Why Responding to Some Posts is very ...

[MaryD]

I still have no idea who this member is.  When did this happen? 

It was Henry P Snicklesnorter.  He was so appalled at the way Rerun derided Obsidian after one of Obsidian's posts and the way Rerun behaved afterwards.

Henry P was one of the most helpful, upbeat and informative posters this site had.  It was sad that he deleted all his posts, but he did not feel he wanted to continue here.

I no longer feel that it a safe place to post either, and I have changed my avatar to the one that the moderators changed Henry P's avatar to.

[Zach]

I still have no idea who this member is.  When did this happen? 

It was Henry P Snicklesnorter.  He was so appalled at the way Rerun derided Obsidian after one of Obsidian's posts and the way Rerun behaved afterwards.

Henry P was one of the most helpful, upbeat and informative posters this site had.  It was sad that he deleted all his posts, but he did not feel he wanted to continue here.

I no longer feel that it a safe place to post either, and I have changed my avatar to the one that the moderators changed Henry P's avatar to.

I was wrong … I guess I didn't remember the incident.
 

[cariad]

Hemodoc, the ONLY reason I even brought up the divorce rate is because quite often atheists are painted as miserable, unloving and unloved people, not as you imply to prove that atheists are "better" people. You are the one who tried to make it seem that way. Then you brought up your own unfortunate choice in marriage. I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean.

Of everything I had to say about being an atheist and my policy of tolerance, it appears you are trying to make it seem like I am focusing on divorce. I wasn't, but it seems you are.

Well-said again, Aleta! Thanks for going through what I absolutely refuse to read.

[Hemodoc]

The survey itself does not draw the conclusions that you draw above nor that is drawn in the popular press. No wonder there is a lower divorce rate among atheists. They don't marry as often as Christian couples. What conclusions can you draw from that inference? Certainly not the ones you are trying to imply.

Just my own two cents worth.

Moosemom, get the popcorn.   

Hemodoc, the ONLY reason I even brought up the divorce rate is because quite often atheists are painted as miserable, unloving and unloved people, not as you imply to prove that atheists are "better" people. You are the one who tried to make it seem that way. Then you brought up your own unfortunate choice in marriage. I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean.

Of everything I had to say about being an atheist and my policy of tolerance, it appears you are trying to make it seem like I am focusing on divorce. I wasn't, but it seems you are.

We all have the shared burdens and failures of this life. If you choose to not believe in an afterlife, that is your choice.

I would find it quite hopeless to have no thoughts of a soul and of God. In fact, hopelessness is one of the prevalent risk factors for suicide and atheists do have higher rates of suicide, assisted suicide and hopelessness when facing death according to various studies.

http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html

The study you were referring to above on divorce did not draw the conclusion you alleged it did. Since atheists don't marry as often, of course you will have a lower divorce rate. The demographics are not comparable as the authors of this study noted but that is not what was reported in the popular press.

And yes, it was an unfortunate choice in marriage brought on actually by a hope of a better life for the girl. Unfortunately, the demons of her past would not let her loose. Oddly, It is not with regret that I married her at all as I learned much in this marriage and I have a wonderful son who is doing well. I would not be the first to have made an unfortunate choice for well intended wishes. You live and learn as they say and that was quite the lesson.

Today, I am able to bring some of these lessons to fruition as I help raise my 4 year old granddaughter. I believe completely that this little girl will benefit greatly from my lessons learned from my own adversities.

Now, I do have a question, at the hour of your death, how will you avoid the feeling of helplessness and emptiness as your own life ebbs away into nothingness? I would believe that would be quite frightful myself. I am thankful for the blessed hope and promises of my Saviour and of a better existence to come. I believe in a soul and that the soul is eternal as the Bible teaches. I believe we were made in the image of God and that He is eternal as well.

Most of the physicians I worked with in CA had some religious affiliation. One noted exception did not. If you asked him what would happen to him when he died, he said he would turn into worm food. His world view was reflected in many ways in the manner in which he approached end of life care for his patients in a quite cold and dispassionate manner. Most of my colleagues would place the patients best interests above Kaiser as a company and often fight the system for their benefit. He coldly always choice Kaiser over the patients wishes, always. The administration obviously loved him as a steward of the company but we had to pick up the pieces he left behind and often deal with bitter feelings against Kaiser.

I can't help but believe that his callousness was in large part because of his atheism and secondly that there will be no judgement in his world view of his actions at a later time. As a nephrologist, he couldn't stand working in the dialysis unit and his patients were most likely not to have access placed in a timely manner, nor did he ever embrace optimal dialysis protocols at all. He had simply written off all of those of us on dialysis essentially in his mindset. He was a very bright man, but I fear his devotion to atheism and darwinism diminished his capacity for empathy and compassion.

[kristina]

The survey itself does not draw the conclusions that you draw above nor that is drawn in the popular press. No wonder there is a lower divorce rate among atheists. They don't marry as often as Christian couples. What conclusions can you draw from that inference? Certainly not the ones you are trying to imply.

Just my own two cents worth.

Moosemom, get the popcorn.   

Hemodoc, the ONLY reason I even brought up the divorce rate is because quite often atheists are painted as miserable, unloving and unloved people, not as you imply to prove that atheists are "better" people. You are the one who tried to make it seem that way. Then you brought up your own unfortunate choice in marriage. I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean.

