I Hate Dialysis Message Board
Dialysis Discussion => Dialysis: General Discussion => Topic started by: talker on April 11, 2014, 07:36:21 AM
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Many posts in this forum reflect such sadness, that responding in any fashion seems fruitless.
What often, can be said, is based on ones own personal experiences and beliefs.
Those personal experiences and belief factors can bias and skew how comments are made in posts.
(From reading of some older posts in this forum, saw some that reflect and hint at what must have been some dandy religious wars, although I've not yet found any such religious wars, postings.)
Actually started to respond to 'Thank you for letting me whine', and had to back off as my words of comfort, took on a spiritual depth that could well offend some.
:oops;
So I backed off and didn't post.
For many, spirituality can take the form of religious observance, prayer, meditation or a belief in a higher power. For some, it can be found in nature, music, and art. Spirituality amounts to different strokes for different folks. It's not necessarily connected to a specific belief system or even religious worship.
Were, that one could speak from the heart, without causing a disrupting ruckus and endless controversy. :Kit n Stik;
talker
EDITED:Moved to general discussion due to dialysis topics discussed- kitkatz-Admin
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Well said.
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It is not always easy to respond to a post from someone who is new on IHD and has shared their fear and/or anger. But I figure that if they've shown the courage and trust to post, then I can certainly show the same and respond.
I do not believe that anyone posts here to intentionally cause offense. I might read something that rubs me the wrong way, but I trust that no offense is intended.
Posts that may offend one person may well be just what another needs to hear.
Be brave. Don't ever ignore anyone in obvious pain.
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Well said.
Thank you kindly amanda100wilson for the kind words.
Ha, your interesting signature shows:
'Healthy people may look upon me as weak because of my illness, but my illness has given me strength that they can't begin to imagine'.
Would enjoy (some day) sharing my point of view regards those 'telling' words just above. Sheesh, yes, I can imagine, and from my perspective 'know' the full beauty within those words. Yup, is a 'talker 'tale waiting for expression.
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It is not always easy to respond to a post from someone who is new on IHD and has shared their fear and/or anger. But I figure that if they've shown the courage and trust to post, then I can certainly show the same and respond.
I do not believe that anyone posts here to intentionally cause offense. I might read something that rubs me the wrong way, but I trust that no offense is intended.
Posts that may offend one person may well be just what another needs to hear.
Be brave. Don't ever ignore anyone in obvious pain.
Hello MooseMom, points well taken. Thank you.
I have, in the painting of my life's tapestry, literally gone where Angels probably feared to go.
Just using simple terms like : Jesus the Christ, bible, being gay, love. hate, and healing energies can stir some into storms of vituperative raging.
A normal exchange of thoughts in or on any of those concepts or words, I welcome, other wise I just ignore those specific rants.
I silently offer prayers for those in pain, even if I've not done a post.
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Talker, I understand and respect your concerns.
I have never seen any vituperative raging on IHD to a simple "I offer prayers to you," or "You are in my prayers." Someone who posts about their pain will remain unaware of your silent offer of prayers. This is not a time to remain silent. You are indeed a "talker", and you have a good command of the English language. I'm very confident you can find words of comfort that are heartfelt yet inoffensive. How about, "You are in my thoughts."?
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Even though I am an atheist, I am never offended when someone offers prayers for my comfort. To me it is simply their way of telling me they care. :cuddle;
I agree with Moosemom, offer support and caring. It is our human connections that often soothe our souls when we are hurting.
Aleta
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Even though I am an atheist, I am never offended when someone offers prayers for my comfort. To me it is simply their way of telling me they care. :cuddle;
I agree with Moosemom, offer support and caring. It is our human connections that often soothe our souls when we are hurting.
Aleta
Thank you willowtreewren for your thoughts here.
May I inquire here, out of genuine interest, if you as an atheist, would explain how you relate to the soul concept, or was it a figure of speech as used above!
I ask, because on certain TV programs I've listened to, express mention was made, and as an atheist, 'we live and then we die, period'.
No offense taken if you would rather skip that explain part.
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I used the term "soul" figuratively. I might have said, "soothe our emotions" but that lacks alliterative value.
Because I have no afterlife in my world view, I believe very strongly in THIS life and work hard at enriching the world for the living. I do this out of a strong sense of ethics and not for any "reward." other than the self-satisfaction it gives me to do so. You will find throughout the atheist community a strong humanitarian ethic. It is a human value that springs from our human qualities. Many religions have maintained that normal human qualities come from religious doctrine and humans have to be taught to behave thusly for fear of punishment (or to gain the reward of eternal life).
While I don't fear death (and interestingly I have not encountered a single atheist who does), I in no way want to hasten it. On the other hand, if I should become a permanent burden on my family or community, I might choose death instead of the alternative. Support of euthanasia runs substantially higher among the non-religious since it carries no stigma and has no sin associated with it.
Many among the religious think that atheists must be miserable, unhappy people. Nothing could be further from the truth. We live life fully, knowing that this one precious life we have is not a dress rehearsal for something later. We love deeply (divorce among atheists is far less common that among Christians), thrill to the beauties of the universe, and contribute to our communities. If there is one area of life that might add to sadness it might be that many of us cannot be open about our atheism, since there is so much prejudice against atheists. Fortunately, even that is beginning to change.
Atheists are some of the nicest people you don't realize you know.
Aleta
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Lovely spoken Wiilwtreewren. I used to ask my dad to pray for people on the site who asked for them. He used to appreciate me asking, but never understood why I wouldn't do so myself.
Love, Cas
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Interesting points of view from all.
I haven't seen any negative comments in any of the threads I've read, so far.
But I have noticed one member has been so upset that he edited and removed EVERY posting he has ever made. I was so concerned as this behavior is quite distressing. I contacted a Moderator and learned that there has been a history of this person and another having quite the disagreement. That it came to the post the one member literally withdrew ever one of his posting and has not been heard of since.
A terrible loss, for him, and for the group.
Every voice needs to be heard.
But if you cannot to politely agree to disagree, and instead flame another member, I would have to agree with Moderator that the offending statements, or the offending poster, should be sanctioned. Either require the offenders posts to be approved before posting or an outright ban. I would hate to ban anyone, but sometimes people just can't, or won't, play nice and continue to respect another persons right to hold a differing opinion of one's own.
Pretty much my same attitude towards religion. I would like to think that I have beliefs. But I can't claim any denomination, or identify with any named church or religion.
But I respect others rights to believe, or not believe, in whatever manner they wish. Until they infringe on the well-being of anyone else they should be free to does as they please. Once anyone does infringe upon anyone else then the offending person or persons should be sanctioned however necessary to ensure the safety and freedom of all others.
Now I have to edit this, my right ring finger has a terrible habit of getting too heavy as well as striking the wrong key far too many times.
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Cas and Charlie! :2thumbsup;
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I used the term "soul" figuratively. I might have said, "soothe our emotions" but that lacks alliterative value.
Because I have no afterlife in my world view, I believe very strongly in THIS life and work hard at enriching the world for the living. I do this out of a strong sense of ethics and not for any "reward." other than the self-satisfaction it gives me to do so. You will find throughout the atheist community a strong humanitarian ethic. It is a human value that springs from our human qualities. Many religions have maintained that normal human qualities come from religious doctrine and humans have to be taught to behave thusly for fear of punishment (or to gain the reward of eternal life).
While I don't fear death (and interestingly I have not encountered a single atheist who does), I in no way want to hasten it. On the other hand, if I should become a permanent burden on my family or community, I might choose death instead of the alternative. Support of euthanasia runs substantially higher among the non-religious since it carries no stigma and has no sin associated with it.
Many among the religious think that atheists must be miserable, unhappy people. Nothing could be further from the truth. We live life fully, knowing that this one precious life we have is not a dress rehearsal for something later. We love deeply (divorce among atheists is far less common that among Christians), thrill to the beauties of the universe, and contribute to our communities. If there is one area of life that might add to sadness it might be that many of us cannot be open about our atheism, since there is so much prejudice against atheists. Fortunately, even that is beginning to change.
Atheists are some of the nicest people you don't realize you know.
Aleta
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Namaste willowtreewren,
Your reply, is to me, a poetry in motion explanation.
I share and believe as you have expressed, with one major difference, my point of view includes 'with' an afterlife.
No longer the beliefs, though, as taught to me as a child so many decades ago.
Deep were the shake. rattle and 'oh no's' schism, that tore deeply into my fabric of beliefs.
Did express, and use, parts of my blog as a sounding board.
There I endeavored to put into words, some of my gestating and maturing beliefs.
Difficult as it is, actually expressing beliefs in written words, and then reading those same words are and can be quite revealing to one.
:shy;
talker
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I am afraid I am not politically correct when I have something to say. I will respond with what my own experience has taught me. That is why the joke about me is 'I have nothing to say'.
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I am afraid I am not politically correct when I have something to say. I will respond with what my own experience has taught me. That is why the joke about me is 'I have nothing to say'.
Love you, Iketchum. :flower;
Sporting a brand, spanking new kidney, no less!
:cuddle;
Aleta
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Talker, you and Iketchum make for a perfect match! :rofl;
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I used the term "soul" figuratively. I might have said, "soothe our emotions" but that lacks alliterative value.
Because I have no afterlife in my world view, I believe very strongly in THIS life and work hard at enriching the world for the living. I do this out of a strong sense of ethics and not for any "reward." other than the self-satisfaction it gives me to do so. You will find throughout the atheist community a strong humanitarian ethic. It is a human value that springs from our human qualities. Many religions have maintained that normal human qualities come from religious doctrine and humans have to be taught to behave thusly for fear of punishment (or to gain the reward of eternal life).
While I don't fear death (and interestingly I have not encountered a single atheist who does), I in no way want to hasten it. On the other hand, if I should become a permanent burden on my family or community, I might choose death instead of the alternative. Support of euthanasia runs substantially higher among the non-religious since it carries no stigma and has no sin associated with it.
Many among the religious think that atheists must be miserable, unhappy people. Nothing could be further from the truth. We live life fully, knowing that this one precious life we have is not a dress rehearsal for something later. We love deeply (divorce among atheists is far less common that among Christians), thrill to the beauties of the universe, and contribute to our communities. If there is one area of life that might add to sadness it might be that many of us cannot be open about our atheism, since there is so much prejudice against atheists. Fortunately, even that is beginning to change.
Atheists are some of the nicest people you don't realize you know.
Aleta
So well-said, Aleta! I learned from this, having never seen the stats for divorce among atheists.
