I Hate Dialysis Message Board
Dialysis Discussion => Dialysis: General Discussion => Topic started by: kevno on December 26, 2005, 08:09:01 AM
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Just wondering how you feel about the needles on Haemo?
Just can not get the bad memories from when I was a child on Haemo. The Bad experiences with the needles, being held down, given drugs to try to quiet me down.
I know it was in the 70's and things have changed a bit but not that much!
I have seen two doctors and now I am seeing a prof about my needle phobia.
I have been given a few ways to try to calm down before I go on the Machine, going fo a walk, watch tv, music. to try to keep my anxiety down.
Sometimes it works, but I still sometime drop my Blood Pressure, when the Nurse misses with the first attemps.
I suppose after being back on Haemo now for over 5 years I whould get used to it, but it is there, the hate of the needles. Even have nightmares the night before.
I have attach a doc which I have given to all of the nurses on the Unit. I do not know if it as helped me or not. The nurses just comes into the room and puts me on realy quickly, so i now have no time to panic.
Now for the question.
How do you cope with the needles, if you are on haemo.
your hoping for a reply
KEVNO
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That was thoughtful of you to write... what has the reaction been to it?
I had a terrible needle phobia because of childhood vaccinations-- I used to try to run away and was held down, too. Kids in the waiting room could hear me screaming! My parents would always lie that we were going to the park or zoo-- not smart, because after that I never trusted them, and associated the words 'park' and 'zoo' with needles! :(
Anyway, here is what I did to get over my fear of the needles: Before the nurse comes over to put the needles in, I pick up each needle, look at it, and 'invite' it into my arm... I pretend that the needles are alive, and I ask them to go into my arm quickly and correctly. This doesn't help with the pain, but it stops the panic! :)
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If you do it that way, then it doesn't matter who is hooking you up-- if you have already made a 'deal' with the needles that they will go in properly, the worst nurse in the building could hook you up and you won't panic. This way, you transfer the 'responsibility' to the needles, and don't end up hating the nurse.
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I'm not sure if I know of anyone who love's getting those needle's and if they are out there I would like to meet them.....Jamie-G
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They have been telling me that after a while it is not going to hurt. But it still does. I had started taking lidocaine, but after my experience in Barbados where the lidocaine needle hurt so bad, I have been taking the needle without lidocaine.
I do hope I get used to the needle. I also fear when they place it badly and it goes to the other side of my graft :o :o
It usually does not hurt after it is well placed, but once I had pain for the entire 4 hours.
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They told me that BS, too, when I started dialysis... well, I've been on it for 10 years and let me tell you, it still hurts when those needles go in! So don't feel bad that you're not 'getting used to it' quicker-- I don't think you can ever really get 'used to' huge hunks of metal being jammed through your skin! You can get 'used to' the idea that you have to do it, maybe that's what they're talking about.
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I of course hate the needles as well. I in fact even stick my own needles. I never miss or infiltrate and I control the pain. I use the same spots over and over so unless I hit a new spot there is very little pain. Or maybe I am just use to it by now. I have been on for 12+ years straight no transplant. So every other day for 12+ years I get 2 damn needles stuck in my arm. For me it's more emotional pain than physical pain.
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Hi, i needle myself and we are told in australia not to keep using the same spots, does this increase your chance of infection?
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Are you able to use some sort of Anbesol or other mouth number on the needle site to help numb it for just the few minutes before sticking?
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I'm going to have to start using needles this month. I'm not going to use the ELM or EML (whatever) cream because it sounds like a hassle. I'm going to use a numbing shot (lidocain) and take about 16 Diazepam! ;D
But, yes there is a cream that you can put on the site an hour before but then you have to make sure and wash it off really well before cannulation.
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I'm going to use ONE needle on Tuesday. I think I can do ONE. :)
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How did you do with the needle on Tuesday, hope everything went OK for you!
I had a little mishap on tuesday, the needle came out while I was asleep, Blood everywhere.
Yours
Kevno
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Tomorrow is Tuesday in California~ ;D
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::) Got the days mixed up. when you have been on heamo for some time, the days just seem to roll into one. HEAMO DAY! ;)
Kevno
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Seems my life is one big TueThurSat! :-\
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:-\ I think today was tuesday? Thought about you today, this morning RERUN. while I was being needled, everything went OK today. How was your first day for an needle? Hope it was not as bad as you thought.
Kevno
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Seems my life is one big TueThurSat! :-\
This is weird! I told my daughter just a day or so ago that my life seems to revolve around my dialysis. Weekends in my mind are now 2 days without dialysis. Tuesdays and Thursdays are now the days before dialysis.
DIALYSIS HAS TAKEN OVER MY LIFE!!! :'( >:( :'( >:(
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Yep... now your life revolves around other people-- your techs, nurses and doctors!
I'd dearly love to see how many hours of our lives are wasted waiting: In the waiting room before treatment, in the unit waiting to be taped up, waiting to see the doctor, and waiting to be picked up after treatment-- it's no surprise that some patients lose it and become violent!
Of course dialysis is taking over your life-- it's built to do that! Now that you are on it, apparently your time means nothing and can be wasted with no apologies necessary-- after all, you're being kept alive and should be 'grateful!' >:( Hmm... wonder if that's why there's such a high DEATH RATE among patients-- only so much of this BS you can take!
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You really struck a note with that WAITING!!
It does not matter what you do to get on at a certain time. When you come early, you still end up going on at the same time as if you came late.
I miss my catheter days when they just put on the cap and you left. Now there is all this waiting for the bleeding to stop. I need to make another post about this bleeding after dialysis problem.
I was in a car accident on Dec 27 and will not have my new vehicle until about 6 weeks, so it means I have to depend on someone for a ride after dialysis. Bummer!
