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Author Topic: Should Sara Palin be held accountable?  (Read 22023 times)
MooseMom
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« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2011, 08:39:25 PM »

I heard it was a Glock 9mm, whatever that is.  Don't know much about guns.  Does that sound right?
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« Reply #51 on: January 08, 2011, 09:03:21 PM »

I heard it was a Glock 9mm, whatever that is.  Don't know much about guns.  Does that sound right?

Very common caliber and popular make.  They are too large for my hands, feels like a brick, but it is one of the most commonly used and issued by police departments.

It is not at all the most powerful handgun caliber, but it is what is used by the military at present.  When I joined the Army in 1987, we qualified with the .45 cal pistol and by the time I left the Army in 1996, we qualified with the 9 mm.  Obviously it is still a deadly weapon especially up that close as he was.

Handguns do not generate the same type of tissue damage as does a high powered rifle.  Essentially it puts a single small bullet sized hole only through the tissue with minimal disturbance of tissue outside of the initial cavity.  I had heard earlier it might have been an M-16 which is a military only weapon which generates several inches of shock wave around the cavity leaving major damage when it passes through the tissues called hydrostatic shock.  That is why they are so much more deadly.

The FBI keeps data on all shootings in America and the majority of people shot with a hand gun actually survive, up to 80% so this man must have been point blank on all of these people to have done such damage to so many people.

Once again, I would hope we could quit throwing around all of these political associated myths.  That is MUCH more dangerous than anything that this man did today.
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Peter Laird, MD
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« Reply #52 on: January 08, 2011, 09:10:37 PM »

Myth???

Giffords expressed similar concern, even before the shooting. In an interview after her office was vandalized, she referred to the animosity against her by conservatives, including Sarah Palin's decision to list Giffords' seat as one of the top "targets" in the midterm elections.
"For example, we're on Sarah Palin's targeted list, but the thing is, that the way that she has it depicted has the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district. When people do that, they have to realize that there are consequences to that action," Giffords said in an interview with MSNBC.
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« Reply #53 on: January 08, 2011, 09:21:01 PM »

Myth???

Giffords expressed similar concern, even before the shooting. In an interview after her office was vandalized, she referred to the animosity against her by conservatives, including Sarah Palin's decision to list Giffords' seat as one of the top "targets" in the midterm elections.
"For example, we're on Sarah Palin's targeted list, but the thing is, that the way that she has it depicted has the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district. When people do that, they have to realize that there are consequences to that action," Giffords said in an interview with MSNBC.

Sadly, I fear for this nation if only based on the comments I have seen today.  This is a tragedy by a nut case.  If folks wish to make more of that, then this nation will delve into political anarchy followed by loss of ALL rights.

I would think that instead of denigrating honest and hard working people like me that is being passed around with open and veiled comments about gun toting Republicans, I would hope we would stand back, pray for this nation which is on a path that none us wish to go.

I would also think that everyone that hates Palin so much would be in a complete state of glee since this pretty much seals her political destiny just as Teddy's escapade on Martha's Vineyard.

If any one can seriously look at the manifesto this man posted hours before he went out and killed all of these people and connect that with a political motivation, then I admire their imagination.

Once again, When Ronald Reagan was shot, I don't remember this polarity and absurd blame setting.  When JFK was shot, yes, I am old enough to remember that, I don't remember this type of polarity.  Perhaps we really are heading into a nation where we can no longer reason with those that we don't agree, but if that is the case, it will not be a nation any of us enjoy any longer.  I hope we are not at that point.  Have we no more common bonds any longer to rally behind a tragedy that we would use it for political bickering? 
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Peter Laird, MD
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All clinical and treatment related issues discussed on this forum are for informational purposes only.  You must always secure your own medical teams approval for all treatment options before applying any discussions on this site to your own circumstances.
MooseMom
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« Reply #54 on: January 08, 2011, 09:26:25 PM »

Interesting that you should mention, Hemodoc, that this weapon is used by the military because I heard that the shooter had been turned down by the Army.  Now that could very well be a rumor.

When JFK was shot, it was the Communists that people believed were behind the assassination.  We seem to always have to have a big bad enemy.

I don't know if we'll ever know why this guy shot those people, but if there was a political motivation, it is probably along the lines of wanting to bring down the government as opposed to wanting to send some deadly message to Democrats.  We are the government, the government is us.  We are the ones who send these people to represent us, and if someone does them harm, then it is all of us that are harmed.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 09:30:18 PM by MooseMom » Logged

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« Reply #55 on: January 08, 2011, 09:30:51 PM »

Myth???

Giffords expressed similar concern, even before the shooting. In an interview after her office was vandalized, she referred to the animosity against her by conservatives, including Sarah Palin's decision to list Giffords' seat as one of the top "targets" in the midterm elections.
"For example, we're on Sarah Palin's targeted list, but the thing is, that the way that she has it depicted has the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district. When people do that, they have to realize that there are consequences to that action," Giffords said in an interview with MSNBC.

