'What's wrong with you'?

[LightLizard]

Well, here's my letter to and response from Deepak Chopra, the grand poohba of that website, himeself.
I have to say that I do have respect for him and the work he does, mostly, and I'm not surprised at his response, knowing that he does have an agenda to promote this kind of thing.

Dear Deepak. I have been advised that my condition of ESRD ('End Stage Renal Disease) could be healed by my mind, with positive thinking, visualisations and prayer.
Is this possible and how does it work?
And if so, why has no one done it?
 
thank you

Wayne Wilson

Dear Wayne,
I have not met anyone who has healed ESRD mentally, so I couldn't attest to what you have been advised about.  As to whether it is possible, I would say it is theoretically possible because through the mind-body connection our thoughts effect our neurotransmitters and hormones and consequently impact our biology.
Love,
Deepak

what a surprise hey?

'theoretically' possible, hm?

like the areonautic experts state that a bumble-bee, 'theoretically', should not be able to fly.
 

[BigSteve]

Hey folks, is it really worth the time and effort to argue with these people
who believe that all illness is mentally based because of "negative thoughts"?
It one of us get sicker it's because of those "negative thoughts", and if
anyone gets better from any illness they attribute it  to "positive thought",
not the physicians or medicines that cure us. It's a belief system and therefore
viturally impossible to argure with because it's based on beliefs, not rational
thought processes.

[LightLizard]

in case you haven't noticed yet, stevie, that's what humans do, its how they learn and hopefully, grow.
its called 'discussion' and its what is usually done on 'discussion boards' like this one, and some others too. you don't have to participate or even look at it, if you don't want to, but i doubt there's much profit or gain in telling others not to do what you don't like doing, is there?

 

[BigSteve]

LL, This is why I would rather discuss issues face to face rather than on
this type of forum. It is sometimes hard to get a point across. I greatly enjoy
the give and take of discussion and am certainly not telling you or anyone else
not to discuss. My point is that the persons in your other on-line group are
similar to religious persons and have a thought pattern based on a non-rational
belief. It is up to any of us to choose to have a belief which is non empirical.
Your original posting was about the difficulty of discussion with the "Chopra"
group.  My question is still: Can you present logical arguments to cause  individual
to change their beliefs? In my own life, as a non religious person, I do not or
would not challenge the basic beliefs of a religious person. Steve

[LightLizard]

i hear you steve, but i am of another 'school'. i believe that beliefs should ALWAYS be challenged, regardles, and perhaps -especially- if they are 'religiously' held and defended.
to each his/her own, as they say. but i'm with you on religion. i love the old greek guys, the masters of logic...
'religion is, to the intelligent; true- to the wise; false- to the leader; uselful'
 

[BigSteve]

LL, thanks for the reply. My main concern with anyone who has a belief system is
the exterior consequences of that system. I really don't care is someone tells me
I'm going to hell because I don't believe as they do because I don't believe in
hell. However when that same person fouls the environment because the
"end of days" is coming soon, or forbids a gay man or lesbian to visit the
hospital room of an ill partner because of their "sinful" acts, then I certainly
feel like challenging their belief. When basic humanity is denied I would
of course agreed with you with your challenge.
By the way I recently read in the paper that a study concluded that there
is no difference in the life span of seriously ill people depending on their
attitude, either positive or negative. Steve

[BobT1939]

Things, bad things sometimes, happen to people. We are people, so they are as likely to happen to us as to anyone. Does the child with leukemia bring on the illness with a negative attitude? Of course not. Nor have we brought on renal disease with a negative attitude.

Can a positive attitude help us deal with the problems we face. You betcha! Did a negative attutude bring on the disease? No way./bobt

[lcamanini]

I was very upset when my dad talked to my aunt who is a shaman when I was first diagnosed. She went on to him about how I did it to myself and it was my negative thinking and basically that it was all my fault. It's very easy for someone to say that who hasn't dealt with a serious illness and I think it's very disrespectful.

