Saunas as co-treatment

[Deanne]

Does anyone know if saunas have been studied as a co-treatment? Sweat elminates water, salts and waste products. I know it can't replace dialysis, but for some (like me, who aren't yet on dialysis), it seems like it could be helpful to reduce potassium & such. Darnit -- I just wanna drink milk again!

Deanne

[stauffenberg]

The skin has been called "a second kidney" because, as you point out, it does have the characteristic of a filter removing toxins from the blood.  In the days before dialysis was available, and even today in some third world countries, physicians can still observe the phenomenon of 'uremic frost,' in which the skin becomes covered with a thin, whitish layer of impurities filtered out of the blood by the skin after the kidneys have shut down.  However, this is only after a long period without dialysis, and it is usually a sign of impending death, since the skin is not as good at removing toxins as the kidneys are!

Some patients have tried saunas as a way to take off excess fluid more gradually than hemodialysis allows, thus avoiding hypotensive collapse during dialysis.  However, any procedure that removes fluids will also increase thirst and reduce blood pressure, so saunas are not all that effective, because if you have the sauna treatment too soon before dialysis, you will drink back the fluid you have lost, or if you have it just before dialysis, you will make your blood pressure prone to collapse.  I have a sauna room in my house and while I was  on dialysis I used it for fluid removal, but found it was not very effective, for the reasons mentioned.

[angieskidney]

Does anyone know if saunas have been studied as a co-treatment? Sweat elminates water, salts and waste products. I know it can't replace dialysis, but for some (like me, who aren't yet on dialysis), it seems like it could be helpful to reduce potassium & such. Darnit -- I just wanna drink milk again!

Deanne

Man I wish I had access to one as I AM on dialysis but always am thirsty! I am with you Deanne! I want to drink Milk again! It is my favourite thing in the whole world! lol 

[bluedove57]

  I Deanne, I'm one who likes my fluids and finds this the hardest part of being a dialysis patient. Because I can't have much of it I want it. I miss my chocolate milk and my chocolate shakes. They were my favorites. I cheat every now and then but take binders with it. I miss being normal. Oh well, life goes on. 

[Triker]

The skin has been called "a second kidney" because, as you point out, it does have the characteristic of a filter removing toxins from the blood.  In the days before dialysis was available, and even today in some third world countries, physicians can still observe the phenomenon of 'uremic frost,' in which the skin becomes covered with a thin, whitish layer of impurities filtered out of the blood by the skin after the kidneys have shut down.  However, this is only after a long period without dialysis, and it is usually a sign of impending death, since the skin is not as good at removing toxins as the kidneys are!

Some patients have tried saunas as a way to take off excess fluid more gradually than hemodialysis allows, thus avoiding hypotensive collapse during dialysis.  However, any procedure that removes fluids will also increase thirst and reduce blood pressure, so saunas are not all that effective, because if you have the sauna treatment too soon before dialysis, you will drink back the fluid you have lost, or if you have it just before dialysis, you will make your blood pressure prone to collapse.  I have a sauna room in my house and while I was  on dialysis I used it for fluid removal, but found it was not very effective, for the reasons mentioned.

Shucks, I was wanting to find a sauna, so I could cheat a little and have a big tall glass of iced tea, or even ice water. Just anything, cold and refreshing.! I did notice that in the heat of summer I was able to get away with a little more fluid. I wear black caps often in the summer while riding my motorcycle. I get white stains on my black caps and shirts. I always thought it was salt.

[Rerun]

I had wondered about this myself and really thought I had invented a new medical miracle for "Skin Dialysis".  My Nephrologist told me that was stupid.  (Then I knew I was really on to something!)   

Very nice explanation Stauffenburg.   

[RichardMEL]

A guy in my unit uses the sauna to sweat out excess fluid.. he went from 5 over one session to 1.5 over the next....

hmm I have a sauna in my building!!

[BigSky]

Actually such stuff will help.

Uremic frost is where urea and other nitrogenous waste products accumulate in the sweat glands and when one sweats they crystallize after evaporation upon the skin.

Normally sweating doesn't release a whole lot of toxins but research has shown that dialysis patients tend to release much more toxins over healthy people when they sweat. 

If one works up a pretty good sweat during exercise to soak the clothes they may notice a ammonia smell to it.

I lose excess fluid through exercise and I am not more thirsty than normal, so I am not sure why being in a sauna would be any different.  However all people are different and it may affect them differently. 

I wouldnt suggest going into a sauna trying to lose 5 kilos but if one was to hit the sauna the next day after dialysis and was only trying to lose a kilo or so then I personally would not see much of a problem with bp.

[Rerun]

Actually such stuff will help.

Uremic frost is where urea and other nitrogenous waste products accumulate in the sweat glands and when one sweats they crystallize after evaporation upon the skin.

Normally sweating doesn't release a whole lot of toxins but research has shown that dialysis patients tend to release much more toxins over healthy people when they sweat. 

