I'm Ending Treatment

[MooseMom]

Okay, let me thoughtless and insensitive here!

What is my responsibility to beachbum?

gl

None, in my view.

[Desert Dancer]

Okay, let me thoughtless and insensitive here!
What is my responsibility to beachbum?

None, in my view.

Only the responsibility we have to each other as fellow human beings. I suppose everyone interprets that responsibility differently, but it is there nonetheless.

[MooseMom]

I would prefer to think of it as having compassion.  To say that Gerald has some responsibility to a young man he's never met is placing an enormous burden on him, and I don't think that is fair.

I think about all of the times I've come onto IHD and spilled my guts in my deepest, darkest moments, and NEVER did it occur to me that any of you had any responsibility for me.  That would imply that all of those IHD members who didn't reply to me somehow failed me, and I don't think that is true.

Just my 2 cents.

[Gerald Lively]

The very nature of catharsis is to share the burden with someone.  Beachbum was seemed to be seeking some way to unload his burden.  What has engaged me is that beachbum’s experience is not that much different than just about any other member here.  I offered words of support and help but he disappeared.  Absent the establishment of a trust, I have no emotional obligation to him – nor do I wish to share his burden.

Personally, I see the exercise of focusing on ones burden as depressing in and of itself.  Life is to live and that is exactly what I told Mr. Beachbum.  Sitting here and reading posts on this forum is uniquely depressing, and in doing that I am reading about other individuals problems, which is cathartic for them.  That is why people post here.

Listen, I am going to die someday, probably soon.  So are all of you.  In my case it is likely to be a result of something related to kidney failure.  I wish to learn more, so I seek out the educational aspects of various threads.  In that way I can ease the emotional strain I do undertake.  In Mr. Beachbum’s case; different strokes for different folks. If he were emotionally stronger, he would not have written what he did. 

Who is responsible for contributing to his character makeup?

gerald

[YLGuy]

"If he were emotionally stronger, he would not have written what he did."
I disagree.  He told us about a lot of crap that he has been through.  We do not know what else he has been through.  I do not believe we can make that determination.

[Gerald Lively]

Our character is determined by many experiences, none of which happened on I hate Dialysis for Beachbum.

[cariad]

Okay, let me thoughtless and insensitive here!
What is my responsibility to beachbum?

None, in my view.

Only the responsibility we have to each other as fellow human beings. I suppose everyone interprets that responsibility differently, but it is there nonetheless.

I think you are both right. No responsibility whatsoever, but if you come onto a support forum and choose to respond to a post written by someone in despair, you have a responsibility to be compassionate.

[gothiclovemonkey]

Oh I totally do agree SOME people do commit suicide and talk about it first, its just typically the opposite. They arent going to say "im going to do it" then at that moment actually do it, you would have the opportunity to stop it. I know some people try anything to reach out before actually doing it. Even I did, just not with words.
Requardless if this was for some kind of attention, and in a way all of our posts are, its completely baffling to me why you wouldnt offer a kind word, or just not say anything at all.

sometimes in the grand scheme all we need is someone to say we understand, even if they dont really want to hear that, or believe it, its better than an attack or simply acting like u dont care.

I dont  understand people, i never will. I dont think i want to...
lately, ive lost my faith in humanity, it was pretty slim before, now its... nonexistent

IHD is for support, isnt it?? why come here if you dont want to be supportive and understanding? Why waste time typing anything if you feel you have no ties to that person?

[Gerald Lively]

Cariad:

I think you have misread what I posted - or, that my intentions did not come through. 

We all issued notes of support and compassion, including myself.   That the man cut himself off from communications here, is an entirely different question. Some have tried to find him, others tried to search him out.  All efforts have failed.  Now what?

[cariad]

I did misunderstand what question it was that you were trying to ask, but my answer is still the same. You have no responsibility to do anything further. In fact, giving him the option to contact one of us or searching news stories in Boston are great ideas, but I don't think anyone on here should attempt to track him down in order to try to intervene in his life somehow. That crosses a privacy line, at least it would for me.

Must leave this discussion for now. Late.