Sadly, I fear for this nation if only based on the comments I have seen today.  This is a tragedy by a nut case.  If folks wish to make more of that, then this nation will delve into political anarchy followed by loss of ALL rights.

I would think that instead of denigrating honest and hard working people like me that is being passed around with open and veiled comments about gun toting Republicans, I would hope we would stand back, pray for this nation which is on a path that none us wish to go.

I would also think that everyone that hates Palin so much would be in a complete state of glee since this pretty much seals her political destiny just as Teddy's escapade on Martha's Vineyard.

If any one can seriously look at the manifesto this man posted hours before he went out and killed all of these people and connect that with a political motivation, then I admire their imagination.

Once again, When Ronald Reagan was shot, I don't remember this polarity and absurd blame setting.  When JFK was shot, yes, I am old enough to remember that, I don't remember this type of polarity.  Perhaps we really are heading into a nation where we can no longer reason with those that we don't agree, but if that is the case, it will not be a nation any of us enjoy any longer.  I hope we are not at that point.  Have we no more common bonds any longer to rally behind a tragedy that we would use it for political bickering?

Okay, hop on down from your high horse.  Now focus...The point of this is that politicians (on both sides) have been making what I consider very reckless statements that could possibly endanger others without any recourse at all.  I said that this could be a complete coincidence.  I thought it was extremely reckless and possibly dangerous when she originally did it and was sickened by todays event.  My question is that IF he was in any way influenced by Palin's map then should she be held accountable in any way? I am not saying in what manner, I was asking in ANY manner?

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Hemodoc
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« Reply #56 on: January 08, 2011, 10:18:48 PM »

Myth???

Giffords expressed similar concern, even before the shooting. In an interview after her office was vandalized, she referred to the animosity against her by conservatives, including Sarah Palin's decision to list Giffords' seat as one of the top "targets" in the midterm elections.
"For example, we're on Sarah Palin's targeted list, but the thing is, that the way that she has it depicted has the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district. When people do that, they have to realize that there are consequences to that action," Giffords said in an interview with MSNBC.

Sadly, I fear for this nation if only based on the comments I have seen today.  This is a tragedy by a nut case.  If folks wish to make more of that, then this nation will delve into political anarchy followed by loss of ALL rights.

I would think that instead of denigrating honest and hard working people like me that is being passed around with open and veiled comments about gun toting Republicans, I would hope we would stand back, pray for this nation which is on a path that none us wish to go.

I would also think that everyone that hates Palin so much would be in a complete state of glee since this pretty much seals her political destiny just as Teddy's escapade on Martha's Vineyard.

If any one can seriously look at the manifesto this man posted hours before he went out and killed all of these people and connect that with a political motivation, then I admire their imagination.

Once again, When Ronald Reagan was shot, I don't remember this polarity and absurd blame setting.  When JFK was shot, yes, I am old enough to remember that, I don't remember this type of polarity.  Perhaps we really are heading into a nation where we can no longer reason with those that we don't agree, but if that is the case, it will not be a nation any of us enjoy any longer.  I hope we are not at that point.  Have we no more common bonds any longer to rally behind a tragedy that we would use it for political bickering?

Okay, hop on down from your high horse.  Now focus...The point of this is that politicians (on both sides) have been making what I consider very reckless statements that could possibly endanger others without any recourse at all.  I said that this could be a complete coincidence.  I thought it was extremely reckless and possibly dangerous when she originally did it and was sickened by todays event.  My question is that IF he was in any way influenced by Palin's map then should she be held accountable in any way? I am not saying in what manner, I was asking in ANY manner?

We have at least two threads on the same subject.  Okarol just posted one of his rants on the other thread.  Once again, why are talking politics when a lunatic did this that probably is not only unstable but sounds like a paranoid schizophrenic.  Will have to wait and see what his psychiatric diagnosis is, but to associate this with politics is not appropriate in my opinion.  No high horse here, just saddened to see the association made at all in this tragic situation. Once again, have we really fallen that far?  People sling accusations so quickly today that cause a great deal of harm.  That is not a good trait for any nation.  Once again, what about the absurd death threats against the Palin girl for being a finalist on dancing with the stars. This sort of talk is not going to help the situation and we become even more polarized and unable to reason with each other.  Then we are ALL in trouble.  Is that where all want to head?
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Peter Laird, MD
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Diagnosed with IgA nephropathy 1998
Incenter Dialysis starting 2-1-2007
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Started  Home Care with NxStage 6-2-2009 (Qb 370, FF 45%, 40L)

All clinical and treatment related issues discussed on this forum are for informational purposes only.  You must always secure your own medical teams approval for all treatment options before applying any discussions on this site to your own circumstances.
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« Reply #57 on: January 09, 2011, 12:51:18 AM »