Of everything I had to say about being an atheist and my policy of tolerance, it appears you are trying to make it seem like I am focusing on divorce. I wasn't, but it seems you are.

Most of the physicians I worked with in CA had some religious affiliation. One noted exception did not. If you asked him what would happen to him when he died, he said he would turn into worm food. His world view was reflected in many ways in the manner in which he approached end of life care for his patients in a quite cold and dispassionate manner. Most of my colleagues would place the patients best interests above Kaiser as a company and often fight the system for their benefit. He coldly always choice Kaiser over the patients wishes, always. The administration obviously loved him as a steward of the company but we had to pick up the pieces he left behind and often deal with bitter feelings against Kaiser.

I can't help but believe that his callousness was in large part because of his atheism and secondly that there will be no judgement in his world view of his actions at a later time. As a nephrologist, he couldn't stand working in the dialysis unit and his patients were most likely not to have access placed in a timely manner, nor did he ever embrace optimal dialysis protocols at all. He had simply written off all of those of us on dialysis essentially in his mindset. He was a very bright man, but I fear his devotion to atheism and darwinism diminished his capacity for empathy and compassion.

I beg to differ because I have my doubt that this neph’s lack of medical assistance to vulnerable patients is directly connected to his atheism...
... and I think a lack of  medical integrity and/or a lack of character would much better fit the description ...

... When I was very frail, unwell and at my most vulnerable, I had the misfortune to come across doctors, who showed no skills and no interest to diagnose my symptoms ... 
...they demonstrated a lack of medical assistance because they regarded themselves as superior to me with my medical frailties ...
... they looked down on me  in superiority because I was so unwell and would have needed their urgent medical help... which they refused to give...
...in fact, I have come across doctors who seem to enjoy a patient’s suffering and they do not assist medically... on purpose...
...These doctors have been known to “mess up” deliberately, so that an early diagnosis is made impossible ...

... This seems to be a phenomena and I have wondered why such doctors became medics...?

... It is doctors/people like that who make me concerned about the fact that so many people wish euthanasia to be easily available if and when needed...
... because euthanasia has been misused by too many wrong people in the past...
... one European "compromise" is a Clinic in Switzerland: anyone who feels they can't go on any longer,
... has to give their reasons before applying and only then may they travel to this Clinic... lost of planning and lots of action involved...
... which may make many people re-think... and that keeps life where it should be : as our most precious asset....

... I believe the above mentioned problem is much deeper and can’t be easily explained away because we don’t really know the answers...

... Schopenhauer would say "the first forty years of our life give us the text; the next thirty supply the commentary on it..."

[kristina]

I still have no idea who this member is.  When did this happen? 

It was Henry P Snicklesnorter.  He was so appalled at the way Rerun derided Obsidian after one of Obsidian's posts and the way Rerun behaved afterwards.

Henry P was one of the most helpful, upbeat and informative posters this site had.  It was sad that he deleted all his posts, but he did not feel he wanted to continue here.

I no longer feel that it a safe place to post either, and I have changed my avatar to the one that the moderators changed Henry P's avatar to.

Thank you Mary, for the information.
I was wondering what happened to Henry Snickelsnorter.
I very much appreciated his information, his humour and optimism... and his witty poems...
... and I do hope he comes back again...
Kind regards from Kristina.

[Hemodoc]

Thanks Kristina,

There are many forms of atheism and how people derive their logic for rejecting the notion of God. The doctor in question was heavily influenced by evolutionary thought and actively waged war so to speak against people like myself who believe in creationism and the God of the Bible both in his activities and with his monies. I had MANY conversations with him over a period of 11 years, both as a colleague and as a patient. He did not believe in an afterlife, a soul, or an eternal judgement. He was very much a bottom line sort of person who I believe honestly thought that putting Kaiser's financial well being at the forefront of his decision making was for the greater good of all Kaiser patients. Certainly, that is a thought process quite prevalent today. His actions were very much based on his philosophical beliefs. Once again, this was a longstanding conversation and relationship I had with this doctor over an 11 year period of time I worked with him and two years after as a dialysis patient and then casual encounters after I went on home dialysis.

Yes, there are many further elements at play as you state, but certainly his belief system did play a major role in his decision making.

As far as the euthanasia issue, many forget the history of Naziism that was first enacted  against the mentally disabled and it was the doctors that helped put involuntary euthanasia into practice in the insane asylums. Yes, doctors with the power to decide euthanasia are a force to be feared for certain. That continues to be one of ethical arguments against legalizing euthanasia and slippery slope it engenders as you noted.

Another aspect that plays into the euthanasia issue is that of quality of life measurements in medical practice. It is quite common for the medical staff to make a comment that the patient has "no quality of life" and urge discontinuation of medical care because of that judgement. I believe that was part of the issue of the nephrologist in question and the manner in which he approached dialysis patients. If you didn't get a transplant, he had little interest in your case. Some conflate the meaning of a person's life with quality of life but meaning cannot be measured by one's disabilities.

