Should Sara Palin be held accountable?

[Hemodoc]

I agree that people who stand to gain power and influence (and, so, money) manipulate us.  We need to guard against that.

A quick comment about "liberty"...there has been a lot of discussion in our politics about liberty and freedom and personal responsibility.  The element that seems to be lacking in these discussions is the element of social responsibility, the good of people other than ourselves and the idea of looking after one another.  I can't help but believe that when some people talk about "liberty", they are really saying, "Screw the rest of you."  Our population is growing and and changing and we are becoming increasingly interconnected.  It is not easy to live all alone in the North Woods somewhere without your existence in some way impacting that of someone else.

I think the mandate for everyone to buy health insurance is indicative of this.  I can understand how someone might not want to be forced by the government to buy heath insurance.  It does seem to fly in the face of "liberty". But I personally believe that it is our social duty to make sure we are all insured and contribute to the pot so that someone who does get sick or is hurt in an accident can have access to affordable care.  We all pay our taxes so that we can have police and fire protection. 

Re guns...we as a society have decided that barring certain restrictions, we have a right to own a gun.  This is the choice that we have made, and we have to live with the consequences of that choice.  If someone legally has a gun and flips out and shoots a bunch of people, we can mourn but we as a society have to take responsibility for that societal choice.  We have a lot of laws in place that are supposed to keep people like this gunman from buying a gun, but people break laws every day so that they can make a buck.  That's probably what happened here.

Re McCain, I did not vote for him, but I vastly admired his answer to the woman who questioned Obama's character.  Something has happened to Senator McCain.  He has lost his honor somewhere along the way since 2008.  He has become angry and bitter, and I really hate to see that.

Dear MooseMom, once again, it is a myth that conservatives are not caring and are simply cold hearted as have as you said, a screw you attitude.  In fact, America is the most generous and giving nation in the history of the world, and that is not only with our money, it is with the blood of our children of America lest we forget the sacrifices this nation has given to freedom around the world.  MooseMom, it is a simple myth to call people like me, a person who identifies and represents the average person in the so called Tea Party movement screw you people.

Now if you wish to say that we tell able bodied people to get up and pull your own weight, why not that is indeed a Bible principle itself:

II Thessalonians 3:6     Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
7     For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
8     Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
9     Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
10     For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
11     For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
12     Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.

Is that too much to ask of able bodied people?  We have far too many people taking advantage of the system for their gain. I live in an average community where a few years ago, someone rented out a house to section 8.  Immediately there were over 20 people in the house, and then the crime wave hit our neighborhood.  A criminal gang had moved in on the pretense of housing of their elderly grand parents.  The only drug deal I have ever witnessed in my life occurred right in front of my house with a 13 or 14 year old punk kid looking me directly in my eyes with no fear what so ever.  In fact, he walked over in front of my yard 15 feet away from, he could have walked 5 feet further and been hidden from my view, but he did it right in front of me glaring right at me.  I surmised he was probably armed since he was just a short punk kid about 5 feet tall at most weighing probably 120 pounds at most, if even that.

We had break ins and we had fights right out in front of our house almost daily from the rival gang bangers and the government did nothing whatsoever despite the fact that they arrested the ring leaders of that house for drug trafficking and other felonies.  It was only the recession and the foreclosure by the owner that gave us back our neighborhood.  No one in any government agency did anything for our neighborhood to protect us from these people abusing the system even though it is illegal to have that many people in a section 8 house.  Several people moved out of the neighborhood and we even considered doing the same. By the grace of the Lord, we have our neighborhood back since they are now gone and there is a new owner living in the house and taking care of it.  By the way, I forgot to tell how they really destroyed this very nicely built house as well.

Is that the type of society we wish to promote in America?  Are people fed up with government sponsored programs ruining neighborhoods such as my example and many others I know of personally.  A brand new neighborhood became the center of gang activity about 3 years ago because developers bought up several homes and rented them all out to section 8.  The shootings and gang activity led to a public outcry.  My experience is unfortunately not an isolated incident, I wish it was.

Are there folks that do well with a hand up? Absolutely and I am glad that our system has the compassion to care for those that are in dire straights, such as dialysis patients for instance.  But all I have to do is look three doors over to see the waste, and abuse and outright fraud of these public funds that many are simply playing the system. The LA gangs have found out how to play the system and this is their common way of getting a free drug house to work from. 

So, we are not the screw you people, we may very well be the stand on your own two feet young man people, but isn't that the goal of a healthy society?

[MooseMom]

Hemodoc, I find it utterly fascinating that you assumed that I was talking about conservatives in general and you in particular as the "screw you" people.  Not once did I use the word "conservative" or "tea party" in my post...not once.  Why not?  Because I do NOT believe that conservatives are "cold hearted".  I don't make those kinds of generalizations because I know they are false.  But I firmly believe that there is a group of Americans who are convinced that any and everyone who needs Medicaid or some other benefit are somehow inferior and, worse of all, are so defined as "them", ie, "surely, not us."  Unfortunately, there is a vocal branch of the so-called Tea Party who seem to fear people who are not "like them."

I agree that people will game the system, but it is unfair to tarnish all people who may need support as lazy or deceitful or cheating.  And I'm sure you don't view things that way.  We have all kinds of laws targeted at people who defraud and demean our generous natures, but such fraud still happens.   It's like gun laws...we have all kinds of laws targeted at people who are unfit to own a weapon, but nutcases like the guy in Arizona still find a way to wreak havoc.  We just have to do a much better job in enforcing our laws.