Did Briston Palin really get death threats for being on Dancing with the Stars???  That's just beyond stupid.  That's downright cruel.  I despise cruelty in people.  I am the first person to give someone the benefit of the doubt or to try to find the good in someone, but I truly cannot ever defend cruelty.  And I also hate it when someone is out to humiliate someone else.  I don't like seeing anyone being made fun of.
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« Reply #58 on: January 09, 2011, 11:15:53 AM »

I think this review of political violence is very helpful.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/01/the-cloudy-logic-of-political-shootings/69147/

Peter I think you're putting forward a false equivalencey to say the rhetoric is the same on both sides of the aisle. That Cantor situation case in point: "A Richmond Police detective was assigned to the case. A preliminary investigation shows that a bullet was fired into the air and struck the window in a downward direction". A bullet is randomly fired in the air somewhere in Ohio Virginia and the left is as vitriolic as the right? The rhetoric on the right, from the most prominent figures on the right, is of a magnitude difference than anything that was said by the left against Bush through an election decided by the Supreme Court, and the long 8 years of improbable bungling. The language of delegitimization and demonization of Barack Obama are in a different league.

That is the milieu that this happened in, just as the Kennedy assassination happened in the milieu of hatred that was Dallas 1963.
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« Reply #59 on: January 09, 2011, 12:14:01 PM »


[/quote] From YL Guy

Give me a break. Someone with Sara's popularity should not be putting cross-hares on people.  It is reckless.  Politicians on both sides are rarely held accountable for their ludicrous statements.  The shooter was caught.  It could be that he never even heard of her map. 

Imagine if one of your family members was "targeted"?  Would you still feel the same way? Would you? Honestly!
[/quote]

YL Guy I think your post has put the subject of this thread in the right perspective. This thread has given me far more
background information than that reported in the English Media. I think that even if the incident had never taken place  Sarah Palin's cross hair map was an act of gross irresponsibility.

Sarah Palin is a totally brainless airhead. Most people without a brain are not dangerous but she most certainly is! You had a male version as your last president remember? and we had the global village idiot Tony Blair.

It's a sad reflection of our western world that we elect people for public office based on personality cult rather than on a serious analysis on their home and foreign policies and their political and personal integrity. As for the shooting, shouldn't Americans be looking at their over liberal laws towards firearms possession?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 12:19:11 PM by Ken Shelmerdine » Logged

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« Reply #60 on: January 09, 2011, 12:16:20 PM »

I think this review of political violence is very helpful.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/01/the-cloudy-logic-of-political-shootings/69147/

Peter I think you're putting forward a false equivalencey to say the rhetoric is the same on both sides of the aisle. That Cantor situation case in point: "A Richmond Police detective was assigned to the case. A preliminary investigation shows that a bullet was fired into the air and struck the window in a downward direction". A bullet is randomly fired in the air somewhere in Ohio Virginia and the left is as vitriolic as the right? The rhetoric on the right, from the most prominent figures on the right, is of a magnitude difference than anything that was said by the left against Bush through an election decided by the Supreme Court, and the long 8 years of improbable bungling. The language of delegitimization and demonization of Barack Obama are in a different league.

That is the milieu that this happened in, just as the Kennedy assassination happened in the milieu of hatred that was Dallas 1963.

Bill, as you know, I am not a fan of ANY of the politicians, right or left for the evidence of corruption on both sides is quite evident and the representation of the people is sadly few and far between.  I won't list these things, people would just take them out of context of what I am saying.

Today, politics at the level of the street so to speak is filled with rhetoric and ignorance really on both sides, and stirring up anger to stimulate the respective base is the modus operandi of most politicians today, instead of the statesmen approach we had by many years ago.  Audio-visual sound bites now predominate the landscape.

Interestingly, that sound bite mentality is probably in part what led Palin to use her ill fated target cross hair poster.  It will likely go down in history as one of the greatest political mistakes in American history.  Both the Republicans and the Democrats will never let her live this down.  Coming from Alaska and understanding a bit of the frontier mentality of Alaska the Palin is likewise from, I really don't believe she ever meant to incite violence or anything that happened.  Yet, again, I believe that this will be Palin's Nancy Kerrigan moment in Disneyland that echoes around the world.

The only way the Republicans will be able to get back on track is to offer up Palin as a sacrifice which many on the Republican side will gladly do.

So we all see through the glass of our own liking, but truly, the political rhetoric I hear in campaigns on both sides now truly sickens me since none of them address the real issues before us.  As Europe burns in economic debt nearing collapse, both the Democrats and the Republicans have brought us to the the brink of that same abyss. They have both used the tax payers treasury as a slush fund for political favors to get reelected.  How long shall a nation with these practices last?  The history of democracies goes through many steps, all to the same end, a totalitarian dictatorship.  I thought we had that with Bush and the Patriot Act, etc, then Obama comes in and starts government ownership of private corporations, firing CEO's from the White House.  Who wins?  Who loses? In my opinion, us grunts at the bottom of the system are not at all in the winners circle with this mess we call the American political system.

So, yes, I am a concervative, but I really couldn't name a single person that represents me.  All I see is the large corporate influences and global influences in all of them.