The meaning of life is an issue first looked at when I was a teenager with Victor Frankl's book based on his experiences in a Nazi concentration camp. Meaning of life can only be defined by that individual and is not something any doctor can measure by outward appearances. One patient with a severe head injury from a car accident had instructed his wife to "pull the plug" if he couldn't continue in his work. He was a nationally known surgeon who produced teaching videos on
laporascopic surgery. I still remember the neurosurgeon who took him off the ventilator and removed the intracranial monitors. He looked at me and said, I could have saved this man's life and he would have been able to make a profound recovery.

Yet his wife and one of his closest colleagues came 2 hours to his bedside to stop all medical treatment on his second hospital day. Is meaning of life so tenuous that proficiency in your profession is the only meaningful aspect.

It still brings the question on how does an atheist approach the last moments of life? What brings meaning at the moment?

[willowtreewren]

Thank you, Kristina.

I, too, suspect that this doctor's atheism had little to do with his lack of empathy. I have known several religious doctors who were sorely lacking in that department, but I do not blame their religion for their brusk manner. 

Hemodoc,

Many atheists stay "in the closet" for fear of social repercussions. Indeed, I am professionally a closet atheist. Unfortunately, for younger atheists - those who think they are alone in their lack of belief - this social isolation can take a heavy emotional toll. Imagine realizing one doesn't share the belief system of your friends and family and not being able to share that truth with them. This sad sense of isolation is hopefully being diminished by efforts of the more prominent atheist figures. I know many atheists who said, "I thought I was the only one," before finding a supportive community of like-minded individuals. I would liken this to realizing one was gay, and feeling there is no one to whom you can turn.

As for "studies" that show that suicide is higher among atheists, the 2004 Zuckerman study was terribly flawed. (see http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/5181). Also, the numbers provided by the WHO, list suicides as highest among "atheistic" states. Well, THAT comes as no surprise. Consider those countries: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and, to a lesser extent, Finland, Hungary and the Russian Federation, with China having the highest. I have a strong suspicion that the reason for the higher rates of suicide has nothing to do with religion, but more to do with the type of government found in those countries along with other geographical or cultural factors.

Hemodoc, you merely reinforce my observations that there is a widespread stereotype of the hopeless, unhappy atheist. You seem determined to cling to that stereotype and promote it here.

If you would be hopeless without your religion, then I'm glad you have it to bolster your sense of well being.

As to being hopeless and helpless at the end of life, why no. I am made of atoms that were forged in the center of stars and those very atoms will once again find themselves shining brightly in such firey life. My consciousness will be gone, but I have worked hard in this life to leave the world a better place for those who come after me. I leave an important legacy. At death I can lay down that mantle for a new generation. I don't see a need to cling to a hope of eternal life. This is a fundamental difference between us. I am content to be made of stardust and return to the same.

I am reminded, though of a thread here on IHD several years back where folks struggled with knowing whether stopping dialysis was a form of suicide http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=1113.0. This question was fraught with anxiety for those who had a religious background because of the sanctions against suicide. People worried that committing suicide by stopping their treatments would bar them from the eternal life they hoped awaited them. We atheists are less concerned about that and actually consider suicide under some circumstances the better alternative. That isn't being cold-hearted. In fact, I would consider it compassionate.

I do not intend to change your mind. But I will continue my happy, productive, compassionate existence as your friendly neighborhood atheist.

 

Aleta

Aleta

[Hemodoc]

Dear Aleta, dust to dust, ashes to ashes is the fate of all who have walked the earth. If anyone's legacy is that our work left it a better place, I would have to contend that the world is not a better place year by year and day by day. Certainly, the world I grew up in no longer exists and I fear greatly the future for my grandchild. I am not sure how well we are doing to bring about that entity of a better place. Quite badly really in many ways.

As far as religion and withholding of care at end of life, you are frankly quite wrong that religion is against natural processes and withholding care if it is the choice of the person involved.  Medically, legally and ethically withholding of care is NOT suicide. As a devout Christian I on many occasions withdrew care at patients and families requests. Perhaps the greatest ethical studies on this subject come not from atheists, but instead from the Roman Catholic Church. Sorry, you are simply wrong on your allegation once again.

As far as atheism, I am not attacking it at all nor am I attacking you. I am simply posing a question on how an atheist derives meaning at his last possible breath. I have accomplished many things in my life which is a legacy, but if all of those accomplishments were my sole source of comfort at the hour of my death, I am afraid I would be sorely at a loss.

I will rest instead on the legacy of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ of Nazareth who created all things that are created and gave His life as a ransom for many. As a man of science, I am not at all deterred by the so called science of evolution declaring God dead. I have examined both and readily understand that evolution fails because it does not rest on science and evidence, but instead on unproven and unknowable assumptions. On the other hand, I can look and see evidence of a worldwide flood all around me and I can embrace the creation with marvelous nano-machines that time and chance could never produce and must  have come from an intelligence far beyond our own. No true science stands in support of the creation and the flood, but if folks wish to believe in Darwinism or Neo-Darwinism or Punctuated Equilibrium or the Big Bang so be it. Sorry, I don't buy any of that pseudoscience at all.

[willowtreewren]

As far as religion and withholding of care at end of life, you are frankly quite wrong that religion is against natural processes and withholding care if it is the choice of the person involved.  Medically, legally and ethically withholding of care is NOT suicide. As a devout Christian I on many occasions withdrew care at patients and families requests. Perhaps the greatest ethical studies on this subject come not from atheists, but instead from the Roman Catholic Church. Sorry, you are simply wrong on your allegation once again.

