Transplant Surgery abroad is not the same in every country

[Sara]

Mitch was suggesting things that were illegal.  Don't you ever get tired of being so buddy-buddy with Mitch?  Is there some sort of financial incentive for you vouching for his services?

[Sluff]

Like I said before... quit responding, then Mitch and Stauffenberg would be left talking to eachother. Simple plan really.

[livecam]

This is my last post in this thread.  I did a little research just for fun the other day and found a couple of interesting facts.  Transplants in the Philippines are available without going through your organ broker Mitch or anyone like him.  I'm talking about reputable medical facilities where there is no middleman involved.  Just for the record the price is less than half what our buddy is quoting.  I in no way would ever suggest that anyone here would consider such a thing but it was time to separate the facts from the...  Now with that said I hope this thread goes quietly into the night, never to be heard from again.

[sandman]

This is my last post in this thread.  I did a little research just for fun the other day and found a couple of interesting facts.  Transplants in the Philippines are available without going through your organ broker Mitch or anyone like him.  I'm talking about reputable medical facilities where there is no middleman involved.  Just for the record the price is less than half what our buddy is quoting.  I in no way would ever suggest that anyone here would consider such a thing but it was time to separate the facts from the...  Now with that said I hope this thread goes quietly into the night, never to be heard from again.

Mind if I quote this on angies forums sir?

[mitchorganbroker]

To Sara and Meadowlands,
   Stop imagining things. My help was only to tell you what I wrote. I said to ask your Philippine relatives and the Barangay( neighborhood) captain(leader). That's it. That was my help. Now I am beginning to think that the starving Philippine baby is better off not being adopted by you both.
 Sara- the next time you want to post nonsense, first take the Pope's picture off your page.
____________________________________________________________
Sandman, did you notice that guy didn't provide names, phone numbers or the link to his internet research on Philippine Transplants . ?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Livecam , "you say you ain't coming back to this thread ?" Fine, but can you take Sara and Meadowlands with you.?
 You said something about "I'm talking about reputable medical facilities ".  Prove it with names , phone numbers or admit that you are ,among other things, a liar.
---------------------------------------------

[stauffenberg]

Livecam, as I explained at length in an earlier post, if you try to deal with poor Philippine doctors and hospital officials on your own, you have absolutely no leverage to keep them from taking you for every penny they can get.  I heard their price triple in less than five minutes after my wife accidentally revealed how much money we had to spend.  The local doctors will assume that because you are from the West and in desperate need of a kidney, you can and will spend anything.  The main thing you are paying a transplant facilitator like Mitch for is his extensive network of contacts with a variety of transplant doctors and hospitals in the Philippines which permits him to have some bargaining leverage with the Filipinos in order to keep the price under the amount he has agreed with you will be your fee.  Alone you have no leverage: you are a dying renal patient who is a 'millionaire' by local standards, and the surgeons have access to the life-saving kidney you need.  With Mitch you have someone who is not desperate, not exploitable, has extensive contacts, knows how the local culture and medical world operates, and has the power to tell a greedy surgeon he will lose his deal entirely unless he accepts Mitch's offer, since Mitch has other contacts he can use instead.

[Panda_9]

As far as Im concerned there is a major lack of any form of law or authority in the philliphines from what Ive heard. I would never ever ever seek a transplant from there. Now if I were a drug smuggler that would be an entirely different story!

[geoffcamp]

Seems to be a lot of asinine accusations being thrown around in this thread. 

Facts and only the facts.   .  There is no need for people to try and emotionally charge the issues.