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The nurse stuck me with the Lidocane needle and that stung. Then he inserted the needle and (I was not watching) then I heard him say "Oh Oh". It puffed up and he had to take the needle out. He said it wasn't ready yet. It is 6 months old! He said to squeeze the stupid BALL and we would try it again in two weeks. I admit I haven't been squeezing the ball!!! But, my fistula is in my upper arm and I don't see how that will work. :P
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Waiting! >:( wish I had a penny for every hour. Now I am a bit sneaky ;D. Get to the Unit for about 7.30am get everything ready, i.e Do BP,WT Get the table ready and the chair, then clear off to the cafe and have coffee. Get back for about 8am usually on for 8.15am. ::) Some of the patients have been on the unit from 6.45am, not for me anymore hanging around waiting for the needles. just want to sit down and get on the Machine. Not to wait to get on the machine. I know if every patient did what I do it whould be chaos! ;D
Sometimes get a bit of a moan off one of the Nurses "Where have you been, we've been waiting"
unfortunately, I do not care anymore, I have done my time waiting. Now I can be waited for.
Kevno
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Sorry to hear you had a neelde blow, I have had quite a lot of them. Have they given you a cream to get the bruising out. It seemed to work for me. About the BALL. Yes it does work squeezing it, don't ask me how it just does. Many patients have not used the ball and the fistula will not develop as quick. As I found out, squeezed the dam ball for about 15mins a day after a couple weeks you could see that the fistula had got bigger.
So at least give it a go Rerun, let me know how you get on.
Kevno
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It was a nightmare day for me today. Three attempts to get one needle in! OUCH! Then the Nurse decided after she had got the needle in. My line was very slow, stop and start Venus pressure 300+. So I was taken off the machine after the Nurse had tried for ten minutes to get the line to work. A TPA lock was put into the line it is a lot stronger than heparin. So it should unblock the line, after I waited 20Min's for it to work. When she tried the needle it had clotted. So that had to come out too. >:( >:( Then she pulled two needles out, in my normal way I said "No Chance, Just One Needle". She seemed to get the needle in OK, but that needle clotted to. So that had to come out. " Third time lucky" Ha! AS IF!! ::)Then I got out of the chair and cleared off for a coffee at the cafe. After about 15Min's later I come back, got a bit of a moan by the nurses. A different nurse had a go to put me on, she got the needle no trouble. She then pulled the TPA lock out, that seemed to have done its job. Venus pressure 120+. I knew it was going to be a bad day today :( On Saturday I smashed my DVD player. Nothing on the TV. Then just to finish the day of the bloody patients in the other room started to sing!! Well they call it singing, it sounded more like they were in pain! ;D
On for 9am usually 7.45am ::) ::)
Kevno
( Do I hate thoses Needles!!!!!!!! >:( ;D )
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Is it supposed to HURT when they take out the needles. They push down really hard and then pull the needle out. It doesn't leave a hole it leaves a cut. SHIT! There is one tech that can get them out without hurting. Plus, I don't think that would be very good for the vein. :( The arterial needle puffed up when they put it in today. So, they left it in and put in another one. So, I had 3 in me today. Then it hurt while she scraped them out of my arm and I was trying to hold 3 spots. Obviously not very well because when I was done, I stood up and the bottom one started spewing blood. I hope my fistula is not clotting. I do not need access problems. >:(
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Is it supposed to HURT when they take out the needles. They push down really hard and then pull the needle out. It doesn't leave a hole it leaves a cut. SHIT! There is one tech that can get them out without hurting. Plus, I don't think that would be very good for the vein. :( The arterial needle puffed up when they put it in today. So, they left it in and put in another one. So, I had 3 in me today. Then it hurt while she scraped them out of my arm and I was trying to hold 3 spots. Obviously not very well because when I was done, I stood up and the bottom one started spewing blood. I hope my fistula is not clotting. I do not need access problems. >:(
You need to do what I do, tell them to NOT push down until the needle is all the way out. Have them place the gauze on top of the site, then have them pull the needle out but do not apply pressure until it is totally out. If they are causing you pain when they are removing the needle they are not removing the needle properly. Plus it is bad for your fistula and will cause more scar tissue over time. Bottomline is make them pull the needles out by YOUR RULES PERIOD.
- Epoman
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Yes definitely dont apply pressure until the needle is out!! Its not hard to do, you just have to be quick about it. Whip it out, and apply pressure immediately.
I have had buttonholes (using the same site each time) for only 8 months, and I can tell you now that I have almost no pain at all.It doesnt even hurt when I put the local in! Once the buttonholes develop, you stick the local needle just down the hole a little bit, then veer off into the side of it and push the local in very slowly. I only use about 0.2ml per site, so its very little. Once you have been doing this for a while the pain is minimal. I have no pain inserting the cannulas, and no pain removing them. Sharps do hurt though, as its hard to localise the entire site. Which is why I definitely would go the buttonhole method. I dont know what the infection risks are, but if you follow all the appropriate cleaning measures you should be fine. I havent had an infection since Ive been doing it. Of course, if you notice any signs of infection...redness....pain, etc....you must seek treatment immediately, and DONT dialyse until you do!!!!
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I thought the WHOLE point of buttonhole technique was "no pain." Why are you using numbing medicine?
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Because you do get some sensation when cannulating. Id rather have none. It doesn't hurt really, but thats my choice. I use so little local that I mostly don't feel it. I have a huge scar as well so I guess if I stick it into scar tissue I cant feel it as much. On occasion, I cant get the blunts in, and when you try to push, it does hurt. So thats another reason lol Its hard to explain, its more like a friction feeling with buttonholes. Where as with sharps, it just plain hurts!
I will probably try not to use it eventually, I dunno. It comes in our pre packed dressing packs, so I figure I may as well use it.