Here in England (the part where I reside, anyhow) there is no separation of church and state and very little attempt to be inclusive of all religions and atheism within schools. However, I feel comfortable telling people that I'm an atheist here, if the subject comes up, which it rarely does. To me, it's a strange mix of assuming everyone is Christian while not really caring if they learn that that isn't true. Hard to describe, although I think the social scientists call it 'secular Christianity'. In a very British way, most of them seem to just go through the motions of attending church and inviting the vicar to schools because that's what you do, and it keeps you in social contact with the people around you.
Thanks for speaking so eloquently on behalf of all of us across the globe! :beer1;
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I used the term "soul" figuratively. I might have said, "soothe our emotions" but that lacks alliterative value.
Because I have no afterlife in my world view, I believe very strongly in THIS life and work hard at enriching the world for the living. I do this out of a strong sense of ethics and not for any "reward." other than the self-satisfaction it gives me to do so. You will find throughout the atheist community a strong humanitarian ethic. It is a human value that springs from our human qualities. Many religions have maintained that normal human qualities come from religious doctrine and humans have to be taught to behave thusly for fear of punishment (or to gain the reward of eternal life).
While I don't fear death (and interestingly I have not encountered a single atheist who does), I in no way want to hasten it. On the other hand, if I should become a permanent burden on my family or community, I might choose death instead of the alternative. Support of euthanasia runs substantially higher among the non-religious since it carries no stigma and has no sin associated with it.
Many among the religious think that atheists must be miserable, unhappy people. Nothing could be further from the truth. We live life fully, knowing that this one precious life we have is not a dress rehearsal for something later. We love deeply (divorce among atheists is far less common that among Christians), thrill to the beauties of the universe, and contribute to our communities. If there is one area of life that might add to sadness it might be that many of us cannot be open about our atheism, since there is so much prejudice against atheists. Fortunately, even that is beginning to change.
Atheists are some of the nicest people you don't realize you know.
Aleta
So well-said, Aleta! I learned from this, having never seen the stats for divorce among atheists.
Here in England (the part where I reside, anyhow) there is no separation of church and state and very little attempt to be inclusive of all religions and atheism within schools. However, I feel comfortable telling people that I'm an atheist here, if the subject comes up, which it rarely does. To me, it's a strange mix of assuming everyone is Christian while not really caring if they learn that that isn't true. Hard to describe, although I think the social scientists call it 'secular Christianity'. In a very British way, most of them seem to just go through the motions of attending church and inviting the vicar to schools because that's what you do, and it keeps you in social contact with the people around you.
Thanks for speaking so eloquently on behalf of all of us across the globe! :beer1;
Well shucks, are atheists better people then, is that the conclusion? Not sure what message is spread with that statistic.
However, I will take issue with the conclusion that the research themselves did not draw despite the widespread media coverage of their findings. Here is what they stated:
Thirty percent of atheists and agnostics had been married and subsequently divorced. However, the three-point difference from the national average was within the range of sampling error, suggesting that their likelihood of experiencing a dissolved marriage is the same as that of the population at-large. A representative from Barna also pointed out the atheists and agnostics have lower rates of marriage and a higher likelihood of cohabitation, a combination of behaviors that distort comparisons with other segments.
They state that you cannot directly compare married Christian couples with married atheist couples because so few who are atheist marry in the first place choosing to cohabitate instead.
The fact that about 1/3 of all categories surveyed end have at least one divorce speaks not of who is better but instead that we all fall short in the eyes of God.
I was divorced from my first wife before I was saved in 1994. My ex-wife came from a very dysfunctional family and I was naive enough to believe I could help her to blossom once she got away from their abusive relationship. Well, two years later, I came to realize I had forgotten about the phone and secondly that you can't overcome the type of abuse she had suffered for 24 years before we were married.
Her mother finally offered her acceptance if she left me. It was a lie of course and the abuse worsened when she returned but this time with my son in tow.
Many people divorce and that has been part of our fallen nature for quite some time but it is not what God intended.
The survey itself does not draw the conclusions that you draw above nor that is drawn in the popular press. No wonder there is a lower divorce rate among atheists. They don't marry as often as Christian couples. What conclusions can you draw from that inference? Certainly not the ones you are trying to imply.
Just my own two cents worth.
Moosemom, get the popcorn. :boxing;
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Interesting points of view from all.
I haven't seen any negative comments in any of the threads I've read, so far.
But I have noticed one member has been so upset that he edited and removed EVERY posting he has ever made. I was so concerned as this behavior is quite distressing. I contacted a Moderator and learned that there has been a history of this person and another having quite the disagreement. That it came to the post the one member literally withdrew ever one of his posting and has not been heard of since.
A terrible loss, for him, and for the group.
Every voice needs to be heard.
But if you cannot to politely agree to disagree, and instead flame another member, I would have to agree with Moderator that the offending statements, or the offending poster, should be sanctioned. Either require the offenders posts to be approved before posting or an outright ban. I would hate to ban anyone, but sometimes people just can't, or won't, play nice and continue to respect another persons right to hold a differing opinion of one's own.
Pretty much my same attitude towards religion. I would like to think that I have beliefs. But I can't claim any denomination, or identify with any named church or religion.
But I respect others rights to believe, or not believe, in whatever manner they wish. Until they infringe on the well-being of anyone else they should be free to does as they please. Once anyone does infringe upon anyone else then the offending person or persons should be sanctioned however necessary to ensure the safety and freedom of all others.
Now I have to edit this, my right ring finger has a terrible habit of getting too heavy as well as striking the wrong key far too many times.
Dear Charlie, the IHD moderators don't get readily involved in the political or religious discussions on IHD any longer. Getting banned from IHD is a rare event unless you are a spammer. Have I wanted intervention by the moderators in the past? Yes, but they choose to not babysit the political and religious discussions. It is wide open and essentially unmoderated. That makes it interesting and aggravating at times when people choose instead to voice personal attacks, but that is IHD. On the other hand it is also one of the few places where you can say just about anything you want without sanctions. That makes it special in a different sort of way, but not easy to participate for sure. Thick skin and sense of humor and not taking things too seriously is required. That is IHD.
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But I have noticed one member has been so upset that he edited and removed EVERY posting he has ever made.
Oh gosh, I missed this! I want to ask who removed all of his posts, but I don't want to stir up anything. I'm sorry to hear this. That's too bad.
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MooseMom, I was thinking the same thing - actually, I was thinking "What? Who? When?" ??? If you figure it out PM me, I"m not as brave as you are, and I certainly don't want to stir anything up either!
I will share your popcorn, though! :popcorn;
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The survey itself does not draw the conclusions that you draw above nor that is drawn in the popular press. No wonder there is a lower divorce rate among atheists. They don't marry as often as Christian couples. What conclusions can you draw from that inference? Certainly not the ones you are trying to imply.
Just my own two cents worth.
Moosemom, get the popcorn. :boxing;
Hemodoc, the ONLY reason I even brought up the divorce rate is because quite often atheists are painted as miserable, unloving and unloved people, not as you imply to prove that atheists are "better" people. You are the one who tried to make it seem that way. Then you brought up your own unfortunate choice in marriage. I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean.
Of everything I had to say about being an atheist and my policy of tolerance, it appears you are trying to make it seem like I am focusing on divorce. I wasn't, but it seems you are.
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Oh gosh, I missed this! I want to ask who removed all of his posts, but I don't want to stir up anything. I'm sorry to hear this. That's too bad.
I believe that is one of our teenage members and he removed all of his posts himself.
8)
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Even though I am an atheist, I am never offended when someone offers prayers for my comfort. To me it is simply their way of telling me they care. :cuddle;
I agree with Moosemom, offer support and caring. It is our human connections that often soothe our souls when we are hurting.
Aleta
i couldnt begin to say what religion i am lol im my own concoction... but i personally feel pretty loved when someone says they will pray for me, while i personally dont believe in praying, i give my love and thoughts to those who need it, (my own version of praying i suppose?) its nice that they would care enough to spend that time thinking of me.
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Oh gosh, I missed this! I want to ask who removed all of his posts, but I don't want to stir up anything. I'm sorry to hear this. That's too bad.
I believe that is one of our teenage members and he removed all of his posts himself.
8)
I worded my post very poorly. I didn't mean to imply that someone else removed his posts. I should have said "I want to ask who removed all of his OWN posts..."
I still have no idea who this member is. When did this happen?
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I still have no idea who this member is. When did this happen?
It was Henry P Snicklesnorter. He was so appalled at the way Rerun derided Obsidian after one of Obsidian's posts and the way Rerun behaved afterwards.
Henry P was one of the most helpful, upbeat and informative posters this site had. It was sad that he deleted all his posts, but he did not feel he wanted to continue here.
I no longer feel that it a safe place to post either, and I have changed my avatar to the one that the moderators changed Henry P's avatar to.
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I still have no idea who this member is. When did this happen?
It was Henry P Snicklesnorter. He was so appalled at the way Rerun derided Obsidian after one of Obsidian's posts and the way Rerun behaved afterwards.
Henry P was one of the most helpful, upbeat and informative posters this site had. It was sad that he deleted all his posts, but he did not feel he wanted to continue here.
I no longer feel that it a safe place to post either, and I have changed my avatar to the one that the moderators changed Henry P's avatar to.
I was wrong … I guess I didn't remember the incident.
:banghead;
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Hemodoc, the ONLY reason I even brought up the divorce rate is because quite often atheists are painted as miserable, unloving and unloved people, not as you imply to prove that atheists are "better" people. You are the one who tried to make it seem that way. Then you brought up your own unfortunate choice in marriage. I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean.
Of everything I had to say about being an atheist and my policy of tolerance, it appears you are trying to make it seem like I am focusing on divorce. I wasn't, but it seems you are.
Well-said again, Aleta! :) Thanks for going through what I absolutely refuse to read.
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The survey itself does not draw the conclusions that you draw above nor that is drawn in the popular press. No wonder there is a lower divorce rate among atheists. They don't marry as often as Christian couples. What conclusions can you draw from that inference? Certainly not the ones you are trying to imply.
Just my own two cents worth.
Moosemom, get the popcorn. :boxing;
Hemodoc, the ONLY reason I even brought up the divorce rate is because quite often atheists are painted as miserable, unloving and unloved people, not as you imply to prove that atheists are "better" people. You are the one who tried to make it seem that way. Then you brought up your own unfortunate choice in marriage. I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean.
Of everything I had to say about being an atheist and my policy of tolerance, it appears you are trying to make it seem like I am focusing on divorce. I wasn't, but it seems you are.
We all have the shared burdens and failures of this life. If you choose to not believe in an afterlife, that is your choice.