BigSky,

This is the whole problem with this entire thread.  There are no facts only opinions.  Mitch can not show us his facts for fear that we will by pass his services and go directly to the surgeons and make our own deal and as far as I know (please correct me if I am wrong and provide the facts) there are no case studies or statistics for any of the services Mitch is offering.  So all we have to go by is our emotions.  And the fact that Mitch is now going though our old posts and using them to continue discussion, flaming and just plain interest in this thread is going to get some highly charged defensive reactions (in my opinion exactly what Mitch wants).  In fact a long time ago in this tread I asked for just the facts but there are none.  There are a lot of credible (to some) articles in medical and non-medical journals as Mallory has provided but other then that facts seem very scarce here.  I hope you don't take this wrong but I am merely saying that when given the idea that no raw data from credible sources can be provided by Mitch and then the fact that he is using our posts from other sections to continue interest in this thread it is no wonder why members get hurt, angry and down right mad and make some of the posts you have read.  I have learned and I am sure others will very soon that we have all the information we are going to get and we will make up our minds accordingly.  I have chosen to agree to disagree with Mitch even though he has a new possibly viable option (with some obvious work that needs to be done to fine tune the idea) because we just can not seem to have a decent discussion here mostly due to the reason no true facts are available. 

I do want to make one comment to Mitch... the plan to give lifetime medical benefits to donors is a wonderful idea and to me looks like a start to making this a "mainstream" choice in transplantation.  Good idea.  It just might make the private insurance companies and the US government look at this and allow it as an alternative or emulate this program make more living donors available in the US.




EDITED: Fixed Quote Tag Error - Epoman, Owner/Admin

[stauffenberg]

The facts, in terms of large-scale, reputable, statistical analyses of transplants for foreigners in the Philippines do not exist, and anyone who claims to have them is simply inventing them.  There are two reasons for this lack of statistical data: 1) We are talking about a socially disorganized, desperately poor, third-world country, where the only interest of the government is in getting as much tax income into private bank accounts as quickly as possible, so sophisticated statistical studies of social phenomena, such as you have in industrialized countries, simply don't exist.  2) There is a huge amount of prejudice among foreign governments and non-governmental organizations, such as Organ Watch, against paid organ donation, and this induces all those involved in the business to keep a low profile, since they know that every time they come to public attention, sensationalist, yellow journalist media stories start appearing about people waking up in a dumpster with their kidneys removed after someone spiked their drink at a bar, etc. (which is medically impossible, given the high tech equipment and narrow time frame needed for a live donor transplant, but never mind, the story sells advertizing space.) 

The next best thing you can do to find out the reality of the situation, given the absence of data, is to go to the Philippines yourself and check out the way things actually work.  Then you will see for yourself that 1) Almost all transplants, for foreigners as well as Filipinos, in the Philippines occur through paid organ donation -- there is next to NO cadaver transplant program there; 2) It regularly happens that foreigners go to the Philippines for a kidney transplant -- they are mainly Americans and Arabs -- and their operations go well and their grafts function just fine.  Renal transplant surgery is now a 50-year-old procedure and has become quite routine; 3) It is impossible to arrange for a transplant on your own by dealing directly with a surgeon, nephrologist, or hospital, since they all tend to go beserk with greed and would rather ruin their deal entirely than get anything less than your cars, your house, and the fillings in your teeth; 4) You need some transplant facilitator who knows how to deal with these impossible people to do the bargaining for you.  I've been there, I've lived through all of this, and the only way to prove it to you is if you make the investment and go yourself, which now, during the off-season, would only cost you a few thousand dollars for the round trip.

[Panda_9]

Only a few thousand? I could think of a million better things to spend that on. Like money towards a gym membership to get me fit for a transplant in AUSTRALIA!!!

[BigSky]

BigSky,
This is the whole problem with this entire thread.  There are no facts only opinions.  Mitch can not show us his facts for fear that we will by pass his services and go directly to the surgeons and make our own deal and as far as I know (please correct me if I am wrong and provide the facts) there are no case studies or statistics for any of the services Mitch is offering. 

That may very well be true.  However in my observations in life people tend to go through 3rd parties when it comes to dealing with stuff like this in foreign 3 rd world countries. 

I am not sure what you mean by "facts" would enable you to bypass him and go there directly yourself?  Explain?

[geoffcamp]

Facts are hard data that proves an idea.  Such as case studies, mortality rates, how many transplants have been performed to PROVE through reputable sources that this indeed does work and there is a high success rate or not.  I am not sure why you don't understand what I mean by facts!  Go to any transplant center or hospital in your area and ask for the facts on transplantation look at them then ask Mitch for the same documentation.  Is that clear enough??

