Excellent point, Hemodoc!Unfortunately, the folks at NxStage seem to be promoting 2.5 hours per treatment, five times a week.Perhaps not such a good idea after all.
My neph once told me i was the sort of person that would benefit more from 2 hours per day every day , than the normal 4 hours every other day. I often wonder does the benefit you get from hemo depend on the type you are , like the difference in transporters on pd ?
Quote from: KICKSTART on January 05, 2011, 03:22:23 PMMy neph once told me i was the sort of person that would benefit more from 2 hours per day every day , than the normal 4 hours every other day. I often wonder does the benefit you get from hemo depend on the type you are , like the difference in transporters on pd ?Not sure what he would base that statement on since all patients will benefit from more frequent and longer duration dialysis. Unfortunately, there is not enough attention paid to dialysis during most nephrology training programs. On the other hand, the FHN was 2 hours, 6 times a week vs 4 hours 3 times a week, same amount of time on the machine, but outcomes were much better with higher frequency. Both frequency and duration matters clinically.
That's Scribner's hemodialysis product in action. The first hour of dialysis is the most efficient, it is when the solute concentrations are highest in the blood thus with a steeper gradiant more solutes cross the semipermeable membrane and into the dialysate.HDP 3dx/week 4hr/dx = 9 x 4 = 36HDP 6dx/week 2hr/dx = 36 x 2 = 72
Quote from: Bill Peckham on January 05, 2011, 03:33:36 PMThat's Scribner's hemodialysis product in action. The first hour of dialysis is the most efficient, it is when the solute concentrations are highest in the blood thus with a steeper gradiant more solutes cross the semipermeable membrane and into the dialysate.HDP 3dx/week 4hr/dx = 9 x 4 = 36HDP 6dx/week 2hr/dx = 36 x 2 = 72That's true for most small weight solutes such as urea, but phosphorus as well as the larger middle weight solutes are time dependent.
Quote from: Zach on January 05, 2011, 05:54:12 PMQuote from: Bill Peckham on January 05, 2011, 03:33:36 PMThat's Scribner's hemodialysis product in action. The first hour of dialysis is the most efficient, it is when the solute concentrations are highest in the blood thus with a steeper gradiant more solutes cross the semipermeable membrane and into the dialysate.HDP 3dx/week 4hr/dx = 9 x 4 = 36HDP 6dx/week 2hr/dx = 36 x 2 = 72That's true for most small weight solutes such as urea, but phosphorus as well as the larger middle weight solutes are time dependent. True enough, and that is in many ways part of the point of the article in question as the basis of this post. More frequent and longer duration is where it is at just as Dr. Scribner noted. If anyone has not yet looked at his Hemodialysis Product paper, I did link to it in my post, but here is the link for IHD.http://www.therenalnetwork.org/qi/resources/HDP.pdf
Nocturnal is the gold standard of dialysis!!! Hubby tried short daily for a while. he went back to nocturnal because his phos and potassium was not so well controlled with short daily - he still had to take binders. He also didn't like giving up a big part of his day for dialysis. At least when he hooks up night time he can sleep. His labs are really good with the nocturnal
Does nocturnal dialysis result in shorter fistula life? Things to worry about if you plan on doing this decades.
Quote from: del on January 05, 2011, 05:36:48 PMNocturnal is the gold standard of dialysis!!! Hubby tried short daily for a while. he went back to nocturnal because his phos and potassium was not so well controlled with short daily - he still had to take binders. He also didn't like giving up a big part of his day for dialysis. At least when he hooks up night time he can sleep. His labs are really good with the nocturnalI forget - is he doing 3 nights a week?
Quote from: okarol on January 11, 2011, 06:08:01 PMQuote from: del on January 05, 2011, 05:36:48 PMNocturnal is the gold standard of dialysis!!! Hubby tried short daily for a while. he went back to nocturnal because his phos and potassium was not so well controlled with short daily - he still had to take binders. He also didn't like giving up a big part of his day for dialysis. At least when he hooks up night time he can sleep. His labs are really good with the nocturnalI forget - is he doing 3 nights a week?Hubby does 5 nights a week but rarely takes 2 nights in a row. He had to last week because he had a night off and the next night we had a problem with the machine. He usually does 3 nights, 1 off, 2 nights , 1 off then back to 3 nights.
There is a trend to more frequent infections.
Quote from: Hemodoc on January 11, 2011, 06:44:23 PMThere is a trend to more frequent infections.Thank you for sharing your technique, Hemodoc; I am always looking for ways to improve/tighten up my own technique. I would just like to add - if I may - that a face mask is also an absolute must for buttonholes. In my clinic, the nurses expressed a desire for their buttonhole patients to use face masks, but they did not require it and not everyone used them. I think there is a perception that face masks are only really necessary for catheters but this couldn't be further from the truth.
Quote from: del on January 11, 2011, 07:18:58 PMQuote from: okarol on January 11, 2011, 06:08:01 PMQuote from: del on January 05, 2011, 05:36:48 PMNocturnal is the gold standard of dialysis!!! Hubby tried short daily for a while. he went back to nocturnal because his phos and potassium was not so well controlled with short daily - he still had to take binders. He also didn't like giving up a big part of his day for dialysis. At least when he hooks up night time he can sleep. His labs are really good with the nocturnalWalt does 7 hours a night.I forget - is he doing 3 nights a week?Hubby does 5 nights a week but rarely takes 2 nights in a row. He had to last week because he had a night off and the next night we had a problem with the machine. He usually does 3 nights, 1 off, 2 nights , 1 off then back to 3 nights.Thanks del. I know other patients do in-center nocturnal so its 3 days, but 6 hours, I think. How many hours does Walt do?
Quote from: okarol on January 11, 2011, 06:08:01 PMQuote from: del on January 05, 2011, 05:36:48 PMNocturnal is the gold standard of dialysis!!! Hubby tried short daily for a while. he went back to nocturnal because his phos and potassium was not so well controlled with short daily - he still had to take binders. He also didn't like giving up a big part of his day for dialysis. At least when he hooks up night time he can sleep. His labs are really good with the nocturnalWalt does 7 hours a night.I forget - is he doing 3 nights a week?Hubby does 5 nights a week but rarely takes 2 nights in a row. He had to last week because he had a night off and the next night we had a problem with the machine. He usually does 3 nights, 1 off, 2 nights , 1 off then back to 3 nights.
Quote from: del on January 05, 2011, 05:36:48 PMNocturnal is the gold standard of dialysis!!! Hubby tried short daily for a while. he went back to nocturnal because his phos and potassium was not so well controlled with short daily - he still had to take binders. He also didn't like giving up a big part of his day for dialysis. At least when he hooks up night time he can sleep. His labs are really good with the nocturnalWalt does 7 hours a night.I forget - is he doing 3 nights a week?