The Trump/Russia connection thread

[MooseMom]

I would take that deal, Rerun, provided that contraception is free for everyone along with any doctor appointments required for any pills and/or procedures, thus reducing the need for abortions.

Do you think gun owners would go for that deal?  How about it, Simon Dog?  Would that deal suit you?

[Michael Murphy]

While I hate to write a pro gun reply. If you ban guns completely you would need to bring back predators to control the deer, bear, alagator, etc. populations.  My dislike is two fold military grade weapons (assault guns, large magazines, bump-stocks) and cheap pistols. 

[MooseMom]

While I hate to write a pro gun reply. If you ban guns completely you would need to bring back predators to control the deer, bear, alagator, etc. populations.  My dislike is two fold military grade weapons (assault guns, large magazines, bump-stocks) and cheap pistols.

Well, we could expand the park service and give it responsibility for "culling". 

[MooseMom]

I am not OK with that., which is why I think it is important too put some protections in place so that people are not punished for seeking help with small problems before they become big ones

Like it or not, a side effect of a broad "see a counselor, lose one of your rights" policy is that people will be reluctant to seek professional help.   It is easy for those who do not think people should own guns in the first place to say "well then, just make an appointment with a shrink and give them up", but that is not going to be the effect.

I strongly suspect that red-blooded American males who love their guns would NEVER EVER "see a shrink" for depression until and unless it became a "big" problem, and then it would be too late.  Such men would be mentally ill AND armed by then.  Most men, gun owners or not, won't go to a family doctor, much less a psychiatrist or other mental health care professional. 

What I am hearing in your posts is that people prize their guns over their mental health.  This is very disturbing and is a part of this country's problem. 

You still have not answered my question:  why does anyone want to own the type of weapon used in murdering the kids in Florida?  What do gun owners use it for?  What is its purpose?

[Simon Dog]

Ok, I'll make it simple:

Private swimming pools kill more kids than school shootings.

Why then should people be allowed to have private swimming pools and enjoy an item that when used incorrectly is killing kids?  Surely having everyone with a pool give up their backyard fun is a reasonable price to pay.

As to "what purpose does an AR15 serve" - same purpose as recreational parachuting, diving  hotrodding, car restoration, model airplane flying, etc.

I strongly suspect that red-blooded American males who love their guns would NEVER EVER "see a shrink" for depression until and unless it became a "big" problem, and then it would be too late.

They would if their insurance covered it and they were not afraid of being punished.    A friend eventually saw someone and is doing very well (it was a decade plus ago and he got over his mid life crisis/depression), but was somewhat reluctant because of the gun issue.

What I am hearing in your posts is that people prize their guns over their mental health.  This is very disturbing and is a part of this country's problem.

The real problem is the stigmatization of mental health treatment and the complexities of how to pay for it.

Most of my friends outside of work are from the local gun club.  It's a much more diverse group that I met through work, an includes cops, doctors, construction professionals, computer weenies, an acoustic expert and a retired bomb squad consultant.   When I was sentenced to a couple of months back in center, and I needed a ride from the hospital at to/from my treatments, all it took was one email to the gun club mailing list and I had enough offer of rides to appointments to open up an Uber branch.

[Michael Murphy]

Fine people want to play with assault weapons require they be kept locked in a armory at a shooting facility.  Military members do not have continuous control of their weapons, they are stored in a armory.  But what I don’t understand is the NRA support of bump stocks.  However next summer I plan on going to Savanna and look for the missing hydrogen bomb that has been sitting in the ocean or swamp for 50 years.  I will claim my second amendment rights to keep it as a weapon.

[MooseMom]

Ok, I'll make it simple:

Private swimming pools kill more kids than school shootings.

Why then should people be allowed to have private swimming pools and enjoy an item that when used incorrectly is killing kids?  Surely having everyone with a pool give up their backyard fun is a reasonable price to pay.

Swimming pools are not "incorrectly used" to kill kids.

As to "what purpose does an AR15 serve" - same purpose as recreational parachuting, diving  hotrodding, car restoration, model airplane flying, etc.

