Transplant Surgery abroad is not the same in every country

[Epoman]

Mallory, don't you understand? Stauffenberg and Mitch are the same person.  They've been getting off by making kidney patients feel bad on numerous other boards for years.  Don't argue with him/them.  Just accept that these guys are playing your emotions like a fiddle and ignore them.  I don't know for the life of me why Epoman and Angie are allowing this nonsense to continue on their boards.  It was the undoing of other boards and it will darn well wreck these boards if it is allowed to continue.

It is true that some other boards have fallen due to "organ brokers" however that is because the site owners did not have control of the situation. If you read the second post in this thread you will see I am in control of this situation: http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=1334.msg16075#msg16075 it will give a better idea of why I allowed this thread by "mitch" if you notice he is not posting in any other thread or section, he is allowed this one thread to have his say and be allowed to state his case. I recommend that any member who is tired of this thread or does not wish to read it or debate in it anymore, simply ignore it and don't even click the thread.

[sandman]

I recommend that any member who is tired of this thread or does not wish to read it or debate in it anymore, simply ignore it and don't even click the thread.

Copy that sir.    I am about finished with this pointless debate so I will be removing the notify link to this thread right now.

[geoffcamp]

Mitch,

I would like to see some actual facts.

1. Show me an actual invoice for ALL services (travel expenses, MD invoice (neph, surgeon, anesthesiologist, nurses and etc,), Kidney invoice, meds, accommodations). You can blur or omit the actual name of the patient.

2. Amount of money paid to the living donor.

3. Amount paid to you or someone else in your position.

4. mortality rates with as much data as you have for both donor and recipient. How long patients live with the transplanted kidney and the heath status of the living donor.

Lets quit talking about ethics and see some REAL numbers. If this is as safe and organized as you say it is these figures must be available. I also would like to be put in contact with someone (maybe you) that can answer any other questions that may arise. I know I can look up all these numbers on the INTERNET for our Government programs so you should have the same data available.

From my position, I have found that good/great ideas usually stand on their own merit. In other words once spelled out as well as you and stauffenberg have so eloquently tried to convince us the idea if a good one will win over the majority of the people without need for argument or further explanation. This does not seem to be the case here.

Also, I think to myself would I feel comfortable (knowing what I know about this topic) letting my family, girlfriend/wife and CHILDREN sell their organs in if they could make a substantial amount of money. The answer for me is no. How about you Mitch? Would you let your family sell their organs for profit?

So in closing please show me some hard data... case studies, invoices for actual procedure and compensation for all parties involved from you to the doctors to the donors. And bring someone with you to one of these boards who has had the procedure done and let us talk to them. Even better let us talk to one of these doctors involved. We could set up a chat session so any and all questions could be covered.

Thanks, Geoff

[Sluff]

I think this thread is getting out of hand. Everyone is entitled to there opinions and I know why Epoman allowed this thread to continue, however I think it has turned into more of an attack against the members who happen to disagree with both Stauffenberg and Mitch.

I reccomend taking Epomans advice. Debate over.

[angieskidney]

I can only speak for myself as to why I have allowed a section for Mitch to post in my forums. It is because he finds a way in but at least this way the situation is controlled. Just like Epoman said. As for this quote:

a 30 year old can expect to live 9.4 years. (Jeremy Levy, et al, "Oxford Handbook of Dialysis" (2001) page 5.) The serious damage which dialysis does to the musculature, the vasculature, the bone mass, and the nervous system will occur whether you watch your fluid intake or not.

I know plenty of people who have been on dialysis for years and have proven that you can't say everyone will be like the statistics.

Also D&T City has allowed Mitch a section there too but even there the Dialysis Nurses say that you can't say that either a transplant or dialysis are better than one another because both have their pros and cons. It is an individual choice and you Mitch and you Stauffenberg cannot go around telling people that their choices aren't right just because it is not the choice YOU would make in that same situation!