Ah, it seems I have not been clear. I did not make any allegations that withholding treatment is or is not suicide. I also did not say anything to the effect that religion considers withholding treatment wrong.

What I was trying to convey is that people are divided on this topic (as can be seen in the aforementioned thread), but it is fraught with anxiety for those who are more religious. All of the Judeo-Christian religions have sanctions against suicide and consider it a sin. So it becomes important for followers to come to terms personally with the notion of whether quitting treatment is suicide. It is less important for those of us who are not religious, as no sin is attached with taking one's life. You may feel confident in your understanding of the definition of suicide vs. withholding care, but others who participated in the thread may not be so convinced. Personally, it doesn't matter to me.

I think approaching the end of one's life with equanimity might be easier if it is not also a time to worry whether that life has been good enough to garner a pleasant afterlife (or whether I have fallen short and will live in eternal damnation!!!). I can be reasonably assured that I have left this world a better place than it would have been if I had not been born. I really don't ask any more than that.

 

Aleta

[Hemodoc]

As far as religion and withholding of care at end of life, you are frankly quite wrong that religion is against natural processes and withholding care if it is the choice of the person involved.  Medically, legally and ethically withholding of care is NOT suicide. As a devout Christian I on many occasions withdrew care at patients and families requests. Perhaps the greatest ethical studies on this subject come not from atheists, but instead from the Roman Catholic Church. Sorry, you are simply wrong on your allegation once again.

Ah, it seems I have not been clear. I did not make any allegations that withholding treatment is or is not suicide. I also did not say anything to the effect that religion considers withholding treatment wrong.

What I was trying to convey is that people are divided on this topic (as can be seen in the aforementioned thread), but it is fraught with anxiety for those who are more religious. All of the Judeo-Christian religions have sanctions against suicide and consider it a sin. So it becomes important for followers to come to terms personally with the notion of whether quitting treatment is suicide. It is less important for those of us who are not religious, as no sin is attached with taking one's life. You may feel confident in your understanding of the definition of suicide vs. withholding care, but others who participated in the thread may not be so convinced. Personally, it doesn't matter to me.

I think approaching the end of one's life with equanimity might be easier if it is not also a time to worry whether that life has been good enough to garner a pleasant afterlife (or whether I have fallen short and will live in eternal damnation!!!). I can be reasonably assured that I have left this world a better place than it would have been if I had not been born. I really don't ask any more than that.

 

Aleta

I must frankly state that I can't recall ever encountering religion as an issue in withdrawal of care when that was the obvious best option in a futile situation.  Since I have done this as a physician many times over in 20 years of practice and schooling, I must question the accuracy of your perception. Do you have any statistics on that allegation or is that your bias.

If people are confused about the issue is quite different than religion creating the impression of suicide in those situations. That is NOT my understanding as a physician nor as a born again Christian. Once again, what is your source for that contention?

Taking anyone's life is a sin, Thou Shalt not kill applies to your own life. It is God the gives life and takes it at our time appointed. Suicide is not the unpardonable sin and does not in itself engender eternal damnation.  When it comes down to it, the only sin God cannot forgive is rejecting His Son. David was a murderer as was Moses. Paul the apostle was not just a murderer but he was guilty of slaughter and that of Christians prior to his conversion. Yet, God not only forgave them, but used them in a mighty way. So, not sure where you are getting your information on Christianity, but it is likely not the same source I obtained mine.

Secondly, I don't have to work at all for my salvation, it is a gift given freely to me by Jesus. I can never be "good enough" to gain admission to Heaven without His shed blood on the cross. With Resurrection Sunday tomorrow, this is a very apt conversation. The gospel is quite clear on that message. It is His work that He accomplished that is all that matters. If we could "earn" Heaven on our own, why then did God send His Son to the cross? No, there is only one way, one truth and one life through Jesus our Lord. That is what the Bible teaches. Not sure where your conjecture comes from.

As far as falling short, that is the human condition.

[willowtreewren]

Taking anyone's life is a sin, Thou Shalt not kill applies to your own life. It is God the gives life and takes it at our time appointed.

Exactly. This quite clearly explains why people are concerned over the question of whether quitting dialysis is suicide. You have come to a confident conclusion that it isn't. Others have not, thus their anxiety over the issue.

   Why are you trying to make it into an issue of whether I understand Christian medical ethics? Or whether I understand your version of Christianity? I am not claiming to understand or advocate for or against either. I am making a statement about why folks are concerned about the definition of suicide.

You asked me a question about how I face the end of life. I answered it. I'm not sure what this refers to:

Not sure where your conjecture comes from.

What conjecture?

Talker, I apologize for this tangent to your original post.

I will continue to be a happy atheist who accepts the prayers of others as a natural expression of human caring. I feel concern for those who worry about whether they should cease dialysis if the going gets too rough, regardless of their religious leanings. Life is tough and it shouldn't be made tougher for those facing difficult decisions. 

Aleta

[talker]

 

    http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=31012.msg479912#msg479912

    Were, that one could speak from the heart, without causing a disrupting ruckus and endless controversy.   

     talker     

   

    http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=31012.msg479912#msg479912

              Talker, I apologize for this tangent to your original post.  
I feel concern for those who worry about whether they should cease dialysis if the going gets too rough, regardless of their religious leanings. Life is tough and it shouldn't be made tougher for those facing difficult decisions. 