What?  What kind of "fun" does a person have with an AR-15"?  Exactly how does having a weapon like this serve as "recreation"?  Do you just look at it?  Do you take it apart so that you can put it back together again?  I'm none the wiser.

I strongly suspect that red-blooded American males who love their guns would NEVER EVER "see a shrink" for depression until and unless it became a "big" problem, and then it would be too late.

They would if their insurance covered it and they were not afraid of being punished.    A friend eventually saw someone and is doing very well (it was a decade plus ago and he got over his mid life crisis/depression), but was somewhat reluctant because of the gun issue.

What I am hearing in your posts is that people prize their guns over their mental health.  This is very disturbing and is a part of this country's problem.

The real problem is the stigmatization of mental health treatment and the complexities of how to pay for it.

Most of my friends outside of work are from the local gun club.  It's a much more diverse group that I met through work, an includes cops, doctors, construction professionals, computer weenies, an acoustic expert and a retired bomb squad consultant.   When I was sentenced to a couple of months back in center, and I needed a ride from the hospital at to/from my treatments, all it took was one email to the gun club mailing list and I had enough offer of rides to appointments to open up an Uber branch.

So, being deprived of one's own private arsenal because of mental illness is seen as "punishment"?  See, again, this mindset seems to be part of the problem in this country.  And I'm sure your gun club friends would be grateful if anyone in the group would willingly seek treatment if there was any chance at all that s/he'd use a gun to murder kids while in a disturbed state.  And I'm also sure that your friends would give you loads of support whether you needed dialysis or had become mentally ill.  Or, are you thinking that you would be stigmatized by them.

The Trump administration has promised to make sure that everyone will have access to affordable health care, and Congress (and the NRA) is always telling us that they will fix our mental health system, so, easy peasy lemon squeezy! 

edited to add:  I know the quotes are all screwed up, and my attempt to fix them made them worse.  Sorry, but I'm going to just leave it as it is because the Olympics are coming on, and I know you all are smart enough to figure out the quotes.

[Simon Dog]

Swimming pools are not "incorrectly used" to kill kids.

Actually, they are.   Any time a kid drowns and there are not sufficient adults with lifesaving training to deal with it immediately, is an incorrect use.  Unattended, a pool can be as dangerous as a loaded gun.    A good friend lost his best friend (4 leg variety) because he did not properly secure his pool.  Funny thing though - he has a perfect record with his guns.

What kind of "fun" does a person have with an AR-15"?  Exactly how does having a weapon like this serve as "recreation"?

If you have time, you can read the rulebook for one several sports that uses AR15s: https://uspsa.org/viewer/RifleShotgunMultigunRules.pdf
And, of course another: https://rulebooks.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/RuleBooks/HPR/hpr-book.pdf
There are several more.

Do you take it apart so that you can put it back together again?

Actually yes, but generally for cleaning or changing configurations.   The AR15 has more options and accessories than just about any other rifle, is one of the most versatile on the market, and accounts for something like 65% of new rifle sales.   Because of the accessories and options, it's been called the "Barbie for men".   Also, it's unique in that the design is off patent, and ARs are made by dozens of companies - ranging from utility grade to multi-thousand dollar competition rifles.

So, being deprived of one's own private arsenal because of mental illness is seen as "punishment"?

Yes.    Just because you do not value the RKBA does not mean others do not.   Look at it this way - if your hobby were skydiving, scuba diving, knitting or travel and the govt stepped in and took all your property used to enjoy that hobby (or put you on the no-fly list in case of travel) would you view it as punishment?

And I'm also sure that your friends would give you loads of support whether you needed dialysis or had become mentally ill.  Or, are you thinking that you would be stigmatized by them.

No stigma from any friends   I've been there for someone else on the mental side.    I'd be more concerned about the govt stepping in.

One shooter offered to spearhead a "find a kidney" campaign for me.  He lost interest when I gave him the name of my xplant coordinator and told him he could arrange for him to get tested at no charge.