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I plan on learning the button hole technique. I am still new at this. I was on PD for years but since July they have used my permcath for hemo in clinic. But last week they started using my fistula they have been trying to work since the start of this year and are using the 17 ga and are switching to the 15ga this wed (I dialysize m/w/f). I am nervous and since I am in the evening shift (I was on the same shift with Jaime (http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=57) before he died) they say I will have to be switched to the day shift to learn the buttonhole technique since there is no one to teach me at the evenings.
I like learning all I can here because I learn more about what I have been asking for months now more here than anywhere else I have been!! Thank you :)
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Don't jump from 17gu to 15gu. There is also a 16 gu. Use that for awhile.
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I just recently cleared a big hurdle for me. For the last 3 sessions I did not take lidocaine. I find that the lidocaine needle, while it doesn't hurt that much to go in, it stings terribly when the medication goes in. I started with a nurse that I trust to put in right first time. That went well. The next session another nurse did it. Then yesterday, another one did it as well. I think if I tell them what I am expecting, then they do their best not to foul up.
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I had my first needle yesterday..
one needle.. one line
no freezing :o
wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.. ::)
Can't wait to get rid of the cath. 8)
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Great, susi q! You go, girl! Hope it continues to go well with you.
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I hate the needles when they hit a nerve in the arm, other wise they are NOT supposed to hurt once they are in the fistula or graft. Other wise I would have to run away every time they stick me!
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angieskidney,
DON'T increase the size of your needle until YOU feel ready to do so.
I have been on hemo for 8 months. I have very small veins and my upper arm fistula does not seem to be
developing. May never get enlarged. Anyway, I am still on only size 17 needles. Tried # 16 and that was a
BIG mistake. Depending on your development, maybe you will be able to go lower and with higher blood flow
rate. I can't, probably never will be able to go faster. I have constant pain in my entire arm during dialysis
that after about 2 hrs I need them to turn down the flow rate.
I find if I put the cream on every 15 minutes for 1.25 hrs before treatment it helps with the needles.
Good luck.
SCYankee
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I had my first needle yesterday..
one needle.. one line
no freezing :o
wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.. ::)
Can't wait to get rid of the cath. 8)
I just started the same way 2 weeks ago on a wed and then last wed started 2 needles. Those are the smaller ones. This wed they are starting me on the 15ga and I am nervous from some of the stories I have heard... the Emla cream works best if you wrap your arm in cling wrap.
angieskidney,
DON'T increase the size of your needle until YOU feel ready to do so.
I have been on hemo for 8 months. I have very small veins and my upper arm fistula does not seem to be
developing. May never get enlarged. Anyway, I am still on only size 17 needles. Tried # 16 and that was a
BIG mistake. Depending on your development, maybe you will be able to go lower and with higher blood flow
rate. I can't, probably never will be able to go faster. I have constant pain in my entire arm during dialysis
that after about 2 hrs I need them to turn down the flow rate.
I find if I put the cream on every 15 minutes for 1.25 hrs before treatment it helps with the needles.
Good luck.
SCYankee
I have no choice. I mean .. they say I can turn it down but if I do I have learned from experience that they write "non-compliant" on your paper which effects if you will get a transplant or not (in canada).
Sometimes I feel not listened to. I wish my favourite nurse was at my unit more than just every couple months for a week only. I miss her. She is very nice. Her name is Jeannine (Not sure if I spelled it right) & she always makes me smile. All the nurses seem pretty reliant but I still can't help feeling rushed. 3 times with each step ... is that the same for everyone else??
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I think the larger needle's in a short period of time is the "norm". Remember the more blood thru the machine, the better for you. I started dialysis April this year, was at 15 gauge within 1-1/2 months time.
If the nurse's told you ahead of time about the larger needle's, thats kind of mean, that works on your nerve's. At the clinic I go to, they changed me up, and didn't tell me, I was the one who noticed, that was by the color of the "flap's" on the needle. We all hate needle's, but I can't recall the difference in the 17 to the 15, thank God it only hurts till they are in.
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I think the larger needle's in a short period of time is the "norm". Remember the more blood thru the machine, the better for you. I started dialysis April this year, was at 15 gauge within 1-1/2 months time.
If the nurse's told you ahead of time about the larger needle's, thats kind of mean, that works on your nerve's. At the clinic I go to, they changed me up, and didn't tell me, I was the one who noticed, that was by the color of the "flap's" on the needle. We all hate needle's, but I can't recall the difference in the 17 to the 15, thank God it only hurts till they are in.
I asked to be told. I wanted to see the difference. I mean I have been going thru all sorts of stuff since I was 9 years old so for me .. I would rather just know. It doesn't make me more nervous by knowing. Infact for me it relaxes me to know ahead of time what to expect. I am a very realistic person. Sure they are bigger but I think my AV Fistula will be able to handle it by looking at it.
The nurse was NOT being mean ... you see .. the first nurse would NOT talk about it with me but the 2nd nurse did because I asked. It must be hard being a nurse when different people want different things. And everyone reacts differently.
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Old Tread same news "I Hate Those Bloody Needles!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Well what Sister Shirley said when she came back off her holiday she did >:( Got caught out, was ot expecting it. Been using both lines since about March. She got a needle in my fistula today. Been very quiet, thinking she had forgot what she had said. But I'm not that lucky >:(
I know My lines are failing, plus it is suppose to be for my own good "Ha!" Will never get used to being needled >:( To many bad memories from when I was a child on haemo, being held down and so on, what I have said before. Now thinking about Thursday, if, what she did before was tell all the nurses that I was not to use both lines, but to have at least one needle in. Been let off having needles because I was moving around so much with the pain in my leg. But the pain is going :clap; and the needles are coming back :thumbdown;
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Kevno you can do it. Just let them get them in and taped down and then just block it out of your mind. Take some drugs before you go in!