And Mitch himself said, and this is a quote from one of his posts about why he can not give the facts I am asking for:

  Why don't we shout from the roof tops that we do live legal kidney donor transplants fast and give the Doctor/Hospital name ,address and all the confidential FACTS ?  Three concerns.

1) I get eliminated by the Surgeon to keep my commission and takes control away  from me.

2) The Surgeon may lose his American license when his American colleagues hear that he does paid donor transplant which some consider immoral and unethical. They can easily be pushed out of Honorary Transplant Societies, which in turn means they can't check all the boxes on the MD license renewal application. So the shit piles on them if I don't protect them in the early stage. Initially, I would gets lots more business if I put their career on the block.

3) The Hospital would get lots of normal type overseas phone calls from worried American patients seeking reassurance for their transplant Surgery. The Hospital in the Philippines does not have a dept. to handle normal transplant questions on the Phone. The caller would get passed around or hung up on. In this country I don't call a switchboard , I go in person. The caller and his frustrated (from not getting answers)family would call even more.
Then word would get out to the newspapers ( it caused a hospital problems in 2001).It may suprise you but the local population here does not want you, better off Americans, coming here for transplants, while they can't even afford dialysis.
  The citizens have voting clout and the newspapers sell more with sensational headlines, like wealthy foreigners come for Philippine organs. In 2001 an church run hospital had to stop transplanting foreigners, when that story named them.
   If I caused the Hospitals or the Surgeons to get screwed , guess who would get black listed. So , I screen carefully for the long term good. Even if I lose patients (and I am sure I do ) I need to be protective of the system here.  I am sure you understand.
   Geoff, your insurance Will pay just like it does now. Medicare will pay 3 yrs of anti rejection meds if prescribed by a US doctor. The prescription pad does not say where surgery was done. The Pharmacist will not ask. Don't volunteer it.
    As for failure, stay here as long as you need to be sure of it. If it fails because it's our negligence , you can get a free one, on the house..

[BigSky]

Facts are hard data that proves an idea.  Such as case studies, mortality rates, how many transplants have been performed to PROVE through reputable sources that this indeed does work and there is a high success rate or not.  I am not sure why you don't understand what I mean by facts!  Go to any transplant center or hospital in your area and ask for the facts on transplantation look at them then ask Mitch for the same documentation.  Is that clear enough??

So in other words if the facts were provided you would go buy a kidney.  Otherwise it doesnt matter does it.

His services do not appeal to people like you.  They most likely appeal to those that the centers in the US and other countries refuse to give transplants to because of age or other factors or those that have been on the lists for long past most because of there blood types.

 

[geoffcamp]

Did you actually READ any of my posts???  Did I say i would buy a kidney if I had the facts???  Would I consider it to be a more viable "mainstream" option... probably.  You asked me to explain and I did.  If you don't like the answer then too bad.  I explained as you asked me to do.  I already said in the post that you questioned "what I mean by facts?", that I agree to disagree with Mitch and also said that he does seem to be working toward a new option in getting more living donors but that in my personal opinion it needs some refinement.  I have already said this in the last 15 pages of posts too... did you read any of them??  I have stated my opinion multiple times so now I am done!!  I have tried every way I can to get the most information I can and have not been convinced yet.  I am certainly not saying everyone should feel the way I do or that something good will not come out of Mitch's ideas eventually. 
I can't say it any more ways!!  I think I have been crystal clear... I am done here!
Geoff

[angieskidney]

Facts are hard data that proves an idea.  Such as case studies, mortality rates, how many transplants have been performed to PROVE through reputable sources that this indeed does work and there is a high success rate or not.  I am not sure why you don't understand what I mean by facts!  Go to any transplant center or hospital in your area and ask for the facts on transplantation look at them then ask Mitch for the same documentation.  Is that clear enough??

