I Hate Dialysis Message Board
Off-Topic => Political Debates - Thick Skin Required for Entry => Topic started by: kickingandscreaming on October 08, 2017, 12:01:21 PM
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We all make mistakes. But the people who voted for Trump made a mistake they will have to live with the rest of their lives. They voted for someone who was clearly mentally ill and clearly divisive.
They voted for someone who was nuts and unqualified. This will go down as one of the biggest mistakes in our history. Trump voters will be remembered for a very long time. How badly this ends is a question that still has to be answered. The big question is whether we will live to see the results of their horrible judgment.
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I have concerns for this country, but for different reasons that yours. But, since we both live in MA, neither of our votes count.
Imagine it's 1976 (I picked my high school graduation year) and you have just completed the socials study unit on American Government and Civil Rights. You are given an exam, with True/False questions. I would hazard an educated guess than an answer of "TRUE" to any of the below would have been marked wrong.
- Can the government imprison a US citizen without charges or trial for offenses against the government?
- Do the federal district courts have "secret dockets" which list cases held in secret, and the decisions of which are not released to the press or public?
- Can the government extradite a suspect to a foreign nation with a poor record on human rights and torture without giving the person the chance to have an extradition hearing and be represented by counsel at such?
- Can the government monitor everyone's communications without a warrant?
- Can the government obtain search warrants in a secret court not open to the public?
- Will the director of national intelligence be given a "pass" if he lies under oath to congress about the above?
- It is legal for the US government to use techniques on our prisoners we describe as torture when the Viet Cong do it to our troops?
- Can the government require an internal passport to use private transportation services?
- Can the government deny access to private transportation services based on confidential allegations the individual has no right to see, refute,or confront his accuser?
- Can the US intelligence agencies operate secret prisons in foreign lands, and hold enemies of the state in such facilities without counsel, charges, trial, or even allowing them to let the families know where the are?
My point is that we look to horrible things that happen in history and think "but that could never happen here", only to see that many things that we all formerly "knew" could "never happen here" have come to pass.
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This will go down as one of the biggest mistakes in our history.
Time for root cause analysis.
The DNC stacking the deck so a widely despised heir apparent could take the party nomination is what brought us Trump. I am convinced a R would not have had a chance against a D candidate with a track record of integrity.
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The DNC stacking the deck so a widely despised heir apparent could take the party nomination is what brought us Trump. I am convinced a R would not have had a chance against a D candidate with a track record of integrity.
No. Trump won the nomination over, what, 12 different Republican nominees from all different parts of the GOP. What brought us Trump was/is a populist movement that took some years in the making. That Trump won the Republican nomination really had nothing to do with Clinton. That said, that he WON the general election had more to do with Clinton...that much you can certainly make a case for. But winning the Republican nomination had more to do with many other factors. He bullied and insulted his way to the nomination, but it is the American voter who is ultimately responsible for being open to and embracing the insults and bullying that he offers. He is a master at hearing what a certain population wants to hear and responding to it. He sees the cultural divide and pounces on it, and that's why we hear much more about the NFL protests in his tweets than we do on complicated trade policy. In fact, he has been instrumental in creating the increase of this divide.
He is the most divisive president in US history (apart, perhaps, from Lincoln), and he revels in that. Any tweets or speeches about wanting unity are lies. This is not a president to whom we can look for moral leadership. I can understand wanting to see a change in government, but Trump is not "change". He is "destruction".
This is a democracy, and in a democracy, we the people are responsible for the people we put in office to represent us. If Washington is a swamp, it is our collective fault. We are responsible for draining the swamp and ALSO in making said swamp into a place that is more responsive to our collective needs.
Ask yourself this: If Trump DID shoot someone in the middle of 5th Avenue, would his base still support him? Yes, they would, and he knows it.
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Okay
I'm responsible and will be for the next round. USA. USA. USA.
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What brought us Trump was/is a populist movement that took some years in the making. That Trump won the Republican nomination really had nothing to do with Clinton.
While all of this is true, a better Democratic candidate would have likely the election. It took both a terrible Democratic candidate and the populist movement to line up to bring us Trump.
Trump voters will be remembered for a very long time.
When we have a particularly good, or bad, president, people don't really spend any mental energy thinking about the voters.
Any tweets or speeches about wanting unity are lies.
With a normal president, every tweet would be vetted by numerous advisers, polls, focus groups, etc. Even spontaneous jokes are carefully rehearsed (except, perhaps, when Regan told the ER docs that "I hope you gentlemen are Republicans"). This level of candid speaking is unheard of for a POTUS.
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This level of candid speaking is unheard of for a POTUS.
Interesting how it can be both "candid" and fake and full of lies at the same time.
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Candid speaking from a president would be good it he had something useful to say.
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He certainly doesn't.
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There is a old German saying which translates to cloud cuckoo land, this is a state of fantasy and denial. Our moron president clearly lives in this place. It started with his claim to have he biggest inauguration crowd even though park service pictures show gaps in the crowd that did not occur in either Obama crowd, it appears that the moron in chief brands any thing he doesn’t like as fake news. Rather then deal with problems he blames the media. Clearly he is a fake president. The Trump voters who still support this disgrace also live in this place.
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Clearly he is a fake president.
Interesting that he takes ownership of the word "fake." Methinks the word has been around a lot longer than DJT.
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Unbelievable, just unbelievable.
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You HAVE to agree.... Donald J Trump is the most "transparent" president we have ever had. He says what is on his mind.
Love him or not. That is true.
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You HAVE to agree.... Donald J Trump is the most "transparent" president we have ever had. He says what is on his mind.
Love him or not. That is true.