I would find it quite hopeless to have no thoughts of a soul and of God. In fact, hopelessness is one of the prevalent risk factors for suicide and atheists do have higher rates of suicide, assisted suicide and hopelessness when facing death according to various studies.
http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html
The study you were referring to above on divorce did not draw the conclusion you alleged it did. Since atheists don't marry as often, of course you will have a lower divorce rate. The demographics are not comparable as the authors of this study noted but that is not what was reported in the popular press.
And yes, it was an unfortunate choice in marriage brought on actually by a hope of a better life for the girl. Unfortunately, the demons of her past would not let her loose. Oddly, It is not with regret that I married her at all as I learned much in this marriage and I have a wonderful son who is doing well. I would not be the first to have made an unfortunate choice for well intended wishes. You live and learn as they say and that was quite the lesson.
Today, I am able to bring some of these lessons to fruition as I help raise my 4 year old granddaughter. I believe completely that this little girl will benefit greatly from my lessons learned from my own adversities.
Now, I do have a question, at the hour of your death, how will you avoid the feeling of helplessness and emptiness as your own life ebbs away into nothingness? I would believe that would be quite frightful myself. I am thankful for the blessed hope and promises of my Saviour and of a better existence to come. I believe in a soul and that the soul is eternal as the Bible teaches. I believe we were made in the image of God and that He is eternal as well.
Most of the physicians I worked with in CA had some religious affiliation. One noted exception did not. If you asked him what would happen to him when he died, he said he would turn into worm food. His world view was reflected in many ways in the manner in which he approached end of life care for his patients in a quite cold and dispassionate manner. Most of my colleagues would place the patients best interests above Kaiser as a company and often fight the system for their benefit. He coldly always choice Kaiser over the patients wishes, always. The administration obviously loved him as a steward of the company but we had to pick up the pieces he left behind and often deal with bitter feelings against Kaiser.
I can't help but believe that his callousness was in large part because of his atheism and secondly that there will be no judgement in his world view of his actions at a later time. As a nephrologist, he couldn't stand working in the dialysis unit and his patients were most likely not to have access placed in a timely manner, nor did he ever embrace optimal dialysis protocols at all. He had simply written off all of those of us on dialysis essentially in his mindset. He was a very bright man, but I fear his devotion to atheism and darwinism diminished his capacity for empathy and compassion.
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The survey itself does not draw the conclusions that you draw above nor that is drawn in the popular press. No wonder there is a lower divorce rate among atheists. They don't marry as often as Christian couples. What conclusions can you draw from that inference? Certainly not the ones you are trying to imply.
Just my own two cents worth.
Moosemom, get the popcorn. :boxing;
Hemodoc, the ONLY reason I even brought up the divorce rate is because quite often atheists are painted as miserable, unloving and unloved people, not as you imply to prove that atheists are "better" people. You are the one who tried to make it seem that way. Then you brought up your own unfortunate choice in marriage. I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean.
Of everything I had to say about being an atheist and my policy of tolerance, it appears you are trying to make it seem like I am focusing on divorce. I wasn't, but it seems you are.
Most of the physicians I worked with in CA had some religious affiliation. One noted exception did not. If you asked him what would happen to him when he died, he said he would turn into worm food. His world view was reflected in many ways in the manner in which he approached end of life care for his patients in a quite cold and dispassionate manner. Most of my colleagues would place the patients best interests above Kaiser as a company and often fight the system for their benefit. He coldly always choice Kaiser over the patients wishes, always. The administration obviously loved him as a steward of the company but we had to pick up the pieces he left behind and often deal with bitter feelings against Kaiser.
I can't help but believe that his callousness was in large part because of his atheism and secondly that there will be no judgement in his world view of his actions at a later time. As a nephrologist, he couldn't stand working in the dialysis unit and his patients were most likely not to have access placed in a timely manner, nor did he ever embrace optimal dialysis protocols at all. He had simply written off all of those of us on dialysis essentially in his mindset. He was a very bright man, but I fear his devotion to atheism and darwinism diminished his capacity for empathy and compassion.
I beg to differ because I have my doubt that this neph’s lack of medical assistance to vulnerable patients is directly connected to his atheism...
... and I think a lack of medical integrity and/or a lack of character would much better fit the description ...
... When I was very frail, unwell and at my most vulnerable, I had the misfortune to come across doctors, who showed no skills and no interest to diagnose my symptoms ...
...they demonstrated a lack of medical assistance because they regarded themselves as superior to me with my medical frailties ...
... they looked down on me in superiority because I was so unwell and would have needed their urgent medical help... which they refused to give...
...in fact, I have come across doctors who seem to enjoy a patient’s suffering and they do not assist medically... on purpose...
...These doctors have been known to “mess up” deliberately, so that an early diagnosis is made impossible ...
... This seems to be a phenomena and I have wondered why such doctors became medics...?
... It is doctors/people like that who make me concerned about the fact that so many people wish euthanasia to be easily available if and when needed...
... because euthanasia has been misused by too many wrong people in the past...
... one European "compromise" is a Clinic in Switzerland: anyone who feels they can't go on any longer,
... has to give their reasons before applying and only then may they travel to this Clinic... lost of planning and lots of action involved...
... which may make many people re-think... and that keeps life where it should be : as our most precious asset....
... I believe the above mentioned problem is much deeper and can’t be easily explained away because we don’t really know the answers...
... Schopenhauer would say "the first forty years of our life give us the text; the next thirty supply the commentary on it..."
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I still have no idea who this member is. When did this happen?
It was Henry P Snicklesnorter. He was so appalled at the way Rerun derided Obsidian after one of Obsidian's posts and the way Rerun behaved afterwards.
Henry P was one of the most helpful, upbeat and informative posters this site had. It was sad that he deleted all his posts, but he did not feel he wanted to continue here.
I no longer feel that it a safe place to post either, and I have changed my avatar to the one that the moderators changed Henry P's avatar to.
Thank you Mary, for the information.
I was wondering what happened to Henry Snickelsnorter.
I very much appreciated his information, his humour and optimism... and his witty poems...
... and I do hope he comes back again...
Kind regards from Kristina.
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Thanks Kristina,
There are many forms of atheism and how people derive their logic for rejecting the notion of God. The doctor in question was heavily influenced by evolutionary thought and actively waged war so to speak against people like myself who believe in creationism and the God of the Bible both in his activities and with his monies. I had MANY conversations with him over a period of 11 years, both as a colleague and as a patient. He did not believe in an afterlife, a soul, or an eternal judgement. He was very much a bottom line sort of person who I believe honestly thought that putting Kaiser's financial well being at the forefront of his decision making was for the greater good of all Kaiser patients. Certainly, that is a thought process quite prevalent today. His actions were very much based on his philosophical beliefs. Once again, this was a longstanding conversation and relationship I had with this doctor over an 11 year period of time I worked with him and two years after as a dialysis patient and then casual encounters after I went on home dialysis.
Yes, there are many further elements at play as you state, but certainly his belief system did play a major role in his decision making.
As far as the euthanasia issue, many forget the history of Naziism that was first enacted against the mentally disabled and it was the doctors that helped put involuntary euthanasia into practice in the insane asylums. Yes, doctors with the power to decide euthanasia are a force to be feared for certain. That continues to be one of ethical arguments against legalizing euthanasia and slippery slope it engenders as you noted.
Another aspect that plays into the euthanasia issue is that of quality of life measurements in medical practice. It is quite common for the medical staff to make a comment that the patient has "no quality of life" and urge discontinuation of medical care because of that judgement. I believe that was part of the issue of the nephrologist in question and the manner in which he approached dialysis patients. If you didn't get a transplant, he had little interest in your case. Some conflate the meaning of a person's life with quality of life but meaning cannot be measured by one's disabilities.
The meaning of life is an issue first looked at when I was a teenager with Victor Frankl's book based on his experiences in a Nazi concentration camp. Meaning of life can only be defined by that individual and is not something any doctor can measure by outward appearances. One patient with a severe head injury from a car accident had instructed his wife to "pull the plug" if he couldn't continue in his work. He was a nationally known surgeon who produced teaching videos on
laporascopic surgery. I still remember the neurosurgeon who took him off the ventilator and removed the intracranial monitors. He looked at me and said, I could have saved this man's life and he would have been able to make a profound recovery.
Yet his wife and one of his closest colleagues came 2 hours to his bedside to stop all medical treatment on his second hospital day. Is meaning of life so tenuous that proficiency in your profession is the only meaningful aspect.
It still brings the question on how does an atheist approach the last moments of life? What brings meaning at the moment?
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Thank you, Kristina.
I, too, suspect that this doctor's atheism had little to do with his lack of empathy. I have known several religious doctors who were sorely lacking in that department, but I do not blame their religion for their brusk manner. :2thumbsup;
Hemodoc,
Many atheists stay "in the closet" for fear of social repercussions. Indeed, I am professionally a closet atheist. Unfortunately, for younger atheists - those who think they are alone in their lack of belief - this social isolation can take a heavy emotional toll. Imagine realizing one doesn't share the belief system of your friends and family and not being able to share that truth with them. This sad sense of isolation is hopefully being diminished by efforts of the more prominent atheist figures. I know many atheists who said, "I thought I was the only one," before finding a supportive community of like-minded individuals. I would liken this to realizing one was gay, and feeling there is no one to whom you can turn.
As for "studies" that show that suicide is higher among atheists, the 2004 Zuckerman study was terribly flawed. (see http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/5181 (http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/5181)). Also, the numbers provided by the WHO, list suicides as highest among "atheistic" states. Well, THAT comes as no surprise. Consider those countries: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and, to a lesser extent, Finland, Hungary and the Russian Federation, with China having the highest. I have a strong suspicion that the reason for the higher rates of suicide has nothing to do with religion, but more to do with the type of government found in those countries along with other geographical or cultural factors.
Hemodoc, you merely reinforce my observations that there is a widespread stereotype of the hopeless, unhappy atheist. You seem determined to cling to that stereotype and promote it here.
If you would be hopeless without your religion, then I'm glad you have it to bolster your sense of well being.
As to being hopeless and helpless at the end of life, why no. I am made of atoms that were forged in the center of stars and those very atoms will once again find themselves shining brightly in such firey life. My consciousness will be gone, but I have worked hard in this life to leave the world a better place for those who come after me. I leave an important legacy. At death I can lay down that mantle for a new generation. I don't see a need to cling to a hope of eternal life. This is a fundamental difference between us. I am content to be made of stardust and return to the same.