So in other words if the facts were provided you would go buy a kidney.  Otherwise it doesnt matter does it.

His services do not appeal to people like you.  They most likely appeal to those that the centers in the US and other countries refuse to give transplants to because of age or other factors or those that have been on the lists for long past most because of there blood types.

 

That was the whole reason I let him post on my forums. But it seems the majority want him out so he won't be posting on my forums anymore. Here is the first time I have heard anyone WANT him to post.

But I have found some things that Mitch has said to be contradictory. Like him saying that filipinos don't want Americans to come and get kidneys .. yet in another he said they welcome Americans.

I could point out more but I don't think it will make any issues resolved or clearer.

I just thought that some people wanted to hear what he had to say since it is legal over there.

I myself won't ever go because I can't afford one and even though I have been waiting 5 years, I am not desperate for a kidney transplant even though I hate dialysis. At least I am not as bad off as I could be. And I have the notion that I will get a kidney again one day to keep me patient.

But I do feel for the people who are told they can't have one. I mean .. I HATE DIALYSIS! That is the whole reason we are all on this site right? Even though it enables us to live and if this was even 50 years ago we wouldn't be this lucky. Still .. I could never imagine being told that I must live the remainder of my days stuck to and dependant on a machine. I guess I will worry about that in the future.

But I definately want the facts as well because I don't like to judge without knowing.

[geoffcamp]

One more thing...  I forgot to mention the major reason I am not considering Mitch's solution.  Here it is:  If (as we have been told by Mitch) the surgeons are will to take you for everything you have how on earth could I possibly trust them with my life??  I understand that reason we need Mitch to be in the process is because these surgeons are so unethical that they will change the price and do everything in their power to get every cent they can.  I am sorry but for me I choose to wait here in the US and not take chances with my life in a person who acts that way hands.

[mitchorganbroker]

Geoff, there are two issues here. Lets separate them, and think logical here , not emotional from the gut.
 First a little story, one of my wealthy patient went and volunteered to a Surgeon that the price of the donor doesn't matter. While the Surgeon and Nephrologist were speaking in Tagalog near the patient, I sent my Philippine girlfriend across the dialysis room to easedrop on their conversation. She told me in private that the Nephrologist asked the  Surgeon why he wanted to charge this American patient $25,000 extra for the donor       ( while in the waiting room Philippine people said they were charged only $3000.) The Surgeon told the Nephrologist in Tagalog that the overcharge was because he was a rich foreigner.
    So the next morning I told the patient and the family will get a second opinion from an other Transplant Surgeon and that he will no longer tell these people that price doesn't matter.
     Geoff , if you was this Surgeon, knowing that all of your family and friends would laugh and have a party for getting extra money from naive Americans BUT if you messed up on the Surgery and the patient died, you would be kicked off the Hospital staff, no longer get referrals from anybody, would read about it in the newspapers and
lose your chance to return to the US to make very big bucks.
  Understand now why he would like your money but do perfect surgery just like the past 300 transplants he did perfectly. In the US the big name Surgeon Charge extra , but only at the start , whereas the Philippines Surgeon would raise it up in the middle if they think they got you by the balls. But the Surgery will be perfect since this protects their career.
    Yes they are unethical about money but they are not stupid about their future career. See the difference.?
Also , they use that famous live donor everybody wants, after only two weeks of testing. How does this compare to the screw job you get in the US ?    I allow a little cheating so Surgeons are happy and don't lose face.
   Geoff you have noticed in the reports of poor results overseas, they only mentioned China,Pakistan and Iran, so it is indeed safe here.
   Angie you and Sandman, both of you takes quotes from me and an other person here, and say I said them both. The other people here paste the quote. Would you mind doing the same so we avoid confusion.