[willowtreewren]

The primary purpose of swimming pools is NOT for killing and/or damage.

Also, as a pool owner, I am required to take steps to avoid the possibility of accidental drownings. This argument is a red herring.

To make it even more compelling, the third leading cause of death in children is by firearms. http://www.newsweek.com/guns-kids-third-leading-cause-death-627209

AR-15s and other assault-style firearms are not tools. They are toys that some people simply want. They are designed for killing as many people as possible in as short a time as possible. Enough is enough. I am not an advocate for elimination of gun ownership, but I want these kinds of weapons out of the hands of my fellow citizens.

[Simon Dog]

The primary purpose of swimming pools is NOT for killing and/or damage.

Also, as a pool owner, I am required to take steps to avoid the possibility of accidental drownings. This argument is a red herring

As a gun owner, I am required to take steps to avoid accidental shootings.   In fact, while the penalties for not taking certain pool precautions is civil/tort, the penalty in my state for leaving a gun unsecured is felony conviction with possible prison time.

Note "making guns the third-leading cause of death for children in America (behind illnesses and unintentional injuries like drownings or car crashes)" in the Newsweek article.

It does not matter what the purpose is.  Dead is dead - though a few dozen kids killed over a year spread out over the country is far less dramatic than a single incident.  We are allowing swimming pools to satisfy recreational needs even though they result in many kids drowning each year.  In other words, pools are simply toys that people want.

If you look at it as a logic puzzle, there is no difference between pools are ARs.   Items used for recreation that many people want, but which pose a risk of death.    The same logic used to ban ownership of ARs by the little, unimportant people also logically extends to the banning of private swimming pools not under government supervision.

I suppose I am doing my civic duty, as I am keeping a decent supply of ARs out the hands of those who might harm with them.

[Bill Peckham]

hahaha nothing to see here, let's argue about gun safety semantics instead. DiHydrogen Monoxide is a mence, wake up sheeple they are pumping it into our kids ...heh let's talk about anything except Trump's involvement with Russia not to mention his habit of paying for sex and paying to keep it quiet (aka willingness to be blackmailed).

Russia conspired against the United States to disrupt the US electoral system. The Trump campaign thought that was a great idea - "love it" ... it's likely worse than any of us imagine. Conspiracy against the United States is not a small matter.

One thing is for sure it is a witch hunt which hunt ... which Trump did which crime.

[Michael Murphy]

The answer Bill is he seems to have done them all. Plus arming teaches with handguns to go up against a moron and his ar15 is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. The chances against killing the moron are astronomical, while the guy with the long gun in almost every case will shoot and kill the pistol carrier.  The only time I remember item pistol winning is when two jihadists wore body armor and went to shoot up a cartoonest convention in Texas and a cop with a pistol shot them dead with head shoots.  I also remember the LA incident when two bank robbers in body armor shot up a score of LA police armed with hand guns and shotguns.

[Simon Dog]

Plus arming teaches with handguns to go up against a moron and his ar15 is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

Agreed, plus the dynamic of teachers carrying cop style (on the belt) would the change atmosphere, and present possibilities of a gun grab (I doubt teachers would want to carry a Level III retention holster).

My plan would be:

- A secure gun locker in every classroom, most would be empty
- Trained teachers would have access to an AR15; and vest with a distinctive top-secret color so responding police would recognize them
- One key/combo for all lockers, possessed only by weapons qualified teachers.
- Teachers would be subject to same weapons qualifications as police officers
- Which teachers were weapons qualified would remain secret

Just check Israel - how many killings have occurred because teachers are armed?

Of course, some will say "It's a good thing that football coach who responded and blocked bullets with his body was unarmed, otherwise, somebody could have been hurt."

Sometimes, one has to think outside the box.   Note that the vast majority of mass shootings occur in gun free zones.

[MooseMom]

The NRA needs to be taken down. 