In any case, not to ramble, but what do we really have of the political process that our founders left us as "we the people."  I find it harder and harder to find that in all of this rabble day by day.  Sadly, we the people are beginning to have less and less in common with each other.  Unless all of this reverses, I don't see good outcomes for the future of my kids generation.
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Peter Laird, MD
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All clinical and treatment related issues discussed on this forum are for informational purposes only.  You must always secure your own medical teams approval for all treatment options before applying any discussions on this site to your own circumstances.
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« Reply #61 on: January 09, 2011, 12:28:38 PM »




Give me a break. Someone with Sara's popularity should not be putting cross-hares on people.  It is reckless.  Politicians on both sides are rarely held accountable for their ludicrous statements.  The shooter was caught.  It could be that he never even heard of her map. 

Imagine if one of your family members was "targeted"?  Would you still feel the same way? Would you? Honestly!
[/quote]

YL Guy I think your post has put the subject of this thread in the right perspective. This thread has given me far more
background information than that reported in the English Media. I think that even if the incident had never taken place  Sarah Palin's cross hair map was an act of gross irresponsibility.

Sarah Palin is a totally brainless airhead. Most people without a brain are not dangerous but she most certainly is! You had a male version as your last president remember? and we had the global village idiot Tony Blair.

It's a sad reflection of our western world that we elect people for public office based on personality cult rather than on a serious analysis on their home and foreign policies and their political and personal integrity. As for the shooting, shouldn't Americans be looking at their over liberal laws towards firearms possession?
[/quote]

Sadly, the rate of mass killings is the same in nations with and without strict gun restrictions.  CA has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the nation and the criminals have more guns than ever, yet the law abiding citizens are the only ones restricted.  It is not Idaho that my wife was almost mugged my friend, but here less than a mile from home in CA.  We walk around Idaho which allows ownership of machine guns and silencers without any problems at all. Can you imagine a thief doing a home invasion on people that own machine guns?  Doesn't happen much at all in Idaho my friend. Here in CA with very restrictive gun laws, we had a home invasion robbery one block away from our house. By the way, Giffords is an outspoken advocate for access to guns and gun rights in Arizona.  Once again, one more political discussion stemming from a lunatic out of control.  But the current unthinking manipulative political system we have today shall certainly take advantage of this not immediately, but it will be there.

For those of us in America that are responsible gun owners used to protect us against truly wild animals and self defense as well, we are over all, guiet, unassuming in our adherence to this great privilege most nations no longer have.  I don't recall England any more having bears, wolves, mountain lions or grizzly bears that are a part of the outdoors in northern Idaho and Alaska.  Once again, it is a mindset that is becoming a lost way of life to live off of the land that is a part of the way people in these areas support their families with food and salmon for instance.  The urban world has no clue to this sort of life anymore.  Believe it or not, where I went to high school in Maine, people had rifles hanging on the back window of their trucks back in the 1970s and would sometimes come to school after going out hunting first.  We didn't shoot up the schools back in those days.

So, a sad tragic event will most likely best be remembered by the political fallout and not the tragedy itself.
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Peter Laird, MD
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Started  Home Care with NxStage 6-2-2009 (Qb 370, FF 45%, 40L)

All clinical and treatment related issues discussed on this forum are for informational purposes only.  You must always secure your own medical teams approval for all treatment options before applying any discussions on this site to your own circumstances.
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« Reply #62 on: January 09, 2011, 12:54:55 PM »

Maybe there is a thread about it somewhere else but Peter, with your background do you share the critique of Palin's Discovery Show that it revealed she had not spent much time hunting?

Back to topic I think the rhetoric of the Tea Party should be part of this discussion. You can see it in people's Facebook status. Just everyday connections who I don't think of as being very political painting political differences in terms of doomsday’s and Armageddons. They say or quote approvingly that it's not that their political opponents are wrong it's that they're illegitimate in the same way the monarchy was illegitimate. To me I don't know what to make of people's casting the last two years as undemocratic and not in keeping with our Republic's history.

It's like there is two different realities, that's the most worrying thing. I see a decisively won election and an issue central to the campaign getting passed and signed into law - health care access reform. I see that legislation being passed largely as it was described during the campaign and as being subject to one year of debate.

The debt is very relevant to this board because Medicare and the assumptions you make about Medicare spending is the biggest part of the problem - not the only part  but the part that needs to be addressed if the debt is to be stabilized. Medicare is about our grandparents making us pay for their healthcare through the legislative process - we dialyzors got caught up in it but it isn't some great conspiracy. We inherited obligation along with all our nation's positive endowments. How to decide how much debt we can carry (at a time of near zero inflation and the dollar is the World's only credible currency for the foreseeable future) is a political problem, it is not a problem that calls for revolution.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 12:58:17 PM by Bill Peckham » Logged

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« Reply #63 on: January 09, 2011, 01:18:55 PM »

Maybe there is a thread about it somewhere else but Peter, with your background do you share the critique of Palin's Discovery Show that it revealed she had not spent much time hunting?

