Split from TV Shows- Trump and Russia

[kristina]

Just watched an episode of "The FBI files documentary" ... absolutely awesome !!! The way the FBI-officers work and think it all out before they proceed is just stunning! Compliments to America to have developed such an awesome intelligent investigatory & forensic national security organisation ... Hopefully some Scotland Yard officers watch some of these episodes to perhaps get some inspiration, because when listening to some of the elderly former Scotland Yard officers, New Scotland Yard seems to have "lost the plot"...

Trump hates the FBI and believes nothing the intelligence services have to say about Trump's campaign's ties with Russia.

Could it be that his hatred is based on the fact that he feels a bit intimidated by their knowledge ?

[MooseMom]

Yeah, he's intimidated by their knowledge about how the Russians helped him win the Presidency!

[kristina]

Yeah, he's intimidated by their knowledge about how the Russians helped him win the Presidency!

Hello MooseMom ... and I am sorry that I did not see your reply earlier....
... Does it mean that he work together with "the Russians"? Why and what for ?
And ... how could Russia have helped him to win the American Presidency?  Where would be the interest ?
I honestly try to "get my head around it" and would appreciate any further explanation ....
Many thanks from Kristina.

[MooseMom]

Kristina, your questions are at the center of the probe into the Trump campaign and into the investigation into Russian Army Intelligence influence on the election.

We do not know, yet, if the Trump campaign worked with Putin to have Trump elected, but we DO know that Russian Intelligence under Putin's orders hacked into the computers of the Democratic National Convention and used the information they gathered to undermine Hillary Clinton's campaign.  That is the assessment of the 12 indictments that were issued this past Friday by the US Assistant Attorney General. 

Trump's campaign manager, who had previously worked for pro-Trump factions in the Ukraine, is in jail awaiting trial.  He has been charged with money laundering and tampering with a witness/obstruction of justice.

While campaigning, Trump looked into the camera and asked Russia to release Hillary's emails, if they had them.  They did, and they did.  The very next day.  Collusion?  We will see.

 "Why?".  It could be money.  All of these people work together for money.  Trump has done business in Russia, and there may be some illegality with his financial dealings there.  But we don't know because Trump will not release his tax returns for public scrutiny despite promising to do so.  Maybe Putin has dirt on him that could get him imprisoned.  If Trump would be more forthcoming about his financial affairs, that question could be quickly answered.

Putin's greatest goal is to see the Western Alliance torn to shreds.  He fears NATO and wants to see it undermined.  He sees as more and more countries on his borders consider joining.  What would be a better way to undercut NATO than to undermine its American underpinning?

Putin is delighted with Brexit.  He knows that Russia is not in good enough economic shape to engage in military warfare, so what better way to strike at an enemy than through cyberspace?  He and Trump are very much alike in that they can both see the divisions within societies and pry them further open.   Putin saw that in Trump, saw that Trump would sow discord and chaos, and he was right.  Who needs to buy weapons when you can manipulate a nation's populace to turn on itself.  This is exactly what Lincoln saw, that America would never be conquered by a foreign force, rather, that we would see our destruction within ourselves.

https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/abraham_lincoln_143183

There are men in this world who need a foe, an enemy, so that they can distract their people from their true concerns that their government cannot or will not address.  The economy in Russia is poor and the government assassinates people, journalists and dissidents are jailed, and there are no truly free elections.  The people are being plundered, so why not distract them by showing how great your leader is and how strong he is by making the President of your greatest adversary, the United States, look like an adoring fool?

In the US, we have racial strife, corruption at high levels, a health insurance system that is worsening by the day and people who need real help, and income inequality that is growing by the day, so why not distract them by making EVERYONE who is not in step with you THE ENEMY.  So, the US is left with a lot of enemies.  The media is probably the biggest enemy, and Democrats are next.  What would you think if Theresa May stood up before the British nation and called the BBC "the enemy"?  Has she ever called the Labour Party "The Enemy"?

Kim Jong Un needs an "enemy" so that his people won't mind so much being slowly starved or killed.