I am reminded, though of a thread here on IHD several years back where folks struggled with knowing whether stopping dialysis was a form of suicide http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=1113.0 (http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=1113.0). This question was fraught with anxiety for those who had a religious background because of the sanctions against suicide. People worried that committing suicide by stopping their treatments would bar them from the eternal life they hoped awaited them. We atheists are less concerned about that and actually consider suicide under some circumstances the better alternative. That isn't being cold-hearted. In fact, I would consider it compassionate.
I do not intend to change your mind. But I will continue my happy, productive, compassionate existence as your friendly neighborhood atheist.
:2thumbsup;
Aleta
Aleta
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Dear Aleta, dust to dust, ashes to ashes is the fate of all who have walked the earth. If anyone's legacy is that our work left it a better place, I would have to contend that the world is not a better place year by year and day by day. Certainly, the world I grew up in no longer exists and I fear greatly the future for my grandchild. I am not sure how well we are doing to bring about that entity of a better place. Quite badly really in many ways.
As far as religion and withholding of care at end of life, you are frankly quite wrong that religion is against natural processes and withholding care if it is the choice of the person involved. Medically, legally and ethically withholding of care is NOT suicide. As a devout Christian I on many occasions withdrew care at patients and families requests. Perhaps the greatest ethical studies on this subject come not from atheists, but instead from the Roman Catholic Church. Sorry, you are simply wrong on your allegation once again.
As far as atheism, I am not attacking it at all nor am I attacking you. I am simply posing a question on how an atheist derives meaning at his last possible breath. I have accomplished many things in my life which is a legacy, but if all of those accomplishments were my sole source of comfort at the hour of my death, I am afraid I would be sorely at a loss.
I will rest instead on the legacy of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ of Nazareth who created all things that are created and gave His life as a ransom for many. As a man of science, I am not at all deterred by the so called science of evolution declaring God dead. I have examined both and readily understand that evolution fails because it does not rest on science and evidence, but instead on unproven and unknowable assumptions. On the other hand, I can look and see evidence of a worldwide flood all around me and I can embrace the creation with marvelous nano-machines that time and chance could never produce and must have come from an intelligence far beyond our own. No true science stands in support of the creation and the flood, but if folks wish to believe in Darwinism or Neo-Darwinism or Punctuated Equilibrium or the Big Bang so be it. Sorry, I don't buy any of that pseudoscience at all.
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As far as religion and withholding of care at end of life, you are frankly quite wrong that religion is against natural processes and withholding care if it is the choice of the person involved. Medically, legally and ethically withholding of care is NOT suicide. As a devout Christian I on many occasions withdrew care at patients and families requests. Perhaps the greatest ethical studies on this subject come not from atheists, but instead from the Roman Catholic Church. Sorry, you are simply wrong on your allegation once again.
Ah, it seems I have not been clear. I did not make any allegations that withholding treatment is or is not suicide. I also did not say anything to the effect that religion considers withholding treatment wrong.
What I was trying to convey is that people are divided on this topic (as can be seen in the aforementioned thread), but it is fraught with anxiety for those who are more religious. All of the Judeo-Christian religions have sanctions against suicide and consider it a sin. So it becomes important for followers to come to terms personally with the notion of whether quitting treatment is suicide. It is less important for those of us who are not religious, as no sin is attached with taking one's life. You may feel confident in your understanding of the definition of suicide vs. withholding care, but others who participated in the thread may not be so convinced. Personally, it doesn't matter to me.
I think approaching the end of one's life with equanimity might be easier if it is not also a time to worry whether that life has been good enough to garner a pleasant afterlife (or whether I have fallen short and will live in eternal damnation!!!). I can be reasonably assured that I have left this world a better place than it would have been if I had not been born. I really don't ask any more than that.
:cuddle;
Aleta
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As far as religion and withholding of care at end of life, you are frankly quite wrong that religion is against natural processes and withholding care if it is the choice of the person involved. Medically, legally and ethically withholding of care is NOT suicide. As a devout Christian I on many occasions withdrew care at patients and families requests. Perhaps the greatest ethical studies on this subject come not from atheists, but instead from the Roman Catholic Church. Sorry, you are simply wrong on your allegation once again.
Ah, it seems I have not been clear. I did not make any allegations that withholding treatment is or is not suicide. I also did not say anything to the effect that religion considers withholding treatment wrong.
What I was trying to convey is that people are divided on this topic (as can be seen in the aforementioned thread), but it is fraught with anxiety for those who are more religious. All of the Judeo-Christian religions have sanctions against suicide and consider it a sin. So it becomes important for followers to come to terms personally with the notion of whether quitting treatment is suicide. It is less important for those of us who are not religious, as no sin is attached with taking one's life. You may feel confident in your understanding of the definition of suicide vs. withholding care, but others who participated in the thread may not be so convinced. Personally, it doesn't matter to me.
I think approaching the end of one's life with equanimity might be easier if it is not also a time to worry whether that life has been good enough to garner a pleasant afterlife (or whether I have fallen short and will live in eternal damnation!!!). I can be reasonably assured that I have left this world a better place than it would have been if I had not been born. I really don't ask any more than that.
:cuddle;
Aleta
I must frankly state that I can't recall ever encountering religion as an issue in withdrawal of care when that was the obvious best option in a futile situation. Since I have done this as a physician many times over in 20 years of practice and schooling, I must question the accuracy of your perception. Do you have any statistics on that allegation or is that your bias.
If people are confused about the issue is quite different than religion creating the impression of suicide in those situations. That is NOT my understanding as a physician nor as a born again Christian. Once again, what is your source for that contention?
Taking anyone's life is a sin, Thou Shalt not kill applies to your own life. It is God the gives life and takes it at our time appointed. Suicide is not the unpardonable sin and does not in itself engender eternal damnation. When it comes down to it, the only sin God cannot forgive is rejecting His Son. David was a murderer as was Moses. Paul the apostle was not just a murderer but he was guilty of slaughter and that of Christians prior to his conversion. Yet, God not only forgave them, but used them in a mighty way. So, not sure where you are getting your information on Christianity, but it is likely not the same source I obtained mine.
Secondly, I don't have to work at all for my salvation, it is a gift given freely to me by Jesus. I can never be "good enough" to gain admission to Heaven without His shed blood on the cross. With Resurrection Sunday tomorrow, this is a very apt conversation. The gospel is quite clear on that message. It is His work that He accomplished that is all that matters. If we could "earn" Heaven on our own, why then did God send His Son to the cross? No, there is only one way, one truth and one life through Jesus our Lord. That is what the Bible teaches. Not sure where your conjecture comes from.
As far as falling short, that is the human condition.
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Taking anyone's life is a sin, Thou Shalt not kill applies to your own life. It is God the gives life and takes it at our time appointed.
Exactly. This quite clearly explains why people are concerned over the question of whether quitting dialysis is suicide. You have come to a confident conclusion that it isn't. Others have not, thus their anxiety over the issue.
:laugh: Why are you trying to make it into an issue of whether I understand Christian medical ethics? Or whether I understand your version of Christianity? I am not claiming to understand or advocate for or against either. I am making a statement about why folks are concerned about the definition of suicide.
You asked me a question about how I face the end of life. I answered it. I'm not sure what this refers to: Not sure where your conjecture comes from.
What conjecture?
Talker, I apologize for this tangent to your original post.
I will continue to be a happy atheist who accepts the prayers of others as a natural expression of human caring. I feel concern for those who worry about whether they should cease dialysis if the going gets too rough, regardless of their religious leanings. Life is tough and it shouldn't be made tougher for those facing difficult decisions. :cuddle;
Aleta
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http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=31012.msg479912#msg479912
Were, that one could speak from the heart, without causing a disrupting ruckus and endless controversy.
talker
http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=31012.msg479912#msg479912
Talker, I apologize for this tangent to your original post.
I feel concern for those who worry about whether they should cease dialysis if the going gets too rough, regardless of their religious leanings. Life is tough and it shouldn't be made tougher for those facing difficult decisions.
Aleta
While appreciated, no apologies, as we are all expressing or hiding the emotions that caused the 'title' I initially used for this topic.
My opening post, left out what actually would have been a small booklet in the 'telling' of my feelings regards responding to some postings.
Yes, there are streams of insights into ones state of emotions, as they do their comment posting.
Have observed the decline of health and mobility of many passing in and out of the dialysis center.
There are those very sad moments, of my prayers, for those I see that are literally on their death bed.
Yes, then word filters in, that 'so and so' passed.
Thoughts that one is committing suicide by stopping dialysis is wrong.
That one is lucid and able to speak and communicate with loved ones, while saying their goodbyes, is beautiful to behold. This as opposed to, to weak to speak, or in a coma, as loved ones, sit, stand, whisper, and shed tears, while the dying person is unable to participate in any fashion.
Sorry, at times words do interfere with effective communication.
talker
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Thought id throw this out there since it seems relevant...
My husband is Atheist, I am Agnostic (basically, i have my own beliefs, that are basically christian beliefs, but i dont go to a church regularly, and i dont really believe everything about christianity, so i dont call myelf a christian...) and my son is interested in Christianity, so my husband and I are supporting his decision. We would do that no matter what religion he chooses. I have found him a church, we will be attending.
I dont really understand why this has always been an issue. why cant people just be who they are and believe what they wish to believe and leave it alone?! For the most part, all religion is basically the same. Same story, but the names and dates have changed.
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Thank you Hemodoc, willowtreewren ...
...I beg to differ again: when I mentioned doctors/people who wish to implement euthanasia right now, I did not only refer to the Nazis ...
What I meant is that - unfortunately - many governments and people have “developed” and “very much refined” the original Nazi-idea of euthanasia
to an almost “very fine art” these days ...
...Please don’t misunderstand what I am trying to say... but these days many different “modernized” ways of euthanasia have been “implemented” in many countries -
without any democratic discussion making citizens aware of such goings on...
...that is what I have tried to convey in my original post...
...For example, here in the UK many old age pensioners and/or disabled patients/ mentally handicapped children/people do often not receive
the medical care they should receive, because of the (unspoken) argument by medics (and re-enforced by the media),
that “those financially poor pensioners/disabled/mentally handicapped patients
have no quality of life anyway ... another argument to implement such a discrimination is that there is supposed not enough money in the NHS (health care system)
to treat everyone anymore...
...I have also noticed the indirect implementation of euthanasia, called here in the UK the “Liverpool pathway”, enabling doctors to “gently assist”
a “sick patient with no quality of life” (as it is termed) to end their life... quickly...
...How can doctors know whether or not someone’s life should or should not end?
...How can they know if a patient is not in the process to fight in order to have a chance and continue with their life?
...I feel very passionate about this, because I have been in this situation twice in my life and I made a full recovery every time.
