Traditional America

[MooseMom]

I suspect that most of us have seen the clips of Bill O'Reilly saying that "It's not a traditional America anymore.  The white establishment is now a minority." 

I am not really sure what defines "traditional America" as this is, and always has been, such a diverse country in its ideas, philosophies and even origins.  And I don't know what "the white establishment" is, either.  I'm guessing that there is a lot of white people who don't feel like we're the establishment of anything.

So, to you, what exactly is "traditional America" and what is "the white establishment".

And do you want "stuff"?

[cattlekid]

MM, I haven’t seen the clip, but in my mind (remember, I am younger and female) the “white establishment” means old, white men that are stuck in a 1950’s mindset where women should be pregnant and in the kitchen.  They know they are a dying breed but they cling to their own beliefs, right or wrong.  They long for the old days, when everyone thought like them and looked like them and acted like them.  Now, they see that the world is changing and they refuse or are unable to change. 

Do I want “stuff”?  Heck no.  What I want is someone, anyone, to act like an adult and address the problems of our country head on.    Unfortunately, everyone seems to be out for their own interest.

[cariad]

I watched the clip this morning and don't really know what to make of it. The fear, the paranoia - it was like watching the class bully returning to school after summer holiday to find that everyone was now a foot taller than him and had been lifting weights every day for months. He seemed to be shrieking "Jesus, what if they start treating us like we've been treating them?"

[cassandra]

Nice one Cariad. Couldn't have said it any better than that.

   

[Willis]

One of our local channels replays "Alfred Hitchcock Presents" dramas every night. These are from the mid-1950s and very well-written and directed. (Probably too slow for modern audiences but that's a different topic.) These dramas certainly have their stereotypes especially when dealing with minorities, though not as much as was the norm for the 50s. But the point is that these dramas depict pretty much what I think most people would consider "traditional" America. Not a "Leave It To Beaver" America, but rather a wide range of interaction that shows how much our culture has changed.

Now there seems to be no "filters" or "limits" on what used to just be considered polite behavior. It was called civility and even if behind the scenes (as demonstrated by the dramatists) all sorts of lust, theft, and murder lurked just beneath the facade at least it allowed for a tolerable level of discourse, especially among mere acquaintances and strangers.

Additionally, certainly in the Hitchcock series, women had a different social role than today, but they were often depicted to be much stronger and more in charge IN REALITY than modern cultural pretensions might indicate. I'm old enough to remember that most of the women in my life had more authority and power than young people now think they had. That power was just displayed in more subtle ways and I believe actually provided more security and emotional face-saving options to both sexes.

But I guess I'm just waxing nostalgic... 

 

[noahvale]

^

[Rerun]

I feel traditional America means going to church and respecting what God put into place.  The change of "up yours" started in the 60's and I am fine with equal rights for all but Marriage is between one man and one woman.  Not one man and 3 woman, not one man and his cousin, and not same sex marriage.  WA passed same sex marriage and I'm just heartsick.  God will turn his back on this nation and it has probably started already.  He won't  turn His back on individuals but as a Nation the "up Yours" He has heard loud and clear.  People of this nation have turned their back on God.  No question.  So, traditional America is gone.

I can't even pray for this country or its leaders because their hearts are hard.  Just like ancient Israel and look what happened to them.

[Hemodoc]

I feel traditional America means going to church and respecting what God put into place.  The change of "up yours" started in the 60's and I am fine with equal rights for all but Marriage is between one man and one woman.  Not one man and 3 woman, not one man and his cousin, and not same sex marriage.  WA passed same sex marriage and I'm just heartsick.  God will turn his back on this nation and it has probably started already.  He won't  turn His back on individuals but as a Nation the "up Yours" He has heard loud and clear.  People of this nation have turned their back on God.  No question.  So, traditional America is gone.

I can't even pray for this country or its leaders because their hearts are hard.  Just like ancient Israel and look what happened to them.

Dear Rerun,

Well said as if it is not a well known conclusion already. Sadly, we are moving from Leave it to Beaver going onto Sodom and Gomorrah just as the Bible stated it would 2000 years ago. That which is good will be called bad and God will no longer be at the heart of this nation. Rerun, as you know, we have known it was coming for a very long time, but to see it here is a very sad day indeed.

Perhaps we have failed to pray for our leaders and lost blessings from God for our own failures. The time to pray is even greater today.  May God give you the strength to remember where we all are heading.

God bless, Rerun, keep the faith.

Peter

[Rerun]

Thanks Peter and I do know what you mean.  Others will be blind to it until it is revealed to them.  You or I cannot do it.  Thank you for your support. 