[BigSky]

Did you actually READ any of my posts???  Did I say i would buy a kidney if I had the facts???  Would I consider it to be a more viable "mainstream" option... probably.  You asked me to explain and I did.  If you don't like the answer then too bad.  I explained as you asked me to do.  I already said in the post that you questioned "what I mean by facts?", that I agree to disagree with Mitch and also said that he does seem to be working toward a new option in getting more living donors but that in my personal opinion it needs some refinement.  I have already said this in the last 15 pages of posts too... did you read any of them??  I have stated my opinion multiple times so now I am done!!  I have tried every way I can to get the most information I can and have not been convinced yet.  I am certainly not saying everyone should feel the way I do or that something good will not come out of Mitch's ideas eventually. 
I can't say it any more ways!!  I think I have been crystal clear... I am done here!
Geoff

Well that was a  rhetorical question. You are evidently too emotional to have understood that.

So like I said it really doesnt matter does it! 

No matter what was provided you would not have one over there.

Ohhh and I have read some of you posts.  Found them to be emotionaly charged.

[mitchorganbroker]

I went to 6 differerent Transplant centers in the Philippines to get the Facts.
 In total I spoke with 8 Different Transplant Surgeons to get more facts.
Statements from well known and certified Transplant Surgeons as well as well respected Hospital administrators were given freely.
  The report :

1 The heart Transplant Surgeon- did one transplant in Manila 1996. Patient survived 4 months.

2 Two Liver Transplant Surgeons-
      a) American Trained Surgeon- More than 200 transplants, both Kidney and Liver.
             Kidney-no operational deaths, zero rejections after one year.
             Liver - no operational deaths , 10% deaths after one yr (  rejection and Liver failure)
      b) Japanese Trained Surgeon- More than one hundred, almost all kidneys
             Kidney-no operational deaths, zero rejections after one year.
             Liver- one death during Surgery, two more deaths in less than three months, from acute rejection and liver failure.

 4. Five kidney transplant Surgeons of which 2 trained in the US while the other 3 trained under a American Surgeon in
       the  Philippines.
     The two US trained kidney Transplant Surgeons, both had a background in General Surgery and Urology before going to the US to train as Kidney Transplant Surgeons.
        a)    One died last year at the age of 41- I used to question him at Starbucks. His patients came from Japan,   Arabian countries and Korea. No American. He had a perfect success rate with no rejections after one year, with more than 90 transplants.
        b)     The Second one has transplanted more than 140 patients without any rejections, after one year.

   5. The three Transplant Surgeons who trained under an American Transplant Surgeon.
         a) The youngest Transplant Surgeon (a)- has done 48 transplants , however one patient rejected his kidney after 3 months because he wanted to save money by taking the anti rejection medications every three days. He is now back on dialysis
         b) Kidney transplant Surgeon (b) - more than 300 successful transplants of which more than 200 were cadaver transplants. Zero Rejections after one year.
         c)  Transplant Surgeon (c) works far from Manila , in a lower density province. He has transplanted a couple of American patients.
             He uses nothing less than a 2 donor match , but one must be a DR.
             He has transplanted about 70, without any rejections , at all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The General parameters : No patient under 14 nor older than 70. Most but not all were  on dialysis. Donors included Cadavers, live related and live unrelated.

Future surveys will contain complete donor data before and after one year as well as more parameters for the recipient, % of antigen match, any induction therapy used and the different medications used to prevent long term rejection..

[sandman]

Angie you and Sandman, both of you takes quotes from me and an other person here, and say I said them both. The other people here paste the quote. Would you mind doing the same so we avoid confusion.

Excuse me but can you show me where I have done what you said I did?  Each post I quote has a link to where I got the quote from.

[mitchorganbroker]

Sandman, what you and Angie do as team work is you answer each other's questions in a conciliatory tone when you get caught in a lie. Since you posted your assumption of what I do, after you gave a definition of broker on ANGIE'S FORUM , NOT in IHD , I can't repost (at Angie's) a second time, since I am no longer a member there.
  When you were  caught  in a lie, on Angie's forum , last week, you chose to wait until now to acknowledge seeing a question. In the past you were proved wrong by Big Sky that it was not black market. Then you call me a broker and give a dictionary definition which is OK. But then you wrongly add your assumption to it. I called you on it, asked for an apology. No answer given by you, until I can no longer log on to (Angie's Board) copy your statement. When you post " I found it" but you don't copy it into your post and then Angie writes " that's what I wanted" it is still NOT an answer but a cover up.
    Since you are posting here, tell it here. You either admit that you were wrong to call me a broker or post complete proof if you disagree.