Aleta     

While appreciated, no apologies, as we are all expressing or hiding the emotions that caused the 'title' I initially used for this topic.
My opening post, left out what actually would have been a small booklet in the 'telling' of my feelings regards responding to some postings. 
Yes, there are streams of insights into ones state of emotions, as they do their comment posting.

Have observed the decline of health and mobility of many passing in and out of the dialysis center.
There are those very sad moments, of my prayers, for those I see that are literally on their death bed.
Yes, then word filters in, that 'so and so' passed. 

Thoughts that one is committing suicide by stopping dialysis is wrong.
That one is lucid and able to speak and communicate with loved ones, while saying their goodbyes, is beautiful to behold. This as opposed to, to weak to speak, or in a coma, as loved ones, sit, stand, whisper, and shed tears, while the dying person is unable to participate in any fashion.
Sorry, at times words do interfere with effective communication.

talker

[gothiclovemonkey]

Thought id throw this out there since it seems relevant...
My husband is Atheist, I am Agnostic (basically, i have my own beliefs, that are basically christian beliefs, but i dont go to a church regularly, and i dont really believe everything about christianity, so i dont call myelf a christian...) and my son is interested in Christianity, so my husband and I are supporting his decision. We would do that no matter what religion he chooses. I have found him a church, we will be attending.
I dont really understand why this has always been an issue. why cant people just be who they are and believe what they wish to believe and leave it alone?!  For the most part, all religion is basically the same. Same story, but the names and dates have changed.

[kristina]

Thank you Hemodoc, willowtreewren ...
...I beg to differ again: when I mentioned doctors/people who wish to implement euthanasia right now, I did not only refer to the Nazis ...
What I meant is that - unfortunately - many governments and people have “developed” and “very much refined” the original Nazi-idea of euthanasia
to an almost “very fine art” these days ...
...Please don’t misunderstand what I am trying to say... but these days many different “modernized” ways of euthanasia have been “implemented” in many countries -
without any democratic discussion making citizens aware of such goings on...
...that is what I have tried to convey in my original post...
 
...For example, here in the UK many old age pensioners and/or disabled patients/ mentally handicapped children/people do often not receive
the medical care they should receive, because of the (unspoken) argument by medics (and re-enforced by the media),
that “those financially poor pensioners/disabled/mentally handicapped patients
have no quality of life anyway ... another argument to implement such a discrimination is that there is supposed not enough money in the NHS (health care system)
to treat everyone anymore...
...I have also noticed the indirect implementation of euthanasia, called here in the UK the “Liverpool pathway”, enabling doctors to “gently assist”
a “sick patient with no quality of life” (as it is termed) to end their life... quickly...
...How can doctors know whether or not someone’s life should or should not end?
...How can they know if a patient is not in the process to fight in order to have a chance and continue with their life?
...I feel very passionate about this, because I have been in this situation twice in my life and I made a full recovery every time.
The first time, after I had suffered two cerebral haemorrhages and I needed two life-saving different operations (each of them lasting for many hours)
on two different sites and whilst being half gone I still could hear medics discussing that I had not much of a chance to “pull through”;
the second time was after I suffered a stroke at the age of only 38 years old (due to negligence of a doctor), when I was in such a bad state,
that I was not even offered rehabilitation at the hospital... making my  eventual rehabilitation later so much harder for me,
 because so much valuable time had been wasted until I could finally start with my rehabilitation (in another EC country because I was not offered any rehabilitation in the UK)...
 At the time of the stroke, I could not speak anymore, because I was  not only “locked up” inside but also right-sided paralyzed, I could not walk,
needed a wheelchair and was not able to look after myself or eat without any help... I was in a terrible state at the time...
This apparently arrogant and flippant approach by some doctors towards fragile patients when they at their most vulnerable has alarmed and concerned me ever since...

...Another (European) trend has been observed, when some young motorcyclists had “only” a fractured leg or a fractured arm after an accident
and then they suddenly die in hospital and they happen to have carried a donor card ...
...Whilst visiting friends on the Continent, I watched a TV report about the above mentioned transplant/donor card problem...
... this TV report was quite shocking, because it conveyed  to the onlooker the feeling, that these young men did “not make it” because of their donor card
and because of a desperation for more donations...
...Another problem is money and the transplant waiting list because not too long ago the family of a young man involved in a severe motorbike accident
decided to donate his organs and immediately a very rich man from a country in the Near East was flown into the UK to receive one of these donated kidneys... 
... the patients on the kidney waiting list in the UK were not considered at this point, because, it seems, money speaks louder
and the money of this man had overruled the waiting list...
... This incident was reported Nationwide within the UK, not only in newspapers but also in Radio discussions and it certainly made many people very suspicious
and made them to re-think...  It put them off the thought of signing a donor card just in case they had an accident... people do not wish to be misused as donors...

When I mentioned my concerns about the implementation of euthanasia in my former post, I was thinking on those lines...

I agree with willowtreewren in the case of the suicide rate in countries where a “no hope” political/economic climate makes  people to commit suicide...
... it is very doubtful that their suicide is connected to being an atheist - or not - ...
... One convincing example is Chile: after the assassination of Salvador Allende in September 1973, many people tried to flee the country,
... and the suicide rate in Chile went up dramatically under the dictatorship of Pinochet ...
... these suicides were not connected to their religious beliefs or non-beliefs, but they were mainly connected to the complete hopelessness during Pinochet’s dictatorship ...