If one works up a pretty good sweat during exercise to soak the clothes they may notice a ammonia smell to it.

I lose excess fluid through exercise and I am not more thirsty than normal, so I am not sure why being in a sauna would be any different.  However all people are different and it may affect them differently. 

I wouldnt suggest going into a sauna trying to lose 5 kilos but if one was to hit the sauna the next day after dialysis and was only trying to lose a kilo or so then I personally would not see much of a problem with bp.

Big Sky - You are so smart!  Are you a doctor in disguise?   

[okarol]

This is from: http://www.finlandiasauna.com/sauna-history.html
Helps with kidney function
Sauna bathing can augment proper kidney function. Perspiration through the skin’s pores excretes a good amount of the body’s
wastes and reduces the load put on the kidneys. Sweating is such an effective detoxifier that some doctors recommend Sauna
usage to supplement persons on kidney dialysis.


http://www.emedicine.com/derm/topic550.htm
Re: Dermatologic Manifestations of Renal Disease
Therapeutic options, which are inconsistently helpful, include emollients to alleviate xerosis, augmentation of dialysis efficacy,
normalization of serum calcium and phosphate levels, and parathyroidectomy. For some, sedating antihistamines and sauna therapy
may provide temporary relief.

[BigSky]

Big Sky - You are so smart!  Are you a doctor in disguise?   

Just waaaaay too much time spend reading stuff on the internet. Also I spend my time on dialysis reading the Nephrology Nursing books up at the unit.     Sad isn't it.

[angieskidney]

Big Sky - You are so smart!  Are you a doctor in disguise?   

Just waaaaay too much time spend reading stuff on the internet. Also I spend my time on dialysis reading the Nephrology Nursing books up at the unit.     Sad isn't it.

lol that is usually ALL the have tho isn't that right? lol you get bored enough you read just about ANYTHING I have read them as well! 

[PaulBC]

I noticed this ancient thread, and it covered some of my questions about the usefulness of sweating to augment dialysis. This seems like a useful thing to keep in mind, not as a substitute for dialysis, but just to have a reserve tool for fluid and electrolyte management. A sauna might not be the best approach (for reasons noted above, especially if it leads to more thirst) but it seems like a good reason to stay active as much as possible. I remember that we received an emergency plan for what to do if dialysis is unavailable (e.g. in a power outage) and it was basically limit consumption to one little bottle of water and a few snacks. That may be fine, but if it helps to sweat, shouldn't that also be part of the recommendation?

[bliss85]

lol 5 kilos....good luck...ill tell you right now you aren't going to lose 5 kilos in the sauna unless you sit in there for like 15 hours...most people on dialysis cant even take off 5 kilos of fluid through the machine. average person sweats out 500 ml of sweat in a day and if you are super active maybe 2 or 3 times that max...i would not suggest calling this co treatment by any means other then maybe adding an extra glass of fluid a day. But everyone may do what they wish.

[raymond keller]

I am a medical student researcher looking into sauna therapy to help treat kidney disease and, to a lesser extent, hypertension. I am reluctant to offer medical advice. However, I would be happy to talk privately about my massive literature review and currently funded research toward the potential beneficial effects of sauna in the dialysis population.

Raymond Keller
207-929-0576

[mysticnight]

Yup, this is an old thread, but a really interesting one. I read several articles about dialysis in India, where they use ones skin as the dialysis membrane, as you are discussing. The person lies in a tub of water and specific herbs and it pulls the toxins out. There are also many ayurvedic herbs which are said to heal the kidneys.

[kristina]

Yup, this is an old thread, but a really interesting one. I read several articles about dialysis in India, where they use ones skin as the dialysis membrane, as you are discussing. The person lies in a tub of water and specific herbs and it pulls the toxins out. There are also many ayurvedic herbs which are said to heal the kidneys.

Hello mysticnight,
Could you please tell me what sort of herbs are being used to pull out toxins?
... And what sort of herbs are being used to assist the kidneys generally?
... Or are the same herbs used for both purposes?
Thanks from Kristina.

[Jean]

Since we are,many of us, in different countries, I have to ask this question. When you are using the term sauna, are you referring to the hot water filled type of small pool? To us in USA, or california, a Sauna is a closet like area where there are stones and you throw water on them, to produce steam ( and sweat).  Also, with high BP, some of these are off limits.  I would research this myself, but as soon as I read something it is in one ear and out the other. I do have brain fog.

[Sugarlump]

When I holidayed in Italy (in high temps) I felt wonderful. Fluid increase was low and I drunk more.
Dialysis in Italy is good and easy to obtain to suit.
The heat sure worked for me...not too keen on saunas as they make me feel claustrophobic, so do steam rooms...

Maybe I should move to Italy!!!!

[Alex C.]

I remember a similar discussion on a cyclist webpage a few years back-somebody extolling saunas as a way to lose water weight. The reality is that not a lot of water actually goes through your skin, so you wouldn't be able to sweat out a lot of toxins.