I agree that all able-bodied people should pull their own weight, of course.  But someone who is able bodied today may not be so tomorrow; you never know when you might be the one who needs help.  It's easy to spout off about "self-reliance" and "liberty" and "personal freedom" if you have enough to eat, a place to sleep, have received a good education and are healthy and can see a doctor whenever you please.

Sure, we are a generous nation...when we feel like it.  We'll send money to Haiti, but we balk at insisting that all of our fellow citizens have access to affordable health care.  We glory in having the right to have a gun, but we don't seem to believe that all Americans have the right to access to health care.  I had to buy an annual health insurance policy when I first returned to live in the US.  One week before expiration, I became ill (not kidney related) and was hospitalized for five days.  When my claims were filed, they were all denied AND my policy was cancelled retroactively.  I had to sue the insurance company, and of course I won because the ins co just made crap up.  No American should have to fight like that for something so basic as health care...I know I don't have to tell you that because I am aware of all the work you do in the dialysis advocacy field.  So yeah..we like feeling virtuous when we send money to poor brown people whose entire country has been demolished, but when it comes to providing basic services for fellow Americans who shouldn't have to rely on charity, we sometimes really suck.

My son is autistic, and he lives with his dad in the UK because educational and employment opportunities are so much better there than here.  My state, Illinois, ranks dead last in funding for adults with disabilities.  If this is truly the most generous nation on earth...if benevolent generosity is the very definition of America..., no citizen should have to worry about bankruptcy in the face of catastrophic illness, no citizen should ever go hungry or homeless, no dialysis patient should EVER be subject to the reuse of an artificial kidney, no child should be denied the best education on the face of the earth, no parent should have to fight for services for their autistic kid, and there shouldn't be a shortage of donor organs.

The scenario you described re your neighborhood and the presence of gangs must have made you feel really frustrated.  I'd feel the same.  It's good that there was a public outcry...we all have a duty to protect our neighbors from this kind of activity.  I do hate waste...it is sinful, and I think we all should fight hard to eliminate waste wherever we can.  But what might seem wasteful to you might be a godsend to someone we don't even know.  We just have to be careful when we make moral judgments about other people's needs.  I'd rather have to deal with waste, though, than deal with corporate interests that are limited to making profit and not in serving the American people well.

I hope I have made sense because I didn't get one single second of sleep last night, I have a dreadful cold and I am medicated to the eyeballs.

[Hemodoc]

Dear MooseMom,

My vote is to just stop all of this non-productive rhetoric, but I doubt that will happen any time soon.

I actually worked at the May Institute for Autistic Children for about two years as a special education teacher.  Autism can be quite tragic, but all of the kids at this residential center were paid by the school districts and the other programs.  I thought that was the law everywhere but I guess I don't know.

http://www.mayinstitute.org/

Sorry to hear you have to go all the way to England to see your son.

I for one think that the way America is attempting health care reform is not being done with the wisdom that other nations have accomplished this transition.  Switzerland has mandatory health insurance mandate for all citizens so that the costs are evenly spread across the population. Those that can't afford it are covered by government programs.  All health organizations are by law non-profit.  I see that as one of the biggest flaws in the American system.  For-profit health is really a silly way to entrust our health and future, too many examples to back this up.

Do I see America getting a sensible system, not any time soon.  Interestingly, the initial Blue Cross had only one price for all people, then other companies started preferential policy pricing which forced all of them into an insane competition and exclusion.  Probably too late to put the genie back in, but we have already given up a better system years ago.  We are unfortunately reaping the greed sown by a generation before us. I have seen the benefits of being a doctor at an ethical non-profit, Kaiser, Southern CA and I enjoy that now as a patient.

Interestingly, several years ago, many from the NHS looked at Kaiser as a model for the NHS because of better resource allocation and outcomes than the NHS for the same money involved.  I think that speak of the possibilities of how we could do even better than the NHS.  Will that ever happen, I doubt it.

[MooseMom]

Hemodoc, I agree with your entire post.

My son travels here to see me as I am not sure I am up for international travel anymore.  I fear dialysis mostly because it will mean that travelling to the UK to see my son if there is an emergency will be hard...my insurance wouldn't pay for dialysis treatments in the UK, and, well...that's way off topic.

I am hopeful that the rhetoric will be toned down.  I think there is a lot of soul searching these days in this regard.  It may not come to anything, but at least we are pausing.  I do have some hope.

[Bruno]

It pains me to see you good folk arguing like this. I don't think we should allow political discussion that is severing friendships...moderator, where are you?
Yes, I know it's not my business, but I'm concerned.

[KarenInWA]

It pains me to see you good folk arguing like this. I don't think we should allow political discussion that is severing friendships...moderator, where are you?
Yes, I know it's not my business, but I'm concerned.

I've been following this thread.  I don't see any angry mud-slinging going on.  To me, it is a civil discussion about many of the events that are goiing on in America today, from people who have differing thoughts and opinions, but are open to hearing those thoughts and opinions.  The AZ shootings are hard to ignore, and need to be discussed.  This is a much more civil and intelligent discussion than on many news boards out there.  I am learning a lot from everyone here, and appreciate that.  What would shut this down is name calling or profanity, and I see none of that here.  I think both MooseMom and HemoDoc  are not the kind of people to resort to that.  They are both contributing to a needed  thread on this board about a horrible tragedy here in the USA.  Emotions in this country are running high right now.  Discussing the issue is a way to cope.

