Vegan, Raw, and "Fruitarian" diets

[MrNaturalAZ]

I've recently been researching Vegan diets, in particular raw Fruitarian (mostly fruits and succulent "vegetables" (most of which are actually fruits - think tomato, squash, cucumber)). I have read that some studies indicate reducing animal protein intake may be better for the kidneys and help preserve my remaining function. While my kidneys aren't the only reason I'm considering going vegan, any benefit they receive would be welcome. OTOH, I want to be aware of any potential danger I might be exposing them to.

I'd like to hear from anyone who is currently on, or has tried, any vegan diet, either pre-dialysis (where I am now) or on dialysis (where I imagine I will eventually be). Particular concerns I can think of are...

• Potassium - Bananas seem to be a staple of the fruitarian diet - will that be a problem? How about tomatoes?
• Other nutrients and/or minerals (calcium?) - what else should I be mindful of getting too much or too little of?
• Protein - should not be an issue pre-dialysis, but if/when I go on dialysis, will I struggle to get enough protein?
• Fluids - between the water already in fruit, plus drinking water or other beverages, it seems from my research it is a high fluid intake diet. Should I be concerned about that, either pre- or on dialysis?

And, of course anything I might not have even thought about. I'm the newbie, you guys are the experienced veterans 

[kickingandscreaming]

Just in general, the fruitarian diet is very weak on protein.  Granted, keeping your protein down pre-dialysis may help prolong your kidney's descent, but it can also cause malnutrition.  After dialysis, you WILL struggle to maintain your albumin levels without a more "solid" source of protein.  Just anecdotally, everyone I have ever known who was a fruitarian was a total flake and spaceshot-- not because of their choice to be fruitarian, but because it is a very ungrounding food choice.  The fact that you are in AZ (a warmer climate) should help.  It's definitely NOT a diet I recommend for people in more temperate areas-- unless you like to be cold all the time.  A good old ovo-lacto vegetarian diet is more balanced and better overall than an exteme fruitarian diet.

[cassandra]

And don't forget a good chance of getting a vitamin b12 deficiency.

 

[Fabkiwi06]

As someone who has been vegan in the past (preESRD), I'd proceed with caution. You REALLY have to know your nutrition and personal limits, especially if you're also dealing with additional health situations, like ESRD (or whatever stage you're at).

I'd strongly advice against going completely raw or all fruit because it's not a sustainable way to live. It's very difficult to get all the amino acids needed to make a complete protein, and the sheer AMOUNT you have to eat to get enough calories is ridiculous. Then, you have the issues with high fruit consumption also meaning a high sugar consumption... it's great for a short time and then it starts to wreck havoc. It's pretty much impossible to get enough protein, and even if you're trying to go low protein you're not going to get the right combinations of amino acids. Adding in things like beans, rice, and quinoa makes a huge difference. And, if you're not eating meat, the phosphorus content of those things is slightly less of a concern since you're not getting additional phosphorus from animal protein.

You will need to find some good supplements - I believe they make multivitamins catered for vegan diets now. B12 is certainly one you'll need to add in. Nutritional Yeast will become a very good friend.

Your water intake would probably depend on how your function is now. I never had any issues with fluid buildup, and I still have a pretty good output. Obviously if you start swelling, stop drinking.

The other thing I would be very wary about is that the vegan community online tends to also be the same groups of people who believe any and every pseudoscience and anti-conventional medical theory on the internet. I'm in no way knocking homeopathic remedies, but we are in a situation where we're being kept alive thanks to that "evil modern medicine", so I'm kinda partial to it. I've seriously had vegans tell me I can cure my renal failure by doing a fast and loading up on water (NOPE!). So, as you're doing your research, keep that skeptical hat tight on your head and make sure whatever claims they're using this week has some actual research behind it, and not just what Daisy at the FruitFest heard from the guy with the beard.

You can do it, but a lot of it is going to hinge on where your health is (and how quick of a decline you're in), and how vigilant you're going to be with keeping on making sure you're getting enough of all the vitamins you need. Before you completely commit, talk it over with your doctors and try it for a week or two. Bonus points if you're able to coordinate before and after lab work. See how it makes you feel, how your energy levels are, how hungry you end up shortly after each meal - major problem for me, and go from there.

Personally, I have better luck being mostly vegetarian with the occasional fish/chicken. I believe there are a few other members who are also vegetarian and have had good luck with that. If nothing else, having a few days a week where you strive to eat more than your 5 a day isn't a bad thing!

[MrNaturalAZ]

Thanks for the responses so far. I guess such a radical change in my diet is probably not a good thing at this point. A better plan may be to continue as an omnivore, but shifting the balance to be less carnivorous and more frugivorous/herbivorous. With a careful eye on my labs as I go.

(responding to specific comments below...)

Just in general, the fruitarian diet is very weak on protein.  Granted, keeping your protein down pre-dialysis may help prolong your kidney's descent, but it can also cause malnutrition.  After dialysis, you WILL struggle to maintain your albumin levels without a more "solid" source of protein. 

