's.

When he was a boy he helped his father with a team of horses plant and harvest 180 acres of wheat in the rolling hills of the Palouse.  Sunrise to Sunset.... they also had a dairy.

We are all spoiled today and kids talk worse than ever before "F this and F that"  It is horrible .... and they Vote!

I learned to type on a manual typewriter and now kids just talk to their IPad.

That said we still need a balanced budget.  Obama says to tax the rich and Boehoner (sp) says to close loop holes of the special interest groups.  I say compromise and do both.

[Rerun]

Karen, I'm so sorry about the botched biopsy.  I'd be so pissed.  They can find a lot through blood work.  Don't ever let them do that again.  Geez!!

If you lose your job we can get married and I'll put you on my insurance.  Separate bedrooms.