The first time, after I had suffered two cerebral haemorrhages and I needed two life-saving different operations (each of them lasting for many hours)
on two different sites and whilst being half gone I still could hear medics discussing that I had not much of a chance to “pull through”;
the second time was after I suffered a stroke at the age of only 38 years old (due to negligence of a doctor), when I was in such a bad state,
that I was not even offered rehabilitation at the hospital... making my eventual rehabilitation later so much harder for me,
because so much valuable time had been wasted until I could finally start with my rehabilitation (in another EC country because I was not offered any rehabilitation in the UK)...
At the time of the stroke, I could not speak anymore, because I was not only “locked up” inside but also right-sided paralyzed, I could not walk,
needed a wheelchair and was not able to look after myself or eat without any help... I was in a terrible state at the time...
This apparently arrogant and flippant approach by some doctors towards fragile patients when they at their most vulnerable has alarmed and concerned me ever since...
...Another (European) trend has been observed, when some young motorcyclists had “only” a fractured leg or a fractured arm after an accident
and then they suddenly die in hospital and they happen to have carried a donor card ...
...Whilst visiting friends on the Continent, I watched a TV report about the above mentioned transplant/donor card problem...
... this TV report was quite shocking, because it conveyed to the onlooker the feeling, that these young men did “not make it” because of their donor card
and because of a desperation for more donations...
...Another problem is money and the transplant waiting list because not too long ago the family of a young man involved in a severe motorbike accident
decided to donate his organs and immediately a very rich man from a country in the Near East was flown into the UK to receive one of these donated kidneys...
... the patients on the kidney waiting list in the UK were not considered at this point, because, it seems, money speaks louder
and the money of this man had overruled the waiting list...
... This incident was reported Nationwide within the UK, not only in newspapers but also in Radio discussions and it certainly made many people very suspicious
and made them to re-think... It put them off the thought of signing a donor card just in case they had an accident... people do not wish to be misused as donors...
When I mentioned my concerns about the implementation of euthanasia in my former post, I was thinking on those lines...
I agree with willowtreewren in the case of the suicide rate in countries where a “no hope” political/economic climate makes people to commit suicide...
... it is very doubtful that their suicide is connected to being an atheist - or not - ...
... One convincing example is Chile: after the assassination of Salvador Allende in September 1973, many people tried to flee the country,
... and the suicide rate in Chile went up dramatically under the dictatorship of Pinochet ...
... these suicides were not connected to their religious beliefs or non-beliefs, but they were mainly connected to the complete hopelessness during Pinochet’s dictatorship ...
...Before the fall of the Berlin Wall East Germany and Russia had a very high suicide rate... the high suicide rate in both countries was not officially confirmed ...
... because it pointed the finger at the unfriendliness of their political/economical systems, making life very hopeless and extremely depressing for many citizens...
... and the fact that there was no way out... One Hungarian acquaintance of mine crawled slowly, inch by inch, through the border and finally made it to the West...
... not many people dared such a life-dangerous risky approach...
... another example is the high suicide rate amongst young men in the UK right now, which is very considerable,
because so much pressure is put on young men to succeed ...
In fact, our media almost implements, that a young man’s life is not worth anything if he is not a great achiever...
... problem is that in order to achieve one not only needs strong, ruthless elbows (to push everyone else out of the way),
but also no conscience and a certain brutality ... and not every person is able to identify with such political/economical/sociological demands...
I agree with Aleta about the so-called "studies" by Zuckerman, supposedly showing that suicide is higher among atheists.
Also, as Aleta informs us, the numbers provided by the WHO list show suicides as highest among "atheistic" states
and countries like Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and, to a lesser extent, Finland, Hungary and the Russian Federation, with China having the highest suicide rates...
Many of the former (socialist/communist) Eastern countries left many people ended up very confused about religion,
because according to the political dogma at the time, religion is “opium for the people” and should not exist...
...many people wished to be openly religious without any fears... but religion in former socialist/communist countries was frowned upon.
... After the fall of the Berlin Wall many eastern countries “resurrected” their (whatever) religions openly...
... when the USSR was still the USSR, many orthodox Christians were sent into exile to Siberia because of their beliefs
... and now they are “permitted” to return back to Russia ...
... Perhaps all the above mentioned problems are much deeper and can’t be easily explained away because we don’t really know the answers...
.... In case I have “strayed” from the original theme of the post I do apologize...
Kristina.
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Thank you kristina
That made for an interesting read. :thumbup;
As I would say it 'You've experienced a lot of water under the bridge' painting your life tapestry. :pray;
In case I have “strayed” from the original theme of the post I do apologize...
Kristina
On my part 'stray' in a like fashion all you want. To me, it is all part of the emotions that generally never see the light of day. :flower;
talker
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Thought id throw this out there since it seems relevant...
My husband is Atheist, I am Agnostic (basically, i have my own beliefs, that are basically christian beliefs, but i dont go to a church regularly, and i dont really believe everything about christianity, so i dont call myelf a christian...) and my son is interested in Christianity, so my husband and I are supporting his decision. We would do that no matter what religion he chooses. I have found him a church, we will be attending.
I dont really understand why this has always been an issue. why cant people just be who they are and believe what they wish to believe and leave it alone?! For the most part, all religion is basically the same. Same story, but the names and dates have changed.
Well, since it is Resurrection Sunday, I would have to say that the empty tomb is what makes Christianity different from all other religions. Allah has no son, so that is not the same God as the God of Israel which both Christians and Jews worship. The other religions do have an interesting common origin which Alexander Hislop detailed in his book, The Two Babylons. But the risen Saviour is what makes Christianity different from all other religions. He rose from the dead and that is celebrated worldwide on this very day today.
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Dear Kristina, the issue of fast tracking patients for death in Britain is one topic not covered at all that I can see in the US press especially with Obamacare and it's horrific start. Few realize that the doctor can choose this path for any patient they deem appropriate despite objections from the patient and from the families. It sounds as if you survived such a plight yourself. Yes, when you have doctors deciding who lives or dies, then we are all in trouble. That is why informed consent is such an important concept universally for all patients that is becoming a thing of the past in many places, especially the dialysis unit.
As far as studies on atheism and suicide, it is actually an area with quite a few studies and not just the 2004 study that Aleta is referring to. Countries with "organic atheism," which is un-coerced but a dictator does correlate with suicide rates. The 10 countries with the highest suicide rates also have the highest rates of organic atheism. So, yes, this issue has been studied by quite few folks including the WHO with a large study in 2003 for instance looking at the suicide rates throughout the entire world.
In addition, the atheist community gets up in arms about the Zuckerman study, however, Zuckerman himself concludes that religiosity is not good for a nation since most of those nations are the poorest with high rates of infant mortality while the organic atheist countries like Denmark, Sweden etc. have the highest freedoms and income. Interestingly, in his discussion, he does not talk of the US which is a statistical outlier of his claims on religiosity since the US has a very high rate of religious belief and for quite some time WAS the highest standard of living and freedom of any nation, but sadly not any longer. The Zuckerman article is actually quite pro-atheism in totality but it does document the higher rates of suicide in the atheist community. So, I am not sure if folks are actually reading his articles or just the propaganda about his article.
The US has one of the lowest rates of organic atheism and Britain is in the middle of the pack with about 40% organic atheism. I would hope that patients would appreciate doctors who have a sense of the preciousness of life and a sense of hope in their own philosophical outlook. I do beg to differ on the pronouncement that the nephrologist I spoke of that I knew personally since 1996 was not greatly influenced by his own atheistic outlook. I have had dozens of conversations with him on this issue and he was quite forthright in his opinions.
It is not a wonder that the Denmark and other secular nations in Europe also have the highest levels of euthanasia in the world. It seems that that is a statistical correlation as well. Britain with their NHS and their fast track death program is quite a frightening affair and does not bode well for future developments. If the government through the NHS is making decisions on who lives or dies, what is the next step?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6127514/Sentenced-to-death-on-the-NHS.html
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As far as studies on atheism and suicide, it is actually an area with quite a few studies and not just the 2004 study that Aleta is referring to. Countries with "organic atheism," which is un-coerced but a dictator does correlate with suicide rates. The 10 countries with the highest suicide rates also have the highest rates of organic atheism. So, yes, this issue has been studied by quite few folks including the WHO with a large study in 2003 for instance looking at the suicide rates throughout the entire world.
Could you provide citations? In doing searches, I find the 2004 Zuckerman study and many citations to it.
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As far as studies on atheism and suicide, it is actually an area with quite a few studies and not just the 2004 study that Aleta is referring to. Countries with "organic atheism," which is un-coerced but a dictator does correlate with suicide rates. The 10 countries with the highest suicide rates also have the highest rates of organic atheism. So, yes, this issue has been studied by quite few folks including the WHO with a large study in 2003 for instance looking at the suicide rates throughout the entire world.
Could you provide citations? In doing searches, I find the 2004 Zuckerman study and many citations to it.
http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/zuckerman_on_atheism.pdf
http://web.b.ebscohost.com/abstract?direct=true&profile=ehost&scope=site&authtype=crawler&jrnl=20785488&AN=82105455&h=v8p%2f2n%2fZ0r56Awhum73kufrS56YxAZRGf3vL0GTnfN5F02des1NanxTcOiq%2bjjQagGDiXKQtnEfTbKwk6th2bA%3d%3d&crl=c
http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/jpm.2006.0197
OMEGA--Journal of Death and Dying
Issue: Volume 11, Number 4 / 1980-81
Pages: 317 - 324
URL: Linking Options
DOI: 10.2190/YP62-4U57-V8CJ-XYNH
The Correlations of Attitudes Toward Suicide with Death Anxiety, Religiosity, and Personal Closeness to Suicide
Julianne D. Minear A1 and Lorelei R. Brush A2
A1 Elmcrest Psychiatric Institute, Portland, Connecticut
A2 Abt Associates Inc., Wesleyan University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
Abstract:
College students from four different institutions were asked to report their attitudes toward suicide, their anxiety about death, the degree of their religiosity, the substance of their religious beliefs, and the seriousness with which they had considered suicide. The more supportive students were about the right of people in general to commit suicide and the more situations they felt would justify their own suicide, the more anxious they felt about death, the less strongly they were committed to a religion, and the more seriously they had thought about committing suicide. A discussion about the ramifications of these results for the college campus is included.
https://iasp.info/pdf/papers/Bertolote.pdf
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Here is an interesting article on end of life choices supported by doctors in the US according to religious affiliation. I would like to find a survey of British doctors to see how widespread atheism is among them. That may in part explain the Liverpool pathway popularity by the British Health care system.
http://ajh.sagepub.com/content/25/2/112.short
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As far as studies on atheism and suicide, it is actually an area with quite a few studies and not just the 2004 study that Aleta is referring to. Countries with "organic atheism," which is un-coerced but a dictator does correlate with suicide rates. The 10 countries with the highest suicide rates also have the highest rates of organic atheism. So, yes, this issue has been studied by quite few folks including the WHO with a large study in 2003 for instance looking at the suicide rates throughout the entire world.