I say start telling pure hard facts instead of insults and assumptions! Manipulations won't work! We are all smart enough to want to weight the pros and cons instead of just taking YOUR word for it without any facts!

the price of a Philippine transplant which was cited, $120,000, is way out of range and much higher than the actual price.
One transplant facilitator I spoke with said he charges $200,000, and another facilitator in the Philippines, who got into the business because this was the only way he could get a transplant for his wife, who had been taken off the waiting list in the U.S., said he charges $95,000.  Mitch is less expensive. 

Didn't you guys say before it was $7,000? Seems the price keeps changing. Isn't there any documentation or proof of the actual cost?

[stauffenberg]

When Sandman says there is no point to buying donor organs in a foreign country since everyone can get a kidney for free in his home country, he forgets that the issue in not getting a kidney or not, it is getting a kidney NOW as opposed to after a wait of many years, by which time 1) much of your normal life will have been spent less happily than it could have been free of dialysis; 2) you will be much sicker from the inability of dialysis fully to imitate natural renal clearance; 3) your chances of being dead due to the shorter lifespan of dialysis patients will be greater; 4) your chances of having become forever ineligible for a transplant because of your declining health on dialysis will have become greater.

All the people who got transplants in foreign countries I know by buying them from live donors have been able to get follow-up care from the normal health services in the United States and Canada. You simply show up where you were being dialyzed, tell your nephrologist you got a kidney from your cousin in a foreign country, and he refers you to the transplant clinic.  In many cases, even if the doctor knows or suspects you may have bought an organ, he does not care, since his first duty is to care for the sick, not to play policeman.  Surgeons will even operate on bankrobbers after they have been shot during a hold-up, so nephrologists don't mind helping patients who have paid for an organ donor.  I even spoke to one transplant patient who got his kidney through Mitch whose own nephrologist endorsed his plan to go to the Philippines before he even went.

When Geoff poses the question of whether you would want a relative to sell a spare kidney, you have got to think of the proper context.  In the Philippines, there is almost no social safety net, children cannot go to school unless their parents can pay the fees, the unemployment rate is 25%, and the average salary is $2000.  So Geoff's question should be: would you rather see your relative starve to death or sell a spare kidney?

Angie seems to think that because there are different pros and cons to dialysis and transplant as a response to endstage renal failure, that must somehow necessarily mean that both options are equal, or that we can't possibly figure out which option is better.  But of course, the very, very much longer life expectancies of patients with a renal transplant over dialysis patients, plus their essentially normal lifestyle in comparison with that of a dialysis patient, show that the pros and cons of transplant outweigh the pros and cons of dialysis.  You don't see "I hate my transplant" message boards on the internet, do you?

The figure of US $7000 was just the amount paid to the organ donor.  The higher figures you see are the amounts charged for the entire transplant package, which includes the surgery, the diagnostic testing to make sure both donor and recipient are suitable for the operation, the examination of the donor and the whole arrangement by the hospital ethics committe, all medications used plus the two-week supply to take with you, as well as the HLA testing, often of a very large number of potential donors, as well as the cross-matching.

I was surprised to read Sluff's comment protest against the "attack against the members who happen to disagree" made by Stauffenberg and Mitch, since the only open hostility in the form of a personal attack I have seen in this entire discussion has come in one of the member's objections to something I said.  The fact that I disagree with and criticize the views of some members is totally different from a personal attack on them.

Those who want more concrete proof that Mitch's service is real should contact Mitch himself, since he sometimes negotiates phased payments with patients so they can go to the Philippines and check out each stage, paying for each succeeding step in the transplant process only if and when they are satisfied that it is for real.  When you see the entire set-up, meet the surgeons and the nephrologists, talk to the dialysis staff, inspect the hospital and the operating room, talk to Mitch himself, you will feel silly for ever having doubted it.

I understand that endstage renal failure can itself create financial difficulties for patients, and I wish the government would fund a program such as Mitch now offers so everyone could get a transplant right away for free.  Mitch himself once tried to get a transplant for a patient who could not afford to pay the fee, but since the Philippine surgeons refused to cooperate by waiving their fees, this turned out not to be possible.

[Sara]

How do you know so much about Mitch?   

[stauffenberg]

I know so much about Mitch because I went to the Philippines and thoroughly investigated his whole service.