This time don't hide behind Angie's apron strings . Apologize like a man. 
_Below I have a comment to Angie, let her answer for herself.______________________________________________________________________
 
    Angie , you wrote "But I have found some things that Mitch has said to be contradictory. Like him saying that filipinos don't want Americans to come and get kidneys .. yet in another he said they welcome Americans."
  Angie, I asked you to copy and post like other people do at IHD , because while I did write the first phrase, I did not write the second.  Copy your proof here at IHD, without Sandman answering for you. Then either you apologize  or me, if you posted correctly.

[sandman]

Sandman, what you and Angie do as team work is you answer each other's questions in a conciliatory tone when you get caught in a lie. Since you posted your assumption of what I do, after you gave a definition of broker on ANGIE'S FORUM , NOT in IHD , I can't repost (at Angie's) a second time, since I am no longer a member there.
  When you were  caught  in a lie, on Angie's forum , last week, you chose to wait until now to acknowledge seeing a question. In the past you were proved wrong by Big Sky that it was not black market. Then you call me a broker and give a dictionary definition which is OK. But then you wrongly add your assumption to it. I called you on it, asked for an apology. No answer given by you, until I can no longer log on to (Angie's Board) copy your statement. When you post " I found it" but you don't copy it into your post and then Angie writes " that's what I wanted" it is still NOT an answer but a cover up.
    Since you are posting here, tell it here. You either admit that you were wrong to call me a broker or post complete proof if you disagree.

This time don't hide behind Angie's apron strings . Apologize like a man. 

I am not going to drag out a debate that we had on Angies boards here.

But agreed.  I did make reference to you as a black marketeer but was corrected because your actions are legal where you are.  Over and done with as far as I am concerned.  Then I made a comment to you being a organ broker and again, you took offense.  Many others in this community have referred to you as such and you agreed to use the name mitchorganbroker so with every post you make with that name, you suggest that you are an organ broker.

There were others here that called you and organ broker.  For example.....

Organbroker,

and

Organ Broker.

Two women on this forum with whom I trust to speak the truth, especially rerun.  But you have not hammered them because of their comments.  But you are with me.  The dictionary definition of the word "broker" is an accurate description of what you do.  If my calling you an organ broker, when you yourself agreed to name yourself the same, then how does that make me a lier???

What would YOU like us to call you?

[angieskidney]

Sandman, what you and Angie do as team work is you answer each other's questions in a conciliatory tone when you get caught in a lie. Since you posted your assumption of what I do, after you gave a definition of broker on ANGIE'S FORUM , NOT in IHD , I can't repost (at Angie's) a second time, since I am no longer a member there.
When you post " I found it" but you don't copy it into your post and then Angie writes " that's what I wanted" it is still NOT an answer but a cover up.
 

Wth are you talking about Mitch? When I said, "That was what I wanted" it was because he went back and linked to the exact quotes so you can see he wasn't making it up. And your account was voted on. People were threatening to leave my forums if you stayed and I still gave 5 days notice and kept your posts with your sig linking to your site. Yet you never thanked me. IF you look back in the first page of this thread Epoman even said how because of you so many forums have went down. My forum is too small to survive how you talk so insulting of other members. But I have even put a link to here so that people could continue this conversation with you. And we have been linking to quotes you have said but damn it man I am not about to read 15 pages just to quote you..

We have given so much proof and yet you have given so little. You say you have talked to people. BRING those people here! Anyone who has had a transplant through your help! If they are so proud of their transplant and hated dialysis so much IHATEDIALYSIS is the PERFECT place for them to sign up!!

Also I notice that when you are confronted you turn the focus on someone else and off yourself. That doesn't work for selling cars so don't do that with trying to get us to the Philippines.