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Kevno, you CAN do it. Tell the inner children to go somewhere nice for a holiday in your mind while you are on dialysis. They do not have to be there when you get stuck. You, the big brave adult can do the sticks just fine. I have had to do this several times in my own life to get through things. I know you can do it. Like Rerun said. Stick it, tape it down, and lots of drugs!
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Kevno it seems like you are the type who would LIKE being held down by nurses!!! ;D
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You could try some valium or something like that ;) I find it helps take your mind off things.
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Tried must be nearly everything. Drugs, seen Doctors, professors about the phobia. I know it is stupid but, thats why I went onto CAPD and not Haemo. A Doc said I would never have to go on haemo, how wrong he was. Been on haemo for six years now. Most of the time I have got away with my lines. But the time for the lines has now run out. But my fistula is, in a word crap. It was done in 1980, Stopped because I got ESP 2000, the surgeons had a go at restarting it one year later! a cut from my wrist to the top of my arm 44 staples, and only a 2 inch stretch of the fistula is working. Ha! well, we see what happens Thursday ::) I hope I can deal with it a bit better than last time the Nurses tried needles with me, only having two hours of dialysis. Getting out of the chair and not even letting a Nurse try to get an needle in :-\ I knew the time was coming, it has come around so quick! I got caught out on Tuesday, was not expecting it, she did it so fast. On Thursday will be ready for the needle. Plus already thinking about having an needle.
Getting held down by the Nurses might be good. There are a few fit ones. But the only trouble I would be fighting them off Old Rerun :thumbup;
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I find if I harp about things that worry me, it makes it worse. Even talking about it too much makes it worse. I have developed a really bad problem in association with the quality of the dialysis water, plus a few other things. I really have to make myself ignore it, otherwise it just overrules my life. I have started seeing a psychologist once a week which helps alot. Just talking to her (about everything and anything) gives me that little push to stay on dialysis for the that week.
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I have gone to three psychologist two were Doctors and the last one a Professor. I did get needled today well one needle, but I got put on as soon as I got to the unit otherwise I would get anxious about the needle and got for a walk to try t calm down a bit. Too many bad memories, too many to get rid of, from being six years old. When the Doctors found out too late I had Reflux. Having a doctor try time and time again to get a vein for a IVP. The Nurses holding me down, too my Mum stepping in to stop the Doctor from trying again. Then telling that Doctor to leave me alone and get a more competent Doctor :o To being on Haemo when I was ten. Had four years I can not remember much about, on so much Valium. But still had my arm strapped to a board to keep it straight. Plus a nurse to hold my arm down. Even now I have to hold the top of my arm when I am being needled.
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There are so many problems with fistulas breaking down, taking time to mature, getting infiltrated, and developing recirculation difficulties that I don't know why the medical profession thinks they are the only answer for long term hemodialysis. This does not even begin to address the problems patients have with the physical pain of being needled and the general uselessness of anaesthetics to address those problems. Why not do what I did during all the years of dialysis, which is insist on being dialysed through a central line, a catheter inserted in the chest? This way there is absolutely no pain in being attached to the machine or removed from it, attachment and removal are much quicker, you can move both arms freely during dialysis, and your body-image is not damaged by one or more ugly fistulas.
Of course the average nephrologist will tell you that a central line is unsuitable for long-term dialysis, but this is based on outdated experience with the older models, which used to become infected so often that the patient had to suffer unacceptably many bouts of septicemia. But with the new models this is not an issue, and the line generally never becomes clotted or needs to be changed. Even if it does, it can quickly and painlessly be replaced over a guide wire, without making a new hole in the chest for insertion. The only difficulty for the patient is that you have to be careful not to get the line infected, which means never getting it wet, so when you take a bath you have to wrap it up carefully in a baggie and secure it with tape. I used his method of dialysis from 1996 to 2005 and had to have the line changed for infection only three times, which no nephrologist will ever believe could be true, but in my case it was. I think anyone could achieve the same result or better, simply by keeping the exit site dry. The few times the line got infected were my own fault in filling the bathtub too full and splashing water onto the line.
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Stauffenberg that makes me feel a lot better. The last time they put in a catheter in my chest (May) I told them it is not coming out. I'm not a piece of Tupperware. So, it is in and doing okay. It has some "Proud flesh" around it, but it is not infected. But, it weeps and boy does that smell. Of course my chest is not too far from my nose! There is a doctor on dialysis at my unit and he just has a catheter too. So, when they start giving me crap about using my fistula I tell them "When Doc over there starts using his, I'll use mine." :beer1;
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Stauffenberg that makes me feel a lot better. The last time they put in a catheter in my chest (May) I told them it is not coming out. I'm not a piece of Tupperware. So, it is in and doing okay. It has some "Proud flesh" around it, but it is not infected. But, it weeps and boy does that smell. Of course my chest is not too far from my nose! There is a doctor on dialysis at my unit and he just has a catheter too. So, when they start giving me crap about using my fistula I tell them "When Doc over there starts using his, I'll use mine." :beer1;
Sorry Rerun, but with all due respect, do you actually feel a lot better because stauffenberg says so? Did you read his description of his own dialysis experience?
I spent eight years on dialysis, during which I was unable to work and endured a kind of living death, during which my existence was plagued with hypersomnia, constant nausea and vomiting, itching, difficulty concentrating, and exhaustion -- despite my rigid adherence to the renal diet and 15 hours of hemodialysis a week.
From this experience you want to take his advise? The symptoms he describes sound a lot like inadequate dialysis --- through a catheter inserted in the chest.
I care too much about you to not speak up ... and yes in public, too.