What really makes me  is hearing the reports that the WBC is planning on protesting at the funerals of those shot and killed, including the 9-year old girl.  WBC is some religious-fanatic group that thinks soldiers and others die because homosexuality is tolerated in this country. They celebrate deaths like these and say they are God's punishments for homeosexual sins.  They stage these protests in hopes of getting their rights to free speech trampled on, then file lawsuits and sue.  This is where responsibility for what one says comes into play.  If I yell "Fire" in a crowded theater and there is none, then I must be responsible for any mayhem I cause.  Why isn't this true for this group of "people"?  I just don't get it.

Sad time to be an American. 
KarenInWA

[Hemodoc]

It pains me to see you good folk arguing like this. I don't think we should allow political discussion that is severing friendships...moderator, where are you?
Yes, I know it's not my business, but I'm concerned.

I've been following this thread.  I don't see any angry mud-slinging going on.  To me, it is a civil discussion about many of the events that are goiing on in America today, from people who have differing thoughts and opinions, but are open to hearing those thoughts and opinions.  The AZ shootings are hard to ignore, and need to be discussed.  This is a much more civil and intelligent discussion than on many news boards out there.  I am learning a lot from everyone here, and appreciate that.  What would shut this down is name calling or profanity, and I see none of that here.  I think both MooseMom and HemoDoc  are not the kind of people to resort to that.  They are both contributing to a needed  thread on this board about a horrible tragedy here in the USA.  Emotions in this country are running high right now.  Discussing the issue is a way to cope.

What really makes me  is hearing the reports that the WBC is planning on protesting at the funerals of those shot and killed, including the 9-year old girl.  WBC is some religious-fanatic group that thinks soldiers and others die because homosexuality is tolerated in this country. They celebrate deaths like these and say they are God's punishments for homeosexual sins.  They stage these protests in hopes of getting their rights to free speech trampled on, then file lawsuits and sue.  This is where responsibility for what one says comes into play.  If I yell "Fire" in a crowded theater and there is none, then I must be responsible for any mayhem I cause.  Why isn't this true for this group of "people"?  I just don't get it.

Sad time to be an American. 
KarenInWA

Thank you Karen, I thought we were having a civil discourse on a tragic and heated topic. I have the greatest respect for all who have participated and I believe we have shared and learned from everyone's perspective.

As far as the nut job cult called WBC, they are not Baptist and they do not represent Christian ideals.  I would hope folks are able to see that they do not present the gospel of Christ in any way. I suspect that they will not get any where near if folks simply turn out in large numbers and prevent their protest at the funerals themselves.  That is a tactic that has worked well with these creeps before.  As Baptist myself, these folks do not at all speak for me.

[paul.karen]

Lets blame Sarah  come on.

Lets talk about personnel responsibility.  We are all to be held accountable for OUR own actions.

When Bush was president i saw progressives or people on the left what ever you want to call them carrying signs of Bushes head in crosshairs on a regular basis.  As well as bush looking like Hitler ect ect... 

This guy was a whack job (does it matter if he was a rep or a Dem?)  People are looking to label and place blame.  Does one really have to look hard.   The guy was a lunatic he did a terrable thing and he has been caught.
We can blame the music he listened to-his parnets-his school-his pastor-his sister his girlfriend ect ect.  But HE is the one to blame.  Not Sarah not Bush not Obama not peloszi.

Seems personnel responsibility like common sense has left America.  It is always someone Else's fault.

[KarenInWA]

Lets blame Sarah  come on.

Lets talk about personnel responsibility.  We are all to be held accountable for OUR own actions.

When Bush was president i saw progressives or people on the left what ever you want to call them carrying signs of Bushes head in crosshairs on a regular basis.  As well as bush looking like Hitler ect ect... 

This guy was a whack job (does it matter if he was a rep or a Dem?)  People are looking to label and place blame.  Does one really have to look hard.   The guy was a lunatic he did a terrable thing and he has been caught.
We can blame the music he listened to-his parnets-his school-his pastor-his sister his girlfriend ect ect.  But HE is the one to blame.  Not Sarah not Bush not Obama not peloszi.

Seems personnel responsibility like common sense has left America.  It is always someone Else's fault.

Paul,

I do agree with you that the gunman is fully responsible for his own actions.  However, Sarah Palin is in a position of leadership in this country, in the sense that many look up to her.  When one is in such a position, one also needs to take personal responsibility for the communications they put out there.  We all know that there is political discourse in our nation, and a LOT of anger.  Mixed in that are crazy people who have no boundaries.  Yes, we still have no idea what brought this loon to the edge, but I for one am afraid of copy cats.  There is also a list of nutjobs who have commited equally reprehensible crimes, citing certain media and political icons as their heroes.  When in a position of leadership, be it political (especially) or media, one needs to take personal responsibility for the anger that may result.  Personally, if I were Sarah Palin, I would apologize for my complete and utter stupidity in posting that poster with gun lingo, denounce any and all rhetoric that is like it, then go and hide and be done with it all.  This would do me in.

Just like I would have to take personal responsibility for yelling "Fire" in a crowd, Ms. Palin needs to take responsibility for her severe poor lack of judgement and apologize for being less than intelligent.  To many in this country, it is simply the right thing to do.