I hear you brother~

[MooseMom]

Bill's comment about "traditional" America refers to a U.S. where the vast majority of citizens didn't look upon government to solve their problems from cradle to grave.  A more independent populace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nj9e3JLGkA

Can you be more specific about how exactly the vast majority of citizens look upon government to solve their problems?  Which problems?  How are these problems solved by the government?  Are you talking about farm subsidies or subsidies to oil companies, for instance?  Or Medicare?  Benefits to veterans?  You've made a very sweeping statement, and I'd like to hear more specifics.

[MooseMom]

I feel traditional America means going to church and respecting what God put into place.  God will turn his back on this nation and it has probably started already.  He won't  turn His back on individuals but as a Nation the "up Yours" He has heard loud and clear.  People of this nation have turned their back on God.  No question.  So, traditional America is gone.

But this was exactly what slaveowners were saying after the Civil War.  Those people claimed that God intended that black people not have a soul.  They claimed to know what God intended, and they were struck down.  The slaveowners and the abolitionists both claimed that God was on their side.  Clearly that was not true.

Early European-Americans destroyed the Native American population and their entire civilization, but these were a people who were, by and large, God-fearing, yet they claimed that they were entitled to land that was not theirs because once again, they just knew that God was on their side and that the native population was "Godless" and therefore not entitled to life nor land.

We have a terrible history of labelling groups of people as "Godless" and then exterminating or demeaning them.  Sadly, this seems to be a continuing trend of today.

[YLGuy]

"God will turn his back on this nation." How dare you state what God will do. You have no idea. My God is a loving, caring, forgiving God who gave us free will.   

[MooseMom]

"God will turn his back on this nation." How dare you state what God will do. You have no idea. My God is a loving, caring, forgiving God who gave us free will.

If God hasn't turned His back on us by now, I would like to think He never will.  I mean, we practically exterminated one civilization and enslaved another.  Our Constitution certainly didn't give full rights to all of us.  For the longest time, only white men who owned property could vote.  We as a people have worked long and hard to ensure that all Americans have had their liberties expanded.  I would hope that God would give us props for that. 

[Hober Mallow]

I feel traditional America means going to church and respecting what God put into place.  The change of "up yours" started in the 60's and I am fine with equal rights for all but Marriage is between one man and one woman.  Not one man and 3 woman, not one man and his cousin, and not same sex marriage.  WA passed same sex marriage and I'm just heartsick.

That's freedom. People are supposed to be free to live as they like. There are countries which don't value freedom at all which enforce religious ideology. I'll take freedom over that option.

Sadly, we are moving from Leave it to Beaver going onto Sodom and Gomorrah just as the Bible stated it would 2000 years ago.

America was never like Leave it to Beaver. That time in 50s that some look back on with nostalgia as an innocent time never actually existed. It certainly wasn't a better time for any minorities or women.

That which is good will be called bad and God will no longer be at the heart of this nation.

Part of living in a free country is accepting that everyone gets to make your own decisions about how they live. You may consider certain behaviors "bad," but we don't legislate morality.

Both Republicans and Democrats try to legislate morality. Liberals, for example, have in various states pushed through smoking bans. Yes, smoking is bad, but why should the government tell me what I can and can't do? Second hand smoke? No problem, I can exercise my freedom and stay away from smoking establishments like restaurants and stay away from people who smoke.

Freedom actually works.

But this was exactly what slaveowners were saying after the Civil War.  Those people claimed that God intended that black people not have a soul.

Not only that, but the Bible sanctions slavery.

[MooseMom]

Somehow I think that there are many Americans that wouldn't like to go back to "Leave it to Beaver" times, those being the people who had to sit in the back of the bus.

[smcd23]

All this talk of government and God in the same thread just makes me wonder what happened to separation of church and state? Laws should be based on things other than Religion. We shouldn't have to make marriage laws - if 2 people want to marry, they should be allowed to. The government saying they cannot is bringing religious beliefs into the picture. I could be wrong on this, its been years since I've studied government, but I do not believe the constitution states that marriage has to be between a man and a woman. So why is the government sticking it's nose in now saying who CAN'T get married and trying to define it NOW? Goes against the separation of church and state. And also, why is God judging the country? If one believes in God, then one should live his or her own life in the manner which they believe God wants, and leave it at that. If everyone else wants to go against those beliefs, that's their deal - it's not the governments job nor place to tell them they are wrong or make laws to outlaw or ban whatever that belief or action is, not withstanding criminal things like murder etc. And if the government were to make marriage between a man and a man illegal, we are right back where we started infringing on the separation of church and state thing again. It's a fine line to walk, but if we want to be true to the constitution and the basic principles this country was founded on, then we have to do it.