I suppose I could supplement protein, but then it wouldn't be fruitarian anymore, LOL. Still could be vegan or vegitarian tho.

 

The fact that you are in AZ (a warmer climate) should help.  It's definitely NOT a diet I recommend for people in more temperate areas-- unless you like to be cold all the time.  A good old ovo-lacto vegetarian diet is more balanced and better overall than an exteme fruitarian diet.

Interesting. I wonder why that is? I'd think the high sugar content would result in an increased metabolism, and therefore feeling warmer rather than colder.

And don't forget a good chance of getting a vitamin b12 deficiency.

I already take B12 supplements by my own choice. I find they help my energy levels.

As someone who has been vegan in the past (preESRD), I'd proceed with caution. You REALLY have to know your nutrition and personal limits, especially if you're also dealing with additional health situations, like ESRD (or whatever stage you're at).

Stage 4; eGFR in the low 20's

I'd strongly advice against going completely raw or all fruit because it's not a sustainable way to live. It's very difficult to get all the amino acids needed to make a complete protein, and the sheer AMOUNT you have to eat to get enough calories is ridiculous. ... Adding in things like beans, rice, and quinoa makes a huge difference. And, if you're not eating meat, the phosphorus content of those things is slightly less of a concern since you're not getting additional phosphorus from animal protein.

Good points

Your water intake would probably depend on how your function is now. I never had any issues with fluid buildup, and I still have a pretty good output. Obviously if you start swelling, stop drinking.

Well, my face seems always puffy anymore, especially around my eyes, and my ankles and feet seem to be swollen more often than not. Seems to make no difference if I'm drinking lots or if I'm restricting fluids to the point of borderline dehydration. What *does* seem to affect the edema is my salt intake. If I eat too much salt, my feet will swell more - sometimes within an hour!

The other thing I would be very wary about is that the vegan community online tends to also be the same groups of people who believe any and every pseudoscience and anti-conventional medical theory on the internet. I'm in no way knocking homeopathic remedies, but we are in a situation where we're being kept alive thanks to that "evil modern medicine", so I'm kinda partial to it. I've seriously had vegans tell me I can cure my renal failure by doing a fast and loading up on water (NOPE!). So, as you're doing your research, keep that skeptical hat tight on your head and make sure whatever claims they're using this week has some actual research behind it, and not just what Daisy at the FruitFest heard from the guy with the beard.

I like to take inspiration from such sources, but take most anecdotal "evidence" for what it is, and do my homework as far as the science goes. I also try to pay extra attention to my body if I go experimenting with dietary changes.

Personally, I have better luck being mostly vegetarian with the occasional fish/chicken. I believe there are a few other members who are also vegetarian and have had good luck with that. If nothing else, having a few days a week where you strive to eat more than your 5 a day isn't a bad thing!

That sounds like the best plan. Just try to up my fruit and veggie intake, and try to reduce animal proteins (and replace with veggie sources).

[Fabkiwi06]

Being at stage 4, you definitely have more flexibility since you don't need as much protein as someone on dialysis. Plant based protein is recommended since it has a lot of other "good stuff" in it as well.

If I was in your shoes, I would start slowly. Try being a part-time vegan. 2 or 3 days a week where you really focus on limiting the animal products and focusing on plant-based foods. Beans and Rice is a great complete protein when eaten together. I remember I ate a LOT of tacos as a vegan. Mmmm... tacos.

It's certainly not impossible, but it does require a lot of research and planning. I know that I had a harder time with that than I expected - sometimes you just want to eat a dang turkey sandwich instead of trying to piece together a complete meal.

[Lis]

Being at stage 4, you definitely have more flexibility since you don't need as much protein as someone on dialysis. Plant based protein is recommended since it has a lot of other "good stuff" in it as well.

If I was in your shoes, I would start slowly. Try being a part-time vegan. 2 or 3 days a week where you really focus on limiting the animal products and focusing on plant-based foods. Beans and Rice is a great complete protein when eaten together. I remember I ate a LOT of tacos as a vegan. Mmmm... tacos.

It's certainly not impossible, but it does require a lot of research and planning. I know that I had a harder time with that than I expected - sometimes you just want to eat a dang turkey sandwich instead of trying to piece together a complete meal.

Boy, can I relate. I was vegan/vegetarian before going on dialysis. I think it prolonged the health of my kidneys. But now that I'm on dialysis, what is my favorite go to lunch?  A yummy dang turkey sandwich, LOL.  So much easier to plan and cook being an omnivore. 

[Charlie B53]

I like the idea of a very careful and gradual approach to changing your diet.

You do need to learn to watch the potassium and phosporus amounts of the increases.  Many beans can be quite high and can be plalcing more strain on your already taxed kidneys.  Ask you Neph and Renal Dietician if you need to think about adding binders to your diet with some of those foods.

Google Renal Friendly Diet and it should point out many of those foods.  You can still eat them, just in moderation without binders.

Otherwise, eat on.  Sounds like a good plan.