KarenInWA

[BigSky]

Just like I would have to take personal responsibility for yelling "Fire" in a crowd, Ms. Palin needs to take responsibility for her severe poor lack of judgement and apologize for being less than intelligent.  To many in this country, it is simply the right thing to do.

KarenInWA

Maybe this should be suggested to Obama, he has done much worse in this area.  Dont recall any other President referring to the citizens  that he is to serve as being the "enemy" because they oppose his policies.


Also how about CNN who said that Obama should channel his inner Al Capone and go "gansta" on the GOP or even the Huffington Post who outright wanted violence against Conservatives by saying what was needed was to "break their kneecaps".

[KarenInWA]

Just like I would have to take personal responsibility for yelling "Fire" in a crowd, Ms. Palin needs to take responsibility for her severe poor lack of judgement and apologize for being less than intelligent.  To many in this country, it is simply the right thing to do.

KarenInWA

Maybe this should be suggested to Obama, he has done much worse in this area.  Dont recall any other President referring to the citizens  that he is to serve as being the "enemy" because they oppose his policies.


Also how about CNN who said that Obama should channel his inner Al Capone and go "gansta" on the GOP or even the Huffington Post who outright wanted violence against Conservatives by saying what was needed was to "break their kneecaps".

Yep, that too.  I don't know who or what started all of the violent rhetoric, but anyone who has participated in it who has been in a position of leadership, needs to take responsibility for their actions.  I think Palin has been brought to the forefront because her map of "Crosshairs Across America", targeting specific congresspeople,  actually resulted in a gun tragedy towards one of those congresspeople.  When something that huge happens, and you have put such a thing on your website, here's the proof that it doesn't go unnoticed.  Seriously, if I were her, or someone who supported her, I would feel completely and utterly stupid and embarrassed right now.  Why hasn't she come out with anything other than a generic statement?

KarenInWA

[cariad]

“As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy,” the former classmate, Caitie Parker, wrote in a series of Twitter feeds Saturday. “I haven’t seen him since ’07 though. He became very reclusive.”

“He was a political radical & met Giffords once before in ’07, asked her a question & he told me she was ‘stupid & unintelligent,’ ” she wrote.

I love it, a left wing radical taking out the fiscally conservative blue dog Democrat for being too conservative

Well, is political rhetoric the way we should go?  Then let's take the spin above and let it run its course if that is what folks wish to do.

No, forgive me for making fun of a terrible tragedy, but we are on a thread blaming a completely innocent person and this is a liberal nut job, not a conservative nut job.  Should we now go forth in glee because it was one of your nut jobs?

No, I think that we should all stare into the face of the immature and de-humanizing myths folks are pushing on both sides of the aisle and act like adults if we can that anymore.

The rhetoric is dangerous and has consequences.  Perhaps everyone in the world recognizes what we don't.  I myself would like to see it end.  If folks wish to discuss real issues with passion, so be it, but I am getting tired of all of the myths about people like me and vice versa.

I found this disturbing and had to read it several times to make sure I was understanding it. Those clappy, smiley icons and writing 'I love it' really upsets me. OK, I think I see where you were trying to go with it, but I don't see anyone (at least on here) reveling in one side or the other getting the blame. I also think that assuming that a person who admits she has not seen the perpetrator in over 3 years is some authority on this murderer is ludicrous. You yourself went through a dramatic political change, Peter, so anyone who knew you from that time might be able to make similar remarks about your liberalism (I am going to assume you were never obsessed with a completely fabricated Maya 'prophecy' though).

Now, more general comments:
Last night I watched a bit of Fox News because MSNBC was not on and CNN was at commercial. It wasn't horrible, but I think these were unique circumstances. They interviewed the mother of the 9-year-old and her parting words were to the effect of "These right-wing extremists have to be reigned in". Notable because she slipped it in on Fox which is a feat in itself, and also because it was left unremarked upon. I don't know her politics and really could not make a guess. She was not at this meeting, her daughter went with a family friend.

I think taking responsibility for one's actions includes Sarah Palin and other politicians who have made violent remarks. I agree with Karen's remarks completely in that regard. I am all for personal responsibility, but some people are incapable of exercising a proper degree of personal responsibility, and public figures, especially politicians, need to keep this in mind and act accordingly. If this person is as mentally ill as they suggest, it is a shame that he did not have proper mental health intervention back when the people around him were seeing ominous signs.

This country is far more violent than Britain and has a much higher murder rate. Last I checked when i was having this discussion in 2008, our murder rate was 4 times that of Britain's. Britain has strict anti-gun laws. Anyone who has spent any time over there can tell you that you can walk around just about any area at 3AM and it is perfectly safe. We are one of the most violent countries in the Western world, if not the most, and we have plenty of guns, so the idea that guns make us safer does not hold water.

I am so sad about this, though. I was hugging my son as I was explaining it all to him, and telling him that the little girl that died was only a year older than he is. He volunteered with us for the Obama campaign, and I could easily see us attending one of these functions and bringing Aidan along and encouraging him to ask a question of our congresswoman. The fact that Giffords was doing all the right things, making herself accessible to her constituents, and this is what she gets for her trouble just makes me want to cry. I told Aidan that this is one of the many reasons that I want to move back to Britain. (He doesn't want to go.)

[KarenInWA]

Thank you Karen, I thought we were having a civil discourse on a tragic and heated topic. I have the greatest respect for all who have participated and I believe we have shared and learned from everyone's perspective.

