Can any patient/tech solve this mystery?

[sickofbeingsick]

This happened to me a few years back but I've always wondered about it, not to mention it still kind of freaks me out. It was my second year on  the dialysis machine, and I only gained one kilo. 2 hours into my treatment, I got sick as dog--very nauseous and tired. I asked to be taken off and when I weighed myself I had 3 kilos on me. THE MACHINE ACTUALLY PUT 2 KILOS OF FLUID ON ME! Before I got on, I did notice the saline bag looked odd. It was very bloated and looked like it would burst open any minute. Anyway, I was still peeing a good bit at the time so I got rid of most of the fluid. My question is does anybody out there know how the machine could put fluid ON you? Thanks

[BigSky]

More likely the scale was off on your initial weigh in.

To put 2 kilos extra one you would have needed 2 bags of saline added to you.

[boxman55]

For me they add a half of kilo to be taken off because of the fluid I get during treatment. So I guess if I went off early I would be up more then when I started at least a little...Boxman

[sickofbeingsick]

More likely the scale was off on your initial weigh in.

To put 2 kilos extra one you would have needed 2 bags of saline added to you.

No, the scale was dead on.

[BigSky]

Its a closed system.

The only way (excluding eating and drinking anything during the run) to get 2 additional kilos in weight would to be have had 2 bags of saline given to you during treatment.  (1.4 bags excluding rinse back)

[cookie2008]

could it been possible they did not clamp off the saline line and when tha bag was empty thay put up a new bag.

[sickofbeingsick]

could it been possible they did not clamp off the saline line and when tha bag was empty thay put up a new bag.

The saline line was clamped as well. I've also seen people sit on the machine for hours with the UF on and the machine doesn't take off a drop a fluid....?

[sickofbeingsick]

Its a closed system.

The only way (excluding eating and drinking anything during the run) to get 2 additional kilos in weight would to be have had 2 bags of saline given to you during treatment.  (1.4 bags excluding rinse back)

Big Sky--It's NOT that simple. Nothing about dialysis is. Machines can be defective, techs can make mistakes. Like I said, I've also seen patients sit there for hours and not take off a drop of fluid but the machine said it DID.

[flip]

sounds like somebody forgot to turn on the UF. I've seen it happen several times

[Ang]

human  error  or  my  favourite  incompetence

[BigSky]

Its a closed system.

The only way (excluding eating and drinking anything during the run) to get 2 additional kilos in weight would to be have had 2 bags of saline given to you during treatment.  (1.4 bags excluding rinse back)

Big Sky--It's NOT that simple. Nothing about dialysis is. Machines can be defective, techs can make mistakes. Like I said, I've also seen patients sit there for hours and not take off a drop of fluid but the machine said it DID.

Sorry but it is that simple.

Even if the machine is defective it would not add fluid back to you.  That is not how they work.  There is a minimum amount of fluid that most machines must be set at in order need for them to even dialyze.
As to machines saying they took fluid off and not doing it.   The calibration can be off and more or less fluid may come off despite what the machine may say came off. 
However the machine itself does not add fluid back.

[flip]

Actually, I've gained weight many times on dialysis. I hook straight up so I get saline as soon as the blood flows. If you have to get off to go to the bathroom, there is another saline rinse. I usually drink a can of Sprite (plus ice) with my lunch. Plus the saline rinse at the end. The nurse should take all of this into consideration when setting the UF profile.

[Mercurial]

This happened to me a few years back but I've always wondered about it, not to mention it still kind of freaks me out. It was my second year on  the dialysis machine, and I only gained one kilo. 2 hours into my treatment, I got sick as dog--very nauseous and tired. I asked to be taken off and when I weighed myself I had 3 kilos on me. THE MACHINE ACTUALLY PUT 2 KILOS OF FLUID ON ME! Before I got on, I did notice the saline bag looked odd. It was very bloated and looked like it would burst open any minute. Anyway, I was still peeing a good bit at the time so I got rid of most of the fluid. My question is does anybody out there know how the machine could put fluid ON you? Thanks

Sorry to anyone who says that it's impossible:  You're completely wrong, this can happen.

I know this because it happened to me about 12 years ago.  The system is *not* closed--the dialysate has to flow around the microfibers in the dialyzer...  The outflow valve jammed and the fluid crossed the barrier adding 20 kg to me.  If it had happened to anyone else on the floor, that person would be dead--I survived it because I was young and in extremely good shape.  As it was, I had to be hyper-dialyzed until 3 am.  The resulting migraine I got the next morning made me late to my second day of work at a 50K a year job, where I was then fired under the pretext that I was unreliable, no matter the reason.