Could you provide citations? In doing searches, I find the 2004 Zuckerman study and many citations to it.
http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/zuckerman_on_atheism.pdf
http://web.b.ebscohost.com/abstract?direct=true&profile=ehost&scope=site&authtype=crawler&jrnl=20785488&AN=82105455&h=v8p%2f2n%2fZ0r56Awhum73kufrS56YxAZRGf3vL0GTnfN5F02des1NanxTcOiq%2bjjQagGDiXKQtnEfTbKwk6th2bA%3d%3d&crl=c
http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/jpm.2006.0197
OMEGA--Journal of Death and Dying
Issue: Volume 11, Number 4 / 1980-81
Pages: 317 - 324
URL: Linking Options
DOI: 10.2190/YP62-4U57-V8CJ-XYNH
The Correlations of Attitudes Toward Suicide with Death Anxiety, Religiosity, and Personal Closeness to Suicide
Julianne D. Minear A1 and Lorelei R. Brush A2
A1 Elmcrest Psychiatric Institute, Portland, Connecticut
A2 Abt Associates Inc., Wesleyan University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
Abstract:
College students from four different institutions were asked to report their attitudes toward suicide, their anxiety about death, the degree of their religiosity, the substance of their religious beliefs, and the seriousness with which they had considered suicide. The more supportive students were about the right of people in general to commit suicide and the more situations they felt would justify their own suicide, the more anxious they felt about death, the less strongly they were committed to a religion, and the more seriously they had thought about committing suicide. A discussion about the ramifications of these results for the college campus is included.
https://iasp.info/pdf/papers/Bertolote.pdf
Thank you.
I imagine those college-aged students may not have discovered that there is a support community among non-theists. The support community among the religious is well-known and easy to find. That feeling of being the only atheist is quite prevalent among younger ages and could certainly contribute to feelings of isolation and desperation. In reality, many atheists keep their beliefs to themselves to avoid public censure. A couple of years ago I attended the Reason Rally in DC. There were signs available that said, "This is what an atheist looks like." I joked that the sign would be a good retirement plan. All I would need to do it carry it in the student drop-off line one morning and the enrollment in my school would plummet. There is serious prejudice against atheists.
There are so many confounding issues surrounding the question of if and why there may be higher suicide rates among atheists, that I imagine it would be very hard to tease out the actual causes. I'm still not convinced that 1) there IS a higher rate, and 2) atheism is the cause.
Well, since it is Resurrection Sunday, I would have to say that the empty tomb is what makes Christianity different from all other religions. Allah has no son, so that is not the same God as the God of Israel which both Christians and Jews worship. The other religions do have an interesting common origin which Alexander Hislop detailed in his book, The Two Babylons. But the risen Saviour is what makes Christianity different from all other religions. He rose from the dead and that is celebrated worldwide on this very day today.
Mithra, who predated Christ was also said to have died and arisen three days later from the tomb. In fact, the Christ story has remarkable parallels to Mithra. Mithra came first, though. Here are some of the myths about Mithra:
Was born of a virgin on December 25th, in a cave, attended by shepherds
Was considered a great traveling teacher and master
Had 12 companions or disciples
Promised his followers immortality
Performed miracles
Sacrificed himself for world peace
Was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again
Was celebrated each year at the time of His resurrection
Was called “the Good Shepherd”
Was identified with both the Lamb and the Lion
Was considered to be the “Way, the Truth and the Light,” and the “Logos,” “Redeemer,” “Savior” and “Messiah.”
Celebrated Sunday as His sacred day (also known as the “Lord’s Day,”)
Celebrated a Eucharist or “Lord’s Supper”
Much of the written information about Mithra was systematically destroyed in the years about 100 - 400 CE, during the rise of Christianity.
Aleta
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Dear Aleta,
First, there is a definite statistical correlation between atheism and suicide. Correlations do not clarify the relationships of causation, only that there is an association. I would venture that you cannot reasonably deny this associations seen over and over again over decades of studies. But that is your right to do so if you choose.
Secondly, thank for for clarifying that Jesus is just a Myth based on a pagan god. That comes up just about ever year at this time. Lot's of good websites dispelling the myth that Jesus is simply a Christian Mithra. Here is one site that does a pretty good job of deflating that propaganda seen quite often.
http://pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/is-jesus-simply-a-retelling-of-the-mithras-mythology/
If you really want a serious study about Jesus and Bible prophecies hundreds and thousands of years before He died on the cross, I would be more than happy to do so. I did just that with my wife earlier today. There was a record written about Jesus in incredible detail before He ever walked the earth. And since when does the Bible state that Jesus was born on December 25th. There are several pagan stories of deities and celebrations on that date. If you study the story of Christmas, those origins of the Christmas celebration become quite evident as to where that comes from, but it is not from the Bible.
In any case, off to get my little grandchild who is the joy of my life. Yes, a legacy as well.
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I still have no idea who this member is. When did this happen?
It was Henry P Snicklesnorter. He was so appalled at the way Rerun derided Obsidian after one of Obsidian's posts and the way Rerun behaved afterwards.
Henry P was one of the most helpful, upbeat and informative posters this site had. It was sad that he deleted all his posts, but he did not feel he wanted to continue here.
I no longer feel that it a safe place to post either, and I have changed my avatar to the one that the moderators changed Henry P's avatar to.
Just to clarify, we don't remove posts and we do not change people's avatars or their profiles. The only exception is changing their status when they spam the forum, then they are banned.
Henry P Snicklesnorter removed all of his posts without contacting an admin for help or support. When I wrote to him to inquire I got this explanation in return. He felt it was okay to punish us all, and I never got a chance to try and mediate. It's very unfortunate. In 8 years since this forum was created, we never had such an incident.
okarol/admin
Sent to: okarol on: October 23, 2013, 11:09:09 PM »
Quote from: okarol on October 23, 2013, 10:58:51 AM
Hi Henry P Snicklesnorter,
Is there a reason you're deleting so many of your posts?
We allow editing so people can correct/change their posts but deleting them creates gaps and confusion in threads.
Please let me know.
Thank you,
Karol
Dear Karol,
I removed my posts as a tangible means of expressing my disgust with Rerun's treatment of Obsidianom, particularly as she is a moderator. I determined that this was not a place to which I would want to be seen as a contributor.
I wish you and your family well.
Henry P
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First, there is a definite statistical correlation between atheism and suicide. Correlations do not clarify the relationships of causation, only that there is an association. I would venture that you cannot reasonably deny this associations seen over and over again over decades of studies. But that is your right to do so if you choose.
As the WHO states clearly: non atheist societies have numerous reasons, and ways to not publish, or hide figures of suicides.
That's not a choice, merely a fact.
Cas
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Henry took his ball and left. Ob erased all his posts in that thread too. We have a new rule. You can modify your posts but you cannot erase them or you will be banned.
I love Hemodoc. It just kills me to read someone say "Oh, I just believe in the higher power of the sun or the canoe gods" How can someone look at a sunset and not see
the creation of God. Or the birth of a baby and not see a miracle. If we came from Apes why are there still Apes? I love to read Hemodoc's words. He is spot on.
We don't change people's Avatars. Ol' Henry must have done that before he burned down his building. I got some pretty nasty email from him. I'm glad my address is not on here.
I have questions??
Do atheists believe taking someone else's life is a sin? Or they just don't believe in sin?
Do Vegetarians eat animal crackers?
Goth: When you do go to church you will understand why people cannot sit and watch their friends and people they care about walk blindly towards a cliff and not stop them and tell them the truth... there is a cliff coming, watch your step. It is the same once you learn the truth about the Love of Jesus. I'm not a good Christian, but I'm forgiven, and I keep trying.
If people believe they turn to 'worm food' when they die. They have a surprise coming and they will wish they were worm food.
How can people not experienceing the disease (I did not say D) say what they would do about quiting? Really? That would be like me saying I would not take any pain medication during childbirth. I've never had a baby so .....
Spoiler alert: There is no global warming!! :bandance;
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Thank you talker, you are possibly right, I did experience “lots of water under the bridge” (and some NHS-water was extremely murky...)
...my good luck was, that I did experience this very early... and that enabled me to watch & observe in order to protect myself...
Thank you Hemodoc for your thoughts and the Telegraph article (one of our better newspapers...)
I thought people’s comments underneath the article were also very interesting and revealing...
Because of “my” inherited diseases (rare variations of SLE/MCTD with chronic proliferative glomerulonephritis plus hypertension)
I experienced this alarming development in the NHS very early,
in fact I already watched out and made sure I had a surviving chance, when most people did not realize yet this NHS-development
(one of modern society’s “refined” development of a "historic idea" from 1933-1945...?)
...When I started to warn people about it, many tried to make fun of what I was saying...
...they thought my experiences were almost unthinkable... and they were sure, it could never happen to them...
P.S. My complaints to all NHS authorities, all other authorities i.e. MP of my district, House of Commons, House of Lords
and every Prime Minister since 1981, still await an explanation & an answer...
... It has astounded and startled me, that I came across many NHS doctors, who seem to have “learnt” their medical books “by heart”
...without using logical skills to combine and absorb what they had "learnt by heart"...
...They seemed to possess a photographic memory, but not the ability to absorb, what their photographic memory supplied them with...
... whilst I consulted - over the years - with so many NHS doctors, I often felt I was consulting with an automatic machine repeating a certain text ...
...and these doctors almost appeared to me like a product of a fast track production line ...
...they did not seem to realize or comprehend, that their (well paid) profession involves the life of unwell human beings who need urgent medical assistance...
I mention this because this problem has been my biggest hurdle with NHS doctors: their inability to diagnose me in time to avoid many of my medical catastrophies...
... and to diagnose my diseases much earlier...
... Atheism: I would like to add that in the UK many empty churches almost appear like monuments to foregone times...
... as an explanation it has been rumoured that Christianity is very forgiving and that brings too many “wrong” people into Christian “jobs”,
... and other people who originate from different religions, who have converted to Christianity after they were shunned upon
by their original religious community, i.e. paedophiles, child abusers and all sorts of perverts etc ...