As far as the nut job cult called WBC, they are not Baptist and they do not represent Christian ideals.  I would hope folks are able to see that they do not present the gospel of Christ in any way. I suspect that they will not get any where near if folks simply turn out in large numbers and prevent their protest at the funerals themselves.  That is a tactic that has worked well with these creeps before.  As Baptist myself, these folks do not at all speak for me.

Hemodoc,

I *completely* agree with you that the WBC is not Baptist or Christian or a church in any way.  That is why I refuse to spell out what they say WBC stands for.  Westboro, sure, but the rest of it?  Ew, not so much!  I call them "religious" fanatics because they claim religion is behind what they do, and fanatics because, well, they are.  Kind of like all the political fanatics out there.  They may be political, but they don't speak for everyone they claim to "represent".  The whole WBC thing is sick, though, and I wish they would just go away.

KarenInWA

[BigSky]

Yep, that too.  I don't know who or what started all of the violent rhetoric, but anyone who has participated in it who has been in a position of leadership, needs to take responsibility for their actions.  I think Palin has been brought to the forefront because her map of "Crosshairs Across America", targeting specific congresspeople,  actually resulted in a gun tragedy towards one of those congresspeople.  When something that huge happens, and you have put such a thing on your website, here's the proof that it doesn't go unnoticed.  Seriously, if I were her, or someone who supported her, I would feel completely and utterly stupid and embarrassed right now.  Why hasn't she come out with anything other than a generic statement?

KarenInWA

As to that generic statement as you put it.  At least she offered condolences.

Really now, still with the political rhetoric trying to blame her and those who support her.

Well that stupidity and embarrassment might be redirected to the left then since it was the liberal site the dailykos who painted this Congress lady to be  a "target" and they were going to get her for betraying the Constitution  years before Palins map came out and it was one of their very own on the hard left who actually committed this crime.


Maybe instead of relying on that political rhetoric, you might acknowledge the guy was a nutjob who did it if own accord and no "target list" or map had anything to do with it.

[paul.karen]

Well unless the killer had Palin posters all over his walls and shouted Allah Palin as he opened fire it looks like the liberal left as usual (maybe just maybe) started to play the blame game to soon.  I could be wrong maybe he was a palin fanatic. 

Just like the loser who flew his plane into a building last year it was all the tea parties fault people like him should be on a watch list or whatever the progressives were whining about just to find out it was one of there own (so to say).

Sometimes tragedies are just that.  Not everyone needs a Sane reason to do an insane thing.

have you not seen that it is the left that attacks and the right who demonstrate in a civil way??  Look back a few years to the National conventions.  Dems were protested peacefully by republicans at there convention.
When the Republicans had there convention well the dems protested but it was far from peaceful.

There doesnt always have to be a scapegoat.  Insane people do insane things.  Fingerpoitning without facts well that can and usually does backfire.
 

[KarenInWA]

Maybe instead of relying on that political rhetoric, you might acknowledge the guy was a nutjob who did it if own accord and no "target list" or map had anything to do with it.

I never said the gunman wasn't responsible for his actions.  He completely and totally is. But, in light of all of this. we need to change how we discuss politics in this country.  Palin needs to acknowledge her crosshairs map and eat crow over it, simply because one of her "targets" was shot at. It does not mean she caused it, but she put the gun target on Gifford's district.  It was noticed, and it spread like wildfire.

As for me calling Palin and her supporters stupid - I am a supporter of Obama.  I voted for him.  However, if his policies turn on me and make my life difficult - such as severly cutting funding for ESRD patients, or something not quite as specifically targeted - I too will feel stupid and embarrassed.  One of the main reasons why I voted for him is healthcare, and how afraid I am for my future as a single woman with failing kidneys.

KarenInWA

[Hemodoc]

“As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy,” the former classmate, Caitie Parker, wrote in a series of Twitter feeds Saturday. “I haven’t seen him since ’07 though. He became very reclusive.”

“He was a political radical & met Giffords once before in ’07, asked her a question & he told me she was ‘stupid & unintelligent,’ ” she wrote.

I love it, a left wing radical taking out the fiscally conservative blue dog Democrat for being too conservative

Well, is political rhetoric the way we should go?  Then let's take the spin above and let it run its course if that is what folks wish to do.

No, forgive me for making fun of a terrible tragedy, but we are on a thread blaming a completely innocent person and this is a liberal nut job, not a conservative nut job.  Should we now go forth in glee because it was one of your nut jobs?

No, I think that we should all stare into the face of the immature and de-humanizing myths folks are pushing on both sides of the aisle and act like adults if we can that anymore.

The rhetoric is dangerous and has consequences.  Perhaps everyone in the world recognizes what we don't.  I myself would like to see it end.  If folks wish to discuss real issues with passion, so be it, but I am getting tired of all of the myths about people like me and vice versa.

I found this disturbing and had to read it several times to make sure I was understanding it. Those clappy, smiley icons and writing 'I love it' really upsets me. OK, I think I see where you were trying to go with it, but I don't see anyone (at least on here) reveling in one side or the other getting the blame. I also think that assuming that a person who admits she has not seen the perpetrator in over 3 years is some authority on this murderer is ludicrous. You yourself went through a dramatic political change, Peter, so anyone who knew you from that time might be able to make similar remarks about your liberalism (I am going to assume you were never obsessed with a completely fabricated Maya 'prophecy' though).