I am certain that in all of your reading, you've come across the concept of the "useful idiot".  THAT would be the interest.

But the real question isn't about Putin.  We have known for years what his ultimate goal has been, and we have known since early 2016 that Russian Intelligence faffed about in the DNC's computers (btw, they also hacked the other party's computers, but Putin wanted Trump to win (he said so today), so it was Clinton's side that got undermined.

No, the real question is about Congress, the Great Enablers.  Republican Congresspeople are spineless and don't stand up for the rest of us while our nation is being sold down the river.  But today, after the President's performance in Helsinki, they may be thinking twice.

[MooseMom]

Wait a minute...my post should probably be moved to another forum, but you know how discussions can suddenly find themselves off-topic.  LOL!

[kristina]

Crikey MooseMom, I am very impressed and many thanks for your comprehensive explanation, it is very much appreciated. Have you ever thought of going into politics? I am sure you would do extremely well and perhaps you could restore the faith of many people into listening what politicians have to say and I mean this very honestly!
... One of the most disturbing truths about President Putin is the fact, that before he became President of all Russia, he was the Head-officer of the KGB... a pretty frightening truth, when you start thinking about it ...
It is interesting and very confusing to learn that the campaign manager of President Trump was previously working as a pro-Trump campaign manager in – of all places   –  the Ukraine (?)...  very difficult to know what to make of it or ... to get your head around it ... I wonder what it could mean, because it sounds so contrary to common sense ?
You are right MooseMom, "things" sooner or later always “boil down to” money or perhaps in some exceptions even black-mail ... ?
The quote by Abraham Lincoln sounds like a well thought out warning to all Americans and reads especially eerie right now when he said: “America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves”.
Very eerie to read, especially right now when America seems to get seriously split between the pro-Trump- and anti-Trump-campaigns and it is strange to think that the President himself has inspired such a divide and has done nothing to “put things right”, but instead he lets everyone watch his strange and sometimes unpresidential antics...
Let us hope “things” are not as frightful as they appear.
Many thanks again MooseMom for your comprehensive explanation, it is very much appreciated and I send you my kind thoughts from Kristina.

[Rerun]

Kristina, try to think independently.  Why if this was happening in 2016 didn't Obama do anything about this.  Watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXpRswM-tzc

If the DNC's servers were hacked.... why wouldn't they give the FBI their servers?  FBI went into DNC asked for the servers they said no and FBI left.  Why didn't they just go get the servers? 

The FBI hates Trump.  Why would he trust them.

[MooseMom]

Rerun is absolutely correct to bring to attention those words by President Obama.  He knew at the time that Russian Intelligence was involved as did Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, who pressed Obama not to release that information to the American electorate.  I wish that Obama had not said those things.  I suspect that he believed that Hillary Clinton would win the election (as she was so far ahead at the time), and he did not want Donald Trump to try to de-legitimize the results by releasing information about Putin's actions (because Trump already knew).  Why was Donald Trump complaining about the election being rigged before it had even been held?  Because he already KNEW about Russian involvement and could use that knowledge to create chaos, which was Putin's goal to begin with.

I don't know what Obama was supposed to do with the intelligence that he had.  If he had "done something" before the election, can you imagine the rage among the Trump supporters if Clinton had won?  So, the opposite happened.  Trump won, and now that we DO know the Russians helped him get elected (and Helsinki proves this, along with the 12 indictments issued against specific Russian intelligence spies), the rage is palpable.

The fact that people tend to forget is that Russia also hacked the Republicans' computers, but they didn't release what they found.  They had made a decision that a Trump presidency would act in their favor.  Don't forget that the Republicans' platform had backed away from censuring Putin because of his invasion of Crimea.  The Russians were already at work.

The FBI probably DOES hate Trump NOW after his hideous remarks in Helsinki.  But the FBI's New York office is legendary for hating Hillary Clinton.  But if the FBI had hated Trump so much, why did Comey blather on about the emails just days before the election while saying nothing to the American people about Russian interference that favored Trump?  They KNEW!