Back to topic I think the rhetoric of the Tea Party should be part of this discussion. You can see it in people's Facebook status. Just everyday connections who I don't think of as being very political painting political differences in terms of doomsday’s and Armageddons. They say or quote approvingly that it's not that their political opponents are wrong it's that they're illegitimate in the same way the monarchy was illegitimate. To me I don't know what to make of people's casting the last two years as undemocratic and not in keeping with our Republic's history.

It's like there is two different realities, that's the most worrying thing. I see a decisively won election and an issue central to the campaign getting passed and signed into law - health care access reform. I see that legislation being passed largely as it was described during the campaign and as being subject to one year of debate.

The debt is very relevant to this board because Medicare and the assumptions you make about Medicare spending is the biggest part of the problem - not the only part  but the part that needs to be addressed if the debt is to be stabilized. Medicare is about our grandparents making us pay for their healthcare through the legislative process - we dialyzors got caught up in it but it isn't some great conspiracy. We inherited obligation along with all our nation's positive endowments. How to decide how much debt we can carry (at a time of near zero inflation and the dollar is the World's only credible currency for the foreseeable future) is a political problem, it is not a problem that calls for revolution.

When did I ever call of for revolution?  When did the Tea Party folks call for Revolution?  Certainly not, they are instead calling for a return to the power of the people and that is what the overwhelming election in November of 2010 was all about, rejecting the approach that Obama took the last two years.  Just because we have nut cases that wish to portray returning to constitutional standards as "revolution" that is no manner what the majority of us conservative folks are looking for.  We simply want to be able to earn our living and support our families with out undo government interference.  Yes there are fringe folks that people like to use as the example of what a Tea Party person, but Bill, when have you ever heard me, Peter Laird ever call for a revolution?

Once again, this is simple the type of political rhetoric that makes people angry at the opposition and not able to see that in reality, when it comes to day to day living, we all have the same stake in the same pie.  Americans in general do not want to live under socialism the way that Europe and other nations have adopted.  Most people in America simply want to go to work and support their own families without undo taxation and regulatory restrictions.  Is that revolution?  Sorry, but you really lost me on that Bill.
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« Reply #64 on: January 09, 2011, 01:24:56 PM »

The political rhetoric of today is perhaps the biggest part of this tragic news story.  Just the title of this thread speaks to that issue alone.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/09/pima-county-sheriff-sets-debate-price-free-speech/
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« Reply #65 on: January 09, 2011, 02:36:43 PM »

Another commentary on the danger of the political rhetoric, NY Times this time.

The problem here doesn’t lie with the activists like most of those who populate the Tea Parties, ordinary citizens who are doing what citizens are supposed to do — engaging in a conversation about the direction of the country. Rather, the problem would seem to rest with the political leaders who pander to the margins of the margins, employing whatever words seem likely to win them contributions or TV time, with little regard for the consequences. . .

Contrast that with one of John McCain’s finer moments as a presidential candidate in 2008, when a woman at a Minnesota town hall meeting asserted that Mr. Obama was a closeted Arab. “No, ma’am, he’s not,” Mr. McCain quickly replied, taking back the microphone. “He’s a decent family man, citizen, that I just happen to have disagreements with.” Mr. McCain was harking back to a different moment in American politics, in which such disagreements could be intense without becoming existential clashes in which the freedom of the country was at stake.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/us/politics/09bai.html?hp

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« Reply #66 on: January 09, 2011, 03:12:32 PM »

Maybe there is a thread about it somewhere else but Peter, with your background do you share the critique of Palin's Discovery Show that it revealed she had not spent much time hunting?

Back to topic I think the rhetoric of the Tea Party should be part of this discussion. You can see it in people's Facebook status. Just everyday connections who I don't think of as being very political painting political differences in terms of doomsday’s and Armageddons. They say or quote approvingly that it's not that their political opponents are wrong it's that they're illegitimate in the same way the monarchy was illegitimate. To me I don't know what to make of people's casting the last two years as undemocratic and not in keeping with our Republic's history.

It's like there is two different realities, that's the most worrying thing. I see a decisively won election and an issue central to the campaign getting passed and signed into law - health care access reform. I see that legislation being passed largely as it was described during the campaign and as being subject to one year of debate.

The debt is very relevant to this board because Medicare and the assumptions you make about Medicare spending is the biggest part of the problem - not the only part  but the part that needs to be addressed if the debt is to be stabilized. Medicare is about our grandparents making us pay for their healthcare through the legislative process - we dialyzors got caught up in it but it isn't some great conspiracy. We inherited obligation along with all our nation's positive endowments. How to decide how much debt we can carry (at a time of near zero inflation and the dollar is the World's only credible currency for the foreseeable future) is a political problem, it is not a problem that calls for revolution.