He's just spewing more hog wash. ;)
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I would prefer a fistula to a permacath. I totally hated having those things. stauffenberg, what one person experiences is usually not the same as another. I can tell you now that in my experience, getting a catheter inserted is not pain free, and it also wasnt pain free when I got it dressed every dialysis. It was a pain to stop it from getting wet, and it itched so much I made it bleed. I couldnt wait to get that thing pulled out.
Im no expert, but if I am right there are more risks associated with using a catheter for dialysis. They are mostly only used temporarily here, and Im sure its for good reason. They are probably more expensive too.
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This is the thing. This is my third fistula. It worked for 2 months and then they said it was narrowing so they did a fistula gram and split the fistula and in doing so knocked me out because I was in such PAIN and put in a stint and later on had to put in another chest catheter. They tired the right side again for the catheter and again had to put me out because of such PAIN and I woke up with a catheter out the left side of my chest.
I'm running out of options. AND I'm not doing the fistula in my leg, back etc. I'm not going to become one huge giant FISTULA. So, at that point I guess I'd quit dialysis or commit suicide as some of you say.
Stauffenberg's words were comforting in that he had a catheter for almost 10 years. It can be done.
I would LOVE a good fistula and I have a big one. The walls are just weak. I just don't see it lasting. I should probably start using it so I know while I still have a working catheter, but I just want a break from thinking about it. Maybe that will be a goal for 2007.
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I dont give a shit where they put my fistulas, as long as i can live.
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Well, I guess I do care. You are going to die (news flash) :banghead; so I'd rather go with some dignity.
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My dignity went out the window when I first went into hospital. I do have some left I guess.
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The lines I have in now I have had in since 23rd October 2003 so nearly 3 years. I have a infection in the exit site of the lines, more antibiotics :-\ When the lines were first put in I manage 300 pump speed, over the years the speed has slowly gone down. Now can not get much over 220 pump speed. I am starting to feel it my URR's are at 65% normal on our unit is 70 - 75%. Now I am nearly being forced to have at least on needle. But that is I suppose my choice, with the flyer I wrote to all the Nurses on the unit about my needle phobia :banghead;. Had this fistula since May 1980, it was a superb fistula the vein was dead straight and about 12inches long. But while having an operation I got dried out so the fistula stopped. The Surgeons waited over a year before they tried to restart it again. Now just a 2inch stretch which can be needled, no chance of getting any better. Already had a fistula in left arm in 1977 a Venus loop which as messed up that arm for another fistula. Both legs can not be used have calcified veins, plus a main vein was used for the Venus loop in 1977 in the right leg.
Rerun Keep on with your lines. In the end it is up to you ;)
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I did not feel well on dialysis, but it had nothing to do with inadequate dialysis because of the catheter access. My pump speed was always 450 and my Kt/V was 1.6, so my problems were mainly due to my body's inability to tolerate anything more than a minimal degree of toxins in the blood.
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I hate the needles because when they cannulate me it seems that the needle is always right at the surface and I worry about it poking through and making the fistula "blow". I am getting the catheter out next week after having it in for a year but I am afraid that when that time comes that they will need to use the catheter again and it won't be there :( I feel the nurses and Nephrologists don't take me seriously and when I ask about buttonhole they keep putting me off. Plus the Renal Social Worker got replaced by another higher up in seniority who hasn't even BOTHERED to come by and introduce herself when she was supposed to. I can't learn to needle myself until they put me on the morning shift for the buttonhole and they say there is no room so too bad :( Plus with how "snakey" my fistula is they have a hard time with cannulating me :( And it rolls a lot which means they have to "fish around" to get a good flow :(
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Well, I guess I do care. You are going to die (news flash) :banghead; so I'd rather go with some dignity.
OK, Rerun,"dignity" if thats what u call it, :banghead; having an artificial thing sticking out of you chest LOL
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You forgot about the big bumpy thing down your arm tamara ;)
Anyway back to the needle thing. managed not to get needled the last Two times, the only thing is that today the Head Nurse noticed :-\ So no chance on Thursday. That Beeping needle will be their on the table, I will do the usual thing and put it back in the draw, and hope my notes do not get read again by the Nurse who is putting me on. It's like a bit of a war with me and a couple of the Nurses. I can not help what I am like with the needles, the Nurses know that. So I try everything I know to get out of having a needle. But not every Nurse knows I am back using one needle. So I try to grab one of those Nurses to put me on :D Last two times it as worked. The only trouble is I am running out of Nurses who do not know about the needle thing :banghead;
I know that the Nurses are doing this for my own good. Get such a bad dialysis because of the lines. I will some how manage, been back on haemo for 6 years now. For the first year I was having two needles, but then all the trouble with the fistula stopping. Just got too used to using the lines. Two hands free :) Get on and off the machine so quick. No waiting to stop bleeding :) Needles :thumbdown; Lines :thumbup;
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Kevno,
The choice is yours. If you do not want to use your fistula you have the right to tell them. In your own words you have told us that your dialysis is very poor through the permcath. This to me would mean needles :thumbup; line :thumbdown;. I know which I would chose, you have been on dialysis a long time and know all about it.
I know that when you create a mental state against something it becomes very hard to change. Its only a needle, I'm sure you have gone through worse. Use lidocaine if you have to or EMLA cream.
PS. you are making us boys look bad. :banghead;
I do hope you manage to get over the fear.
Cheers
Alasdair
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Okay Kevno. It's okay to be afraid of it, but it is just one needle every three days. Here I will let you calculate how many times I have been stuck. Let's see.
First three months on catheters at the beginning, one month of catheter later on with revised graph, so subtract 24 sticks for four months,
that is 96 sticks to subtract.
Now 8 years, never missed a treatment :angel;
12 dialysis days in an average month, 2 sticks a day= 12*2=24 sticks in a month, right?