Simon Dog, there is nothing that you have said in any post that would convince rational people that having an AR 15 makes any sense whatsoever.  Instead of sending me to some link, why do you, in your own words, tell me how a Barbie for Men is in any way like knitting or skydiving or travelling.  Any defense of this fetish is becoming more farfetched and mind boggling.

How did we come to believe that which bathroom transgender people want to use is potentially more harmful to children than who is carrying what kind of weaponry?  The right brays about porn and transgender bathrooms yet are strangely silent about babies being murdered with AR-15s.  And it is thinking like this that proves beyond all reasonable doubt that the rampant rationalization from NRA funded congresspeople and gun hobbyists is dangerously warped.  It is unacceptable.

Who is going to pay for the measures you propose, Simon Dog?  Our teachers are already woefully paid, yet you propose giving them yet more to do?  Are school districts going to double their pay?  Every time a plane either takes off or lands in a US airport, each passenger pays a 9/11 fee that is supposed to pay for extra security measures.  Are you going to propose that every time a student enters or leaves a classroom, a security fee will be applicable?  How much do you think it is going to cost to outfit every single school in this country in the manner you've outlined?  Oh, I have an idea.  Make the NRA pay for it ALL.

And this is not effing Israel!  That country has been subject to bombings by parties hostile to the Jewish State.  Who is hostile to schoolchildren?

Yeah, you're right.  Sometimes one does have to think outside of the box.  Note that the vast majority of mass shootings are perpetrated by white men.  Disarm them.

Oh, and one last thing.  What's to stop these murdering white guys from wearing body armor?  Are we then going to have to make sure that all of those armed teachers are supplied with armor piercing ammunition?  But that's not important, is it.  What's really important is that men have their Barbies.

[Michael Murphy]

I also notice that almost all of the recent shootings occur in states with virtually no gun control.

[Simon Dog]

Simon Dog, there is nothing that you have said in any post that would convince rational people that having an AR 15 makes any sense whatsoever.

It is the height to arrogance to declare that those who do not agree with you are not rational.   While I disagree with your position, I do not consider you irrational.

What's to stop these murdering white guys from wearing body armor?

This logic replies to any responder.   I doubt you would advise a police response would be ineffective and therefore should not be considered because the bad guy might wear armor.

I would recommend a quality illuminated scope like an ACOG to make head shots practical.   Also, most body armor is ineffective against 5.56mm rifle rounds, even if not rated armor piercing.

[Michael Murphy]

The first good solution I have seen to school shootings is by a high school student in I think Oregon he fabricated a small metal device that is attached to the bottom of a door and keeps the door from being opened.  Locks have been shot out people have been shot holding the door closed but with this device Doors can be locked from the inside until rescue arrives.  Every Clasroom in America needs one of these devices.  In the mean time crossbars should be put on every door to stop entry.

[Simon Dog]

There are quite a few companies making locking devices designed to secure classroom doors.  This one made news because "designed by a student" made for good copy, but there are many other equally effective choices already on the market.   This design is interesting because the device one has to put in place is very small, however, it requires pre-installation of a baseplate and bracket: https://nightlock.com/classroom-workplace-emergency-lockdown.

There are fire code issues to consider, plus http://idighardware.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Decoded-Oct15-Barricade-Ohio-and-Myths.pdf reports that there has never been an incident where an school shooter has breeched a locked door.   One also has to consider the possibility of a problem child using the device to barricade himself inside a classroom.    Shooting a lock out is not as easy as one would think, particularly on the high quality wood or steel doors used in commercial construction.

A better solution, possibly only practical in new construction, is centrally activated magnetic locks for a "one button lockdown".

[MooseMom]

Simon Dog, I find you to be extraordinarily rational, and that's why your increasingly indefensible position this type of weaponry (to the point that you are a one-issue voter) is so alarming.

[Simon Dog]

I could equally call your position "indefensible" (and most of my friends would agree), but I would consider that highly disrespectful so I won't.

Logic question:

1.  Assume a legal consumer product is responsible for tens of children's deaths per year
2.  That project is bought for the enjoyment of the purchaser or the purchaser's family.