... according to rumours they had converted to Christianity and became trusted priests/ vicars in the community in order to achieve their aim
which is easy access to vulnerable little children... if it is true, it would be a very sad development...
... Suicide: oppressive dictatorships have not been keen to published their suicide rates because that would show up their shortcomings ...
...the original religion of oppressive dictators and/or oppressive leaders and/or their close associates is an added interesting study ...
... to get an idea, “where they are coming from”...
... Capitalist societies do not wish to publish their suicide rates either because it would show up their shortcomings...
i.e. the isolation of the individual as a “non-achiever etc. ... little or no care for the vulnerable, the elderly and many unwell patients etc.
... it is generally very difficult to find out suicide rates, because so many researcher are often “led along their own ideas and thoughts”
...and then they “fit in” their research findings with their personal associations (and/or the associations/research-result-desires of their employer...).
Rerun, to answer your question about vegetarians:
I only eat 3 eggs per week (protein) and I drink a little milk and – instead of sugar -
I use in my tea some honey which was produced by bees in the Beech Forest of New Zealand...
.. . and I have been reading that many people get the disease (I did also not say D) when
they become older, because the function is apparently affected by age...
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First, there is a definite statistical correlation between atheism and suicide. Correlations do not clarify the relationships of causation, only that there is an association. I would venture that you cannot reasonably deny this associations seen over and over again over decades of studies. But that is your right to do so if you choose.
As the WHO states clearly: non atheist societies have numerous reasons, and ways to not publish, or hide figures of suicides.
That's not a choice, merely a fact.
Cas
Very true especially with the Islamic nations I would venture. I would likewise state getting information on transplant from the Iranian system that allows payment for kidneys should also be done only with great skepticism on how accurate those figures truly are.
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Dear Rerun, I would never want to speak for all Atheists, but I, as a human being, believe that it's wrong to take someones life, or to hurt another human being in any form, or shape or whatever.
I am on this planet, because I am. I try to live my life as good, and full as I can. I try to help people if I can. I don't need anything to look forward to when I die.
When my heart stops beating, I'm dead
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Thank you Rerun for the kind words. As a physician with a degree in biology, minors in math and chemistry, it came as the greatest surprise that the Bible is the true literal word of God. The first task I set to after being saved in November of 1994 was to put to rest the issue of evolution and creation. I read about 8 books over a two month period of time with only one a Christian apologetics book on the issue. After reading one book especially by Stephen J. Gould lambasting all of the other theories of evolution and promoting his version of evolution called Punctuated Equilibrium, I applied his criticism of other theories of evolution to his own work and drew my conclusion that all the theories of evolution are based on conjecture and unproven assumptions.
Looking at my medical field with an eye for the Creator made all of my studies much more interesting seeing the wonder and awe of all the God has made. So many times in medical conferences, I heard the term, isn't Mother Nature marvelous when discussing truly remarkable medical discoveries. One such incident was a conference in Sand Diego in the about 1995 where the speaker was describing the "lock and key" nature of the HIV virus with our T-cells, the target of HIV in our immune system. The AIDS virus truly must act like a key fitting into a very specific lock with such precision, the entire audience appeared to agree, yes, isn't Mother Nature marvelous. Well, Rerun, it wasn't Mother Nature, it was instead Father God. Sadly, most people shall never make that connection, but the evidence is there for all to see.
Thank you again for the kind words.
God bless,
Peter
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Dear Rerun, I would never want to speak for all Atheists, but I, as a human being, believe that it's wrong to take someones life, or to hurt another human being in any form, or shape or whatever.
I am on this planet, because I am. I try to live my life as good, and full as I can. I try to help people if I can. I don't need anything to look forward to when I die.
When my heart stops beating, I'm dead
Dear Cassandra, certainly you are correct that when the heart stops beating, you are dead. I have seen that process quite a few times. However, the issue comes right back to Aleta's original comment about the soul and what is a soul.
I firmly believe that there is not only a body, but a soul and a spirit within us. That is what makes us human. I also believe that we are made in the image of God and that our soul is eternal. There is no doubt that we shall be ashes to ashes and dust to dust. The Lord raised Adam from the dust and the Psalmist reminds us that while we are in our frailties, God remembers that we were made of dust and forgives us those things He would have against us.
I remember my grandmother in her mid 80's stating, I feel the same inside, but I just don't move as fast as before. Her body was decaying but her soul within her remained the same. Her statement always puzzled me before I became a born again Christian. I know understand why we feel the same no matter our age and state of health. That is because we do have a soul and our soul shall live somewhere forever. Where is our choice. I firmly believe these things.
I am not challenging your personal beliefs, I simply believe that there is evidence for a soul and a spirit within us that makes us human. The Bible states that there is evidence of His eternal Godhead by the things God created. That is the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. That line in Scripture also puzzled me greatly until I likewise understood that we can readily see and experience our body, our soul remains constant throughout our lives, but I could not understand what evidence there is of a spirit within us. Well, I didn't understand until I realized that when you are saved, God sends His spirit to live within us and I did indeed notice that distinctly on the day I was saved. Yes, that is my experience and I have no doubt that there is a body, a soul and a spirit the makes me who I am.
Once again, not attacking your personal view, but just sharing my own perspective on how I found my own soul and spirit. They are both as real as our body before us.
Take care,
Peter
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Thank you for your explanation of your own beliefs. I'm just glad we are living in parts of the planet where we can express our beliefs even when disagreeing.
Love, Cas
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Dear Rerun, I would never want to speak for all Atheists, but I, as a human being, believe that it's wrong to take someones life, or to hurt another human being in any form, or shape or whatever.
I am on this planet, because I am. I try to live my life as good, and full as I can. I try to help people if I can. I don't need anything to look forward to when I die.
When my heart stops beating, I'm dead
I couldn't agree more. Nicely stated! :2thumbsup;
This life is sweet and dear because it is the only life we have. :cuddle;
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Life is precious because God gave it to us. Eternal ilife is precious because Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Both are a gift of God available to all who ask of Him.
For those that don't know Christ, yes, I agree this is your only life. Of that much I agree.
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As far as studies on atheism and suicide, it is actually an area with quite a few studies and not just the 2004 study that Aleta is referring to. Countries with "organic atheism," which is un-coerced but a dictator does correlate with suicide rates. The 10 countries with the highest suicide rates also have the highest rates of organic atheism. So, yes, this issue has been studied by quite few folks including the WHO with a large study in 2003 for instance looking at the suicide rates throughout the entire world.
Could you provide citations? In doing searches, I find the 2004 Zuckerman study and many citations to it.
http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/zuckerman_on_atheism.pdf
http://web.b.ebscohost.com/abstract?direct=true&profile=ehost&scope=site&authtype=crawler&jrnl=20785488&AN=82105455&h=v8p%2f2n%2fZ0r56Awhum73kufrS56YxAZRGf3vL0GTnfN5F02des1NanxTcOiq%2bjjQagGDiXKQtnEfTbKwk6th2bA%3d%3d&crl=c
http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/jpm.2006.0197
OMEGA--Journal of Death and Dying
Issue: Volume 11, Number 4 / 1980-81
Pages: 317 - 324
URL: Linking Options
DOI: 10.2190/YP62-4U57-V8CJ-XYNH
The Correlations of Attitudes Toward Suicide with Death Anxiety, Religiosity, and Personal Closeness to Suicide
Julianne D. Minear A1 and Lorelei R. Brush A2
A1 Elmcrest Psychiatric Institute, Portland, Connecticut
A2 Abt Associates Inc., Wesleyan University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
Abstract:
College students from four different institutions were asked to report their attitudes toward suicide, their anxiety about death, the degree of their religiosity, the substance of their religious beliefs, and the seriousness with which they had considered suicide. The more supportive students were about the right of people in general to commit suicide and the more situations they felt would justify their own suicide, the more anxious they felt about death, the less strongly they were committed to a religion, and the more seriously they had thought about committing suicide. A discussion about the ramifications of these results for the college campus is included.
https://iasp.info/pdf/papers/Bertolote.pdf
Thank you.
I imagine those college-aged students may not have discovered that there is a support community among non-theists. The support community among the religious is well-known and easy to find. That feeling of being the only atheist is quite prevalent among younger ages and could certainly contribute to feelings of isolation and desperation. In reality, many atheists keep their beliefs to themselves to avoid public censure. A couple of years ago I attended the Reason Rally in DC. There were signs available that said, "This is what an atheist looks like." I joked that the sign would be a good retirement plan. All I would need to do it carry it in the student drop-off line one morning and the enrollment in my school would plummet. There is serious prejudice against atheists.
There are so many confounding issues surrounding the question of if and why there may be higher suicide rates among atheists, that I imagine it would be very hard to tease out the actual causes. I'm still not convinced that 1) there IS a higher rate, and 2) atheism is the cause.
Well, since it is Resurrection Sunday, I would have to say that the empty tomb is what makes Christianity different from all other religions. Allah has no son, so that is not the same God as the God of Israel which both Christians and Jews worship. The other religions do have an interesting common origin which Alexander Hislop detailed in his book, The Two Babylons. But the risen Saviour is what makes Christianity different from all other religions. He rose from the dead and that is celebrated worldwide on this very day today.
Mithra, who predated Christ was also said to have died and arisen three days later from the tomb. In fact, the Christ story has remarkable parallels to Mithra. Mithra came first, though. Here are some of the myths about Mithra:
Was born of a virgin on December 25th, in a cave, attended by shepherds
Was considered a great traveling teacher and master
Had 12 companions or disciples
Promised his followers immortality
Performed miracles
Sacrificed himself for world peace
Was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again
Was celebrated each year at the time of His resurrection
Was called “the Good Shepherd”
Was identified with both the Lamb and the Lion
Was considered to be the “Way, the Truth and the Light,” and the “Logos,” “Redeemer,” “Savior” and “Messiah.”
Celebrated Sunday as His sacred day (also known as the “Lord’s Day,”)
Celebrated a Eucharist or “Lord’s Supper”
Much of the written information about Mithra was systematically destroyed in the years about 100 - 400 CE, during the rise of Christianity.
Aleta
Thank you Aleta, thats exactly what i was talking about <3
and many others do have SOME similarity,
also, yes It doesnt say in the bible that christ was born on the 25th, but its celebrated than, and 'stolen' (for lack of a better word) from Pagans.
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Life is precious because God gave it to us. Eternal ilife is precious because Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Both are a gift of God available to all who ask of Him.
For those that don't know Christ, yes, I agree this is your only life. Of that much I agree.