Yeah, but his is not a mind that I particularly want to see being transparent. His mind is just gross. I mean, he's just a giant ewwww.
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He is so fundamentally corrupt that I feel dirty just observing him. What a repulsive excuse for a human being.
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If this was a fairy tale the first time he kissed his wife he would change back to the toad he really ie.
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He is so fundamentally corrupt that I feel dirty just observing him. What a repulsive excuse for a human being.
Funny thing, I have the same reaction to "pay for access" Hillary.
It is all to easy for people to be blind to corruption on the part of politicians whose agendas they like, and see every bit of it in the opposition. This leads both sides to conclude that the other party's candidate is the corrupt one.
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Gotta call ya out here, Simon Dog. That is the most blatant example of false eqivalency I have ever seen. Trump is a sexual predator and is one of those Alpha male types who see themselves as entitled, particularly when it comes to his sexual appetites. And to think that the evangelicals voted for this ungodly man.
Trump has no agenda for me to either like or dislike. He is nothing more than an ageing swinging d**k who needs to be loved by the uneducated folks he said he loved. He does not govern. He just speechifies.
His stupid hat should read "Make America Gross Again". I have always had a visceral revulsion to men like Trump. They think they are special.
Oh oh oh...the whining!! Please make it stop! Everyone else is to blame!
Does anyone really think that Trump does not teach the Pay For Access class?
At least Hillary Clinton is not a pervy old man.
Rex Tillerson was right.
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Can anyone imagine President Obama acting the way Trump does? Obama's sin was that he was black. Do you all remember the false but oft-repeated claims that he was arrogant and thin skinned? Irony, anyone?
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Obamas only sin was not being black it was mostly being stupid. Did any of you right wingers notice he alloted a great pension for himself before he was out of office? No, I am sure not. Too bad he is not getting it. Seems it was ilegal. How many of you read about that " other' black man who was put in charge of HUD and managed to almost immediately find an enormous sum of money that, under Obama, had been put aside and kind of mis hid somewhere. You can call DJT all the names you want to if that makes your cheap little minds happy, but in the end he is and will be the winner. He will run again in 2020 and will be voted in again in a landslide. You need to get your mouths and brains scrubbed clean so that you can enjoy life the way it was meant to be. No, Hillary is not a pervy old man, she is mostly a liar and a thief and a murderer, but hey, she is not as "bad" as DJT is. She is WORSE!!!!!
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Obamas only sin was not being black it was mostly being stupid.
I have no idea how you can make this statement...
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As long as you're getting your "facts" from Trump, Fox, Breitbart, Alex Jones et al, you will continue to believe and spout this nonsense. I'm afraid that your mind has been totally brainwashed of anything useful. Sad.
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Jean, your post about Obama's pension is a load of old cobblers AND is a lie.
http://time.com/money/4640736/barack-obama-joe-biden-pension/
The Republicans have spent a hell of a lot of time and money in investigating Hillary Clinton on the most spurious claims, and they have found nothing that makes her a thief or a murderer. But she is not the President, is she. We now have a President who is under investigation for tax fraud and for running a campaign in collusion with a foreign hostile government that succeeded in brainwashing people who have "cheap little minds."
How is life the way it was meant to be? What are you on about? If you are enjoying life under a leader who is an effing moron, I'll have some of what you're having.
Sad.
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they have found nothing that makes her a thief or a murderer.
A thief? No. But, the Clinton Foundation was a clear pay for access operation. Notice how people or nations needing access/favors would "coincidentally" give millions to the Clinton Foundation. One way to tell if this was "pay for access" is to look and see if the donations from Middle Eastern countries to the foundation continue at the same pace now that she has no official position and is not a candidate.
Murderer? Probably not, but the large number of people associated with the Clintons who died under mysterious circumstances is an amazing statistical fluke.
And yes, there is plenty of dirt on Trump - generally related to legal, but ruthless, business practices like "You wanna get paid? Settle for 75% of what we agreed or just try taking me and my machine to court".
They are both dirty. It is a mistake to see only the dirt on the other side of the fence.
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I think the situation is much worse than any Trump defenders are willing to consider. Drezner is a serious person https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/10/10/president-trumps-temper-tantrums-are-coming-at-an-accelerating-pace/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/10/10/president-trumps-temper-tantrums-are-coming-at-an-accelerating-pace/)
As Kelly seeks to revive Trump’s stalled tax plan, prevent the Iran nuclear deal from falling apart, and avoid war with North Korea, he’ll also face the challenge of having to manage Trump at Mar-a-Lago.
Kelly is managing the President and he seems to have picked up Kushner's portfolio ... the Trump presidency isn't going well while the downside seems to be expanding at the expense of the upside.
Oh and Clinton is a private citizen so why is she still a point of debate?
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Oh and Clinton is a private citizen so why is she still a point of debate?
People are talking about Trump being corrupt while completely ignoring the fact that he beat an opponent who was at least as corrupt, perhaps more so.
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Can you document Hillary Clinton's corruption? Not just with garbage from Fox or Breitbart. But with real facts.
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Can you document Hillary Clinton's corruption? Not just with garbage from Fox or Breitbart. But with real facts.
Not gonna happen.
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Can you document Hillary Clinton's corruption? Not just with garbage from Fox or Breitbart. But with real facts.
Does the NY Times qualify as a source of real facts?
The acceptance of donations by the Clinton Foundation from people or entities who need access to, or favorable action from, the department of state during here tenure as secretary is well documented. Examples include donations by middle east potentates, as well as the cash flow to the foundation during the Uranium One deal. The later is documented in a NY Times article https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html)
This was all structured legally, so I would refer to it as "soft corruption" or "failure to maintain even the appearance of a lack of conflict of interest". It's not in the same category as stuffing cash in the bra (Shades of MA Senator Dianne Wilkerson) or selling a senate seat (Illinois governor) but is still corruption in my opinion.