[Brightsky69]

Gerald - I think I get where you were coming from. Ya know...I was raised in a family that believed sh*t happens, you pick your self up by the booth straps and move on, keep going.
I have been thru some crap in my life aside from all the kidney problems and transplants. It never occured to me to take my own life. However, I did think often of "getting rid" of the people that were causing me all the grief.     Of course it was nothing like  physically getting rid of them.    I basically cut them out of my life. No contact. And it was amazing how much better I felt after that.

as I said, I was raised to pull my self up by the boot straps. My first transplant, I was living with my father at the time. My step mother is the devil period. So two weeks before my 1st transplant I moved out on my own. And went back to my own apartment to recover from the transplant in peace on my own (alone).
 
Beachbum (hopefully he is still out there) was/is dealing with more on his plate than he seemed to be able to handle at the time. I hope he did seek out some treatment. I trust he is ok and still holding onto some hope from somewhere.

[RichardMEL]

OK I have some further thoughts.

No I do not think we have any direct responsibility to others emotional states or indeed what they choose to do - of course not. I do feel though that if we take the time to respond to someone's clear cry for help to perhaps consider the kind of mindset they would be in and how our responses may be taken (and I think that kind of idea also lies at the heart of ReRun's original question regarding what if his family come here seeking answers and see some responses). Of course this is a community made up of many varied people, experiences and opinions and I wouldn't want to be seen to stifle that in any way... I do think that there are times where some discretion can go a long way, or tact if you will. Please do not take this to mean I am suggesting any particular person or post didn't have that - this is a general comment.

We can argue back and forward what we think beachbum's motivations are/were in posting. The real fact is that we just don't know much more than the sum total of what he's posted on here. Is it fair to judge a person's situation, experiences and mindset based on that? No of course it isn't - even though we all do this kind of thing with almost every post we read from someone on an intenet board, unless we know them more personally. It's kind of like GL wrote that he's spent time in the military and other stuff and seen and done things none of us could imagine - by the same token we can't know or imagine everything for bb's life or experiences and frustrations bar what we read on here. Same goes for any of us.

It's often easy to sit back behind our computers and make judgements/assumptions about a post we read online. It's also easy to make a flippant response... what's not easy is that we don't know how what we write could be taken by anyone reading. In situations like this where we are a support community for a very serious range of conditions that do have life changing/ending outcomes I do think we need to consider how our posts may be taken by the audience, and with sensitive topic areas like this one I think that while there may not be a responsibility per se (as in, if I write something that offends someone else, I'm not responsible for that person's actions leading from that) but as someone else, perhaps Cariad or MM wrote - it's because we all have a measure of compassion and at times empathy for those suffering through what we're all going through.

At the end of the day though, whatever beachbum's decisions and actions were or are, of course, his choice and his responsibility as our all of ours.

[bansix]

I for one am glad BeachBum asked the question. It is a valid question. I would have asked it myself if i wasn't so worried about being judged.
I have weighed two options since euthanasia isn't legal 1. Stopping dialysis and let nature takes its course 2. Gun shot

Natural course: will get very very sick (puking and diarrhea), start to experience dementia, no real expected expiration time, people will have a chance to save you, you may get locked up under suicidal watch and unable to try again, could risk having a stroke and end up in worse condition

Gun Shot: messy, grousome, can be horrific to those who find you, no open casket, may not be eligible for insurance claims, will go to hell if you believe in that place, it would only be ideal if you were taking a bullet to stop a bank robbery or something like that

[CebuShan]

All there late criticisms made me go back and reread my initial response. I certainly didn't mean to sound like I had it worse than anyone, I simply expressed my experience with the same statement that Tommy made and offered a possible solution. I apologise if my post was misunderstood.

[Gerald Lively]

BE POSITIVE * BE INFORMED * BE PROACTIVE * BE IN CONTROL * LIVE LIFE!

I borrowed that from Richard for a few moments.  Nice, isn't it? 

And isn't that what I have been saying?

After re-reading this thread several phrases came to mind:

1.  We are all individuals, therefore we all are different.
2.  Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus.
3.  I want to be understood, failing that I will be silent.
4.  I don't know what else to say.