Should that product be banned?
Should the answer to the question be different if the product was a gun vs some other dangerous if misused product?
What would you say to the families of kids killed because the product was not banned?
Would what you say be different if the product was a gun vs.  swimming pool?  Why?

[MooseMom]

Calling my position "indefensible" is not "highly disrespectful" at all.  That would be your opinion, and you are allowed that.  And you can call me arrogant.  Just don't do it with an AR-15.

Your defense seems to be that guns are "Barbies for Men".  I love that analogy and intend to use is widely.

Look at Marco Rubio's pitiful responses to questions at CNN's town hall last night.  "Indefensible" is the word that comes to mind.

There have been many, many "legal consumer products" that have been responsible for children's deaths and for the deaths of adults, too, and those products have been recalled and/or banned. 

Your logic questions assume that there is an equitable analogy between swimming pools and weapons of war.  White men don't take swimming pools into schools so that they can kill kids.  But I can tell you this much.  There is a growing problem with acid attacks in the UK, so Parliament is seeking to, and major retailers are banning sales of these legal products to people under 18.  It is easy to kill and/or maim people (mainly women for some reason) with guns and acids, but it's not so easy to do so with swimming pools (unless you seek to smother someone with a deflated one, I suppose, but that sounds like too much work).

To pose the idea that men use guns to murder people as being merely an example of "misusing a product" is, yes, I will say it, indefensible.  If you take that statement as being "highly disrespectful", so be it.

Why can we not at least ban this particular weapon?  Do men need this particular type of Barbie?

Can we at least ban the possession of armor piercing bullets?  Do men's Barbies need that kind of accessorizing?

[Simon Dog]

Can we at least ban the possession of armor piercing bullets? 

Already done.    Bullets designed for armor piercing have already been banned in the US.   The issue, however, is that rifle bullets by their very nature (typical speeds around 3000fps) will pierce virtually all NIJ rated Level I-III soft body armor, but not ceramic or metal level IV plate.

[Michael Murphy]

The suggestion of the Presidunce to arm teachers has a disquieting fact just released about it.  A fully trained Broward county Sheriff’s deputy was on duty at the latest shooting and he waited out side till the shooting stopped.  He has been suspended  and has resigned.  If a fully trained cop won’t go in with a hand gun I think it’s ludicrous to expect teachers to have enough training to deal with a active shooter.  Solution dems need to control enough state legislators to amend the constitution to remove the second amendment.   Control 38 states and the admendment could be passed.  Never mind vengeance if the NRA morons want to use the second admendment to give out hunting licenses for children.  Then the American people need to vote out of office all of the NRA employees who don’t work for the people but for the Gun club.  If the Republicans won’t support reasonable gun control then let’s just ban all guns by eliminating the second admendment.

[Simon Dog]

If a fully trained cop won’t go in with a hand gun I think it’s ludicrous to expect teachers to have enough training to deal with a active shooter.

There was an unarmed football coach who ran towards the shooting and blocked bullets with his considerable girth.   Good thing he was unarmed; someone might have been hurt  .  Oh wait, someone was hurt - he was killed.

Every in-duh-vidual will respond in his/her own way when fate asks him/her to put his life on the line.   Not everyone will be up to the task - badge or no badge.

Plus, if you note my suggestion, I think the emergency equipment lockers should have AR15s for teachers, plus a distinctive color vest so they can be recognized by responding officers.

We all know Fox is biased towards the right.  Its interesting to see that CNN was reportedly telling at least one student to "stick to the script" in it's so-called town hall meeting on gun control.

[willowtreewren]

We all know Fox is biased towards the right.  Its interesting to see that CNN was reportedly telling at least one student to "stick to the script" in it's so-called town hall meeting on gun control.

CNN reports that rather than this erroneous "news" the student in question wanted to give a speech instead of answering questions, so they decided not to invite him. The student reinterpreted that as being "scripted" and made that claim to the press. CNN claims to never script answers, but have protocols for inviting guests, such as limiting the amount of time they have to pontificate.