Now, more general comments:
Last night I watched a bit of Fox News because MSNBC was not on and CNN was at commercial. It wasn't horrible, but I think these were unique circumstances. They interviewed the mother of the 9-year-old and her parting words were to the effect of "These right-wing extremists have to be reigned in". Notable because she slipped it in on Fox which is a feat in itself, and also because it was left unremarked upon. I don't know her politics and really could not make a guess. She was not at this meeting, her daughter went with a family friend.

I think taking responsibility for one's actions includes Sarah Palin and other politicians who have made violent remarks. I agree with Karen's remarks completely in that regard. I am all for personal responsibility, but some people are incapable of exercising a proper degree of personal responsibility, and public figures, especially politicians, need to keep this in mind and act accordingly. If this person is as mentally ill as they suggest, it is a shame that he did not have proper mental health intervention back when the people around him were seeing ominous signs.

This country is far more violent than Britain and has a much higher murder rate. Last I checked when i was having this discussion in 2008, our murder rate was 4 times that of Britain's. Britain has strict anti-gun laws. Anyone who has spent any time over there can tell you that you can walk around just about any area at 3AM and it is perfectly safe. We are one of the most violent countries in the Western world, if not the most, and we have plenty of guns, so the idea that guns make us safer does not hold water.

I am so sad about this, though. I was hugging my son as I was explaining it all to him, and telling him that the little girl that died was only a year older than he is. He volunteered with us for the Obama campaign, and I could easily see us attending one of these functions and bringing Aidan along and encouraging him to ask a question of our congresswoman. The fact that Giffords was doing all the right things, making herself accessible to her constituents, and this is what she gets for her trouble just makes me want to cry. I told Aidan that this is one of the many reasons that I want to move back to Britain. (He doesn't want to go.)

Dear Cariad, the smileys and I love it is an attempt at sarcasm to show how many of us in the conservative camp were offended by this entire thread.

If you read my commentary below, i thought I had made that point pretty obvious.  If I have offended with my attempt at sarcasm, I apologize.

Yes, I am offended at this entire thread and the many references to conservatives and Republicans that are myths. That hasn't stoppe 5 pages of accusations against the Tea Party and the right for what a messed up nut job did that was completely outside of any reality, let alone political reality. Yet, we have MUCH more in common than what the political pundits imply with their 10 second sound bites designed to inflame the passions of their supporters.  Yes, I understand you are offended by that and I did it by design to call attention to this entire absurd thread, but do you not realize how the many comments form the liberal camp about the myths of people like me have likewise offended?  Perhaps it is time to move on past on all of this absurd rhetoric and realize a simple truth, we are all going to have to work together to sort out this mess we call America today, we have no other choice.

[Hemodoc]

Maybe instead of relying on that political rhetoric, you might acknowledge the guy was a nutjob who did it if own accord and no "target list" or map had anything to do with it.

I never said the gunman wasn't responsible for his actions.  He completely and totally is. But, in light of all of this. we need to change how we discuss politics in this country.  Palin needs to acknowledge her crosshairs map and eat crow over it, simply because one of her "targets" was shot at. It does not mean she caused it, but she put the gun target on Gifford's district.  It was noticed, and it spread like wildfire.

As for me calling Palin and her supporters stupid - I am a supporter of Obama.  I voted for him.  However, if his policies turn on me and make my life difficult - such as severly cutting funding for ESRD patients, or something not quite as specifically targeted - I too will feel stupid and embarrassed.  One of the main reasons why I voted for him is healthcare, and how afraid I am for my future as a single woman with failing kidneys.

KarenInWA

This man will more than likely NOT be held responsible for his actions since there is much evidence already that he probably is a paranoid schizophrenic.  If that comes to pass, that this man is not held responsible for his actions because of mental illness and that his actions were outside of any known reality, then please explain to me how Sarah Palin or anyone is responsible for incoherent actions of a madman?

Once again, he is NOT a right wing activist, and as much as people are disputing that, we don't want him either.  Conservatives don't take kindlly to people that burn the American flag or enjoy watching it burnt.  He is instead a dangerous, psycho nut job.  What part of politics does that invoke?  Sorry, but this entire thread is rediculous and I am not really sure we are going anywhere with it.  The myths of the fiery rhetoric will persist and this country will become more polarized making the creeps behind the scenes able to keep manipulating the masses for their own political ends.  Is that really the America that people want?  Not me, but I don't know where else to run anymore.

[MooseMom]

Working together to solve our country's problems was why Obama was elected in the first place.  "Working together" did not come easily, so in the mid-terms, people once again used the ballot box to state their wishes, which were "find a way to work together and get things done."

I will give Sarah Palin the benefit of the doubt.  She comes from a culture where people use guns for sport and probably does not have a lot of experience with people who use guns for far more sinister purposes.  On the campaign trail, she tended to go to rallies that reflected her own values and experiences.  That is not a criticism, but it might have been good for her political education if she had ventured away from "small town America".  This is why she is unelectable...she has never presented herself as someone who can represent ALL Americans because I suspect that she doesn't yet fully understand people who are not like her.  Whether or not you love or hate Obama, love or hate his policies, he at least was the one who told us that there is no red American or blue America, only the United States of America.  His message was one of unity.  Palin's was not.