The beauty of "soft corruption" is that political supporters can claim "perfectly legal"; opponents can claim "obvious corruption"; and both would be right.
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Hillary claims to support women, yet took money from these Eastern Countries who openly abuse women. I don't get that one. Oh, wait, women in Saudi Arabia can drive now....
I would have had more respect for Hillary if she would have divorced Bill's ass when he cheated on her. Like Huma did Anthony (finally) and like Harvey Weinstein's wife is doing.
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If you would take the time to go back and read your horrible ranting and raving in regard to Hillary and then far worse the insults and demeaning posts about our SITTING POTUS and sit and think about it you will see exactly what is wrong with our country you will see the big deal. HATE!!!! All you do is hate Trump and since he won the election he is our POTUS. You dont want to even give him a break. From the day he was elected, all the loud mouths have criticized him and his family no matter what they did. Not even 6 months to start off with which is surely what Obama got and God knows the man is crooked. (Obama). What happened to the loyalty Obama got? He slowly worked his way into corruptness and hid it all. Obamacare is the biggest joke ever. Hillary Clinton is under investigation by Trey Gowdy. If any one can find it, he will, but most of you will just ignore the truth when it comes out. The country is in an uproar in regard to Colin, also a hate job. Had he announced his method of getting respect, maybe things would be different. I dont know. I do feel he had no right to disprespect our POTUS. DJT has a temper, no doubt about it, but he is a good man and prays every day in our White House. I stand behind him.
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Go back and read 8 years of posts about Obama’s. Now the people who so viciously attacked Obama, including the current potus cry over evert joke and comment. Trump with his birthed attacks started a trend and created the environment he has to govern in, If you want me to treat him like a president let him act like a president. Personally I think he is a low life quisling a secret member of the Russian oligarchy. Instead of Pence it seems he wants Putin to help run the country just as he let Putin help elect him. Mean while as his polls drop he responds by slandering Obama and Clinton. But it you make jokes about him you are unAmerican.
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Where was the outrage when the US was sending funds to Israel to try to tip their election? I'm talking Washington Times reports, not Brietbart. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/12/obama-admin-sent-taxpayer-money-oust-netanyahu/
Or is it an acceptable practice when the US does it, but unacceptable meddling when another nation does it to us?
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Oh. You mean that "reputable" rag, the Washington Times? :sarcasm; Sun Myong Moon's lunytoon newspaper?
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Jokes, jokes??? Jokes are fine, bashing is not and it has been vile since the day of his iinaugaration. Obama had 4 , no probably 3 and 1/2 years of idolatry. You cant deny it Michael, I mean his face was on the cover of Time magazine about a couple of months after inaugaration. I personally hoped he would do well, even tho I did not vote for him, I gave him the respect he deserved, and then starting his second term, almost immediately he went down the tubes with all of his "Executive" signings, most of which were designed to make our lives harder. And the dislike for him grew and then it became hate, because we couldnt start out with hate, since then we would all be racists. If Trump owed anything to Putin, surely it would have showed up by now, wouldnt it?? Well, go ahead and bash him if you think that is the right thing to do. I simply do not.
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Then why has the entire Trump circus lied about his Russian contacts. As the new digs they find more and more Russian contacts. His entire group has lied and hidden his attempts to build in Moscow and his attempts to do business with Putin oligarchs. I don’t fault Russia for meddling but the Traitors in the USA who aided the plot deserve to spend the rest of their lives in a Federal prison. I quote the traitor Mike Flynn, Lock them up. The hacking was a crime and helping the hackers is a conspiracy. It’s time for Americans to stand up for our laws and Constitution and stop worrying about NFL players and begin worrying about traitors in our government.
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Michael, you and I have both been around long enough that we are No longer naive about much of anything. Do you seriously think that all of the campaign managers and backers have been as pure as the driven snow????? HUH, Come on Michael. I know you are smarter than that. As far as the rest of your post, I agree with you completely!!!
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No I know that dirty tricks have been a historical reality in our politics since the beginning, but in the 70s they reached the point after watergate they were made a federal crime. This law made the parties at least back down on the games they were playing but to involve a foreign government that is hostile to the US is a new low, not only against the law but just plain unpatriotic. The Trump regime despite its flag waving smoke screen is being investigated for consorting with a government that has been a enemy of the US for almost 100 years. Their contacts have been denied, proven, down played by the entire administration. We are supposed to respect a man I consider a traitor. The fact he is a moron, who brands every thing he doesn’t like fake news, the fact is he is a fake president. During the election he attacked Obama for playing a occasional game of golf. Then after the election every weekend he can be found at a golf course, which costs the tax payers a fortune for every round he plays. He’s been President for 10 months and the only thing he has done is side with the nazis, Russians, the NRA, against the interest of the people who elected him.
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Oh. You mean that "reputable" rag, the Washington Times? :sarcasm; Sun Myong Moon's lunytoon newspaper?
Ooops, got the Times and Post mixed up.
here are articles from some mainstream sources about the US attempting to meddle in other nation's elections:
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-us-intervention-foreign-elections-20161213-story.html
https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/state-dept-350k-group-built-campaign-structure-used-against-election-israels
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/29/opinions/hillary-clinton-donald-trump-illegal-electoral-interference-ariel-dorfman/index.html
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Hillary claims to support women, yet took money from these Eastern Countries who openly abuse women. I don't get that one.