When did I ever call of for revolution?  When did the Tea Party folks call for Revolution?  Certainly not, they are instead calling for a return to the power of the people and that is what the overwhelming election in November of 2010 was all about, rejecting the approach that Obama took the last two years.  Just because we have nut cases that wish to portray returning to constitutional standards as "revolution" that is no manner what the majority of us conservative folks are looking for.  We simply want to be able to earn our living and support our families with out undo government interference.  Yes there are fringe folks that people like to use as the example of what a Tea Party person, but Bill, when have you ever heard me, Peter Laird ever call for a revolution?

Once again, this is simple the type of political rhetoric that makes people angry at the opposition and not able to see that in reality, when it comes to day to day living, we all have the same stake in the same pie.  Americans in general do not want to live under socialism the way that Europe and other nations have adopted.  Most people in America simply want to go to work and support their own families without undo taxation and regulatory restrictions.  Is that revolution?  Sorry, but you really lost me on that Bill.

I didn't say you specifically Peter, I referenced the all too common language that people use, for instance in their FB updates (I don't recall you being much of a FB user so I"m not sure why you would take this to mean you). This is very common misuse of laguage and indeed you used some of that rhetoric here. Reread your language: "brink of that same abyss. They have both used the tax payers treasury as a slush fund for political favors to get reelected.  How long shall a nation with these practices last?  The history of democracies goes through many steps, all to the same end, a totalitarian dictatorship."

If I thought our polity was literally on the brink of an abyss or on the verge of a totalitarian dictatorship then I would be thinking about revolution. Loosing an election is not the same as living under a dictatorship. If you believe our politicians are unredeemably corrupt then that would seem to allow for any behavior. The example of this on the left would be in the '70s with the SLA and such. Do you really believe we are or were on the brink of a dictatorship? Do you believe that if the 2010 election had returned Nancy Pelosi to the Speaker we would be living under a defacto dictatorship?
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« Reply #67 on: January 09, 2011, 03:23:39 PM »


With his background it is not likely he was the one that purchased the weapons.


Unfortunately, he was the person who purchased the gun:

"The court documents say that Mr. Loughner purchased the semiautomatic Glock pistol used at the shooting at Sportsman’s Warehouse in Tucson on Nov. 30."
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/10/us/politics/10giffords.html?hp
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« Reply #68 on: January 09, 2011, 03:35:59 PM »

Bill, I spent nine years in the US Army for the purpose of paying for my education.  When I joined the military, I was a Boston liberal voting fro Ted Kennedy and Mike Dukakis since I was from Massachusets and did my schooling in Boston.  In the course of my time taking care of US soldiers, I had the opportunity to talk to hundreds if not thousands of them and what they had done in the military.  I left the Army a changed man in part by learning of how many people value liberty for this nation and those around the world that they are willing to die for that freedom.  It was a powerful message that I heard from so many.

Liberty I am afraid is a concept that few in this nation any longer understand and all too many take for granted.  The type of polarization of political beliefs all tied to instant labels is a danger to this nation that was founded on the principles of the rule of law.  If we disagree over those laws, then work together, LAWFULLY, to change them.

The current political theatre on both sides of the wagon undermine these principles and foundations.  I like the example from the quote above about John McCain in the campaign from the NYT. We are losing our civility and our common bonds that we share as a nation.  If you do look at the history of democracy which is about a 3000 year old concept, they followed very common paths to their end which was always a tyrannical dictatorship.  It is one of the inherant deficiencies of a democracy and that is why the founding fathers rejected democracy for a republic, not based on the rule of the majority but based on the rule of law.

What has been the common failing path of democracies before us, when the people learned that they could raid the treasury through the power of the majority, the economics led down the wrong path to economic, then political and military ruin.  The economics of the grand depts we have in my opinion are very dangeous and even Giffords made that as her primary concern when she returned to congress last week.  Her last interview just happened to be on Fox news.

http://www.businessinsider.com/gabrielle-giffods-on-fox-news-2011-1

So, freedom and liberty are a very precious commodity that is very, very fragile as history has taught us.  If Americans cannot reason amongst ourselves, how shall we rule over this land with liberty?  The hatred and vitriol between the different political fractions of America are a great danger in the manner in which they are being manipulated, not by the grunts like you and me Bill that probably agree on 90% or more of our day to day interactions, but by those that will use our anger to achieve their political ends without thought or real fear of the long term consequences. I would say that I speak for the majority of the so called "Tea Party" who simply want government to restrain their excesses.

Once again, I really think that the NYT article I linked to above is a great starting point for this conversation.

God bless,

Peter
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« Reply #69 on: January 09, 2011, 03:40:42 PM »


With his background it is not likely he was the one that purchased the weapons.


Unfortunately, he was the person who purchased the gun:

"The court documents say that Mr. Loughner purchased the semiautomatic Glock pistol used at the shooting at Sportsman’s Warehouse in Tucson on Nov. 30."
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/10/us/politics/10giffords.html?hp

That will only make it a further uphill battle for law abiding citizens like me to keep these wonderful privileges we have here in America of gun ownership and the right to keep and bare arms.