[Sara]

I know so much about Mitch because I went to the Philippines and thoroughly investigated his whole service.

Only investigated?

[Zach]

I know so much about Mitch because I went to the Philippines and thoroughly investigated his whole service.

What about the graft recipients?  How many did you interview in person?  How many are still alive today?
You were so thorough, that you went around the world to meet them?

I know, the word thoroughly is a relative term to you.     

[mitchorganbroker]

Angie, Our price haven't been changing.  Our web site gives the range and describes it.
------------------____________________________
Mr. Geoffcamp-  You asked the right questions. We provide most of what you asked for to serious patients but not those   reporters . Part of my job is to screen patient and weed out the reporters. I will provide you with much of that either here on this forum or personally by e-mail, depending on how you first provide me with your medical records , documents like drivers license, dialysis report, doctors letter recommending you for a transplant.
   Sandman, You asked about how do people get money for a transplant procedure of 120,000. First of all it's $70,000.  The average house in the US is worth around 120,000. So , the homeowner in the family goes to the bank and borrows against the value.
   Sandman, I think the transplant is a cure because the person no longer has the condition ESRD. When the doctor perscribes medications for HIV disease to keep it under control so as to prevent AIDS from appearing,
this is not a cure, but keeps the HIV (virus) under control.

[sandman]

Sandman, I think the transplant is a cure because the person no longer has the condition ESRD. When the doctor perscribes medications for HIV disease to keep it under control so as to prevent AIDS from appearing, this is not a cure, but keeps the HIV (virus) under control.

Mitch, I think you are missing a valuable point about ESRD and kidney transplants.  Please, if you can, show me documented evidence that a transplanted kidney has provided 100% relief from machines, hospitals and doctors visits and medications for the rest of the ESRD patients life.  You won't find it and do you want me to tell you why?   Because kidney transplants are not a cure.  Pretty much summed up as only a temporary patch to the problem but not yet a cure in any aspect.

Now, the only commonality between ESRD and HIV that I see, is that they can both be fatal and last I checked, ( please correct me if I am mistaken ) there is no cure for either one.  But what does HIV have to do with ESRD anyway?  We are not talking about AIDS here.

[stauffenberg]

Sandman keeps harping on the point that the transplant is not a cure for renal failure, but the statistics showing the increase in life expectancy for transplant patients over dialysis patients make a transplant worth $70,000, don't they?  And remember, we haven't even started to consider here the vast improvement in energy, clarity of thought, freedom to travel easily and to organize your time as you desire, freedom from dietary and fluid restrictions, and elimination of all the many deleterious health effects that arise from staying on dialysis, such as rapidlly accelerated arteriosclerosis, neurological disease, bone disease, etc.  If a surgeon sets a broken bone, the bone will always show radiological traces of having been broken.  Does that mean that if you broke your leg you would not go to a surgeon to have it set, because what he could do would never be a perfect cure, since your bone would always have a weak point along the fracture line?  It is all a matter of degree, and I can testify that the difference between dialysis and transplant is enormous and worth any amount of money you can scrape together.

I have spoken to two people who got functioning kidneys through Mitch's facilitation efforts.  They are both doing fine.  I have spoken to four patients in the Philippines who received kidneys from the same doctors who work with Mitch, and who also bought a kidney from a live donor, though not through doctors working for Mitch at the time.  They too are all doing fine.

[Zach]

I know so much about Mitch because I went to the Philippines and thoroughly investigated his whole service.

I have spoken to two people who got functioning kidneys through Mitch's facilitation efforts.  They are both doing fine.  I have spoken to four patients in the Philippines who received kidneys from the same doctors who work with Mitch, and who also bought a kidney from a live donor, though not through doctors working for Mitch at the time.  They too are all doing fine.

Yes, that's very thorough.

[mallory]

I have to admit it, I think Livecam was correct.  With each of Stauffenberg's posts, I'm seeing the lines blur between Stauffenberg and Mitch.  There seems to be a lot less credible university professor and a lot more desperate pitchman in each post.