12 months in a year, right? 24*12=288 sticks a year.
8years-right? 288*8 (November 2, 2006)= 2304 sticks in eight years.
2304- catheter months= 2304- 96=2212
Minus two months until November 2212-48=2164
Holy cats! I have been stuck over 2164 times! :banghead; I feel like a pin cushion! Now if I can do it, you can, too.
We ALL know who is the "coward of the county" around here! Me!
Love and kisses to all the pin cushions out there in dialysisland!
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Never afraid of a needle, not even the pain if any pain, been through so much pain in the past. It is so strange, like I said, I have seen two Docs and one Prof about it. I have wrote three lever arch files about what as been done to me over the past 34 years, to try to help with the phobia. It is the flash backs from when I was a child which I can not get rid of, they are so powerful. what ever I try even with what the three specialists have said to try to help me. If I wait to get on the machine I get very nervous. Then have to get off the unit for a walk. Thats one reason why I get to the unit late, so I am last on BUT I do not have to hang around to get on. But while I am being put on thats when the flash backs start, I have to hold the top of my arm, as if I am holding myself down :-\ Then if it is a Nurse I am not use too. I still sometimes not always have to get out of that chair, and off the unit. After I have had a walk I do feel I bit better, just a bit sorry for the nurse I have walked out on. I am a lot better if it is a nurse I have known for some time. Who puts me on.
Kitkatz lost count of needle sticks years again. From when I was six years old and a doctor having go after go at getting a needle in a vein in the end being told to stop by my Mum, and get a more competent Doctor. Thats from where it starts from. Seeing all those nurses over you through tear full eyes. Not being able to move because of being held down. Powerful memories. Easy to say that was then, and now is now. It does not always work like that.
:grouphug;
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Okay, I've been to a counselor....so let me try:
Kevno, you need to take each nurse and doctor that held you down and "forgive" them. Once you forgive them, write them a letter telling them you forgive them. Then burn each letter and as the smoke goes up, so do your fears. Poof-gone......
(If this works, I want PAID)
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Kevno,
Have you tried hypnosis with a good hypnosis therapist?
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Kevno,
Have you tried hypnosis with a good hypnosis therapist?
Ya that is what I was going to suggest because some things no matter how hard you try to get past you won't. Like me and swollowing huge pills :-[. I had severe tonisillitis growing up and had the hardest time with pills and said the only way I will get past this is hypnosis. I never got it .. so I am just slowly working my way up ... but hypnosis might do the trick.
But I hate needles myself as well. Not the pain. I am used to the pain. It is more the fact that what might happen if they screw up! And the feeling of not being in control!
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After 20 years of being on immunosuppresives, I've discovered that my resistence to pain has diminished, so I know exactly what you're talking about. When I was in the hospital after my first transplant, I was only 12 years old and they started to run out of placed to put the IV. They went so far as to try my foot where, as you probably know, nerves are VERY sensitive. They had to get some nurses to hold me down and the "gentleman" trying to put them in just screamed, "Jesuis, just shut up Stacy!"
So part of the fear is obviously psychological.
I've tried the Emla (sp?) Cream and it never really did much of anything and wasn't cheap either.
My dirty little secret is my doctor continues to supply me with Vicodin. It doesn't really curb the pain, but it makes it easier to deal with. I don't use it every time because after long term use it really messes with my digestive system, so it's used maybe once a week.
I also have the habit of squeezing my upper arm really hard so my focus is diverted from the needle pain to the upper arm. This is also psychological because by doing so, I'm in control of the pain I'm focusing on at that moment.
I doubt any of the above helped. Just know htat you're not alone in your hate for Dialysis needles.
Stacy Without An E
stacywithoutane.blogspot.com
First Transplant: 1983
Second Transplant: 1996
Third Transplant: ANY DAY NOW
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I've tried the Emla (sp?) Cream and it never really did much of anything and wasn't cheap either.
Did you use syran wrap with it? I found it only worked with it. Since without it would evaporate too fast. And it had to be on a full hour.
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I have decided that dialysis needles suck!
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I don't mind the needles. What I hate is the tape they use to keep them in place. My arm seems to react and i have red, itchy patches because of it.
I think there is a tape called Yuki which is supposed to be very good if you are allergic to plasters.
This seems to take my mind off the needles.
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Did you use syran wrap with it? I found it only worked with it. Since without it would evaporate too fast. And it had to be on a full hour.
Have you tried the EMLA patches?
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I don't mind the needles. What I hate is the tape they use to keep them in place. My arm seems to react and i have red, itchy patches because of it.
I think there is a tape called Yuki which is supposed to be very good if you are allergic to plasters.
This seems to take my mind off the needles.
Ya it does the same to me! Once my one nurse brought us all tape that was like silk and my skin liked it but now that I ran out we have got no more :( :'( :'( And then there is this ONE nurse who takes the tape and I saw "hold on! Don't use that tape on me!" and she sys, "Too late! You are getting this tape this time!" :banghead; :banghead; >:( :banghead; :banghead;
Did you use syran wrap with it? I found it only worked with it. Since without it would evaporate too fast. And it had to be on a full hour.
Have you tried the EMLA patches?
Emla patches??? Where can you get them!?!?!
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Emla patches??? Where can you get them!?!?!
Should be able to get them at the pharmacy. Though I believe they are pretty spendy also.
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I don't mind the needles. What I hate is the tape they use to keep them in place. My arm seems to react and i have red, itchy patches because of it.
I think there is a tape called Yuki which is supposed to be very good if you are allergic to plasters.
This seems to take my mind off the needles.