What can we do to keep nutcases like this from mulitplying like they appear to be doing lately.  This man got close enough that he could easily have killed her with a knife if he didn't have access to a gun.  In many nations, that is how political assasinations occur even today, look at Imelda Marcos with an attacker against her with a machete.  Look at Julius Caesar, it is people that kill and will use what ever instrument they can secure to do so.  Isn't that the real underlying problem even in nations with strict gun control?
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« Reply #70 on: January 09, 2011, 03:51:10 PM »

But that's just it Peter, there is wide political agreement that our debt trajectory is unsustainable. However, I say we are not so delicate that having a mortgage in excess of our annual income is some existential problem. It just seems unjustified to be concerned for the very existence of our republic at a time of US hegemony. We, like our forefathers, will pass on financial obligations to the next generation but we are also passing on the ability to meet those obligations.


It's the overwrought language of the urgency needed to address our supposed loss of liberty that is so concerning.  I don't believe having a certain level of national debt is cause for this much alarm. I don't believe that we are better off defaulting than raising the debt ceiling, for instance. But the point is that this is a political discussion. Figuring out a solution is well within the bounds of what our political system has dealt with in the past. Our level of debt isn't a sign that we are in the last crumbling days of Nero.
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« Reply #71 on: January 09, 2011, 04:05:47 PM »

I agree that people who stand to gain power and influence (and, so, money) manipulate us.  We need to guard against that.

A quick comment about "liberty"...there has been a lot of discussion in our politics about liberty and freedom and personal responsibility.  The element that seems to be lacking in these discussions is the element of social responsibility, the good of people other than ourselves and the idea of looking after one another.  I can't help but believe that when some people talk about "liberty", they are really saying, "Screw the rest of you."  Our population is growing and and changing and we are becoming increasingly interconnected.  It is not easy to live all alone in the North Woods somewhere without your existence in some way impacting that of someone else.

I think the mandate for everyone to buy health insurance is indicative of this.  I can understand how someone might not want to be forced by the government to buy heath insurance.  It does seem to fly in the face of "liberty". But I personally believe that it is our social duty to make sure we are all insured and contribute to the pot so that someone who does get sick or is hurt in an accident can have access to affordable care.  We all pay our taxes so that we can have police and fire protection. 

Re guns...we as a society have decided that barring certain restrictions, we have a right to own a gun.  This is the choice that we have made, and we have to live with the consequences of that choice.  If someone legally has a gun and flips out and shoots a bunch of people, we can mourn but we as a society have to take responsibility for that societal choice.  We have a lot of laws in place that are supposed to keep people like this gunman from buying a gun, but people break laws every day so that they can make a buck.  That's probably what happened here.

Re McCain, I did not vote for him, but I vastly admired his answer to the woman who questioned Obama's character.  Something has happened to Senator McCain.  He has lost his honor somewhere along the way since 2008.  He has become angry and bitter, and I really hate to see that.
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« Reply #72 on: January 09, 2011, 05:22:42 PM »

How others see us...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/gabrielle-giffords-is-the-victim-of-a-debased-political-culture-2180268.html
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« Reply #73 on: January 09, 2011, 06:50:14 PM »



Give me a break. Someone with Sara's popularity should not be putting cross-hares on people.  It is reckless.  Politicians on both sides are rarely held accountable for their ludicrous statements.  The shooter was caught.  It could be that he never even heard of her map. 

Imagine if one of your family members was "targeted"?  Would you still feel the same way? Would you? Honestly!


It wasnt reckless and it had nothing to do with what happened.  In no way shape or form was it a reference to guns nor taking someones life.



In fact lets look at a little article from a couple years ago on the very liberal site, thedailykos

June 25 2008 dailykos


Who to primary? Well, I'd argue that we can narrow the target list by looking at those Democrats who sold out the Constitution Last week.


Ackerman, Gary (NY-05)
Altmire, Jason (PA-04)
Arcuri, Mike (NY-24)
Baca, Joe (CA-43)
Baird, Brian (WA-03)
Barrow, John (GA-12)
Bean, Melissa (IL-08)
Berkley, Shelley (NV-01)
Berman, Howard (CA-28)
Berry, Marion (AR-01)
Bishop, Sanford (GA-02)
Bishop, Timothy (NY-01)
Boren, Dan (OK-02)
Boswell, Leonard (IA-03)
Boucher, Rick (VA-09)
Boyd, Allen (FL-02)
Boyda, Nancy (KS-02)
Brown, Corrine (FL-03)
Butterfield, G.K. (NC-01)
Cardoza, Dennis (CA-18)
Carney, Chris (PA-10)
Castor, Kathy (FL-11)
Cazayoux, Don (LA-06)
Chandler, Ben (KY-06)
Childers, Travis (MS-01)
Cleaver, Emanuel (MO-05)
Clyburn, James (SC-06)
Cooper, Jim (TN-05)
Costa, Jim (CA-20)
Cramer, Bud (AL-05)
Crowley, Joe (NY-07)
Cuellar, Henry (TX-28)
Davis, Artur (AL-07)
Davis, Lincoln (TN-04)
Dicks, Norman (WA-06)
   