...Before the fall of the Berlin Wall East Germany and Russia had a very high suicide rate...  the high suicide rate in both countries was not officially confirmed ...
... because it pointed the finger at the unfriendliness of their political/economical systems, making life very hopeless and extremely depressing for many citizens...
... and the fact that there was no way out... One Hungarian acquaintance of mine crawled slowly, inch by inch, through the border and finally made it to the West...
... not many people dared such a life-dangerous risky approach...

... another example is the high suicide rate amongst young men in the UK right now, which is very considerable,
because so much pressure is put on young men to succeed ...
In fact, our media almost implements, that a young man’s life is not worth anything if he is not a great achiever...
... problem is that in order to achieve one not only needs strong, ruthless elbows (to push everyone else out of the way),
 but also no conscience and a certain brutality ... and not every person is able to identify with such political/economical/sociological demands...

I agree with Aleta about the so-called "studies" by Zuckerman, supposedly showing that suicide is higher among atheists.
Also, as Aleta informs us, the numbers provided by the WHO list show suicides as highest among "atheistic" states
and countries like Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and, to a lesser extent, Finland, Hungary and the Russian Federation, with China having the highest suicide rates...

Many of the former (socialist/communist) Eastern countries  left many people ended up very confused about religion,
 because according to the political dogma at the time, religion is “opium for the people” and should not exist...
...many people wished to be openly religious without any fears... but religion in former socialist/communist countries was frowned upon.

... After the fall of the Berlin Wall many eastern countries “resurrected” their (whatever) religions openly...
... when the USSR was still the USSR, many orthodox Christians were sent into exile to Siberia because of their beliefs
... and now they are “permitted” to return back to Russia ...

... Perhaps all the above mentioned problems are much deeper and can’t be easily explained away because we don’t really know the answers...

.... In case I have “strayed” from the original theme of the post I do apologize...

     Kristina.

[talker]

Thank you kristina 

That made for an interesting read.   

As I would say it 'You've experienced a lot of water under the bridge' painting your life tapestry.   

In case I have “strayed” from the original theme of the post I do apologize...

     Kristina

On my part 'stray' in a like fashion all you want.  To me, it is all part of the emotions that generally never see the light of day.   

talker

[Hemodoc]

Thought id throw this out there since it seems relevant...
My husband is Atheist, I am Agnostic (basically, i have my own beliefs, that are basically christian beliefs, but i dont go to a church regularly, and i dont really believe everything about christianity, so i dont call myelf a christian...) and my son is interested in Christianity, so my husband and I are supporting his decision. We would do that no matter what religion he chooses. I have found him a church, we will be attending.
I dont really understand why this has always been an issue. why cant people just be who they are and believe what they wish to believe and leave it alone?!  For the most part, all religion is basically the same. Same story, but the names and dates have changed.

Well, since it is Resurrection Sunday, I would have to say that the empty tomb is what makes Christianity different from all other religions.  Allah has no son, so that is not the same God as the God of Israel which both Christians and Jews worship. The other religions do have an interesting common origin which Alexander Hislop detailed in his book, The Two Babylons. But the risen Saviour is what makes Christianity different from all other religions. He rose from the dead and that is celebrated worldwide on this very day today.

[Hemodoc]

Dear Kristina, the issue of fast tracking patients for death in Britain is one topic not covered at all that I can see in the US press especially with Obamacare and it's horrific start. Few realize that the doctor can choose this path for any patient they deem appropriate despite objections from the patient and from the families. It sounds as if you survived such a plight yourself. Yes, when you have doctors deciding who lives or dies, then we are all in trouble. That is why informed consent is such an important concept universally for all patients that is becoming a thing of the past in many places, especially the dialysis unit.

As far as studies on atheism and suicide, it is actually an area with quite a few studies and not just the 2004 study that Aleta is referring to. Countries with "organic atheism," which is un-coerced but a dictator does correlate with suicide rates. The 10 countries with the highest suicide rates also have the highest rates of organic atheism. So, yes, this issue has been studied by quite few folks including the WHO with a large study in 2003 for instance looking at the suicide rates throughout the entire world.

In addition, the atheist community gets up in arms about the Zuckerman study, however, Zuckerman himself concludes that religiosity is not good for a nation since most of those nations are the poorest with high rates of infant mortality while the organic atheist countries like Denmark, Sweden etc. have the highest freedoms and income. Interestingly, in his discussion, he does not talk of the US which is a statistical outlier of his claims on religiosity since the US has a very high rate of religious belief and for quite some time WAS the highest standard of living and freedom of any nation, but sadly not any longer. The Zuckerman article is actually quite pro-atheism in totality but it does document the higher rates of suicide in the atheist community. So, I am not sure if folks are actually reading his articles or just the propaganda about his article.

The US has one of the lowest rates of organic atheism and Britain is in the middle of the pack with about 40% organic atheism. I would hope that patients would appreciate doctors who have a sense of the preciousness of life and a sense of hope in their own philosophical outlook. I do beg to differ on the pronouncement that the nephrologist I spoke of that I knew personally since 1996 was not greatly influenced by his own atheistic outlook. I have had dozens of conversations with him on this issue and he was quite forthright in his opinions. 