I am glad that is what you chose to believe, not everyone does, and there is nothing wrong with differing opinions.
i think faith of any kind is a beautiful thing, but its not for everyone.
kudos to you for believing in something strongly. i say, if you are going to believe in something stand to it. and that you do, sir. but at the same time, i think what gets to people is that people tend to shove it down everyones throat... thats not good.
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Yes, December 25th was taken from the pagans. I will pass on the history of this, but it is easily found if anyone is interested.
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Life is precious because God gave it to us. Eternal ilife is precious because Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Both are a gift of God available to all who ask of Him.
For those that don't know Christ, yes, I agree this is your only life. Of that much I agree.
I am glad that is what you chose to believe, not everyone does, and there is nothing wrong with differing opinions.
i think faith of any kind is a beautiful thing, but its not for everyone.
kudos to you for believing in something strongly. i say, if you are going to believe in something stand to it. and that you do, sir. but at the same time, i think what gets to people is that people tend to shove it down everyones throat... thats not good.
No problem Goth. If folks are not interested, we just walk away. However, if folks are spreading untruths about the Bible, then that is a different story.
It would be my hope that all come to know The Lord, but if they don't, that is up to them. If it is a wonderful thing to find The Lord however, I do wish all would.
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To where/to whom do you all turn when you feel despair? Where do you all find comfort?
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To where/to whom do you all turn when you feel despair? Where do you all find comfort?
Who you gonna call, Ghosbusters of course. Sorry.
Despair? Fortunately, that is not something I have really had to deal with since it implies hopelessness. I don't feel hopeless although there are many things that at times are quite troublesome.
Is that because of my faith in The Lord or that to date, I have not had such a situation? Perhaps both in many ways. Despair is quite a strong word, not sure if that was what you wanted Moosemom, but I don't ever feel hopeless or without some option whether good or not so good. To be in a situation where there are no options as I am sure many have faced in my mind fits that description of despair, so long answer to say I can't really answer that question.
A bit of rain today, a bit cold with the low tonight of 34 I heard. My wife and I had a good walk today around the neighborhood and we were surprised for the marginal weather how many people were out and about today and it isn't even a weekend day.
I hope all is well and that you have no despair a this time as well.
God bless,
Peter
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As to being hopeless and helpless at the end of life, why no. I am made of atoms that were forged in the center of stars and those very atoms will once again find themselves shining brightly in such firey life. My consciousness will be gone, but I have worked hard in this life to leave the world a better place for those who come after me. I leave an important legacy. At death I can lay down that mantle for a new generation. I don't see a need to cling to a hope of eternal life. This is a fundamental difference between us. I am content to be made of stardust and return to the same.
Yes, a billion times yes! Gorgeously stated, too.
I am an inconceivably small piece of this vast universe, and if all I ever do is make a deep impression on the lives of two little boys who will one day be two compassionate, intelligent, *happy* men, well, that is fine with me. Christopher Hitchens once pondered how awful it would be if he were to live forever, thus never properly making room for his own son. Each generation needs to be given the tools, the space and the time to reach their full potential.
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To where/to whom do you all turn when you feel despair? Where do you all find comfort?
Why, I turn to flesh and blood friends and family. But, even at my darkest hours with Lyme disease, I never felt despair. In fact, I felt incredibly fortunate that I was able to get treatment. I wonder if I will EVER be fully cured, but at least I am fully functional again.
:yahoo;
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It is funny what I Thank God for. While visiting Seattle I stayed in a cheap motel and then noticed bites on my side. I was freaked out. I read all there was to read about bed bugs and then was ready to toss my suitcase and started cleaning my bedding because I did come home and sleep in my bed. But no more bites just the same ones getting worse. I went to the doctor and it is SHINGLES. Thank God!
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It is funny what I Thank God for. While visiting Seattle I stayed in a cheap motel and then noticed bites on my side. I was freaked out. I read all there was to read about bed bugs and then was ready to toss my suitcase and started cleaning my bedding because I did come home and sleep in my bed. But no more bites just the same ones getting worse. I went to the doctor and it is SHINGLES. Thank God!
Rerun, you must be the only person on planet Earth who thanked God for shingles! :rofl;
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'Funny' story Rerun, I wish you a speedy recovery. And thanx for making me smile. Love, Cas
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Rerun, I share that theme of "thanking" too. When I thank God for the "lesser of many evils" out there, it makes me all the more grateful for the situation I have. When the back of my bicycle was "nudged" by a car and I took a tumble, I kept saying, "Thanks God! At least it wasn't a bus.."
Shingles, though, is one tough call. A thousand times better than bedbugs though!
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Yes, I have never seen someone grateful for shingles, but bed bugs creep me out and they are not just epidemic now, but pandemic across the entire US. Hope you feel better Rerun. God bless, Peter.
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i too am thankful for weird things. im strangly even thankful for my esrd. it made me who i am today, and i kind of dig me now, how i see things and feel about things. Yea, i wish i were healthy of course, but had i not had the crappy experiences i have had, i wouldnt be me now. id probably still be me ten years ago... and that thought scares me a tad LOL
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i too am thankful for weird things. im strangly even thankful for my esrd. it made me who i am today, and i kind of dig me now, how i see things and feel about things. Yea, i wish i were healthy of course, but had i not had the crappy experiences i have had, i wouldnt be me now. id probably still be me ten years ago... and that thought scares me a tad LOL
I agree Goth, if I didin't have my ESRD I would have never been able to retire and spend as much time as I do with my little "Cha Cha" who is sick on our couch right now with a nasty virus. Poor little, thing, I hate seeing her sick, but yes, I understand exactly what you are talking about. I hate the renal failure and dialysis, but I am grateful for many other blessings as a result. My prayer now is to be able to stay with her as long as possible, that is the most important task and goal of mine at present.
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I don't know what I believe.
I believe that I am a scientist. I question everything and want to understand what's inside, what makes it work. I'm a mechanic, a machinist.
Religion is a very touchy subject, there is no way to positively prove one way or the other. There are a great number of religions, who's to say that any of them, or all of them are right, wrong, or indifferent. Certainly not I.
As a scientist and tradesman, i rely on facts, observable action and reaction. Einstein is quote that energy can neither be created, nor destroyed. We can merely alter its shape and form.
The human mind is pretty much been proven to be an electro-chemical reaction, constantly in flux, voltages changing and passing from cell to cell as evidenced by an EEG.
Somewhere in that grey matter there is the smallest 'spark', my being, what can neither be created nor destroyed, but one day it will alter its shape and form. Into what, I don't know, Heat, light, or possibly even a speck of physical matter.
Will I continue to have 'awareness'? I doubt it, merely a very long sleep. Until possibly one day that bit of heat, light, or matter, is once again found to be within a body, perhaps. This could be eons, any physical memory would be long gone.
Who knows, is there a 'God'? It would be nice if that were so, but I cannot prove that. Because I do not know, yet. Someday, I hope to. Until then I try to treat my fellow man as I would prefer to be treated.
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Is there a God? That is a question asked by millions. Some have found God, some have not.
Can you find God in the stars? Some have.
Can you find God in Science/ Some have.
Can you find God with all the evil in the world? Many dismiss the notion of God because of evil.
Can you find God with all of the suffering in the world? Likewise, many deny that God would allow suffering.
Can you find God in philosophy? Probably not since that is where I started my search for wisdom, knowledge and yes even the spiritual realm.
Can the number of religions cause confusion? Absolutely.
Can the sum of our elements define all of our being? No, I don't believe we are just atoms and molecules but something much more.
Many people look in a lot of different places, yet the first place I found God was in the Bible. Is there evidence of God? Absolutely. I was saved through the study of Bible prophecy. As a medical doctor with an undergraduate degree in biology with minors in math and science. I was well versed in the basic sciences and evolution at the time I accepted the Bible and Christ. I did so with open eyes to the detractors of the Bible.
Is there evidence of God, absolutely, all around us and specifically in the Bible itself.
I wish you the best in your search. I found my answer in November of 1994 and have not looked back since.
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No person in my various careers, who dazzled me with words designed to soften the message and causing me to decipher to understand, ever went far in their career.
Per this thread; if you ask I assume you want the answer. The same if you participate in a philosophical discussion, I will tell you what I think and I will attempt to support that information.
As I glanced through the messages on this thread, religion came up several times. Fine for you but I don’t need that crutch. The Mythical Being who has Never Been Seen (the name of an old blog I wrote) is an invention of man and some of the time man has made good use of God. I see religion as an extremely private matter, which means I find fault with organized religion but no fault with the beliefs of others.
Then there are doctors; I have a great deal of trouble with about half of that bunch that I meet. In dialysis I developed a formula for water outtake, determined when testing was necessary, all on the basis that my body belongs to me. I suffered a serious misdiagnosis a while back that put me in this chair, made walking a shaky enterprise and ended a career in powerlifting. I came here because, like chemotherapy, there are always people who have it worse off, and oddly, that makes me feel like a member of the club. I belong. No sniveling over my health issues.
When dialysis ended, I attempted to quit this forum. I must have wowed someone because they keep telling me to come back. Then some members started to move to England. To stop the exodus, I tried to marry all of the ladies here. No takers. I must have bad breath.
I believe that the sharing of knowledge is what makes this forum great. At any time on any day, you can ask and someone will do their best to respond. Well, not HemoDoc, he keeps office hours.
Say, does anyone know any off-color jokes?
gl
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Office hours Gerald? Hmmm, it is about 1:00 am right now. Well so much for that comment.
If folks don't wish to believe in God, that test is not necessarily here and now but at the moment of their death. I guess if God is just a Mythical being, then nothing to worry about is how a lot folks approach that question.
BTW, how are you you old curmudgeon?
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I am seventy-five.
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I am seventy-five.
Well, I hope all is still going well.
Take care Gerald.
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HemoDoc:
My body is over-producing mucus in the sinuses and the lungs. After five doctors and five different ideas on how to resolve this problem, which makes me cough and sometimes faint, I fired the entire group. Can no longer exercise in the weight room since straining makes me cough and faint. Cannot let that bar fall into my face.
The macular degeneration has reached a serious level, cannot hardly see the keyboard. I see the monitor a little better unless the fonts are in blue, then I'm lost. Hearing has almost gone. Doc says it is nerve damage from chemotherapy - ABVD protocol. Still on chemotherapy but we are using some sort of anti-body. Two more sessions and I'm finished.
So, can't hear, see, exercise, have scarred lungs and a pulmonary embolism. I shaved off my beard and cut my hair, all I need now is a job, and I put away my protest signs. One more thing: despite the eyesight problem I've taken up painting.
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Gerald, so sorry to hear you had to shave your beard. You were quite attached as I recall. (Sorry) This getting old bit is still for the birds.