Hello Rerun, I don't get that one either and thanks for mentioning it.
It is interesting to observe, that so many politicians stumble over "little details"... and then they wonder why we won't trust them !!!
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here are articles from some mainstream sources about the US attempting to meddle in other nation's elections:
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-us-intervention-foreign-elections-20161213-story.html (http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-us-intervention-foreign-elections-20161213-story.html)
https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/state-dept-350k-group-built-campaign-structure-used-against-election-israels (https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/state-dept-350k-group-built-campaign-structure-used-against-election-israels)
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/29/opinions/hillary-clinton-donald-trump-illegal-electoral-interference-ariel-dorfman/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/29/opinions/hillary-clinton-donald-trump-illegal-electoral-interference-ariel-dorfman/index.html)
We fly killer drones over other countries too ... does your argument mean if the Turks want to fly a Predator-like drone over the Adirondacks to kill someone they consider a terrorist we should not complain?
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Simon Dog, you are truly the expert in drawing false equivalencies!! :P It is no secret that the US has been meddling in the affairs of other nations for a long time, and I am sure that other countries have done the same. We all know that Israel has been faffing about in our foreign policy, for instance. But in this day and age of cyber attacks and the manipulation of social media messaging, do you honestly believe that the US has ever meddled in Russia's elections in the way they have done in ours? Are you really drawing that equation?
Rerun, I don't like the fact that the Clinton Foundation took money from the leaders of nations that have a history of treating women poorly, but at least they took that money and used it to help women which is more than can be said for Donald Trump who is a sexual predator. She has done more for the advancement of women's rights around the world than Trump could ever dream of. His interest in women is singleminded. Trump used Russian money to finance some of his real estate projects because no other banks would lend him money, he was such a high risk. Now the Russian puppet is in the White House. There is a link there, and Robert Muller is going to find it.
Jean, Trump does not deserve "a break". He bullied his way to the Presidency, helped by Putin. He demeaned all of his GOP opponents and had the gall to demean John McCain because he had been captured in Vietnam. He is a terrible human being and deserves the hatred and ridicule headed his way. He in no way deserves respect and has done nothing to change anyone's mind. If his iddy biddy feewings are hurting, he holds campaign rallies with his base so that he can get some love. He is leading this nation to war because he thinks that will make him a bigger "man". He is the joke of the modern world. He doesn't care one little bit about you or anyone like you, so he is a big con.
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Simon Dog, you are truly the expert in drawing false equivalencies!! :P It is no secret that the US has been meddling in the affairs of other nations for a long time, and I am sure that other countries have done the same. We all know that Israel has been faffing about in our foreign policy, for instance. But in this day and age of cyber attacks and the manipulation of social media messaging, do you honestly believe that the US has ever meddled in Russia's elections in the way they have done in ours? Are you really drawing that equation?
What is "false" about comparing the US attempting to influence foreign elections to our nation's benefit, and Russia doing the same? It is because the US is morally superior, and we are doing good when engaged in this behavior, but other countries are morally beneath us so it is bad when they do it?
We fly killer drones over other countries too ... does your argument mean if the Turks want to fly a Predator-like drone over the Adirondacks to kill someone they consider a terrorist we should not complain?
This is a prefect example of "might makes right". We have the power to do drone other countries. They do not have the power to drone us. It is a perfect example of the Mao doctrine (political power comes from the barrel of a gun).
A great example is Turkey. The US is harboring someone our country does not feel qualifies for extradition, but Turkey wants. If Turkey had the power to drone him on US soil and not face the wrath of a superior military and a president willing to use it, they very well might. Would that be any more or less right than the US droning our enemies in other nations? Once again, might makes right.
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Oh, Lordy. I've never thought of the US as being morally superior! Just the fact that you believe that might makes right proves my point!
I've always hated the drone program and even wrote to President Obama to complain about it. Turkey may not have the military might to drone someone on US soil, but they are certainly in a geopolitical position to far more damage to us than by using a silly drone.
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Because we ALL hope Hillary runs for President again....
:rofl;
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Just the fact that you believe that might makes right proves my point!
It is not a matter of "believing" that might makes right, but rather "observing" how the world works.
The US is refining its ability to destroy NK, while NK tries to develop the ability to destroy us. Both governments do it to maintain their power and sovereignty. It's "guns for me but not for thee" on a very, very large scale. The difference is that NK is saying "we both should have the ultimate tool of sovereignty" but the US is saying "Nope, you should exist at our pleasure, and remain unable to resist the US if we decide to terminate your system of government". Yes, the NK leadership are scumbags... but the principle is one in which the morally right winner will be determined by power, as the winners write the history books.
In fact, one of the obstacles to a two-state solution with the Palestenians would be Israel's insistence that the Palestinian state exist at their pleasure, and not be a "power peer".
Read the preamble to The Price by Machiavelli. He states that the book is an observation about how the world and politics actually works, not a statement on how he thinks should work. Similarly, do not confuse my observation that might makes right with my belief that it is a morally valid concept.
My point was actually that the US may not be morally superior, and pointing out the irony of condemning Russia trying to influence our election for their benefit while Obama and his minions did exactly the same think to try to unseat Netanyahu in Israel.
Turkey and Pakistan are perfect examples. We have the power to kill a most wanted person in Pakistan, ignoring that nation's borders, sovereignty and judicial process. So, we do it. There is a "most wanted by Turkey" person in the US, but Turkey does not have the power to ignore US borders, come in and kill him, and tell the world "We did it, it was right, and we offer no apologies for ignoring the territorial integrity of the US". Clearly where as a practical matter (not a moral one) might makes right.