As for "traditional America" - that is going to change with time as people evolve and change. We couldn't even go back to "Leave it to Beaver" times now if we wanted to. If we did, could we all be having this discussion right now as we are? Heck no, we'd have to travel over to June Cleavers house or wherever sit down and talk, and since that's geographically impossible for most of us, it would never be discussed.

So many things have changed with time. In the past the government helped free the slaves and give women rights. Now we have government trying to say who can marry who and whether or not I can have birth control or access to abortion. But do you know what these things all have in common? They all have religious backings.

I don't think we are a "godless" country, I just think we now have a lot of different views of God, and traditional America where most folks where white and Christan are gone, and this is leading to many questioning some of the things that we have in place, or don't have in place.

Do we want to go back to "traditional America"? I for one, do not. I am the educated working breadwinner in my house, and also a mother. Something June Cleaver would never be. I have rights, a voice, an opinion and am 100% capable of doing everything a man could do, and possibly do it better. Do we really want to step away from that to get back to "traditional America"? Do we really want to start spreading hate and inequality again? I don't think anyone except those few "traditional America" hold outs really want to, but I don't even think they fully understand what that would imply for them.

Just my 2 cents. I try to stay out of political debate, for fear I'll be called a Godless liberal etc. But I am not, I am truly 100% independent and make every political decision based on reason, not emotion or religion. And I honestly think if everyone elected did the same, more things would get done.

[Zach]

My friends at the Heritage Foundation recently put out this video:
http://heritageaction.com/

 

[cariad]

Bill's comment about "traditional" America refers to a U.S. where the vast majority of citizens didn't look upon government to solve their problems from cradle to grave.  A more independent populace.

Where is your proof that the "vast majority of citizens" now look to government to solve their problems, as opposed to previous generations?

And, until the last 10-15 years, America was 70% Caucasian.  Nothing racist about that - just fact. 

No, there is nothing racist about giving out accurate demographic information. The racist part is when you complain about what a load of lazy moochers Americans have become and then casually follow it up with "you know what else has changed? Fewer white people!"

Bill O'Reilly is just so subtle - whatever could he be implying??

[cariad]

Nice one Cariad. Couldn't have said it any better than that.

   

Thanks, Cas! 

[Gerald Lively]

Traditional America.  What is that?  Could it possibly mean going back to some time we recall as having a certain amount of fun?  I do not want to go back to that America; That was when there was overt racial discrimination and women were treated as second class citizens, and comic books were believed to be bad, after all, they contributed to juvenile delinquency.  You know, reefer madness, crappy tasting beer, and Howdy Doody on the tube.

In politics, the traditional America means a reactionary right-wing.

The goals we set for ourselves and their accomplishment is one way to gain the sense of well being.  Perhaps that is a tradition of sorts.  Perhaps settling down and getting into that house you can call home, with roasted turkey and candles on the dinner table is more of the traditional America you are looking back on.  That type of tradition is a personal things.

The realist sees America changing. Sometimes to adapt, or compete, or just because we need to know how to do everything better.  The recipe for mediocrity is “Don’t  fix if it isn’t broke.”  In times of prosperity there is less of this nostalgia or tradition. 

gl

[Rerun]

So tell me why a man cannot have 3 wives or the other way around.  Why can't you marry your cousin?  It is none of the government's beeswax.... right?  Why is child pornography against the law.... it doesn't hurt anyone to look.  Why can't we smoke pot legally.... oh forgot.. we can and same sex marriage.... who created Marriage?  Man or God....

I hope we all get what we believe.  If someone robs your house don't be mad they probably needed those things more than you did and you can go to work and get it again.  Right? 

Just leave God out of it there is no right or wrong except murder of course.... when human life begins 

[Rerun]

My friends at the Heritage Foundation recently put out this video:
http://heritageaction.com/

 

Nice video Zach.  So, Zach, tell us how Obama did during the Sandy disaster?   