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/03/fbi-leaks-hillary-clinton-james-comey-donald-trump

Here is the "server".  https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/13/us/politics/russia-hack-election-dnc.html

I agree with Rerun that you think independently.  My word is certainly not gospel.  I am no expert in cybersecurity, but I don't need to be to see what's happening.  You can reserve judgment until the Mueller investigation has finished.  There have already been a shedload of guilty pleas and indictments.  There are more to come.

Rerun's question, "why should we trust" the FBI shows exactly how Putin has been successful.  He has, with Trump's help, sown distrust in our law enforcement and intelligence agencies.  He and Trump together have made some Americans question the loyalty of those men and women who fight each day to keep our country safe from enemies foreign and domestic.  For the President of the United States to stand next to the Russian leader, that murderous villain, and question the integrity of the FBI is disastrous.


So yes, do think independently, but base your opinions on facts.  They are all out there.  Check different sources.  I've given you my opinions, but they are based on what I have read (the indictments) and what I saw yesterday in Helsinki before my very eyes.  They are also based upon what we have NOT been told, like what Trump and Putin talked about during their 2 hours alone together yesterday.  What concessions were made?  What diabolical plans were hatched?  What threats did Putin make?  What blackmail was revealed?  Maybe they just sat around and talked about the World Cup and how Trump could have won it all by himself because he is the best at taking penalty shots.  Who know?  And THAT's the problem.  With all of these unanswered questions, it just looks BAD that Trump would let himself be manipulated into a private talk with Putin.  This was Putin's greatest wish, and Trump granted it.

[iolaire]

The FBI hates Trump.  Why would he trust them.

We sure are long past the days of this:
'Deafening silence:' Obama, 2016 Dems mum on recent police deaths
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/02/12/deafening-silence-obama-2016-dems-mum-on-recent-police-deaths.html

Certain groups where constantly hammering Obama for not supporting law enforcement immediately after any incident, yet now we have a president that directly works to undermine law enforcement, and those same groups support his attacks on law and order.

[Rerun]

We have lots of indictments.... meaning allegations.  We have guilty pleas to ahhh working for Crimea back in 2006 and getting paid but not reporting it.  That is not collusion with Russia to mess with the 2016 election.

The RNC was not successfully hacked.  They bolstered their servers to stop anyone hacking them. (Probably from the DNC)  The DNC was found to have smudged Bernie Saunders out of the Primary.  Maybe that is just part of the game? 

How DID Russia help Donald Trump win?  Did they buy votes?  Please do tell how they changed your vote from Hillary to Mr. Trump? 

If you are thinking ... oh not my vote because I'm an Educated Elitist and too smart for the Russians to sway....  Then you make me puke.   

 

 

[MooseMom]

Google "did Russia target voters in Michigan".

Trump can't stand the idea that he might not be legitimately elected.  That's why he keeps blithering on about Hillary Clinton every chance he gets.  It's just weird.

And now we have a Russian agent working with the NRA to "establish relationships".

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/prayer-guns-paved-path-to-gop-influence-for-accused-russian-mariia-butina/ar-AAAdzbP?ocid=spartanntp

It's all about political influence and the manipulation of public opinion.  It is easy to do within the realm of social media.  But no one is going to admit to falling for it.  No one is going to confess to having been manipulated by Russian trolls and intelligence agents.

You said it yourself, Rerun.  Maybe the "revelation" by Comey right before the election pushed enough people in enough swing states to vote for Trump.  Those emails were stolen by the Russians.  They were very successful in convincing people that Clinton had something to hide.  All of that fed into that narrative that she couldn't be trusted because she was running a pedo ring out of a pizza restaurant.

The eye-opening thing about all of this is that with mid-terms just around the corner, Trump has done NOTHING to reassure the American electorate that this won't happen again.  He is so incredibly weak.  He bows down before Putin, and then comes home, sees the storm he has created, and he says he "misspoke", saying "would" when he REALLY meant "wouldn't".  He is such a liar.  But nothing is more important to American security than Hillary's emails.   