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Might doesn't make right, as we saw in Vietnam. It also hasn't worked well in our efforts in the Middle East. It's an outdated concept. "Might" has served only to obliterate and no longer seems to be able to create anything stable or workable in its wake. "Might" is shortsighted.
The arguments posed to support this theory are simplistic as they ignore the restraints put upon us by our allies. And while we may have more "might", China and Russia have more "say".
Did Obama and his minions release millions of bots onto social media and recruit trolls to tell people that Netanyahu maintained pedophile rings in pizza parlors? Can you tell me how exactly he and his minions worked to accomplish this goal? Even if what you say is true, doesn't the fact that it didn't work in Israel but that Russia's attacks on our election DID work tell you something about the gullibility and the general ignorance of those who voted for Trump?
Turkey does not need to kill its "most wanted man" because that country is quickly becoming a dictatorship AND an Islamist state. His supposed followers (and these are spurious claims by Erdogan) have all been jailed and no longer pose a threat. Why risk military escalation to come to the US to kill a man who no longer poses a threat? Erdogan has been given ultimate power via democratic means. The Turks aren't stupid. "Might" can be wielded with stupidity, and the US has become pretty well versed in that.
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Might doesn't make right, as we saw in Vietnam.
Actually, it did. Might in a war is defined by who wins.
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Absolutely!!!!
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Each time you think the 45th President has hit bottom, he goes deeper:
https://youtu.be/6sMCqznZBoc
When I unreservedly agree with Bill Crystal it is not a ordinary political situation. This is not an ordinary situation, whataboutism does not hold up to explain it.
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The insane reality is while it loudly coded American drone attacks most if not all drone strikes originate fron Paktstani air fields. The Pakistani government is involved in a war on the tribal territories for control. American drone strikes remove people that oppose the government of Pakistan, Each time the Pakistian government complains it is with a wink wink, they could stop the strikes by banning the drones from their airfields.
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Drone activity has moved to North Africa
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-has-secretly-expanded-its-global-network-of-drone-bases-to-north-africa/2016/10/26/ff19633c-9b7d-11e6-9980-50913d68eacb_story.html
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Might doesn't make right, as we saw in Vietnam.
Actually, it did. Might in a war is defined by who wins.
Well, that sounds very clever, so please define what you mean by "might". I assumed you meant who had the greatest firepower. The US had nukes. The Viet Cong did not. So it seems to follow that the US had "might". However, if you mean that the definition of "might" includes who has the greatest guile, the best strategy, the superior tactics, the best knowledge of the conditions and territory and a clearer purpose, then obviously the Viet Cong had the "might" that made "right".
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Bill, I can't access this article about expanded drone activity in N. Africa. Can you tell us why our military has done this? Thanks.
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Well, that sounds very clever, so please define what you mean by "might".
Who was better able to fight the war to win,. given the constraints (the fact that our opponents would give aid to our enemy). It was the other side, not the US.
I'll give you a perfect example of "might makes right", even when it is clearly wrong. Major newspapers and magazines will not allow satirical cartoons of Mohammed because of the threats of violence brought my Islamacists. Their "might" (willingness to enforce violence) has won the debate as to what publication of their prophet is permitted. By "right" I mean "prevails in setting the agenda", not "morally correct".
Another example. Left wing activists can speak at campuses and it's no big deal, because the right wingers aren't threatening violence. Bring in a left wing speaker, and you aren't faced with an extra $500K or so in "security fees" because of the threat from the opposition. On the other hand, if you bring in a right win speaker, there will be threats of violence from the left, and massive security costs - often to the point of shutting down someone speaking from a conservative viewpoint. The "might" of being willing to threaten, and deliver, on violence once again is very effective at determining who will be permitted to speak.
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Oh, that was genius, I grant you that. Pretty convoluted, but that was the intention, right?
Some "right wing" speakers actually have something to say. However, many do not ie, Ann Coulter and that Milo guy. I've watched speeches by both of them, and they just have nothing to add to the conversation. But to conclude that having to spend x amount of money in security costs constitutes "might" is pretty far out there. Spend the damn money. Or let Coulter et al start a gofundme page for their security costs.
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Bill, I can't access this article about expanded drone activity in N. Africa. Can you tell us why our military has done this? Thanks.
National Security U.S. has secretly expanded its global network of drone bases to North Africa
By Adam Entous and Missy Ryan October 26, 2016
The Pentagon has secretly expanded its global network of drone bases to North Africa, deploying unmanned aircraft and U.S. military personnel to a facility in Tunisia to conduct spy missions in neighboring Libya.
The Air Force Reaper drones began flying out of the Tunisian base in late June and have played a key role in an extended U.S. air offensive against an Islamic State stronghold in neighboring Libya.
The Obama administration pressed for access to the Tunisian base as part of a security strategy for the broader Middle East that calls for placing drones and small Special Operations teams at a number of facilities within striking distance of militants who could pose a threat to the West.
U.S. officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss an operation that has not been acknowledged, said the drones being flown out of Tunisia were unarmed and were principally being used to collect intelligence on Islamic State targets in Sirte, Libya, where the United States has conducted more than 300 airstrikes since August.
U.S. officials said they sought access to the air base in Tunisia to close a critical “blind spot” for U.S. and Western intelligence services in North Africa, which has become the Islamic State’s largest base of operations outside of Syria and Iraq. The region is also home to al-Qaeda-linked fighters.
Obama administration officials say they have tried to shore up Tunisia’s fledgling democracy and position the country as a key counterterrorism partner in the region. Although the drones operating out of Tunisia conduct only surveillance missions, U.S. officials said they could be armed in the future if Tunisia gives the United States permission. The Tunisian Embassy in Washington declined to comment.