It is not a wonder that the Denmark and other secular nations in Europe also have the highest levels of euthanasia in the world. It seems that that is a statistical correlation as well. Britain with their NHS and their fast track death program is quite a frightening affair and does not bode well for future developments. If the government through the NHS is making decisions on who lives or dies, what is the next step?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6127514/Sentenced-to-death-on-the-NHS.html

[willowtreewren]

As far as studies on atheism and suicide, it is actually an area with quite a few studies and not just the 2004 study that Aleta is referring to. Countries with "organic atheism," which is un-coerced but a dictator does correlate with suicide rates. The 10 countries with the highest suicide rates also have the highest rates of organic atheism. So, yes, this issue has been studied by quite few folks including the WHO with a large study in 2003 for instance looking at the suicide rates throughout the entire world.

Could you provide citations? In doing searches, I find the 2004 Zuckerman study and many citations to it.

[Hemodoc]

As far as studies on atheism and suicide, it is actually an area with quite a few studies and not just the 2004 study that Aleta is referring to. Countries with "organic atheism," which is un-coerced but a dictator does correlate with suicide rates. The 10 countries with the highest suicide rates also have the highest rates of organic atheism. So, yes, this issue has been studied by quite few folks including the WHO with a large study in 2003 for instance looking at the suicide rates throughout the entire world.

Could you provide citations? In doing searches, I find the 2004 Zuckerman study and many citations to it.

http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/zuckerman_on_atheism.pdf

http://web.b.ebscohost.com/abstract?direct=true&profile=ehost&scope=site&authtype=crawler&jrnl=20785488&AN=82105455&h=v8p%2f2n%2fZ0r56Awhum73kufrS56YxAZRGf3vL0GTnfN5F02des1NanxTcOiq%2bjjQagGDiXKQtnEfTbKwk6th2bA%3d%3d&crl=c

http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/jpm.2006.0197


OMEGA--Journal of Death and Dying
     Issue:     Volume 11, Number 4 / 1980-81
     Pages:     317 - 324
    URL:    Linking Options
    DOI:     10.2190/YP62-4U57-V8CJ-XYNH
The Correlations of Attitudes Toward Suicide with Death Anxiety, Religiosity, and Personal Closeness to Suicide

Julianne D. Minear A1 and Lorelei R. Brush A2

A1  Elmcrest Psychiatric Institute, Portland, Connecticut
A2 Abt Associates Inc., Wesleyan University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
Abstract:

College students from four different institutions were asked to report their attitudes toward suicide, their anxiety about death, the degree of their religiosity, the substance of their religious beliefs, and the seriousness with which they had considered suicide. The more supportive students were about the right of people in general to commit suicide and the more situations they felt would justify their own suicide, the more anxious they felt about death, the less strongly they were committed to a religion, and the more seriously they had thought about committing suicide. A discussion about the ramifications of these results for the college campus is included.

https://iasp.info/pdf/papers/Bertolote.pdf

[Hemodoc]

Here is an interesting article on end of life choices supported by doctors in the US according to religious affiliation. I would like to find a survey of British doctors to see how widespread atheism is among them. That may in part explain the Liverpool pathway popularity by the British Health care system.

http://ajh.sagepub.com/content/25/2/112.short

[willowtreewren]

As far as studies on atheism and suicide, it is actually an area with quite a few studies and not just the 2004 study that Aleta is referring to. Countries with "organic atheism," which is un-coerced but a dictator does correlate with suicide rates. The 10 countries with the highest suicide rates also have the highest rates of organic atheism. So, yes, this issue has been studied by quite few folks including the WHO with a large study in 2003 for instance looking at the suicide rates throughout the entire world.

Could you provide citations? In doing searches, I find the 2004 Zuckerman study and many citations to it.

http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/zuckerman_on_atheism.pdf

http://web.b.ebscohost.com/abstract?direct=true&profile=ehost&scope=site&authtype=crawler&jrnl=20785488&AN=82105455&h=v8p%2f2n%2fZ0r56Awhum73kufrS56YxAZRGf3vL0GTnfN5F02des1NanxTcOiq%2bjjQagGDiXKQtnEfTbKwk6th2bA%3d%3d&crl=c

http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/jpm.2006.0197


OMEGA--Journal of Death and Dying
     Issue:     Volume 11, Number 4 / 1980-81
     Pages:     317 - 324
    URL:    Linking Options
    DOI:     10.2190/YP62-4U57-V8CJ-XYNH
The Correlations of Attitudes Toward Suicide with Death Anxiety, Religiosity, and Personal Closeness to Suicide

Julianne D. Minear A1 and Lorelei R. Brush A2

A1  Elmcrest Psychiatric Institute, Portland, Connecticut
A2 Abt Associates Inc., Wesleyan University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
Abstract:

College students from four different institutions were asked to report their attitudes toward suicide, their anxiety about death, the degree of their religiosity, the substance of their religious beliefs, and the seriousness with which they had considered suicide. The more supportive students were about the right of people in general to commit suicide and the more situations they felt would justify their own suicide, the more anxious they felt about death, the less strongly they were committed to a religion, and the more seriously they had thought about committing suicide. A discussion about the ramifications of these results for the college campus is included.

https://iasp.info/pdf/papers/Bertolote.pdf

Thank you.