[YLGuy]

Grateful Dead Throwing Stones Lyrics
Songwriters: OWEN, MARK ANTHONY / MCDONALD, MILTON / DONALD, HOWARD PAUL / ORANGE, JASON THOMAS / BARLOW, GARY

Picture a bright blue ball just spinning, spinning free
Dizzy with eternity.
Paint it with a skin of sky, brush in some clouds and sea
Call it home for you and me.
A peaceful place or so it looks from space
A closer look reveals the human race.
Full of hope, full of grace, is the human face.
But afraid, we may our home to waste.
Theres a fear down here we cant forget hasnt got a name just yet
Always awake, always around singing ashes to ashes all fall down.
Now watch as the ball revolves and the nighttime calls
And again the hunt begins and again the bloodwind calls
By and by again, the morning sun will rise
But the darkness never goes from some mens eyes.
It strolls the sidewalks and it rolls the streets
Stalking turf, dividing up meat.
Nightmare spook, piece of heat, you and me, you and me.
Click, flashblade in ghetto night. rudies looking for a fight.
Rat cat alley roll them bones. need that cash to feed that jones
And the politicians throwing stones
Singing ashes, ashes all fall down.
Commissars and pin-striped bosses role the dice
Any way they fall guess who gets to pay the price.
Money green or proletarian gray, selling guns instead of food today.
So the kids they dance, they shake their bones
While the politicians throwing stones
Singing ashes, ashes all fall down.
Heartless powers try to tell us what to think
If the spirits sleeping, then the flesh is ink.
Historys page, it is thusly carved in stone
The futures here, we are it, we are on our own.
If the game is lost then were all the same
No one left to place or take the blame.
We will leave this place an empty stone
Or this shinning ball of blue we can call our home
So the kids they dance, they shake their bones
While the politicians are throwing stones
Singing ashes, ashes all fall down.
Shipping powders back and forth
Singing black goes south while white comes north
And the whole world full of petty wars
Singing I got mine and you got yours.
And the current fashions set the pace.
Lose your step, fall out of grace.
And the radical he rant and rage, singing someone got to turn the page
And the rich man in his summer home,
Singing just leave well enough alone
But his pants are down, his covers blown
And the politicians are throwing stones
So the kids they dance they shake their bones
Cause its all too clear were on our own
Picture a bright blue ball just spinning, spinning free
Its dizzying, the possibilities. ashes, ashes all fall down.

[MooseMom]

So tell me why a man cannot have 3 wives or the other way around.  Why can't you marry your cousin?  It is none of the government's beeswax.... right?  Why is child pornography against the law.... it doesn't hurt anyone to look.  Why can't we smoke pot legally.... oh forgot.. we can and same sex marriage.... who created Marriage?  Man or God....

I hope we all get what we believe.  If someone robs your house don't be mad they probably needed those things more than you did and you can go to work and get it again.  Right? 

Just leave God out of it there is no right or wrong except murder of course.... when human life begins

Actually, marriage in the USA is more of a legal contract than a religious one.  A man cannot have three wives in this country because no one would insure them, for instance, and they would be devoid of many legal rights and benefits that come from legal marriage.  If a man and woman become married only in the eyes of God and without legal recognition, they are not legally married.  On the other hand, if a man and woman are married by a judge but not in a church and have no mention of God in the procedings, they are considered legally married and therefore entitled to all legal rights and benefits.

Marriage is very much the government's/state's business because it affects property rights, taxation, insurance etc.
 
People have been paired in recognized unions across place and time way before there was a belief in a Christian God, so I'm not sure it is historically accurate to say that marriage was created "by God".  I think it may be more accurate to say that marriage was created by organized society, indeed, by Man.

The reason that the Catholic Church decided that priests should not marry is because they did not want their property to be shared with wives and any resulting children.  That's the basis of their demand for celibacy.  It's not rooted in anything other than the wish to retain property.  God has nothing to do with it.  So, even the Church recognized that God is secondary in marriage to legal rights, ie, Man.

You know why child porn is illegal;  it damages the children.

I don't know how theft got into this discussion.  It's illegal because it hurts people.  Theft is considered wrong in just about all societies where there is the concept of personal ownership.  There are societies, though, where this concept does not exist.

[jbeany]

A man can have three wives - just not legally.  Just ask the fundamentalist Mormons.  Marriage is a legal issue, so you can be recognized by the government as a couple for property and tax purposes.  You have to get a license from the state to get married.  It's a legally binding contract. The only thing the church official has to do with it is sign it as a witness.  Period. One of the local preachers writes a column for my hometown paper.  He thinks that priests and preachers should no longer be able to sign marriage licenses.  To him, it seems wrong to have a religious figure responsible for state paperwork.  If you want the ceremony in your church, go for it, but leave the legal issues to the state to sign off on.  Whether of not a church recognizes a marriage is up to the members.

Given how many people I know who have sent off on the internet for the info that makes them "ordained", I think it's lost all value anyhow.  I know a guy who runs a lawn care business who regularly does weddings.  Another friend who works on a ferry line has gotten one as well, because he friends didn't want to pay a preacher.  I don't see any difference between what they do as an ordained minister than what I do as a notary public.  I spent less than $100 to get a bond and a stamp made and filled out paperwork that I sent to the state.  Poof, I'm a notary.