Ya it does the same to me! Once my one nurse brought us all tape that was like silk and my skin liked it but now that I ran out we have got no more :( :'( :'( And then there is this ONE nurse who takes the tape and I saw "hold on! Don't use that tape on me!" and she sys, "Too late! You are getting this tape this time!" :banghead; :banghead; >:( :banghead; :banghead;
Did you use syran wrap with it? I found it only worked with it. Since without it would evaporate too fast. And it had to be on a full hour.
Have you tried the EMLA patches?
Emla patches??? Where can you get them!?!?!
Too late?? WTF?? What a bitch!!! I use the yuki ban tape, it is alot better than the usual micropore, but I still itch. A few times I have been in-centre and I get there and the dressing pack is already set up and a ton of micropore all laid out, and I have to say oh Im sorry I cant use that tape. Now days if I go in centre I take all my own stuff, and they know now I am happy to set up everything myself.
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Ya it does the same to me! Once my one nurse brought us all tape that was like silk and my skin liked it but now that I ran out we have got no more :( :'( :'( And then there is this ONE nurse who takes the tape and I saw "hold on! Don't use that tape on me!" and she sys, "Too late! You are getting this tape this time!" :banghead; :banghead; >:( :banghead; :banghead;
Too late?? WTF?? What a bitch!!! I use the yuki ban tape, it is alot better than the usual micropore, but I still itch. A few times I have been in-centre and I get there and the dressing pack is already set up and a ton of micropore all laid out, and I have to say oh Im sorry I cant use that tape. Now days if I go in centre I take all my own stuff, and they know now I am happy to set up everything myself.
Ya yesterday the nurse had laid out all my tape as well :( I hate it when they do it for me! Another patient was also complaining how this is the Self Care unit yet they have not taught her a damn thing. The nurses basically like to do it all themselves as they say it is faster and easier instead of them waiting on us. Well TOUGH!! It is OUR life it is OUR health! Would they like to trade with us? Geeze!!
But yes, I also hate it when they lay out my tape for me ... I want to have more control over my care! Not for them to do it to save time for them! :banghead;
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Angiem you have to KICK ASS and take names! Take care of you and the nurses do NOT have anything to do but what YOU need!
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I have to get over my fear of needles and then I can just take things into my own hands, like Epoman has told me
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Dont worry too much angie until you can get your fistula really working well and the catheter comes out.
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Had one needle one Thursday, The head Nurse was there Shirley, so she made sure I had one needle. On Saturday, Well on Saturday, Shirley not there a new Nurse. So........ NO NEEDLE! Just could not bring myself to say I was using one needle now. Pump speed was bad with one needle in on Thursdays only 200, just 20 more on Saturday with both lines.
Rerun too write to each Nurse and Doctor "I forgive them", I would need all of the rainforest to be cut down just for the paper :o
Stacy, I have always squeezed the top of my arm even for a blood test. :-\
Well, now waiting to see what happens on Tuesday :popcorn; Once I get the needle thing in my head can not stop thinking about it :banghead;
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Dont worry too much angie until you can get your fistula really working well and the catheter comes out.
The Catheter comes out the day after tomorrow! THAT is why I felt I could start worrying :P :-[ :-\
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I will never get used to needles.....I cope by not looking at them, I've never seen one of the needles
yes, a nurse called me a chicken while she was saying she hates needles and is glad she doesn't get stuck
the tect places my fingers where they go to hold the spots
one tect told me to conquer my fears and look at the needles
I said something back to her that was not nice
which surprised everyone - usually I'm shy >:D >:D >:D
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Marvin hates needles and always has. Even after almost 1,700 treatments (he'll hit that number in a few weeks), he's NEVER watched as a needle went in. He just turns his head and clenches his teeth. Now that I'm the one cannulating him (home hemo), it almost breaks MY heart to put the needles in. Poor baby!
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I used to be terrified of needles. If I knew I was going to get stuck with a needle, I'd dread it for hours or even days. When I first went into the hospital when my kidneys finally gave up the ghost, the doctor/nurse/tech would put an IV in and I'd be tensing every muscle in my body and gritting my teeth. After the first week, I was doing a little better, and by the time I'd been on dialysis for about a month, I got to where I didn't even flinch when I had to get an IV (this was even before I had my graft). When my graft was ready for use, I was more nervous than usual because of the size of the needles. My home training nurse did the first two sticks, and it actually didn't hurt any more than an IV needle. When it came time for me to do my first stick myself, I planted the first needle right into a nerve. OWWWW! I instinctively jerked the needle back, and promptly hosed myself, the chair, and the nurse down with blood. Now, I'm not afraid of needles at all as far as pain goes (I have so much nerve damage along the length of my graft, I usually can't feel the needles anyway), but I'm still somewhat afraid of messing up and wrecking my graft (which is screwed up enough as it is). Needles still suck, but I have learned to "co-exist" with them.
Adam
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I read this thread thru and can sympathize with everyone. I've had 12 sticks in just 3 trips this week. Tuesday I had 3 sticks to get on and after 2-1/2 hrs of my 4 hour treatment got infiltrated and had to be taken off. Went for normal Thursday treatmet. Was stuck 5 times unsuccessfully and sent home with no treatment. The tears rolled during these! Was told to come back yesterday (Fri). I said no, but center called my neph and he said I needed to come in next day or make emergency trip for catheter. I went back yesterday at 6:30 am and after 4 sticks, finally got my 4 hour treatment. The first 2 hours were touch and go with constant adjustment of needles, but last 2 hours were uncomfortable but uneventful. They wanted me in again today for my normal Sat. treatment, and I told them NO. I need some time for my fistula to recover. By the way, when I got home yesterday I had a statement in the mail showing billing of over $3000 for a catheter placed in me. I've never had a catheter. I know it was for an angioplasty in Nov., but the timing really aggravated me, and I'll be following up on it. Best to everyone.