[Lulu]

Hey Lightlizard - Just wanted you to know I feel your quandry. I saw that the link was had the word "Chopra" in it and didn't bother. Sorry. When I was 21 I was diagnosed with Addison's in addition to my ever failing kidneys. My Dad decided to be "helpful" and send me to a Tony Robbins seminar where Deepak Chopra was speaking. This was in 1992. At this seminar I was to walk over hot coals (literally), stop (yes STOP) taking all of my medicine because it was toxic, and of course think myself well. WTF!!!! Let me say it again WTF!!! Thank God I have at least one pea rolling around in my nogin. Because, had I done those things it would have been a death wish. My Dad was dissappointed that I left the seminar early. I just could not take the insanity anymore. I agree that a positive mental outlook is important, not that I ever had one  . Anyways, don't get dug in too deep over there in Chopra land. Let one of them get sick and see how quickly they can think their way out of it. I've been trying for 37 years.

[LightLizard]

hey thanks LuLu. yeah, between the shamans and the self-help gurus there's a real lack of life experience that clouds their logic centers, i think.
before i got sick i admit that i did consider myself a 'healer' of sorts. in my tai chi and qigong practice, which i made a living by for a number of years, i developed my own version of therapeutic touch that involved changing the flow of clients' energy through conscious manipulation. one woman i worked with had a very interesting experience during a session. she could feel the pain of her fibromyalgia being 'pulled out' of her back. strangely, i hadn't told her what i was doing, but i was standing behind her and consciously pulling it out of her at the time. she had been suffering from it for 15 years, and after that session, it never returned. of course, she also made drastic alterations to her diet, which had been a source of massive weight gain and other health complications for her, too.

kidney failure brought me back to earth, you could say. good thing too, or i could have been lost forever in the void with the other shamaniacs.


love

~LL~

[Lulu]

Hi Lightlizard,
Be proud for being an alternative healer. You provided a great service for those people.My whole life I have tried everything, reiki, cranial sacral,meditation, prayer, "positive thinking," vitamins, herbs, chinese medicine, acupunture, diet, even macro-biotic diets, I tried every oil, potion and lotion out there. I finally came to the conclusion that some of those things certainly ease my pain and some of them cause grave danger by messing with my electrolytes and kidneys. I really wish some of these groups like Deepak Chopra would ackowledge that there is no end all, be all, cure all. Disease, illness, death they happen and sometimes unfortuneately they happen to incredible people. It is not their fault.

[LightLizard]

we've been on similar paths, lulu.
yes, i do cherish the memories of those days when working with my friends, students and clients.
even watching the wonderful transformation that people go thru when learning tai chi or qigong is a joyous and uplifting experience.

i thin a lot of healers would have more credibility if they worked under the title of 'complementary medicine' rather than 'alternative medicine.'

both allopathic and holistic medicine have their time and place. in europe, they strive to work together.
even in china, several hospitals there actually give the patients a choice of western or eastern methods of treatment, or even allow them to combine the two, if necessary.
in the west, medicine is often shaped by the 'bottom line' -the profit margin, and so, competition between the different methods can often complicate a patients journey.

love

~LL~

[stauffenberg]

At German medical schools they teach homeopathic medicine as a regular part of the curriculum, and in France and England there are also licensed medical doctors who specialize in homeopathic treatment.  I have tried the whole gamut of alternative therapists, however, and I never found the least benefit from following all of their prescriptions to the letter -- in the case of my homeopathic doctor, for two years!  Once when my homeopathic doctor left me alone in her office to attend to some business, I looked through the stack of her patients' medical records on the desk, complete with detailed laboratory studies in every case.  There was not a single patient who came to her with the least abnormality in their bloodwork, at least of the cases I was able to sample!  She was simply treating people who had functional symptoms or who thought they were sick, or wanted to be pampered by posing as sick, so of course she was nearly always successful.  But as soon as she had a genuine  problem to deal with, she could do nothing.

[LightLizard]

i hear that one, stauffenburg. there are many charlatans of varying shape and size out there.
but, to be fair,  allopathic doctors don't have all the anwers, either. my first endoctrinologist, who had been practicing for over 25 years when i saw him, prescribed me a med that had side effects that were listed as 'fatal for patients with kidney problems.'
i think the stats show that in the USA, 100,000 people die yearly from wrongful perscription drugs.

but yes, most of the holistic methods do work with the attitude, more than the biology of a patient, and could be viewed as 'placebo' in their effects. if it works, it works. if it doesn't, there's always another way, hopefully.

love

~LL~

[Lulu]

we've been on similar paths, lulu.

i think a lot of healers would have more credibility if they worked under the title of 'complementary medicine' rather than 'alternative medicine.'

Very true LL, very true.