[meadowlandsnj]

Angie, Our price haven't been changing.  Our web site gives the range and describes it.
------------------____________________________
Mr. Geoffcamp-  You asked the right questions. We provide most of what you asked for to serious patients but not those   reporters . Part of my job is to screen patient and weed out the reporters.


What are you trying to hide?  If you think this is so great why not advertise it?  Let the world know about it.  Why not let a reporter get the story and publicize it?

[geoffcamp]

Angie, Our price haven't been changing.  Our web site gives the range and describes it.
------------------____________________________
Mr. Geoffcamp-  You asked the right questions. We provide most of what you asked for to serious patients but not those   reporters . Part of my job is to screen patient and weed out the reporters.


What are you trying to hide?  If you think this is so great why not advertise it?  Let the world know about it.  Why not let a reporter get the story and publicize it?

BECAUSE IT IS ILLEGAL!!!  YES I AM SHOUTING BUT NOT AT YOU MEADOELANSNJ.... AT MITCH AND STAUFFENBERG!!!!!!!!

[meadowlandsnj]

Hypothetically speaking........say I DID buy an organ, had the operation and came back to the USA.  How do I get follow up care?  How do I get the immuno medications?  How do I do the follow-up bloodwork?  Who pays for everything? I can't imagine walking into my transplant clinic and saying "I just got back from Manilla and I have a new kidney--now it's your turn to take care of me".  They wouldn't touch me with a ten foot pole.  Say I get the organ and it fails........can I get another?  Can a US transplant center turn me down to get another kidney if it fails for getting an illegal organ?  I would love to ask these questions to someone who can give m e definite and true answers.  Stauffy amd Mitch are selling their "product" so I don't think I'll get unbiased answers from either of them. 

[stauffenberg]

I have spoken to two of Mitch's patients who had transplants in the Philippines, returned to their own countries, and had no problems with follow-up care.  One of the patients had the full cooperation from his nephrologist from the start and so, when he returned, he was welcomed back as a post-transplant patient by the same nephrologist who had taken care of him as a dialysis patient.  The other simply re-typed all the medical reports from the Philippines on stationery with no letterhead, showed it to a local nephrologist whom he told he had had a transplant from a cousin in another Western country, and he was accepted into the follow-up program.  Medical doctors follow a very strict code of professional practice which requires them not to abandon patients or deny care, and so they conceive of themselves first and foremost as helpers of the sick, not as enforcers of government regulations, especially when these are based on ignorance of the real problems sick people face.  Many doctors I have spoken with, like an ever increasing number of academic medical ethicists, regard buying an organ for transplant as perfectly ethical.

While some countries make the sale of organs for transplant illegal, there are many which do not.  Some countries' laws make it illegal for their citizens to travel abroad for a purchased transplant from a live donor, but other countries restrict such paid donations only within their borders.  The constitutions of many nations do not permit them to legislate extraterritorially, so they cannot regulate what their citizens do in another country.  Many countries that do make paid organ donations illegal punish violations of these laws with purely tokenal fines, and the vast majority of such jurisdictions never bother enforcing such laws, because the governments are sensible enough to realize that these regulations are unjust, and are just needed to pander to the outrage of the uninformed populace.

[geoffcamp]

I have spoken to two of Mitch's patients who had transplants in the Philippines, returned to their own countries, and had no problems with follow-up care.  One of the patients had the full cooperation from his nephrologist from the start and so, when he returned, he was welcomed back as a post-transplant patient by the same nephrologist who had taken care of him as a dialysis patient.  The other simply re-typed all the medical reports from the Philippines on stationery with no letterhead, showed it to a local nephrologist whom he told he had had a transplant from a cousin in another Western country, and he was accepted into the follow-up program.  Medical doctors follow a very strict code of professional practice which requires them not to abandon patients or deny care, and so they conceive of themselves first and foremost as helpers of the sick, not as enforcers of government regulations, especially when these are based on ignorance of the real problems sick people face.  Many doctors I have spoken with, like an ever increasing number of academic medical ethicists, regard buying an organ for transplant as perfectly ethical.