[Chris]

I still refuse to read Men Are From Mars and Women Are From Venus. Instructor couldn't get me to read either for class, not my type of book.

[Riverwhispering]

I think we all could agree that if Beachbum is alive that hopefully someday when he is in a better state of mind that he will do at least one last post so we can put to rest in our minds that he's still alive.

He has if nothing else taught me and maybe others a lesson on two sides of the story and maybe a little compassion thrown in there too.   

Myself I have trust issues since my life fell apart in Sept.  I guess I'm skeptical more then I should be now.

The good thing Is hearing different thoughts on this ending treatment thread.  I love you all xoxo

[RenalSurvivorDotCA]

BE POSITIVE * BE INFORMED * BE PROACTIVE * BE IN CONTROL * LIVE LIFE!

I borrowed that from Richard for a few moments.  Nice, isn't it? 

And isn't that what I have been saying?

Gerald, I feel the same and have a similar tagline on my post as well.

I had  a talk with two of my dialysis friends from my unit who were considering stopping treatments. One had extreme calcification of the heart vessels and needed heart surgery. I remember that afternoon well. We were all on for our afternoon dialysis and then after I got settled in for a nap, his nurse wheeled him in beside my chair. I asked him why he was not on yet and he told me that he was stopping treatment. He got frustrated, his needling didn't go well. He wasn't going to have the surgery and they told him while it was risky having it, not having it would be equally bad. Anyway, we talked for a while and then he said he'd let them try his needles once more. His nurse got them in no problem. He even decided to go for the surgery. Unfortunately, he passed before his surgery date. My other friend is still on dialysis today and is feeling very positive these days. His main complaint was that he felt useless and a burden to his wife. He always said that he "should have died 5 years ago" and that if he died now would be happy for the extra 5 years he got to be with his family. I told him that 5 years is fine but it's the past now, and your new goal is the next 5 years, and after you achieve that then the next 5 years again.

I can't blame anybody for feeling down, but nobody can say we don't know their situation. We're all on a shorter time table than the general population. Life is 10% about what happens to you and 90% about how you deal with it.

[cariad]

BE POSITIVE * BE INFORMED * BE PROACTIVE * BE IN CONTROL * LIVE LIFE!

I borrowed that from Richard for a few moments.  Nice, isn't it? 

And isn't that what I have been saying?

Do you really believe that's what you've been saying? Can you honestly reread what you wrote in that first page of replies - the ones that we know he read - and tell me or anyone else that you were trying to be encouraging?

I am actually trained, quite extensively, to perform crisis intervention and talk to suicidal people. Most of it is intuitive anyhow, which is why there are many examples of people like GLM and DesertDancer who seem to know exactly the sort of thing to say and I assume were never formally trained. I can think of several times in my life where I let my personal feelings get the better of me and did not say what I should have said and all I can do is admit that to myself and move on. CebuShan, I thought what you said was lovely by the way, but this shouldn't be about what I think, it should be about Tommy.

I also think that RichardMel's signature is wonderful and very much 'him' but is not appropriate as a response here, which is probably why Richard did not just say 'hey, read my signature'. Tommy had just been told that he would never get a transplant, maybe he could see his way clear in time and come to realise what a brazen lie that hospital was telling, but he was reaching out to us in the irrational shock phase. I have dealt with one hospital in Boston and this led me to nickname one of their doctor's The Wicked Witch of The East. She was the most humorless, angry, unfeeling doctor I've ever had the misfortune to speak to, and that is saying A LOT. Those doctors who know precisely how to make clear that they could not possibly care any less about your suffering, your despair, or even your life, are out there, and at least one of them lives in Boston. If I had the means and the time I would fly out to Boston and advocate for Tommy. I would delight at the opportunity.

[gothiclovemonkey]

One thing I wish I wouldhave thought to tell him, when i messaged him privately, was that I was told by my neph that I would never ever get a transplant, id never be able to lose the weight needed for one, and that no one will ever list me. That was in 2007, i believed it. But fast forward to 2011, and guess what? Not only did I lose that weight on my own, but I got myself listed, without any help from that jerk off doc. (can u tell i like proving jerks wrong??) And the first center I went to actually denied me, but the second one approved me...
Anywho, I decided to say it here, just in case he can see it, and just not replying.