And yes, the saline bag was completely bloated...

There's a couple nurses still around from the time that happened to me and I'll pick their brains tomorrow for specifics on this kind of machine malfunction.  The machine manufacturer  (I don't think it was a Fresenius machine) claimed that it had never happened before.

[sickofbeingsick]

This happened to me a few years back but I've always wondered about it, not to mention it still kind of freaks me out. It was my second year on  the dialysis machine, and I only gained one kilo. 2 hours into my treatment, I got sick as dog--very nauseous and tired. I asked to be taken off and when I weighed myself I had 3 kilos on me. THE MACHINE ACTUALLY PUT 2 KILOS OF FLUID ON ME! Before I got on, I did notice the saline bag looked odd. It was very bloated and looked like it would burst open any minute. Anyway, I was still peeing a good bit at the time so I got rid of most of the fluid. My question is does anybody out there know how the machine could put fluid ON you? Thanks

Sorry to anyone who says that it's impossible:  You're completely wrong, this can happen.

I know this because it happened to me about 12 years ago.  The system is *not* closed--the dialysate has to flow around the microfibers in the dialyzer...  The outflow valve jammed and the fluid crossed the barrier adding 20 kg to me.  If it had happened to anyone else on the floor, that person would be dead--I survived it because I was young and in extremely good shape.  As it was, I had to be hyper-dialyzed until 3 am.  The resulting migraine I got the next morning made me late to my second day of work at a 50K a year job, where I was then fired under the pretext that I was unreliable, no matter the reason.

And yes, the saline bag was completely bloated...

There's a couple nurses still around from the time that happened to me and I'll pick their brains tomorrow for specifics on this kind of machine malfunction.  The machine manufacturer  (I don't think it was a Fresenius machine) claimed that it had never happened before.

MERCURIAL--THANK YOU!! Nobody seems to understand what I'm saying here. The machine DID PUT FLUID ON ME. The saline line was CLAMPED. The scale was CORRECT at pre-dialysis weigh-in. I did NOT eat or drink anything on the machine. I was still producing a good bit of urine then and the most I came in with was .5 to 1.0 every treatment. A MACHINE IS JUST THAT--A MACHINE AND MACHINES CAN BE DEFECTIVE. Just because YOU can't fathom how it can happen doesn't mean it CAN'T.

[Hawkeye]

Being a Biomed Tech I can tell you for certain that it is possible to gain fluid from the machine.  There are several things that could cause it.  Usually though it is due to a scale issue not the machine.  If it's a machine issue though it will be something to do with the UF pump.  A more likely candidate would be the dialyzer itself or even the lines. Since they are attached to the machine it's usually called a machine problem even though the machine is working properly there was just a manufacturing problem with the single use items.

[BigSky]

Sorry to anyone who says that it's impossible:  You're completely wrong, this can happen.

I know this because it happened to me about 12 years ago.  The system is *not* closed--the dialysate has to flow around the microfibers in the dialyzer...  The outflow valve jammed and the fluid crossed the barrier adding 20 kg to me.  If it had happened to anyone else on the floor, that person would be dead--I survived it because I was young and in extremely good shape.  As it was, I had to be hyper-dialyzed until 3 am.  The resulting migraine I got the next morning made me late to my second day of work at a 50K a year job, where I was then fired under the pretext that I was unreliable, no matter the reason.

And yes, the saline bag was completely bloated...

So you had 44 pounds of fluid added back to you in the run(4 hours?) and it didnt dilute your blood and kill you?

[Mercurial]

Sorry to anyone who says that it's impossible:  You're completely wrong, this can happen.

I know this because it happened to me about 12 years ago.  The system is *not* closed--the dialysate has to flow around the microfibers in the dialyzer...  The outflow valve jammed and the fluid crossed the barrier adding 20 kg to me.  If it had happened to anyone else on the floor, that person would be dead--I survived it because I was young and in extremely good shape.  As it was, I had to be hyper-dialyzed until 3 am.  The resulting migraine I got the next morning made me late to my second day of work at a 50K a year job, where I was then fired under the pretext that I was unreliable, no matter the reason.

And yes, the saline bag was completely bloated...

So you had 44 pounds of fluid added back to you in the run(4 hours?) and it didnt dilute your blood and kill you?

Yes.  I couldn't stand up or really move much at all.  The most concrete memory of that is looking down at my hands and not recognizing them as mine because there was so much edema.  I'm down to five or six of my nine lives...

[Mercurial]

The two nurses most likely to remember that incident weren't there today, so I still have no technical information...  One of them did say that more places in the lines are clamped now than they were ten years ago and could see how a valve controlling the dialysate could turn into that kind of problem.