This time don't hide behind Angie's apron strings . Apologize like a man. 
_Below I have a comment to Angie, let her answer for herself.______________________________________________________________________
 
    Angie , you wrote "But I have found some things that Mitch has said to be contradictory. Like him saying that filipinos don't want Americans to come and get kidneys .. * yet in another he said they welcome Americans."
  Angie, I asked you to copy and post like other people do at IHD , because while I did write the first phrase, I did not write the second.  Copy your proof here at IHD, without Sandman answering for you. Then either you apologize  or me, if you posted correctly.

* Here is proof you said the first one:

It may suprise you but the local population here does not want you, better off Americans, coming here for transplants, while they can't even afford dialysis.

* And here is the quote for the second one:

When I first arrived in the Philippines I thought I would have to be very careful about saying anything about organ purchases, but to my surprise, everyone, from the dialysis staff to the doctors, from the other dialysis patients to the patients at the renal transplant follow-up center, said the same thing: "Oh, you must be here to buy a kidney transplant!" In the Phillipines this is considered a normal, everyday thing to do, since almost no one ever gets a kidney transplant other than by buying it, and the Filipinos are a very friendly people who appreciate the foreign money coming into their country with the transplant business and never think of it as immoral, which is a Western idea.

I am sorry that Angie's kidney did not last longer, but by arranging a transplant from a live donor well in advance, the Philippine doctors can sort through the HLA data on a large pool of potential donors and select a very good, often a three HLA group match with the all-important DR site, for the overseas client. A well-matched organ from a living donor with a three-point match should normally last for around 15 to 20 years.

But it seems I owe you an apology as you didn't say that they want Americans. It seems that stauffenberg said it and  you never said he was wrong so I assumed that was correct.

Copy your proof here at IHD, without Sandman answering for you. Then either you apologize  or me, if you posted correctly.

Sandman and I don't answer FOR each other. We are individual people in 2 different countries. Meanwhile it seems that stauffenberg has answered for YOU in the past but I never said anything about that because he is allowed to say what ever he wishes. Just like Sandman can say what ever he wishes. We do NOT talk FOR each other. We just think a like.

Basically it looks like you never said "they welcome Americans" and that is fine. Does this mean that they would rather us NOT go over there?

I don't really care if anyone goes over there or not. Each person must do what they feel is best for theirself. I just don't want to see it ever legal here to BUY a kidney as soon it would be only the rich getting organs while the poor stay on dialysis or die waiting for other organs. I don't think that would be fair.

But as long as what you are doing is legit over there, then fine. We would just like to see more proof to make us feel more secure in any decision to go over seas to you. What security can you provide?

What would YOU like us to call you?

I am curious what you call yourself as well Mitch. We don't know what to call you so we call you whatever we think fits.

[mitchorganbroker]

Your point is well taken. I have seen all the good support that you two have provides to many.
  Good luck with Angie's Forum and your up and coming transplant.  Thanks for allowing my post and those links.
It's was a neat idea.
 Sandman , you answered the age old mystery on my FN 175.

[Epoman]

Your point is well taken. I have seen all the good support that you two have provides to many.
  Good luck with Angie's Forum and your up and coming transplant.  Thanks for allowing my post and those links.
It's was a neat idea.
 Sandman , you answered the age old mystery on my FN 175.

So does that mean you are done here Mitch? Have you had your chance to state your case? I really hope you appreciate all that I have done for you. I have received numerous emails demanding I ban you and numerous emails concerning this infamous thread asking it be locked or deleted. I have let this thread be viewed over 3,000+ times and have nearly 300 replies. I believe I have been very fair to you by allowing you to state case and debate all you wanted. But it is now at the point where this is just turning in to tiny flame wars and I can not allow this to continue much longer, your time here on IHD.COM  is coming to an end soon. And I hope you will have enough self respect to give me some back and not spam the site any longer. How you react now will show your TRUE character.

ALL MEMBERS: Please give your final thoughts (replies) as this thread will be LOCKED shortly.

- Epoman
Owner/Admin