[Lillupie]

Im just curious has anyone heard from him??

Has anyone have him on like, a Facebook? Has he been on any social websites like Facebook recently? Is he still alive??

Lisa

[Gerald Lively]

Cariad:

If you wish to wave credentials around, then I should tell you that I was the Executive Director Community Action Agency and that included a crisis lifeline operations before I was recruited to work in County Administration back in 1975.  I am educated in behavioral science – small group dynamics and studied organizational behavior as a grad student.  My wife is a career Social Worker and I was the Budget Director over her operation for twelve years.

This means I do have experience in cases like Beachbum’s.  I also had two personal cases almost exactly like Beachbums – both survived.  And, I was told I could never have a kidney transplant (due to cancer).

My experience says my judgment here was correct.  Instead of talking glorious flowers and good will, show the individual that they belong among those who live life.  Jolt them into reality if you must.  Be a companion in life until they are improved.  Show them a better way. If all we do is soothe a furrowed brow, your hand will be easily removed by the subject.

What you disagree with is a judgment call.  As I said, “I want to be understood, failing that I will be silent.”

[cariad]

Cariad:

If you wish to wave credentials around, then I should tell you that I was the Executive Director Community Action Agency and that included a crisis lifeline operations before I was recruited to work in County Administration back in 1975.  I am educated in behavioral science – small group dynamics and studied organizational behavior as a grad student.  My wife is a career Social Worker and I was the Budget Director over her operation for twelve years.

This means I do have experience in cases like Beachbum’s.  I also had two personal cases almost exactly like Beachbums – both survived.  And, I was told I could never have a kidney transplant (due to cancer).

My experience says my judgment here was correct.  Instead of talking glorious flowers and good will, show the individual that they belong among those who live life.  Jolt them into reality if you must.  Be a companion in life until they are improved.  Show them a better way. If all we do is soothe a furrowed brow, your hand will be easily removed by the subject.

What you disagree with is a judgment call.  As I said, “I want to be understood, failing that I will be silent.”

Oh, for flips sake. Feel better now that that's out of your system?

You completely missed the point of what I was saying in bringing in my 'credentials' as you insist on labeling it. MM had said none of us were trained to talk some one off the ledge. I have been specifically trained to talk someone off the ledge, but was trying to demonstrate that all the training in the world does not really matter as some people have a flair for this and some don't. I did not really need to know about your budgetary experience, or really any of your experience, but there it is.

You asked a question and don't like my answer, which is, no. I do not think you've been saying anything inspirational and Tommy was telling you outright that you were angering him. It is not about you. It is not about me. Maybe in 1975 they were suggesting that you tell someone that you would love to be able to 'kick their ass' in the midst of their suicidal ideation, but I can promise you that is not how they are doing it now.

[bansix]

there was a debate on tv with doctors for euthanasia and doctors against it. in the end it wasn't a moral issue, these patients weren't depressed or having moments of self pity. they were patients living with severe pain where everthing that was tried to help only made things worse. theres no talking them off a ledge. or even stopping them from walking into on coming traffic. its more like they were already hit by a bus and the bus was dragging them along the road for miles. so wouldn't it best to put them out of their misery?

[The Noob]

you can try to help. you can try also to kick their arse..
in the end they must make a choice. or someone must make it for them (commitment to facility)

i'm a drunk. i went to many rehabs. was in/out the program longer than i could count.
when i got sober, it was between me and God only.

by the grace of God, if i make it another 2 weeks, i will have 12 years clean and sober.

by the grace of God, either Beachbum will have gotten help, or the alternative. i hope its the help part.
but as we say in the program, if you can't help them up, help them down..hit bottom faster.
if he was writing these things on here, a public forum the whole world can read, most likely he was also talking/telling to someone in his private life, and they took steps to intervene.

implied consent is one which means that if a person were in their "right mind", they would choose help and life.
i don't know where the line gets crossed and suspect it is an individual choice, right mind or not.