I imagine those college-aged students may not have discovered that there is a support community among non-theists. The support community among the religious is well-known and easy to find. That feeling of being the only atheist is quite prevalent among younger ages and could certainly contribute to feelings of isolation and desperation. In reality, many atheists keep their beliefs to themselves to avoid public censure. A couple of years ago I attended the Reason Rally in DC. There were signs available that said, "This is what an atheist looks like." I joked that the sign would be a good retirement plan. All I would need to do it carry it in the student drop-off line one morning and the enrollment in my school would plummet. There is serious prejudice against atheists.

There are so many confounding issues surrounding the question of if and why there may be higher suicide rates among atheists, that I imagine it would be very hard to tease out the actual causes. I'm still not convinced that 1) there IS a higher rate, and 2) atheism is the cause.

Well, since it is Resurrection Sunday, I would have to say that the empty tomb is what makes Christianity different from all other religions.  Allah has no son, so that is not the same God as the God of Israel which both Christians and Jews worship. The other religions do have an interesting common origin which Alexander Hislop detailed in his book, The Two Babylons. But the risen Saviour is what makes Christianity different from all other religions. He rose from the dead and that is celebrated worldwide on this very day today.

Mithra, who predated Christ was also said to have died and arisen three days later from the tomb. In fact, the Christ story has remarkable parallels to Mithra. Mithra came first, though. Here are some of the myths about Mithra:

        Was born of a virgin on December 25th, in a cave, attended by shepherds
        Was considered a great traveling teacher and master
        Had 12 companions or disciples
        Promised his followers immortality
        Performed miracles
        Sacrificed himself for world peace
        Was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again
        Was celebrated each year at the time of His resurrection
        Was called “the Good Shepherd”
        Was identified with both the Lamb and the Lion
        Was considered to be the “Way, the Truth and the Light,” and the “Logos,” “Redeemer,” “Savior” and “Messiah.”
        Celebrated Sunday as His sacred day (also known as the “Lord’s Day,”)
        Celebrated a Eucharist or “Lord’s Supper”

Much of the written information about Mithra was systematically destroyed in the years about 100 - 400 CE, during the rise of Christianity.

Aleta

[Hemodoc]

Dear Aleta,

First, there is a definite statistical correlation between atheism and suicide. Correlations do not clarify the relationships of causation, only that there is an association. I would venture that you cannot reasonably deny this associations seen over and over again over decades of studies. But that is your right to do so if you choose.

Secondly, thank for for clarifying that Jesus is just a Myth based on a pagan god. That comes up just about ever year at this time. Lot's of good websites dispelling the myth that Jesus is simply a Christian Mithra. Here is one site that does a pretty good job of deflating that propaganda seen quite often.

http://pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/is-jesus-simply-a-retelling-of-the-mithras-mythology/

If you really want a serious study about Jesus and Bible prophecies hundreds and thousands of years before He died on the cross, I would be more than happy to do so. I did just that with my wife earlier today. There was a record written about Jesus in incredible detail before He ever walked the earth.  And since when does the Bible state that Jesus was born on December 25th. There are several pagan stories of deities and celebrations on that date. If you study the story of Christmas, those origins of the Christmas celebration become quite evident as to where that comes from, but it is not from the Bible.

In any case, off to get my little grandchild who is the joy of my life. Yes, a legacy as well.

[okarol]

I still have no idea who this member is.  When did this happen? 

It was Henry P Snicklesnorter.  He was so appalled at the way Rerun derided Obsidian after one of Obsidian's posts and the way Rerun behaved afterwards.

Henry P was one of the most helpful, upbeat and informative posters this site had.  It was sad that he deleted all his posts, but he did not feel he wanted to continue here.

I no longer feel that it a safe place to post either, and I have changed my avatar to the one that the moderators changed Henry P's avatar to.

Just to clarify, we don't remove posts and we do not change people's avatars or their profiles. The only exception is changing their status when they spam the forum, then they are banned.
Henry P Snicklesnorter removed all of his posts without contacting an admin for help or support. When I wrote to him to inquire I got this explanation in return. He felt it was okay to punish us all, and I never got a chance to try and mediate. It's very unfortunate. In 8 years since this forum was created, we never had such an incident.
okarol/admin


 Sent to: okarol on: October 23, 2013, 11:09:09 PM »

Quote from: okarol on October 23, 2013, 10:58:51 AM
Hi Henry P Snicklesnorter,
Is there a reason you're deleting so many of your posts?
We allow editing so people can correct/change their posts but deleting them creates gaps and confusion in threads.
Please let me know.
Thank you,
Karol

Dear Karol,
I removed my posts as a tangible means of expressing my disgust with Rerun's treatment of Obsidianom, particularly as she is a moderator. I determined that this was not a place to which I would want to be seen as a contributor.


I wish you and your family well.


Henry P

[cassandra]

First, there is a definite statistical correlation between atheism and suicide. Correlations do not clarify the relationships of causation, only that there is an association. I would venture that you cannot reasonably deny this associations seen over and over again over decades of studies. But that is your right to do so if you choose.

As the WHO states clearly: non atheist societies have numerous reasons, and ways to not publish, or hide figures of suicides.
That's not a choice, merely a fact.

Cas