While some countries make the sale of organs for transplant illegal, there are many which do not.  Some countries' laws make it illegal for their citizens to travel abroad for a purchased transplant from a live donor, but other countries restrict such paid donations only within their borders.  The constitutions of many nations do not permit them to legislate extraterritorially, so they cannot regulate what their citizens do in another country.  Many countries that do make paid organ donations illegal punish violations of these laws with purely tokenal fines, and the vast majority of such jurisdictions never bother enforcing such laws, because the governments are sensible enough to realize that these regulations are unjust, and are just needed to pander to the outrage of the uninformed populace.

Can you guarantee any of this???  I would want to be absolutely positive that  my transplant center and neph would take me back and that I could still use Medicare and my Group Insurance.  Again please present facts not what you have second hand seen.  Show me where I am guaranteed treatment in the US when I come back from buying a kidney transplant in another country.  Bring the people here who have had FIRST HAND accounts of this working for them.  I am really tired of hearing STORIES.  I want you or Mitch to make a n absolute  guarantee that this will happen.  I think you are both all talk (eloquent persuasions not presenting any hardcore facts or casestudies).  If you can not present these FACTS then stop filling our heads with you rhetoric.  Talk is cheap and the proof is in the pudding... so SHOW me don't tell me anymore.  I don't know how may more ways I can put this!!!  If you are going to rely on opinions and "stories" without backing them up with hard data then just stop posting!  Lets see how Gounod-breaking this really is... share all your FACTS and DATA and then you might have a leg to stand on!  If you are unwilling to present these facts the get off this board and go somewhere else to peddle your ideas with no basis for any one of us to believe.  I am not a reporter, I am a ESRD patient so here is your chance to convice me with out the double talk and ethical debate bring on the facts or get out I say!

[stauffenberg]

You can make arrangements with Mitch to go to the Philippines and check out his service there first-hand, if you want to, and that is what I have already done.  He has also allowed serious prospective clients to talk on the telephone with satisfied clients of his who have already had a transplant.

If you are seriously considering an option like this and you are worried about follow-up care in the United States, you can research the Medicare rules for yourself or make enquiries among nephrologists you think might be sympathetic to your concerns in advance of heading off for the Philippines, just to make sure that everything is in place for your return.  Of the two clients of Mitch that I spoke to on the phone, one had a sympathetic nephrologist even before he left for the Philippines, so he had absolutely no trouble on returning, while the other used the rather easily detected trick I described in an earlier post, which no doctors cared to doubt.  If you are really afraid things won't work out on coming back, you can get advice from one of the many lawyers who now specialize in getting Medicare benefits for clients to find out if you would still meet the criteria.

[geoffcamp]

Just give me the facts here.  I am not going to spend more money out of my own pocket to take that trip without having all the facts.  I can find data on everything related to transplants in the US, Canada, and the UK on the internet.  Why on earth would i want to spend money on a trip to the  Philippines when that data should be available before I make a trip to see if it would be safe for me to consider??  What are you afraid of??  Again how much clearer do I have to be???  Post the data and if it matches what you are both saying it could be a definite consideration.  If you want to "sell" this service please prodive ALL the facts.  Please do not respond to this post in any other way other then presenting the hard cold facts!!!  I am growing tired of hearing conjecture and opinion SHOW ME.  How could I be serious about considering this unless I am armed with the facts to make an informed decision???  I must be convinced and your words are not enough for me.  So this is the last time I will post here unless you can provide the information we are all looking to see.  And I recommend you give up your attempts to convince us with your opinions and augments.  If you can not provide this information then this is a fly by the seat of your pants scam operation.  It has to be otherwise you would be able to SHOW the success rates, complications and provide doctor references.  Like I said show us this information or leave.  Your opinions are your own and so are mine... convince me.