Donnelly, Joe (IN-02)
Edwards, Chet (TX-17)
Ellsworth, Brad (IN-08)
Emanuel, Rahm (IL-05)
Engel, Elliot (NY-17)
Etheridge, Bob (NC-02)
Giffords, Gabrielle (AZ-08)
Gillibrand, Kirsten (NY-20)
Gordon, Bart (TN-06)
Green, AL (TX-09)
Green, Gene (TX-29)
Gutierrez, Luis (IL-04)
Harman, Jane (CA-36)
Hastings, Alcee (FL-23)
Herseth Sandlin, S. (SD-AL)
Higgins, Brian (NY-27)
Hinojosa, Ruben (TX-15)
Holden, Tim (PA-17)
Hoyer, Steny (MD-05)
Kanjorski, Paul (PA-11)
Kildee, Dale (MI-05)
Kind, Ron (WI-03)
Klein, Ron (FL-22)
Lampson, Nick (TX-22)
Langevin, JIm (RI-02)
Lipinski, Dan (IL-03)
Lowey, Nita (NY-18)
Mahoney, Tim (FL-16)
Marshall, Jim (GA-08)
Matheson, Jim (UT-02)
McCarthy, Carolyn (NY-04)
McIntyre, Mike (NC-07)
McNerney, Jerry (CA-11)
Meeks, Gregory (NY-06)
Melancon, Charlie (LA-03)
   

Mitchell, Harry (AZ-05)
Moore, Dennis (KS-03)
Murphy, Patrick (PA-08)
Murtha, John (PA-12)
Ortiz, Solomon (TX-27)
Nancy Pelosi (CA-08)
Perlmutter, Ed (CO-07)
Peterson, Colin (MN-07)
Pomeroy, Earl (ND-AL)
Rahall, Nick (WV-03)
Reyes, Silvestre (TX-16)
Richardson, Laura (CA-37)
Rodriguez, Ciro (TX-23)
Ross, Mike (AR-04)
Ruppesberger, Dutch (MD-02)
Salazar, John (CO-03)
Schiff, Adam (CA-29)
Scott, David (GA-13)
Sestak, Joe (PA-07)
Sherman, Brad (CA-27)
Shuler, Heath (NC-11)
Sires, Albio (NJ-13)
Skelton, Ike (MO-04)
Smith, Adam (WA-09)
Snyder, Vic (AR-02)
Space, Zach (OH-18)
Spratt, John (SC-05)
Stupak, Bart (MI-01)
Tanner, John (TN-08)
Ellen Tauscher (CA-10)
Taylor, Gene (MS-04)
Thompson, Bennie (MS-02)
Udall, Mark (CO-02)
Wilson, Charles (OH-06)
Yarmuth, John (KY-03

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/25/1204/74882/511/541568



From a former classmate of Loughner,

“As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy,” the former classmate, Caitie Parker, wrote in a series of Twitter feeds Saturday. “I haven’t seen him since ’07 though. He became very reclusive.”

“He was a political radical & met Giffords once before in ’07, asked her a question & he told me she was ‘stupid & unintelligent,’ ” she wrote.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/us/politics/09shooter.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&hp


More from the daily kos.  This was posted on their site a few days ago, they quickly pulled it after this incident.  (Item attached)






So using that rational that Palin takes blame I guess we can put the blame before that on the dailykos for their "target list" and the Obama Administration since it was the one who ok'd the individual to buy the gun.


Or in reality it was the guy was a nut job who obviously did it of his own accord and his own accord alone.   Personally I go with the reality thing. 


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« Reply #74 on: January 09, 2011, 07:16:01 PM »

 :thumbup;

“As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy,” the former classmate, Caitie Parker, wrote in a series of Twitter feeds Saturday. “I haven’t seen him since ’07 though. He became very reclusive.”

“He was a political radical & met Giffords once before in ’07, asked her a question & he told me she was ‘stupid & unintelligent,’ ” she wrote.

I love it, a left wing radical taking out the fiscally conservative blue dog Democrat for being too conservative :clap; :clap; :clap; :clap; :2thumbsup; :2thumbsup; :2thumbsup;

Well, is political rhetoric the way we should go?  Then let's take the spin above and let it run its course if that is what folks wish to do.

No, forgive me for making fun of a terrible tragedy, but we are on a thread blaming a completely innocent person and this is a liberal nut job, not a conservative nut job.  Should we now go forth in glee because it was one of your nut jobs?

No, I think that we should all stare into the face of the immature and de-humanizing myths folks are pushing on both sides of the aisle and act like adults if we can that anymore.

The rhetoric is dangerous and has consequences.  Perhaps everyone in the world recognizes what we don't.  I myself would like to see it end.  If folks wish to discuss real issues with passion, so be it, but I am getting tired of all of the myths about people like me and vice versa.

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