I would like to think that Sarah Palin looks back on her map and sees that it was perhaps unwise.  Of course, hindsight is 20/20.  I'm sure candidates on both sides have used weapon imagery in their messages, and I hope those people are feeling a bit of contrition, too.  It's perhaps unfair to zero in on Sarah Palin for criticism in this regard, but she has made herself into a very high profile person, and with that comes a modicum of duty.  If she would surface and would state in no uncertain terms that she would never again use this sort of imagery and would challenge others to do the same, that might go a long way to easing tensions.  If she wants to be a leader, this would strategically be a golden opportunity for her.

As for the WBC, they are evil and God is watching them.

[MooseMom]

@Hemodoc, I suspect this incident took on a political tint because the congresswoman was shot while on a "political duty", so to speak.  The killer had targeted her for some time.  We unfortunately are in a period where when politics and violence collide, the media who loves a good conspiracy theory put two and two together and get five.  The comments made by the sherrif, while heartfelt and probably true, further linked the gunman to a political agenda.  I'm not really sure that that was the appropriate time or venue for those comments, but on the other hand, I'm sitting up here in Chicago and he's down there in Arizona, the epicenter of a very very angry atmosphere particularly over the issue of illegal immigration; maybe he has more insight into this whole thing than we do.  The congresswoman I know had worked a lot on that issue, favoring better border security coupled with providing a path to citizenship (considered a "leftist" view but one shared by Pres Bush), so if it is true that this guy was in with some white supremacist group, perhaps that is something that contributed to his motive...I don't know.

If what comes out of all of this is a general push toward more civil political discourse, then we should have conversations like this.  I respect opinions that are different from mine, but I am guilty of sometimes not having faith in the leadership of the other side.  I honestly am not sure that anyone who says that his party's main goal is to defeat the sitting President of the United States has the interests of the American people as his top priority.  If I can trust that those who have differing opinions really do want to heal this country and solve it's problems for the sake of ALL citizens, I'm fine with that.  But I'm not sure I trust their motives.

[Hemodoc]

Working together to solve our country's problems was why Obama was elected in the first place.  "Working together" did not come easily, so in the mid-terms, people once again used the ballot box to state their wishes, which were "find a way to work together and get things done."

I will give Sarah Palin the benefit of the doubt.  She comes from a culture where people use guns for sport and probably does not have a lot of experience with people who use guns for far more sinister purposes.  On the campaign trail, she tended to go to rallies that reflected her own values and experiences.  That is not a criticism, but it might have been good for her political education if she had ventured away from "small town America".  This is why she is unelectable...she has never presented herself as someone who can represent ALL Americans because I suspect that she doesn't yet fully understand people who are not like her.  Whether or not you love or hate Obama, love or hate his policies, he at least was the one who told us that there is no red American or blue America, only the United States of America.  His message was one of unity.  Palin's was not.

I would like to think that Sarah Palin looks back on her map and sees that it was perhaps unwise.  Of course, hindsight is 20/20.  I'm sure candidates on both sides have used weapon imagery in their messages, and I hope those people are feeling a bit of contrition, too.  It's perhaps unfair to zero in on Sarah Palin for criticism in this regard, but she has made herself into a very high profile person, and with that comes a modicum of duty.  If she would surface and would state in no uncertain terms that she would never again use this sort of imagery and would challenge others to do the same, that might go a long way to easing tensions.  If she wants to be a leader, this would strategically be a golden opportunity for her.

As for the WBC, they are evil and God is watching them.

Dear MooseMom, one of the greatest reasons for the outcomes of the 2010 elections is that Obama shut out the Republicans entirely for two years except for photo ops from time to time.  Working together never happened.  The Democratic majority did what ever they pleased.

For the Repblicans, Obama's comment was to the back of the bus. If we have adverse rhetoric, Obama is not at all without guilt himself.

http://renwl.org/news/black-republicans-want-obama-to-apologize-for-back-of-the-bus-crack

[MooseMom]

But the Republicans never disguised the fact that they refused to work with him.  We Americans were told by the Republican leadership that they were never invited to the party.  The Dems told us that the Republicans were the "party of no."  So what are we to do?  We did the only thing we could do...use the ballot box to once again try to get Congress to work together!

Everyone so far seems to be saying all the right things, that they've heard the American people speak and will heed the message.  But people often hear only what they want to hear, and I worry that the true message won't get through.  I don't know how much more plainly we can tell our government to stop with the bipartisanship, stop with the stunts and get on with it and find areas in which to compromise.

As for the back of the bus comment, you know, I'm really tired of people (usually media pundits) getting all lathered about one thing one person said...the use of one particular word or phrase...and being so obtuse as to not look at the intention of the comment in its entirety.  It's stupid and it's being purposely dim.

[Hemodoc]

@Hemodoc, I suspect this incident took on a political tint because the congresswoman was shot while on a "political duty", so to speak.  The killer had targeted her for some time.  We unfortunately are in a period where when politics and violence collide, the media who loves a good conspiracy theory put two and two together and get five.  The comments made by the sherrif, while heartfelt and probably true, further linked the gunman to a political agenda.  I'm not really sure that that was the appropriate time or venue for those comments, but on the other hand, I'm sitting up here in Chicago and he's down there in Arizona, the epicenter of a very very angry atmosphere particularly over the issue of illegal immigration.  The congresswoman I know had worked a lot on that issue, favoring better border security coupled with providing a path to citizenship (considered a "leftist" view but one shared by Pres Bush), so if it is true that this guy was in with some white supremacist group, perhaps that is something that contributed to his motive...I don't know.