Even Fox News is appalled.  THAT's saying something.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/07/17/trump-meets-putin-and-fallout-accomplishes-politically-impossible-helsinki-unites-gop-democrats.html

[kristina]

Kristina, try to think independently.  Why if this was happening in 2016 didn't Obama do anything about this.  Watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXpRswM-tzc

If the DNC's servers were hacked.... why wouldn't they give the FBI their servers?  FBI went into DNC asked for the servers they said no and FBI left.  Why didn't they just go get the servers? 

The FBI hates Trump.  Why would he trust them.

Hello Rerun, to be honest I try to remain - with my thinking - as independent as is possible, but unfortunately I can only go on provided information and even there it is sometimes very difficult to figure out whether the truth is actually the real truth or whether the reader is steered into a make-believe-direction to serve a certain purpose which has nothing to do with the truth whatsoever...
I have always admired people who were absolutely sure about "things", but unfortunately I am not one of them, because there are always so many questions left about so many matters.
The only "thing" I feel quite certain about is the "Russian connection" i.e. the campaign manager of President Trump was campaigning in the Ukraine (?) in Russia... 
This information sounds to me unbelievably "fishy" and almost completely made up ... would you not agree?
Best wishes from Kristina.

[kickingandscreaming]

Speaking of truth, here's a Guardian article about the death of truth.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jul/14/the-death-of-truth-how-we-gave-up-on-facts-and-ended-up-with-trump

[kristina]

Hello K&S and many thanks for providing us with this inspiring article, it certainly makes the reader think ...
... and many thanks again to iolaire for this most interesting "Deafening silence" article.
P.S. I have tried to learn a little more about Ex-Trump-Aide Paul Manafort and particularly his political involvement ...  and furthermore, it just has been mentioned in the news, that he has received a $10 m "loan" from a Russian oligarch, identified as Oleg Deripaska who has close ties to the Kremlin ... and ... as MooseMom has already pointed out correctly, "things" sooner or later always “boil down” to money or, if I may add from my own observations, perhaps sometimes it may even "boil down" to a touch of black-mail as well ... ?

[MooseMom]

Hello K&S and many thanks for providing us with this inspiring article, it certainly makes the reader think ...
... and many thanks again to iolaire for this most interesting "Deafening silence" article.
P.S. I have tried to learn a little more about Ex-Trump-Aide Paul Manafort and particularly his political involvement ...  and furthermore, it just has been mentioned in the news, that he has received a $10 m "loan" from a Russian oligarch, identified as Oleg Deripaska who has close ties to the Kremlin ... and ... as MooseMom has already pointed out correctly, "things" sooner or later always “boil down” to money or, if I may add from my own observations, perhaps sometimes it may even "boil down" to a touch of black-mail as well ... ?

Mueller has requested the immunity for 5 witnesses in the Manafort case.  That should tell us something about what he has on Manafort.

[iolaire]

How about that Miss Maria Butina?  Is the NRA a communist front organization?

[kristina]

Hello K&S and many thanks for providing us with this inspiring article, it certainly makes the reader think ...
... and many thanks again to iolaire for this most interesting "Deafening silence" article.
P.S. I have tried to learn a little more about Ex-Trump-Aide Paul Manafort and particularly his political involvement ...  and furthermore, it just has been mentioned in the news, that he has received a $10 m "loan" from a Russian oligarch, identified as Oleg Deripaska who has close ties to the Kremlin ... and ... as MooseMom has already pointed out correctly, "things" sooner or later always “boil down” to money or, if I may add from my own observations, perhaps sometimes it may even "boil down" to a touch of black-mail as well ... ?

Mueller has requested the immunity for 5 witnesses in the Manafort case.  That should tell us something about what he has on Manafort.

... When I read about that, my first thought was that it might give some "sharp observers" an inkling what is being played out... ... because immunity for a witness or witnesses usually means that these witnesses "are legally guilty" but they are being "let go" because they serve - with their information - the good cause - to finally "get to the truth"... (whatever that may mean ...)