The U.S. military has other drone bases on the African continent, from Niger to Djibouti. But officials said they were too far from populous areas on the Libyan coast to be useful in day-to-day counter terrorism operations there. The longer drones have to travel to reach their destinations, the less time they have to “loiter” over their targets.
For lethal strikes in Libya, the U.S. military has relied on manned U.S. aircraft based in Europe and armed drones flown out of Naval Air Station Sigonella on the Italian island of Sicily.
Sigonella is relatively close to Sirte, but flights from the base are routinely canceled because of cloud cover over the Mediterranean and other weather-related issues, officials said.
U.S. logistical concerns about using Sigonella and other bases in Europe for operations in North Africa prompted the Pentagon’s push for a facility on Tunisian soil.
The Obama administration has kept its negotiations over access to the base secret for more than a year because of concerns that Tunisia’s young democracy, worried about being closely associated with an outside military power, would pull out of the talks, or that militants would step up attacks in the North African country.
The Islamic State has already claimed a number of attacks in Tunisia over the past two years, including the killing of dozens of foreign tourists at a beach resort in 2015.
Defense officials said the Pentagon has deployed about 70 military personnel to Tunisia to oversee drone operations there.
Tunisia was the Obama administration’s first choice of countries in North Africa to host U.S. drones because of its proximity to Libya and Washington’s interest in rapidly expanding security ties with the government.
But U.S. officials said the negotiations came at a particularly delicate time. Five years after their uprising against dictator Zine el-Abidine Ben Ali, Tunisians have grown increasingly frustrated with many of their post-revolution leaders. In the summer, disaffection over the economy and security boiled over, leading to the premier’s ouster.
Tunisian officials negotiating the drone deal were particularly concerned about a public backlash over cooperation with a foreign power and wanted to avoid the appearance that they were a party to U.S. military operations in a neighboring country.
At the same time, Tunisian officials were eager to secure additional U.S. support for their counter terrorism fight at home. Tunisian officials were especially worried that an eventual assault on Islamic State hideouts in Libya could send militants streaming across the border into Tunisia.
The United States was already conducting manned surveillance flights over Tunisia, providing the country’s security forces with intelligence about extremist threats. That program helped smooth the way in Tunis for Washington’s request to base drones there.
U.S. military officials in Washington and Stuttgart, Germany, where Africa Command is based, grew increasingly eager to strike a deal with Tunisia this past spring.
Opening a drone base there would help clear the way for the long-awaited Sirte operation, they said.
A brazen attack in March on a town near the Libyan border provided proof for some Tunisian officials of why more U.S. help might be required.
Under the memorandum of understanding giving the Pentagon access to the base, the Americans committed to helping build up Tunisia’s intelligence-collection capabilities.
While Tunisia is racing to grow its own aerial surveillance program, with U.S.-manufactured ScanEagles and other light manned surveillance aircraft, the country remains reliant on the United States and other allies for intelligence about militants.
As part of the new arrangements, the Obama administration agreed to share intelligence from the Reapers with Tunisian security forces to help them improve border security. But so far, the United States has made drone flights inside Libya the priority and officials said that is unlikely to change at least until the campaign in Sirte winds down. The battle in Sirte has already lasted far longer than U.S. officials had expected, as effective Islamic State defenses and repercussions from Libya’s political crisis slow the advance of local forces backed by U.S. air power.
The United States’ second military intervention in Libya in five years has underscored the challenge that the Obama administration has faced getting even close NATO allies such as Italy to open their bases to armed U.S. drones.
While U.S. surveillance drones have been based in Sigonella since 2011, the Italian government refused to give the U.S. military permission to fly armed drones out of the base until earlier this year, citing concerns about sparking an anti war backlash at home.
Desperate to fill the intelligence void over Libya, the United States briefly had to use drones based in faraway Jordan.
The Obama administration had considered opening backup talks with Egypt about putting a drone base there to support operations in Libya. But U.S. officials said those talks were never initiated.
Note the article was published before the current administration, I think it is likely that the area of operation has expanded.
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Oh, that was genius, I grant you that. Pretty convoluted, but that was the intention, right?
Some "right wing" speakers actually have something to say. However, many do not ie, Ann Coulter and that Milo guy. I've watched speeches by both of them, and they just have nothing to add to the conversation. But to conclude that having to spend x amount of money in security costs constitutes "might" is pretty far out there. Spend the damn money. Or let Coulter et al start a gofundme page for their security costs.
The security cost is necessary because left wingers threaten violence.
Would you be telling a liberal speaker to pay for their security costs if the conservatives were threatening violence?
Seems to me that one side is more violent when someone they disagree with speaks.
And it is not for you, or me, to determine which speakers "have something to say". I personally feel Rachael Maddow has nothing to add to the conversation, but it is not my place to imply that she should not be speaking.
But to conclude that having to spend x amount of money in security costs constitutes "might" is pretty far out there.
You missed my point. My point was that threatening violence, to the point where the other side constrains what may be said in public, is an example of might.
The Muslims have enforced a speech code on the media through the use of force or threatened force. Making someone behave in a way they do not want to by use of violence is the definition of might.
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Sure! If a "liberal speaker" couldn't speak at some location because of the threat of violence, I certainly WOULD suggest they start a gofundme page to cover security costs!
Just because it "seems to you" that "left wingers" threaten violence doesn't make that the reality. But I do agree that it seems that these days, any kind of peaceful protest is more likely to be infiltrated by people who have no core beliefs other than to stir up trouble wherever they can. I personally would prefer that conservative speakers speak freely on campus because that's the only way they will be exposed for what they truly are.