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Just a quick update on the needle thing! 26th December 2007 in my sleep pulled one of my tesio lines out :o Blood everywhere lucky i woke up, to put a finger over the hole. ;D So now one line, one bloody needle! but now the nurses are so used to me, ::) don't know why ;D only a certain few nurses will even try to put me on. Think i must scare one or maybe two ::) of the newer nurses. Think it must be the look i give them. So you think you are going to try to get a NEEDLE in me >:( >:( But I do let the news ones have a go as long as a experienced nurse who as put me on a few times is there to show what to do. PANIC AND RUN :waving;
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I just read this whole thread for the first time and Kevno I sympathize with all you've been through and for so long and when you were a kid. When you talk about all that has been done TO you by the nurses with the needles and all it makes perfect sense. So now for my bizarre question. Have you ever tried taking away from all these people the power/ability/need to hurt you? By that of course I mean the dreaded do it yourself and take back (some) control option. When other used to people cannulate me I found it waaaay more painful than doing it myself. There's something about the need to concentrate that helps me. You may have already addressed this somewhere before Kevno but I'm still a little new here so I apologize in advance if this is a dumb thing to be saying to you.
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I think he does stick himself about 12 times a week.
Kevno, you are brave beyond belief to me, I have never seen the needles.
I know I'd sh** at the sight of them.
I'd have to stick myself blindfolded.
however, that could be better than the stick I had Friday.
Monrein, are you going to stick yourself.....You are full of courage....
I think Kevno emailed me that he does it to himself 12 times a week.....He is a hero to me.......
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I'm not on hemo yet but I thought that the "button hole" technique could be used to reduce the pain. You put the needle into the same spot every time ( pick the scab off first) . Does anyone do this ?
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I did my own sticks for 5 years last time. I also had a very even (zero bulges) straight really good fistula and my medical team felt that it was the result of doing it myself using the ladder technique consistently.
This time I plan to do it myself again and I hope to do buttonholes which are new to me but I've discussed it with the self care unit I'm planning on going to. I also want to try that biohole plug I've heard about. I would take my own blood if they'd give me the supplies and I like to watch my procedures or at least have them described in detail by whoever is doing them. My docs always find this a bit strange but I don't like being in the dark. I only infiltrated myself twice in 5 years.
I find it hurts less although I will admit that the first time I did it (about my 5th session) I got the needles in then felt faint and threw up.
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When I was a child I was so afraid of needles, even just in the form of a subcutaneous or intramuscular injection, that I used to be sick for a month before going to each doctor's appointment, just on the speculation that I would be injected with some vaccine. When I was diagnosed at 14 as a type 1 diabetic, you can well imagine my feelings, but I adjusted to the daily regimen of self-injection within about a week and have since then taken over 40,000 of them with no problem. I hope this suggests that 90% of the problem is half mental, as Yogi Bera used to say.
Similarly, I saw a 19 year-old male having his first needling at dialysis, during which he whimpered and yelped like a whipped puppy until even the nurse had to stop because he had upset her so much. After a relatively short while he was stoically enduring the needling just like all the rest of the patients. Its all about what you can get used to.
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Now seen 4 Doctors and a Professor about my needle phobia. Still seeing one doctor and the Professor once every three months. No Chance i could ever needle myself. Tried and just froze up. ??? Tried to many ways to get over this. Now just put up with it. No choice, the other thing is death (Thats not for ME yet ;D ) Not to bad it the nurse get the needle in first time. But start the drop BP if see misses. If you have ever crashed on the machine you know how that feels. :thumbdown;
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:cuddle; Wish I could make it better.
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I use the lidocaine/prilocaine cream on my site about an hour before I go in. By the time the nurse comes around to stick me, I'm busy on my laptop and I never look up. I usually don't even know it until she raises my feet after everything is done.
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I use the same thing Flip, and it really helps. How do you use a laptop at "D"? I was told I could not use one....Oh wait, I think you are the person who has a good "D" center.....
without the cream; I would scream
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My center has wifi. In fact, they even have laptops for those who don't own one to use.
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WHAT THE HECK you dialysis in Heaven :bow; my place bitches about getting ice ONE CUP - 6 ounces per visit
God forbide you drop it...
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Wow..I usually take my lunch and a soft drink to dialysis and get at least two cups of ice. Ain't nothin' better than a 5 Star Dialysis Center. :beer1;
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life is unfair
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:bunny:
I've never gotten used to needles or being stuck
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It's become a part of life for me...a little stick three times a week. Much better than the alternative.
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:twocents;..I hate needles about as much or more than I hate "D". I have told myself after my access is ready I will try to do Buttonhole..I will probably need to write that 1000 times to convince myself, or do I write I am a chicken???
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I remember when my transplant was failing. I waited a year longer than I should have to get on CAPD instead of Hemo. A doctor said to me and I quote "You will never have to go on Hemo" only if he knew what he had said. Managed to last 13 years on CAPD. The last seven on Hemo. I have managed to dodge the needles most of the time with lines. But now my veins in my neck are thinning. So no more lines. So one line, one needle. For the foreseeable future. :-\
I would not mind but its not the pain, its not thinking about the needle. I can even open the packs. I think its just Hemo itself, or so the prof thinks. Unstopable flash back from when i was a child on hemo. The holding down the arm strapped to a board. The feeling of being trapped on the machine. Those feeling all comes back when having a needle for dialysis. But when using lines no such feelings.
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Ouch ouch ouch!
I hate needles and whenever I donate blood I think about dialysis patients having to endure so much more! :(
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Unstopable flash back from when i was a child on hemo. The holding down the arm strapped to a board. The feeling of being trapped on the machine. Those feeling all comes back when having a needle for dialysis.
That is a difficult thing to have to remember. :grouphug;