[mitchorganbroker]

There is a Philippine Transplant Surgeon teaching and Transplanting organs and Kidneys for a large American Teaching hospital. He and his wife are making a good salaries in the USA.
He is a full time Surgeon in the US but has told me then when he goes on vacation to the Philippines he would transplant an American patient who wants to meet him first in the US. This would also allow him to do aftercare in the US. Since he is used to American fees, his involvement would drive the total cost upward.
  I think he would get fired if his US hospital finds out. I wondered if he can accept medicare since he is a provider, even though he is under contract, with this hospital who bills with his medicare number.
   I post with an ISP from the Philippines while Stauffenberg does not. Just ask the monitor ,here or Angie or Dialysis Joe. They see where the poster is. Angie's forum even shows the flag of the posters country.
   Geoffcamp, get the FACTS for followup care: why not ask Nephrologists near you indirectly ( say it's for your cousin) if they can do followup care for a transplant done in an other country like England. This way you feel him out gently. Try a younger doctor who wants new patients. Tell him the patient is very compliant and has the insurance as you. Don't go to your transplant center to ask those stuffed shirts.
   If you want me to contact the doctors in your area for you, I can do that if you desire. But then I will need your name and some medical information.What do i say if they ask me your age,weight,allergies ,etc. ?
  
   Why don't we shout from the roof tops that we do live legal kidney donor transplants fast and give the Doctor/Hospital name ,address and all the confidential FACTS ?  Three concerns.

 1) I get eliminated by the Surgeon to keep my commission and takes control away  from me.
 
2) The Surgeon may lose his American license when his American colleagues hear that he does paid donor transplant which some consider immoral and unethical. They can easily be pushed out of Honorary Transplant Societies, which in turn means they can't check all the boxes on the MD license renewal application. So the shit piles on them if I don't protect them in the early stage. Initially, I would gets lots more business if I put their career on the block.
 
3) The Hospital would get lots of normal type overseas phone calls from worried American patients seeking reassurance for their transplant Surgery. The Hospital in the Philippines does not have a dept. to handle normal transplant questions on the Phone. The caller would get passed around or hung up on. In this country I don't call a switchboard , I go in person. The caller and his frustrated (from not getting answers)family would call even more.
Then word would get out to the newspapers ( it caused a hospital problems in 2001).It may suprise you but the local population here does not want you, better off Americans, coming here for transplants, while they can't even afford dialysis.
   The citizens have voting clout and the newspapers sell more with sensational headlines, like wealthy foreigners come for Philippine organs. In 2001 an church run hospital had to stop transplanting foreigners, when that story named them.
    If I caused the Hospitals or the Surgeons to get screwed , guess who would get black listed. So , I screen carefully for the long term good. Even if I lose patients (and I am sure I do ) I need to be protective of the system here.  I am sure you understand.
    Geoff, your insurance wil pay just like it does now. Medicare will pay 3 yrs of anti rejection meds if prescribed by a US doctor. The prescription pad does not say where surgery was done. The Pharmacist will not ask. Don't volunteer it.
     As for failure, stay here as long as you ned to be sure of it. If it fails because it's our neglegence , you can get a free one, on the house..

[mitchorganbroker]

Geoffcamp,  You said
     "Just give me the facts here.  I am not going to spend more money out of my own pocket to take that trip without having all the facts.  I can find data on everything related to transplants in the US, Canada, and the UK on the internet.  Why on earth would i want to spend money on a trip to the  Philippines when that data should be available before I make a trip to see if it would be safe for me to consider??  What are you afraid of?? "
   My commission for one thing. I would rather you not get the transplant here, using my information with me sidelined.
     I think this is not for you, because our patients need to pay a down payment of 40,000. prior to getting the Doctor/ Hospital name and address. 
    The US / UK hospital are dealing with a long waiting list but give out the hospital name however its fairly useless because they are missing the kidney.

[Rerun]

The reason they don't broker kidneys in the United States is they can make more money from dialysis.  But, no one currently on this site can afford $40,000 for a kidney (IMO) in the Philippines.  Hey, even if they did it here (in the US) no one could afford $140,000 to buy a kidney.  Now, the homeless who would sell a kidney for $10,000 here in the US wouldn't pass the physical. 

I'm for "Kidney Farmer's Markets" myself.  Those that can afford it can do it.  The rest would just be organ donation and I think the government should give them a tax break if they have the misfortune of an accident but leave their organs here. 

The only way it will become legal here in the US is if there is sales tax!!