Rachel Maddow is certainly very liberal, but to claim that she has nothing to add to the conversation means you are not listening. You can vehemently disagree with every single thing she believes or has to say, but to so casually dismiss her journalism is rather facile. We all know that Ann Coulter and Milo Y. are mere provocateurs. They are hardly investigative journalists as is Maddow. I have seen them and listened to them very closely, and I have yet to figure out what they actually believe in. Milo fascinates me. I love listening to him speak because he IS a provocateur, and I find him to be entertaining. But when he is questioned by thoughtful people, his act crumbles and he is left looking rather silly, and I find myself feeling sorry for him.
I most certainly can determine if certain speakers "have something to say"! That's what critical thinking is for.
As for threatening violence being an example of "might", OK, whatever. I suppose Harvey Weinstein would be a better judge of that. I also suppose one could say the same for an abusive husband.
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Thanks for the whole article, Bill.
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I most certainly can determine if certain speakers "have something to say"! That's what critical thinking is for.
It is an opinion, not a judgement. Stating it as an objective fact implies that there are not other equally sincerely held viewpoints.
Did you notice that Coulter was one of the few (maybe only) people who said that Trump was the only Republican running (out of a then huge field) with any chance of winning? Seems like that was "something to say".
As for threatening violence being an example of "might", OK, whatever. I suppose Harvey Weinstein would be a better judge of that. I also suppose one could say the same for an abusive husband.
Yup, but might has turned on him and he no longer has it. PSGWSP.
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It is indeed a sad day when Leftists can peacefully talk and poison the minds of other leftists, but a "Right Winger" Should pay for protection when they speak. How is that equal or fair? It isnt, but that is the way it is.
Donald Trump was more than likely the most honest man on the stage of the debates, other than Mike Huckabee. You can stand there and call DJT any thing you want. This is a free country. You can also choose to listen too Rachel Maddow :puke; altho I do wonder who does the cooking and cleaning at your house, since you spend most of your days researching and complaining. And you do know everything about everything. I think you and K&S should get together more often. The negativity from you two could blow the entire world apart. Now, there is " might" No doubt about it.
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I just heard that trump said to the widow of the fallen green beret killed in Africa. This man has the nerve to cast aspersions on black football players for kneeling during the anthem saying it disrespects service men. Then the moron tells the widow that he knew what he was signing up for. Then he accuses the widow and congress women of living even though he was heard on a speaker phone and there were other witnesses. He says something stupid then lies about it. One of the major news organizations has been tracking his lies since he became president, last count well over a thousand lies or exaggerations. He takes every opportunity to congratulate himself on his limited achievements. A bully, braggart, and a moron it’s some president the people choose.
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He SAID, the soldier knew what he was signing up for and did it any way. He is a real Hero. ( meaning the deceased Soldier ) Are you people going deef???? Dont take what the alleged news prints for truth. Hear what DJT actually said.
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I found this Rachel Maddow segment to be very informative, https://youtu.be/gXJi1-y5_GA (https://youtu.be/gXJi1-y5_GA)
No one asked the president about condolence calls/letters, this whole thing was manufactured by the president. What is unclear about that? And why is nothing being said around the circumstances of these deaths not the presidential contact after the fact. The circumstances in Africa not those in DC. Rachel Maddow does a good job reporting here credit where credit is due.
FYI this segment builds on the previous segment which is also good https://youtu.be/dfMtXl10g-A (https://youtu.be/dfMtXl10g-A)
And this Morning Joe also gives well reported context of the call https://youtu.be/aTz04Vxhr0s (https://youtu.be/aTz04Vxhr0s)
I'd welcome any links to similarly well reported segments from sources the president's supporters find informative.
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Unfortunately for LYIN Donald the call was taken in the Widows car, on a speaker phone, with witnesses other than the congresswoman. Trump insulted the widow and defamed the memory of one of America’s best. And his claim the democrats were politically biased and should not be using the death for political gain when the moron said Bus and Obama never called families and at least he did. Obama called and Bush called family members even though it took a considerable amount of time due to the increased amount of casualties during theiir presidencies. One more time trump talks like he is a hero.and anyone else is a shumck the trump supporters need to pull their heads out of their butts and recognize what they have made president.
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Bill said:
I'd welcome any links to similarly well reported segments from sources the president's supporters find informative.
Therein lies the problem. Both sides consider the sources from the other side "fake news." Having said that, those on the right tend to disparage fact checking, while those on the left are more likely to fact check. Studies have shown this to be true:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2017/06/09/study-conservatives-despise-the-fact-checking-industry/?utm_term=.f000964dde76 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2017/06/09/study-conservatives-despise-the-fact-checking-industry/?utm_term=.f000964dde76)
So, how do we bridge this gap in verifying our sources?
I also welcome links that back up the claims made by supporters of the *president.* But then, the fact-checking should commence on both sides.
Aleta
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altho I do wonder who does the cooking and cleaning at your house, since you spend most of your days researching and complaining.
Okey dokey! Here's my activity schedule from yesterday!
Awakened at 7:20 AM and jiggled my husband awake as his alarm clock is on the fritz.
7:30AM emptied the dishwasher as my tea was brewing. Then ate breakfast consisting of cereal with banana slices and Michigan blueberries. Reloaded dishwasher. Made the bed.
8:00 AM Started laundry. It was a "whites and lights" day, so laundered hubby's dress shirts.
8:20 AM Shifted newly washed clothes to dryer.
8:45 AM Took dress shirts out of dryer and hung them up while still hot so that they wouldn't wrinkle. Took said shirts upstairs and hung them in hubby's closet, and then went back downstairs to retrieve other dried clothes. Hauled them back upstairs, folded them and put them away.