If what comes out of all of this is a general push toward more civil political discourse, then we should have conversations like this.  I respect opinions that are different from mine, but I am guilty of sometimes not having faith in the leadership of the other side.  I honestly am not sure that anyone who says that his party's main goal is to defeat the sitting President of the United States has the interests of the American people as his top priority.  If I can trust that those who have differing opinions really do want to heal this country and solve it's problems for the sake of ALL citizens, I'm fine with that.  But I'm not sure I trust their motives.

Thank you MooseMom, you are right, if we are going to look at Sarah Palin, understanding her culture and her symbols puts these things in context.  Nevertheless, although I readily understand her culture since I am a product of that same culture, the cross hairs is a stupid political blunder, who can say anything otherwise.  I suspect it will the fellow Republicans that use this blunder in the next campaign more than anyone else because they won't be accused of liberal bias in their views.  This will be Sarah Palin's Nancy Kerrigan moment I am sure.  Actually, for her sake, stay in Alaska and forget about all of those that wish to truly revile this woman.  Folks, she is not Hitler, the devil or Stalin.  She is just a lady fed up with bloated out of control government and so are a lot of the rest of us.  Yet, for those that hate this woman, you need worry no more, just as Teddy never got over his episode, this shall be the "defining moment" no matter how she tries to push it aside, in part because the Republicans have little choice but to throw her to the dogs so to speak to keep this from sticking to them. So be it, she has a great message, but she is indeed politically naive, would anyone without indepth national experience not be naive as well?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theticket/20110110/ts_yblog_theticket/giffords-tragedy-could-be-a-defining-moment-for-palin

The message of a less restrictive government resonates well in the conservative world, but I do not believe that the message barer is necesarrily the best person to bring it to fruition.  If people can't take a look at Greece and Ireland and see that that future of continued unsustainable debt and high taxes is a failed experiement into socialism, then I am not sure where we will go in this nation.

Jerry Brown is going to increase taxes for the next 5 years in CA.  In case no one is noticing, companies in CA are vacating this state in droves.  It used to be a terrible ordeal to go to downtown LA for my monthly visits, but now the traffic moves along at over 50 miles an hour in places that it used just creep along, bumper to bumper.  People are already leaving which is a well documented exodus.  His raising taxes in the middle of an economic down turn will only worsen that situation.  Is this really the answer to a failing economy.  I already pay nearly a thousand dollars a year for my two auto registrations, and he wants to raise this even higher.  In Idaho, it is only about $40/car and that state is not broke like CA.

The Democratic governor will ask voters in a June special election to approve higher tax rates on sales, vehicles and income for five years. In his statement today, Brown referred to it as "a five-year extension of several current taxes so that we can restructure in an orderly manner." But critics are sure to call them tax hikes since taxes would be lower without any further action by the Legislature or voters.

Read more: http://blogs.sacbee.com/capitolalertlatest/2011/01/brown-to-ask-for-deep-cuts-fiv.html#ixzz1AfKFpEPX

[Hemodoc]

But the Republicans never disguised the fact that they refused to work with him.  We Americans were told by the Republican leadership that they were never invited to the party.  The Dems told us that the Republicans were the "party of no."  So what are we to do?  We did the only thing we could do...use the ballot box to once again try to get Congress to work together!

Everyone so far seems to be saying all the right things, that they've heard the American people speak and will heed the message.  But people often hear only what they want to hear, and I worry that the true message won't get through.  I don't know how much more plainly we can tell our government to stop with the bipartisanship, stop with the stunts and get on with it and find areas in which to compromise.

As for the back of the bus comment, you know, I'm really tired of people (usually media pundits) getting all lathered about one thing one person said...the use of one particular word or phrase...and being so obtuse as to not look at the intention of the comment in its entirety.  It's stupid and it's being purposely dim.

Dear MooseMom, is it OK to make such statements about the Tea Party, Republicans and conservatives, but when your OWN president says these words and is criticized by his own party, then why is that shrugged off?  If you look at the link, it was the black caucus that criticized him the most for these comments.  Isn't that at the heart of this entire thread?

I would really like to go back to gridlock myself and not let any of these bozos do much at all in Washington. I don't like the Patriot Act any more than the what has happened in the last two years.  Gridlock is probably the best I can hope from them.

[MooseMom]

"Obama comes in and starts government ownership of private corporations, firing CEO's from the White House." 

I do realize that this doesn't have anything to do with the current discussion, but I don't know where else to ask you about this.  I understand that many people hated the bailout of the auto industry.  I wasn't really pleased about it.  I felt some sympathy with the argument that if a company can't make it in this market, then it should be allowed to fail.  If terrible mismanagement puts a company on the road to bankruptcy, then so be it.

But I also had some sympathy with the opposite argument, that in this time of terrible unemployment, to allow the auto industry to collapse wasn't necessarily good for the US as a whole.  Our manufacturing base is shrinking as it is, and I didn't like the idea of allowing it to shrink any further.

I'm still not sure whether the course of action Obama took was the right one or not.  It may have been the right one because the auto industry still survives here...I guess we will never know.  But as I went back and forth about whether or not I supported this move or not, one thing that never occurred to me was that the Obama administration desired to overtake the ownership of any private corporation.  Obama himself said that he didn't want to own a car company!  That struck me as a truth founded in logic...President Obama had enough on his plate without going around and taking over big American corporations.  Why would he want to take on MORE?  So I have to ask you, do you really believe that the current administration WANTS to overtake American businesses?