9:15 AM It was still a little cool outside, so while the day was still warming up, I remained indoors to clean the hardwood flooring upstairs. I recommend Bona products for this particular chore! Their microfiber sweepers and mops are outstanding.
9:39 AM My husband is one of those men who leaves "trails", so I always need to take some time in the mornings to clean up after whatever it was that he ate or did the previous evening. I like to go to bed a bit early to get in some reading time as I am generally too busy during the day to sit down and read. This means retrieving the various remotes, fluffing pillows and folding blankets (he gets cold easily).
10:00 AM It's a bit warmer now outside; a perfect fall day. Our city has a brush collection every month, and as I've been away for so long over the past couple of months, there is plenty of yard work to do. My husband likes having a nice garden but doesn't like doing what it takes to make and keep it that way. Brush collection is tomorrow, so yesterday I spent 3 hours in the front and back gardens. The first leaf pick up of the year is coming up, so there was a lot of raking AND brush hauling to do. My back garden is on a decline, so the brush I have to have disposed of has to be hauled from the bottom of the garden, along the side path next to our house and then along the driveway and onto the curb. There were 2 small "trash trees" that I wanted to get rid of because they just looked, well, trashy, so I sawed them down and then sawed those into several manageable pieces. There were many other sizeable branches that had blown down from my yard and also from our neighbors' yards, so I gathered those and made about 5 trips to the curb to add them to my growing pile of brush.
12:30 PM I started doing some raking and added to my impressively large pile of leaves for pick up, but then it started getting windy, which meant that the leaves I'd gathered started blowing around. I decided to wait for calmer conditions on another day. By this time, I realized I was getting hungry.
1:00 PM Lunch, and then after lunch clean up.
1:45 PM The weather has been so nice for quite a while now, so I've been keeping the kitchen windows open so that I can see my trees turning colors! I have an oblong copper table along the wall beneath the windows, and I noticed that the items I keep on that table (my grandmother's clock and a beautiful wooden bowl in which I keep chocolate) needed cleaning. I removed said items and used a special wood cleaner that I have and polished them up. I cleaned the copper table and replaced the clock and bowl.
2:15 PM This is probably the time when I need a bit of a sit down. I went online to retrieve emails, get lab results, check various sports scores (not good ones, it transpired) and, as it happened, look at IHD. This is my researchin' and complainin' time! Yay, right? Mind you, I may well have been researchin' and complainin' at a different time during yesterday (just as I'm doing now). I don't remember the exact times, but I'm sure you can check that out.
Sometime later in the afternoon: I noticed that my stairs needed dusting, so I got out my handy vac and did that.
Since it was meant to be a chilly evening, I brought some of my potted plants indoors for the evening. I noticed that my some of my sedums were looking a bit messy, so I spend the next half hour cutting them back and getting rid of the dead stems. I also cut back my peonies and hibiscus and added the spent stems to the brush pile.
At 5:15 I sat down and watched a bit of the news until hubby came home. I watched that sad interview with the gold star family. Made me cry.
Hubby is battling type 2 diabetes and has lost over 70 lbs. He has a treadmill and walks every evening, but when the weather is nice, we like to walk outside. We did just that at around 6PM.
Dinner! Actually, because of his diabetes, I've pretty much handed the kitchen over to him. So yes, he DOES do most of the cooking mostly because he's a bit of a fusspot. I want him to be comfortable with his meals, and as he is fastidious about counting carbs, and since there are specific meals he likes, he is quite happy to do the cooking. He's not so thrilled about cleaning up afterwards, so I do that. We had tacos last night made with buffalo meat cooked with adobo sauce. An easy meal to make, but my goodness, there were a lot of bowls and pots to clean up. I put the leftovers away and loaded and ran the dishwasher.
I was pretty tired after all of that, so I decided to take an early shower. I had washed my hair the evening before and had used a new conditioner. As I got into the shower last night, I could feel that there was residue from it and it felt gross and slippery, so I scrubbed down the tub.
And that was the end of a typical day for me.
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Trump just claimed the democrats, FBI, and Russians conspired to fix the 2016 election. He just troughs crap hoping something will stick.
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Trump just claimed the democrats, FBI, and Russians conspired to fix the 2016 election. He just troughs crap hoping something will stick.
Call a lie a lie...
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This quote from a random commenter on a WaPo article The security bill is for protection from disrupters. The left wing disrupters should foot the bill.... seems to be the sentiment of most conservatives who post on the internet.
Yet I ask did you suggest the same thing when anti abortion activists (and murders) protested in front of abortion clinics? Those protesters did their best to prevent people and providers from accessing abortion clinics and the clinics or landlords were stuck footing the bill to protect the providers and clients from bodily harm and general harassment...
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Yet I ask did you suggest the same thing when anti abortion activists (and murders) protested in front of abortion clinics?
I most certainly would. The solution is to arrest and prosecute those unlawfully interfering with movement, not shutdown the clinic. (which is what is done when enough liberals shout down and threaten a conservative speaker).
This is the kind of thing I was referring to: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/19/uc-santa-cruz-college-republicans-meeting-disrupted-by-leftist-protesters-three-arrested.html
Some on the left feel their position is so righteous that they actually have the right to demand that opposing viewpoints be shut down rather than allow them to participate in the marketplace of thought and ideas.
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Simon dog as a card carrying liberal I completely agree with your last post. Freedom of speech means just that. Every one has a right to express there opinions in a free society. The bizarre Antifa movement (anti fascists). Are what they oppose a little group of fascists trying to dictate thought and speech. They should move to China or Iran where they would fit in perfectly.